Countering 4231 for 18.2 – Bournemouth 2nd, 103 League Goals

[Mr U Rosler]

Originally tested on 18.1.3. Re- tested on 18.2. No changes required

 

I’ve been determined to get a 4231 going adhering to previously stated principles of semi direct attacking/counter attacking Football. This proved quite difficult as I’ve found attack duties in the wide attacking midfield areas pretty ineffective, yielding modest offensive returns whilst leaving you massively exposed defensively. At least within the framework I am trying to work to.

The flip side is using a support duty in the AML/R positions sees them put in an impressive defensive shift in this set up giving you 2 solid banks of 4 which contributed massively to our excellent defensive record.

Whilst that is all well and good we need to score goals, I’ve been pleasantly surprised with the goal scoring return which is based on ‘swarming’ counter attacks, basically everyone hammering it forward when we win the ball apart from our Centre Backs and Goal Keeper. 

Whilst the 433 is very effective, its kick & rush football with us hitting the channels early, the 4231 sees us playing more authentic football with our Striker often playing with his back to goal allowing our support players to join attacks.  

 

Result

 

 

Result based on 18.2

 

A good return and with sensible squad building and man-management you should be able to hit/exceed your targets playing some nice football.

I find it more satisfying to use than the 433 with more realistic football and a greater variety of goals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Evidence of the physical demands of the Tactic.

 

 

 

Interceptions are key, breaking down attacks and countering quickly.

 

 

No OI's

 

Set Fullbacks to take corners

4231 DM CA.fmf

 

Player Instructions; (additional)

GK - Distribute to Full Backs

FB - Shoot Less Often, Close Down Less

CD - None

VOL - Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder

IF - Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder, Sit Narrower

AMC - Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder, Close Down Much More

DLF - Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder, Close Down More

[Mr U Rosler]

Player Roles.

 

Attack

At times we have eight in attack including the Segunda Volante’s, this set up allows for both depth and width in attacks creating a variety of threats from across the team. Counter attacks aside (and there are lots of them), our Striker holds the ball and spreads play when our support players have transitioned into attacks.

Deep Lying Forward/Support

Goals are spread across the team so we are happy for our main Striker to operate deep at times and be a creative platform from which to build attacks. Whilst he will still run in behind its more important that he is comfortable with his back to goal and the ball at his feet spreading play as support arrives from midfield.

 

As such, Look for;

Composure

Passing

Vision

Flair

 

Inside Forwards/Support

The duty is significant here, on ‘support’ these guys are happy defending in their own half. These are not situated on the shoulder of the last defenders, they are often involved in early build up play in deep and central areas and therefore need the quality required to ‘play out’, often when under pressure, this often involves attacking space with the ball at their feet. (dribbling)

Once in advanced areas they can get down to the business of goal scoring and assisting.

I’d look for;

Passing

Composure

Work Rate

Dribbling

 

Attacking Midfielder/Attack

Envisioned as a ‘runner/disrupter’, breaking the lines in advanced central areas we need someone who can upset defences with his movement both with and without the ball. Often running beyond our Striker he carries both goal scoring and creating responsibilities. The ability to do the unexpected is valuable here.

I’d look for;

Off the ball

Flair

Dribbling

Acceleration 

 

 

Midfield

Nominally a ‘two’, in reality the Inside Forwards turn this into a ‘four’ when defending giving us 2 banks of four. Once we win back possession we are looking for an aggressive transition from all of these 4, the SV’s powering up the pitch centrally accompanied by the IF’s on flanks joining our AMC and Centre Forward to give is 6 attackers which becomes 8 when our full backs arrive.

 

Segunda Volante

The Segunda Volante is a new role and we now have an option for a truly dynamic Defensive Midfielder.

They essentially operate on the edge of each penalty area, your own when defending, your opponents when attacking. They get through a monstrous amount of work running between the boxes so you need very good athletes who are also technical enough to have a strong influence on attacking play.

You should see a lot of tackles won, interception, assists and even goals. Roy of the Rovers stuff!

Look for;

Work Rate

Stamina

Passing

Determination

 

Defence

During sustained attacks our opponent will generally only leave 1 player forward which allows us the luxury of keeping just our Keeper and 2 Centre Backs covering. When we are under pressure our defensive shape is 2 banks of 4 before becoming a 5/4 when our Attacking Midfielder has seen enough and drops in.

This makes us resilient and difficult to play through as indicated by our excellent defensive record.

  

Full Back/Attack

These were the final piece in the attacking puzzle, once I had established how unambitious our opponents were in only leaving 1 player forward much of the time, I knew I could push these guys up the pitch at which point the goals started to flow more steadily.

Like our Segunda Volante’s, these guys will be required to get up and down the pitch all day, again we seek strong athletes here. 

 

Look for;

Work Rate

Stamina

Positioning

Determination

 

Centre Backs

The Attacking Mentality results in a fairly high defensive line amongst other things, our Centre Backs can get isolated so there is no doubt that having them be quick of thought and foot can save you a lot of pain.

 

You do see them ‘mop up’ a lot of balls hit ‘over the top’, so having a quality pairing here will at least ensure that any passes played beyond the back line need to be of quality as general ‘hoofs’ will not threaten a decent Centre Back pairing unduly.  

 

Beyond that you need the usual attributes to deal with general defending and especially set pieces etc.

 

Look for;

Marking

Tackling

Anticipation

Positioning

 

 

Goal Keeper

Not much mystery in this role in terms of what is required. It is, however, worth considering our main vulnerabilities which are dealing with set pieces and giving up ‘one on one’ goal scoring opportunities.

I look for;

Aerial Ability

One on One’s

Reflexes

Handling

Command of Area

  

[iamcontrol]

To clone a post from the Oathkeeper thread, I'm six months into a new Newcastle save and 2nd in the league, only signed Gunnarson(CM) and Rajkovic(GK). It's producing plenty of goals, beating teams of all levels, smaller ones in the cup and the some big boys of the PL have all fallen to it.

Looking good in the early days! Nice work.

[gmulv]

big fan of your tactics - so I will be trying this one as well.  It's not too disimilar to one I have made myself - but your one seems a lot more solid at the back than mine.  So ill give it a go for sure

[tripoligate4]

hello mate, can you post the results of corner goals? i will appriciate it

[Mr U Rosler]

27 minutes ago, tripoligate4 said:

hello mate, can you post the results of corner goals? i will appriciate it

I'll dig them out later 👍

[FuSS]

Somebody you want to credit here Ros... 

[Mr U Rosler]

30 minutes ago, FuSS said:

Somebody you want to credit here Ros... 

Nope

I assume you're referring to your 4231.

Apart from the different Mentality, Team Shape, Team Instructions, Player Roles and Passing Range they're similar!

Room for more than one 4231 on the forum.

Besides, Burnum was helping me with an early version of this 2 weeks ago before your post.

 

 

[SKBrann]

Impressive results for sure!

Every year I try to make my own tactics, but I guess I`m not very good at it.

Could you please share som insight into how you go about making these tactics? 

Thanks for the upload.

[Shtazian]

First match using this tactic: Liverpool - Huddersfield 8-0..... not even close of being fluid.... looks good

[Shtazian]

How about match preparation and training?

[burnum]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Mr U Rosler:

Nope

I assume you're referring to your 4231.

Apart from the different Mentality, Team Shape, Team Instructions, Player Roles and Passing Range they're similar!

Room for more than one 4231 on the forum.

Besides, Burnum was helping me with an early version of this 2 weeks ago before your post.

 

 

I can confirm this. This tactical setup was in the making long before Fuss published his tactics.

I don't really see this as a competition. There's enough room for multiple 4231 tactics. I've tried both of your tactics (Knap's 4231 and Rösler's 4231) - they both work great and look similar on paper. But when you use them in-game, they both play differently and use different styles.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not picking sides here. We all have a common goal which is to create the best possible "realistic" tactic (back-four, one striker - like most teams seem to use these days) to combat all those cheesy 3-striker or strikerless formations. Let's try to create multiple versions of 4231/4321/4141/451 that all use a similar but somehow different style, thus everyone can pick from these formations and use the one that fits his individual team best...

[Mr U Rosler]

18 minutes ago, Shtazian said:

How about match preparation and training?

Once the tactic is fluid, I leave it on Balanced/Team Work all season.

 

[Mr U Rosler]

21 minutes ago, SKBrann said:

Impressive results for sure!

Every year I try to make my own tactics, but I guess I`m not very good at it.

Could you please share som insight into how you go about making these tactics? 

Thanks for the upload.

A lot of trial and error to be honest plus like anything, the more experience you have the quicker the process tends to be.

Basically, picking a formation and playing style, setting up a basic version of this then watching and tweaking until you see something 'out of the ordinary'.

This didn't take long with the 433 (due to the inherent vulnerability to 3 strikers in this ME), it took me over 3 weeks and probably 25+ hours to settle on the 4231.

Don't get me wrong, you can get a good, workable tactic much quicker than that but anything you post on here will get scrutinized and better be a step up from just a 'good' tactic.

I like to get 3 or 4 formations/tactics i'm happy with at the start of each release, i'll then play a couple of 40 season academy saves, swapping the tactics around when I get bored or a I get a batch of players that suit a particular formation.    

[tripoligate4]

still no upload for me

[SKBrann]

1 hour ago, Mr U Rosler said:

A lot of trial and error to be honest plus like anything, the more experience you have the quicker the process tends to be.

Basically, picking a formation and playing style, setting up a basic version of this then watching and tweaking until you see something 'out of the ordinary'.

This didn't take long with the 433 (due to the inherent vulnerability to 3 strikers in this ME), it took me over 3 weeks and probably 25+ hours to settle on the 4231.

Don't get me wrong, you can get a good, workable tactic much quicker than that but anything you post on here will get scrutinized and better be a step up from just a 'good' tactic.

I like to get 3 or 4 formations/tactics i'm happy with at the start of each release, i'll then play a couple of 40 season academy saves, swapping the tactics around when I get bored or a I get a batch of players that suit a particular formation.    

Thank you kindly sir. 

I will def. give this a go and hopefully get an understand as to why it works so well.

Would you say aggressive, high pressing styles work better in this years ME as opposed to sitting back/counter-style-ish?

[Mr U Rosler]

1 hour ago, SKBrann said:

Thank you kindly sir. 

I will def. give this a go and hopefully get an understand as to why it works so well.

Would you say aggressive, high pressing styles work better in this years ME as opposed to sitting back/counter-style-ish?

Yep, I find that to be the case in most editions of the game 👍

[Mr U Rosler]

Re-running the test following the update.

If anything, it seems to have improved the tactic. Although small sample size at the moment.

 

Looks like there are more goals around, we've scored 22 in our first 5 Premier League games.

It looks like the AI super powered half time team talks are back, we were 3 - 0  up at Huddersfield at half time and there was simply no stopping them in the 2nd half.

Looks like crazy AI overloading is back late game when they need a goal, expect late goals.

Overall, can't complain and this is looking good in the updated ME  

 

[iamcontrol]

First full season using this boyo complete.

Newcastle

 Signed Rajkovic, Gunnarsson and Vida

Used just this, no changes through full season. 

Finished 5th in the league (only 1 win in last 7 games dropped me out of the top 4 when I'd been all season)

Won the FA Cup.

Matt Ritchie comes in as PL Player of the year with 20 assists to his name.

Mitrovic and Gayle were equally effective as strikers (both got about half a season as Gayle got a bad injury just after christmas) both did well. Ayoze Perez outperformed Diame as the AMC.

Overall performances were excellent throughout the team, goals were well shared between the front 4, even ritchies mad number of assists was well kept up with by Atsu.

Its a good un this!

[Mr U Rosler]

Thanks iamcontrol. Did the poor end of season run coincide with the updated ME?

[adam_thomas]

Will you be testing this at lower league level Mr Rosler? Will be starting at Orient soon and had success with Everton with Oathbreaker

[Mr U Rosler]

12 minutes ago, adam_thomas said:

Will you be testing this at lower league level Mr Rosler? Will be starting at Orient soon and had success with Everton with Oathbreaker

Probably only when I go back to my main save, I've a couple more things to look at first.

Should be fine in lower leagues, pretty simple tactic really, press and tackle hard, pass into space and run after it as fast as you can type stuff  

[FortunaSC]

does this works after 18.2 update? 

[Mr U Rosler]

4 minutes ago, FortunaSC said:

does this works after 18.2 update? 

I posted some early results a few posts up. So far, so good but can't really say until i've played a full season.

[FortunaSC]

ok i will give it a go too

 

[iamcontrol]

1 hour ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Thanks iamcontrol. Did the poor end of season run coincide with the updated ME?

I think so yeah although there were also some good wins/creditable draws mixed in there. Absolutely mullered top of the league by a mile Chelsea and won the FA Cup final against Spurs with room to spare, I'll give it some more time over the weekend if I don't get the chance tonight and see how its looking.

[christrott79]

Nice tactic this. 

Just finished first half of season with Spurs on FM Touch 18.2. 

Unbeaten over first 19 premier league games with 49 points. 

👍

[robbo877]

 @Mr U Rosler Hi mate - first of all, great tactic.

 

I've been looking for a decent and realistic 4-2-3-1 for a while. I hate all this 3 striker 'game the match engine' type stuff but I don't have the inclination to fiddle with tactics and go through the trial and error process you have, so much appreciated.

I've been using it with WBA without any real tweaks, it fits the team well I think:

 

GK Foster

RB Ter Avest (signing)

LB Gibbs

CB Evans

CB Dawson

 

VOL Livermore

VOL Hendrix (signing)

RAM Phillips

CAM Morrison

LAM Chadli

 

ST Rondon

 

We're in 6th coming towards the end of the season which I'm really pleased with. With some good summer signings I'm hoping to be able to push for Champions League qualification after season 2.

I have a couple of things I want your opinion on:

- Chadli is not performing. He is arguably my best player but his stats and performances have been underwhelming. You alluded to issues with the wide players contributing in attacking areas and I think I'm seeing that - he's putting a shift in defensively but just not scoring or creating many goals... any thoughts on that? Phillips seems to be performing much better which is interesting cause he's a right footed winger playing the IF role on the right and doesn't have as good stats as Chadli... all very puzzling.

- Any thoughts on how to setup against teams a LOT better than you? Being WBA, we have a decent portion of games against better opposition. I'm really struggling with the City/Spurs/Chelsea type of games and just getting battered. I've tried going in with no tweaks, tried counter/defend but nothing seems to work too well. Don't get me wrong, i expect to get beat in most of these games but I haven't really competed with any of the top teams yet. Just wondered if you had any thoughts on that..

[Mr U Rosler]

Hi Robbo,

Not overly familiar with West Brom but i'd suspect Chadli is not quick enough to flourish in the Left Attacking Midfield role. 

Philips doesn't waste his ability in areas that don't matter, he's a good crosser, dribbler and that little bit quicker than Chadli, 15 acceleration vs 13 would be significant here.

Chadli is a nice two-footed passer and a good finisher, i'd play him in the AMC role ahead of Morrison.

Looks like you'll need an AML, before buying anyone i'd give Oliver Burke some games, strong, fast, good crosser and he looks like he could kick on. 

[Mr U Rosler]

Re big teams, I go toe to toe with them. At Home i'm doing well, Away at 'elite' teams are tough, even with Man City.

I don't think any amount of tweaking will fix that, as West Brom, might as well view it as a free hit and hope you get lucky. 

[Mr U Rosler]

A few more games under the new ME, few more goals at both ends but still going well and tracking for a good finish.

Pretty satisfied its still a solid tactic after the update.

 

 

 

[robbo877]

2 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Hi Robbo,

Not overly familiar with West Brom but i'd suspect Chadli is not quick enough to flourish in the Left Attacking Midfield role. 

Philips doesn't waste his ability in areas that don't matter, he's a good crosser, dribbler and that little bit quicker than Chadli, 15 acceleration vs 13 would be significant here.

Chadli is a nice two-footed passer and a good finisher, i'd play him in the AMC role ahead of Morrison.

Looks like you'll need an AML, before buying anyone i'd give Oliver Burke some games, strong, fast, good crosser and he looks like he could kick on. 

 

Thanks for the speedy reply mate. 

 

Think you may be right about the pace. I did try him centrally for a couple of games but might give him a longer run and adjust training - I'm going to be looking to replace Morrison in the summer so would be ideal if I had a ready made replacement in the club.

 

Burke is already in and around the first time (along with Sam Fied) and I have high hopes for him.

[robbo877]

Wow... I think the FM gods have been watching this thread.

 

Talk about addressing both issues... 

[robbo877]

Looks like we're going to finish 6th first season with WBA - really pleased with that. Definitely the best tactic I've used so far, realistic shape and build up play and scores some lovely goals particularly on the counter.

 

I have a couple of tweaks that may be useful for other people using weaker teams like me...

 

The formations I struggled against were anything with 2 up top (other than the big boys), notably the 4-4-2, Bournemouth gave me real problems. The main problem was on the 'counter counter' if you get what I mean, after our attack had broken down and we often had 8 players ahead of the ball. As mentioned the reason this formation works so well is most teams only leave 1 up top, giving you 2v1. Well 4-4-2 obviously meant we often had 2v2 at the back when our counters broke down and conceded several goals like that.

 

What I did was drop the 2nd VOL to be a DM(d), Jake Livermore in my case. This meant he covered laterally in front of the 2 CBs which worked brilliantly because he could:

 

a) cover the long ball up to the 2 strikers

b) cover laterally for either FB if they broke down the wings

c) most importantly just gave us another body so it was 3v2 on their counter

 

This has also become my go to tweak for tougher away games and holding onto leads later in games.

 

Anyway, thumbs up @Mr U Rosler you've done great work here.

[Carninho]

Do you look to add any specific PPM's ?

I tried this tactic out at the weekend but i screwed up my manager reputation at the start when creating my profile so i didnt last too long before i lost the dressing room (even though we were meeting our season objectives...). I did see some great results and many high scoring games, so the defensive side of things wasnt great. Again it didn't help that the players had no confidence in me from the start. I'll be starting over tonight with Forest. 

On a side note, in my other save I've had great success with Oathkeeper at Monopoli

[Mr U Rosler]

1 hour ago, Carninho said:

Do you look to add any specific PPM's ?

I tried this tactic out at the weekend but i screwed up my manager reputation at the start when creating my profile so i didnt last too long before i lost the dressing room (even though we were meeting our season objectives...). I did see some great results and many high scoring games, so the defensive side of things wasnt great. Again it didn't help that the players had no confidence in me from the start. I'll be starting over tonight with Forest. 

On a side note, in my other save I've had great success with Oathkeeper at Monopoli

Not quite finished by re-test of Bournemouth under the new patch, there are more goals at both ends, won't really be able to call it defensively solid anymore, but its not too bad at the back, we are scoring more and most importantly we are heading towards a similar points tally so its perfectly usable.

I don't focus on PPM's other than making sure they don't directly conflict with something i'm doing in the tactic.  

[christrott79]

Great 1st season with Spurs, won league with 90 points.

Do you think it would be possible to move one of the DM’s into a CM role?

[Mr U Rosler]

Thanks Chris

 

Could move a DM to CM, if you are happy committing another player forward might be better off changing one of Segundo Volante's to attack duty. 

[Coolio5]

On 12/13/2017 at 10:49, Mr U Rosler said:

I’ve been determined to get a 4231 going adhering to previously stated principles of semi direct attacking/counter attacking Football. This proved quite difficult as I’ve found attack duties in the wide attacking midfield areas pretty ineffective, yielding modest offensive returns whilst leaving you massively exposed defensively. At least within the framework I am trying to work to.

The flip side is using a support duty in the AML/R positions sees them put in an impressive defensive shift in this set up giving you 2 solid banks of 4 which contributed massively to our excellent defensive record.

Whilst that is all well and good we need to score goals, I’ve been pleasantly surprised with the goal scoring return which is based on ‘swarming’ counter attacks, basically everyone hammering it forward when we win the ball apart from our Centre Backs and Goal Keeper. 

Whilst the 433 is very effective, its kick & rush football with us hitting the channels early, the 4231 sees us playing more authentic football with our Striker often playing with his back to goal allowing our support players to join attacks.  

 

Result

 

 

After opening up with 6 straight league wins, I was waiting for the wheels to come off, it never really happened. 

 

A good return and with sensible squad building and man-management you should be able to hit/exceed your targets playing some nice football.

I find it more satisfying to use than the 433 with more realistic football and a greater variety of goals.

 

 

Solid defence. Restricting our opponents to 1 long shot all game.

 

 

Evidence of the physical demands of the Tactic.

 

 

 

Interceptions are key, breaking down attacks and countering quickly.

 

 

No OI's

 

Set Fullbacks to take corners

4231 DM CA.fmf

what PI's do you use? The download doesnt work with 18.2. Thanks!

[christrott79]

25 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Thanks Chris

 

Could move a DM to CM, if you are happy committing another player forward might be better off changing one of Segundo Volante's to attack duty. 

What central midfield role would you suggest that would keep the balance of the tactic as close as can be?

[Mr U Rosler]

2 hours ago, Coolio5 said:

what PI's do you use? The download doesnt work with 18.2. Thanks!

No OI's. Did you mean PI's?

Should work fine, i've attached it below.

 

 

4231 DM CA.fmf

[Mr U Rosler]

59 minutes ago, christrott79 said:

What central midfield role would you suggest that would keep the balance of the tactic as close as can be?

Probably Central Midfield/Support.

[christrott79]

1 minute ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Probably Central Midfield/Support.

Cool thanks, will give that a whirl.

[Mr U Rosler]

Updated opening post with 18.2 result (more goals, both ends).

Added player Instructions for Touch players.

[Stevedox]

Looking forward to giving this a whirl....been using 433 and or oathbreaker and it really doesn't feel like authentic football and more a cheat tactic. So hoping to start a new saves and buy some wingers

[pinardier8282]

Tactic change?

[Mr U Rosler]

2 hours ago, pinardier8282 said:

Tactic change?

Nope, same tactic, just tested on latest match engine.

[TheDentalist]

Tactic looks very encouraging so far with my Preston side. 16 goals in my first four games (W3 D1) and dominating them all.

[Mr U Rosler]

Started my main save now, looking good non-league 

 

[Gauvner]

Alright Rosler! 

Just a quick question. When leading or trying to keep a result would you recommend changing to a more defensive mentality or would you say just stick with it. 

 

Purely because i seem to not be able to keep a lead regardless of what i say to the players during the match. It could be the ME but just wanted your opinion. 

 

Oh Also using this tactic got me promoted with Chesterfield in the first season, So Thanks!