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shawn_strat

View-only league vs Playable

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I just saw this tweet: https://twitter.com/fmscout/status/933327526545502209/photo/1

Do players playing in view-only leagues develop normally as a player would in a playable league?

If I loan a player to a team in a view-only league will he develop at the same rate as he would in a playable league?

 

I would like to know because making every league view-only would allow a greater number of players to be available.

Thanks!

Shawn

Montreal, Canada

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Your query inspired me into a lil bit of research, because I would also like to know the answer to that question.

So, managing Olympiacos in FM17, my aim was to compare a player loaned out in a View-Only league team vs a player loaned out in a Playable league team vs a player from my club. Unfortunately, from the 90 leagues in my save, the 75 are playable and only 15 are in view-only mode. The worst part is that the players I've found for the comparison are in a league (Cyprian) that is completely off in my save. But I guess, it's not so bad at the end of day, because I'm gonna compare a player loaned out in an Off league team vs a player loaned out in a Playable league team vs a player from my club.
In order to make the comparison more fair, I tried (with the help of Genie Scout) to find players similar in CA and after that, similar in age. I am comparing their increase in CA and offer the percentage(%) increase.
I am putting spoilers because CA and PA are revealed. Players in this colour are loaned out in an Off league team, and players in this colour are loaned out in a Playable league team. The others are players from my club.

(All players are loaned out from my club)


The first comparison is from season 2016-2017, (from 2016.07.30 till 2017.04.30):

Spoiler

5a162d45c96b0_1stcomparison.thumb.PNG.5f4749cabe995aadf427105c0d8091c0.PNG

The players and their profiles from both FM and Genie Scout (1st image=2016.07.30, 2nd image=till 2017.04.30):

Spoiler

Kostas Plegas:
Kostas_Plegas_Profile-2016.07.30.pngKostas_Plegas_Profile-2017.04.30.png
Kostas_Plegas_Profile-2016.07.30.jpgKostas_Plegas_Profile-2017.04.30.jpg

Kostas Megaritis:
Kostas_Megaritis_Profile-2016.07.30.pngKostas_Megaritis_Profile-2017.04.30.png
Kostas_Megaritis_Profile-2016.07.30.jpgKostas_Megaritis_Profile-2017.04.30.jpg

Kostas Kipouros:
Kostas_Kipouros_Profile-2016.07.30.pngKostas_Kipouros_Profile-2017.04.30.png
Kostas_Kipouros_Profile-2016.07.30.jpgKostas_Kipouros_Profile-2017.04.30.jpg


The second comparison is from season 2017-2018, (from 2017.07.29 till 2018.04.28):

Spoiler

5a16da97844d4_2ndcomparison.thumb.PNG.2ec78aff6be0381a266a16a2591abded.PNG

The players and their profiles from both FM and Genie Scout (1st image=2017.07.29, 2nd image=till 2018.04.28):

Spoiler

Andreas Gianniotis:
Andreas_Gianniotis_Profile-2017.07.29.pnAndreas_Gianniotis_Profile-2018.04.28.pn
Andreas_Gianniotis_Profile-2017.07.29.jpAndreas_Gianniotis_Profile-2018.04.28.jp

Lefteris Choutesiotis:
Lefteris_Choutesiotis_Profile-2017.07.29Lefteris_Choutesiotis_Profile-2018.04.28
Lefteris_Choutesiotis_Profile-2017.07.29Lefteris_Choutesiotis_Profile-2018.04.28

Dimitris Skafidas:
Dimitris_Skafidas_Profile-2017.07.29.pngDimitris_Skafidas_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Dimitris_Skafidas_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgDimitris_Skafidas_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg


The third comparison is again from season 2017-2018, (from 2017.07.29 till 2018.04.28):

Spoiler

5a16daa4d36ae_3rdcomparison.thumb.PNG.1dd0425f540299c9d7b451cfd3188c21.PNG

The players and their profiles from both FM and Genie Scout (1st image=2017.07.29, 2nd image=till 2018.04.28):

Spoiler

Kostas Tsimikas:
Kostas_Tsimikas_Profile-2017.07.29.pngKostas_Tsimikas_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Kostas_Tsimikas_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgKostas_Tsimikas_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Antonis Fouasis:
Antonis_Fouasis_Profile-2017.07.29.pngAntonis_Fouasis_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Antonis_Fouasis_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgAntonis_Fouasis_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Stathis Labrou:
Stathis_Labrou_Profile-2017.07.29.pngStathis_Labrou_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Stathis_Labrou_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgStathis_Labrou_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Spyros Natsos:
Spyros_Natsos_Profile-2017.07.29.pngSpyros_Natsos_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Spyros_Natsos_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgSpyros_Natsos_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg


The fourth comparison is again from season 2017-2018, (from 2017.07.29 till 2018.04.28):

Spoiler

5a16db8a27b79_4thcomparison.thumb.PNG.90c8625f235f763d8f9014f961985b38.PNG

The players and their profiles from both FM and Genie Scout (1st image=2017.07.29, 2nd image=till 2018.04.28):

Spoiler

Qazim Laci:
Qazim_Laci_Profile-2017.07.29.pngQazim_Laci_Profile-2018.04.28.pngQazim_Laci_Profile-_History-2018.04.28.p
Qazim_Laci_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgQazim_Laci_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Kostas Megaritis:
Kostas_Megaritis_Profile-2017.07.29.pngKostas_Megaritis_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Kostas_Megaritis_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgKostas_Megaritis_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Ardit Toli:
Ardit_Toli_Profile-2017.07.29.pngArdit_Toli_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Ardit_Toli_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgArdit_Toli_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Kostas Panagou:
Kostas_Panagou_Profile-2017.07.29.pngKostas_Panagou_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Kostas_Panagou_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgKostas_Panagou_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Kostas Kipouros:
Kostas_Kipouros_Profile-2017.07.29.pngKostas_Kipouros_Profile-2018.04.28.png
Kostas_Kipouros_Profile-2017.07.29.jpgKostas_Kipouros_Profile-2018.04.28.jpg

Thanasis Giannarakis:
Thanasis_Giannarakis_Profile-2017.07.29.Thanasis_Giannarakis_Profile-2018.04.28.
Thanasis_Giannarakis_Profile-2017.07.29.Thanasis_Giannarakis_Profile-2018.04.28.


The whole comparison:

Spoiler

5a16db9575544_wholecomparison.thumb.PNG.19dbea192a8b59071527bf6611175ca3.PNG

 


Conclusion:

I (and I guess many people here) was under the impression that, players who play in a league that is Off, don't have the same development than players in a league which is Playable, and that View-Only leagues offer better development than a league which is completely off. Kinda like this: Playable>View Only>Off
But what we see, is that the development is kinda the same. What is not so good though, is the development the AI does in all types of leagues. If those players were controlled by the user, we would have seen more increase in CA. Not huge difference, but still.
Yes, the sample is not that big and it's not really a fair comparison. A more fair comparison would be to play through a year with Player X, Y, Z at your club, and then the same year from the beginning with those players loaned out to a View-Only or Off league. And compare their development. And do that more than one time. But I've got no intention of doing something like that :D.

So, to answer your question, no, don't be afraid to loan players out to View-Only league teams, because the development is kinda the same as loaning them out to a Playable league team. It's kinda the same even in Off league teams.

Edited by ilkork
correct dates in comparisons 2, 3, 4 and whole

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Yes, development should be equal across playable and non-playable leagues. Of course with the new newer progression model there is still the chance for plenty of randomness here which will mean variation between the two no matter the set up.

@ilkork - As you say yourself, we need to be careful drawing incomplete conclusions from imperfect tests. If I understand your second concluding point correctly you are stating that the User would develop these players better than the AI. I would offer that, even if true, it is perhaps not necessarily the AI at fault here but the User. Whilst there still certainly AI development improvements to be made, the User often wilfully exploits the progression system in order to ensure maximum possible returns, whereas the AI often acts in a much more realistic, non-omniscient fashion. Perhaps in some situations the ideal would be the User acting more like the AI than the other way around in order to ensure more realistic and consistent outcomes.

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1 hour ago, Seb Wassell said:

@ilkork - As you say yourself, we need to be careful drawing incomplete conclusions from imperfect tests.

Yes, my test was almost imperfect. I'm planning to do a new one and post it here when I'll have the time. Comparing loanees from other teams with the help of Genie Scout. There are about 120k players in total in that save, so I think I'll find many with similar characteristics to compare. Although I do believe that the conclusion will be the same, similar development in playable and non-playable leagues.
 

1 hour ago, Seb Wassell said:

If I understand your second concluding point correctly you are stating that the User would develop these players better than the AI.

Yes, correct. Sorry for my english, I'm Greek and not that fluent.
It's true that we sometimes exploit the progression system. But I'm wondering, If we can do that, can't you (the coders/devs at SI) program the machine to do something similar? For example, we know that, with Balanced training throughout the year, setting a Role Training for our player is the right thing to do, so that he will improve in the "important" attributes. Is the AI doing something similar? Is the AI using the tutoring system? Is the AI using PPM training in order to promote a particular style of football?
I would really appreciate an answer, because I was wondering about these things for some time now.

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35 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Yes, my test was almost imperfect. I'm planning to do a new one and post it here when I'll have the time. Comparing loanees from other teams with the help of Genie Scout. There are about 120k players in total in that save, so I think I'll find many with similar characteristics to compare. Although I do believe that the conclusion will be the same, similar development in playable and non-playable leagues.

This is something we monitor internally. Playable and non-playable development curves are indeed roughly equal.

35 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Yes, correct. Sorry for my english, I'm Greek and not that fluent.
It's true that we sometimes exploit the progression system. But I'm wondering, If we can do that, can't you (the coders/devs at SI) program the machine to do something similar? For example, we know that, with Balanced training throughout the year, setting a Role Training for our player is the right thing to do, so that he will improve in the "important" attributes. Is the AI doing something similar? Is the AI using the tutoring system? Is the AI using PPM training in order to promote a particular style of football?
I would really appreciate an answer, because I was wondering about these things for some time now.

No need to apologies for the English, it's great.

35 minutes ago, ilkork said:

setting a Role Training for our player is the right thing to do, so that he will improve in the "important" attributes. Is the AI doing something similar?

Yes.

35 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Is the AI using the tutoring system?

Yes.

35 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Is the AI using PPM training in order to promote a particular style of football?

Yes.

You don't give us or the AI enough credit  ;)

However, Users often exploit these systems rather than "use" them. The AI cannot look up a personality guide online for example, nor would it be realistic for it or a real life manager to do so.

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30 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:
1 hour ago, ilkork said:

Is the AI using the tutoring system?

Yes.

Does the AI tutor based on similarity of personality, similar to the explanation given when the assistant manager recommends a tutor and tutee, and not to improve ambition, determination or professionalism?

 

2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

I would offer that, even if true, it is perhaps not necessarily the AI at fault here but the User. Whilst there still certainly AI development improvements to be made, the User often wilfully exploits the progression system in order to ensure maximum possible returns, whereas the AI often acts in a much more realistic, non-omniscient fashion.

Using an ingame feature is hardly exploiting and that the player is too good is never an adequate defense.

If you have to trade the proficiency of the AI with realism then your underlying framework is flawed.

Perhaps personality should not be visible to the player when it seems to confer such a great advantage?

 

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22 minutes ago, gxL2o62DcgGQ2RNW said:

Using an ingame feature is hardly exploiting and that the player is too good is never an adequate defense.

If you have to trade the proficiency of the AI with realism then your underlying framework is flawed.

Perhaps personality should not be visible to the player when it seems to confer such a great advantage?

You misunderstand me, possibly deliberately so. I stated above that there is still certainly room for AI improvement, something we look to achieve each year, any help in identifying areas in which this can be accomplished is much appreciated. I was not referring to the personality listed on the player's profile, rather the factors that make up this personality, for example Ambition and Professionalism, which are not displayed as an absolute value anywhere in game but can be found by searching outside of game. That is an example of how the User can gain an unfair and unrealistic advantage over the AI. I would not agree that allowing the AI to exploit the same system is an appropriate response, nor would I agree that the User taking advantage of outside agents to enable better in game performance is an example of the User being "too good", it is simply an example of operating outside of the realms of both the established realism of the game and the realistic capabilities of a manager, AI or User, within the game. I have no issue with Users using outside tools to influence their in game results, in fact I would encourage it in most circumstances, but I do not think it is fair to hold this up as an example of why the User is "better" than the AI.

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Doesn't really take out of game knowledge to infer Professional/Fairly Professional players have high professionalism, likewise for Determined/Fairly Determined/Ambitious/Fairly Ambitious.

Does the AI tutor based on similarity of personality, similar to the explanation given when the assistant manager recommends a tutor and tutee, or does it seek to improve ambition, determination or professionalism? How aware is it that some personalities are more desirable than others?

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4 minutes ago, gxL2o62DcgGQ2RNW said:

Doesn't really take out of game knowledge to infer Professional/Fairly Professional players have high professionalism, likewise for Determined/Fairly Determined/Ambitious/Fairly Ambitious.

Again I think you are deliberately simplifying in order to make your point. What about the other personalities, such as Resolute, Resilient, Spirited, Light Hearted, Loyal, Fairly Sporting, etc.?

6 minutes ago, gxL2o62DcgGQ2RNW said:

Does the AI tutor based on similarity of personality, similar to the explanation given when the assistant manager recommends a tutor and tutee, or does it seek to improve ambition, determination or professionalism? How aware is it that some personalities are more desirable than others?

The AI uses the same system that is used for AM recommendations, relative to that particular staff member's/manager's abilities.

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2 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Again I think you are deliberately simplifying in order to make your point.

And I could think you are deliberately obfuscating. Shall we not remain charitable?

11 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

What about the other personalities, such as Resolute, Resilient, Spirited, Light Hearted, Loyal, Fairly Sporting, etc.?

Granted, however given the importance of ambition, determination and professionalism to development I would consider those I mentioned the more important ones, and certainly the ones most easily inferred.

I suppose you could argue that even knowing that those are important to development is outside information, but being told the AI does not even know that would only leave me so much more disappointed.

4 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

The AI uses the same system that is used for AM recommendations, relative to that particular staff member's/manager's abilities.

In that case I can only repeat what I wrote previously. Perhaps personality should not be visible to the player when it seems to confer such a great advantage?

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14 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

You don't give us or the AI enough credit  ;)

However, Users often exploit these systems rather than "use" them. The AI cannot look up a personality guide online for example, nor would it be realistic for it or a real life manager to do so.

I'm so relieved that it's "Yes" everywhere :D.
Thank you very much for answering, appreciate this :thup:.

13 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

I stated above that there is still certainly room for AI improvement, something we look to achieve each year, any help in identifying areas in which this can be accomplished is much appreciated.

Hmm, that would require some thinking.
Perhaps, program the AI to make the most out of scouting? If it's not already doing something like that?
For example, the scouting team of a particular AI club, is analyzing player development from 3*-5* reputation clubs, with no intention of signing those players, only so to understand their personality.
Make this as a 6-month, 9-month or 12-month period of research, and once it comes up with results, the AI can use them to their advantage. I don't know what kind or results those could be, let SI take charge of it.
It could also be linked with Knowledge somehow, that could be transferred to the particular scouts, manager and am, should they move clubs.

A question that could possibly arise from that, would be "if the AI is analyzing other AI player development, how can they come up with results that could benefit them, if the AI is not that intelligent in the first place"?
Well, make clubs with higher reputation to have better player development from default (because they have better staff than lower reputation teams).
You could even add a new attribute for all clubs, named "Player Development". The higher it is, the better knowledge of a player's "Personality/Media Handling Type" they have.


Tbh, we (the forum members) can't really suggest for improvements in AI, because we don't know what is it doing in the first place and/or under the hood.
If we make suggestions and you answers always are "It's already doing that"... You understand :D.

Edited by ilkork

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On 11/23/2017 at 04:43, Seb Wassell said:

Yes, development should be equal across playable and non-playable leagues.

Apologies if I am being obtuse, but I believe that you are lumping both "view-only" leagues and "non-loaded" leagues together in "non-playable" leagues, correct?  So if I loan a player to a particular team, his development is completely independent of whether the team is in a league that I have loaded as "playable," a league that I have loaded as "view only," or a league that I have not loaded?

Thank you for the clarification.

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12 hours ago, kev_portland said:

Apologies if I am being obtuse, but I believe that you are lumping both "view-only" leagues and "non-loaded" leagues together in "non-playable" leagues, correct?  So if I loan a player to a particular team, his development is completely independent of whether the team is in a league that I have loaded as "playable," a league that I have loaded as "view only," or a league that I have not loaded?

Thank you for the clarification.

There's not a massive difference between non-playable and view only in this situation. The main difference is whether the full match engine (playable) or quick match engine (view only/non-playable) is used. Of course the aim is for there to be no discernible difference between the two when it comes to player development.

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On 24/11/2017 at 05:38, ilkork said:

I'm so relieved that it's "Yes" everywhere :D.
Thank you very much for answering, appreciate this :thup:.

:thup:

On 24/11/2017 at 05:38, ilkork said:

Tbh, we (the forum members) can't really suggest for improvements in AI, because we don't know what is it doing in the first place and/or under the hood.
If we make suggestions and you answers always are "It's already doing that"... You understand :D.

A fair point. Although I ask as we don't just want to shut you down with a "yes"/"no", some great feature requests often come from forum discussions.

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@Seb Wassell

Why is it not possible to add leagues during a save as view only to the game? Is there a technical reason?

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8 minutes ago, KUBI said:

@Seb Wassell

Why is it not possible to add leagues during a save as view only to the game? Is there a technical reason?

Unfortunately I am not qualified to answer this one, certainly a valid FR though.

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On 23/11/2017 at 13:43, Seb Wassell said:

Yes, development should be equal across playable and non-playable leagues. Of course with the new newer progression model there is still the chance for plenty of randomness here which will mean variation between the two no matter the set up.

@ilkork - As you say yourself, we need to be careful drawing incomplete conclusions from imperfect tests. If I understand your second concluding point correctly you are stating that the User would develop these players better than the AI. I would offer that, even if true, it is perhaps not necessarily the AI at fault here but the User. Whilst there still certainly AI development improvements to be made, the User often wilfully exploits the progression system in order to ensure maximum possible returns, whereas the AI often acts in a much more realistic, non-omniscient fashion. Perhaps in some situations the ideal would be the User acting more like the AI than the other way around in order to ensure more realistic and consistent outcomes.

Is it still the same in FM19 ??

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18 minutes ago, LukasZ_VCF said:

Is it still the same in FM19 ??

Yes.

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13 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Yes.

How it works in non playable leagues? There are no injuries ? And if I will set first team or key player they will develop as they will play all games ?

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Is there a difference between "view-only", "not loaded" and "not playable"? My terminology may be off. Not loaded would mean like if I did not load the english nation. Not playable means like I can't play in Gibraltar at all (without mods).

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View only are not playable. The game shows you results and league tables, cups etc but you can't manage there.

Not loaded means just that. You can't see anything other than clubs, their players and their 'made up' stats.

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