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Sticx

Need some help with my 4-3-3

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So here is my tactic I am using. My theories behind it are that the F9 should drop deep, creating space for the two IF's to make runs into. WB's will overlap with the IF's, also creating space. In the midfield, my AP-A will join the attack and play risky passes to the front 3. I have a RPM sitting deeper allowing a safe pass to recycle possession when needed. The HB will protect the back line and contribute in the final third as a deeper option. I have my left WB on defend to provide some cover and help protect against fast transitions the other way. FInally, a SK to help clean up through balls that get behind our high line. I'm playing very fluid because I am closing down as much as possible and I want my team to press and attack/defend as a unit. 

My main issues so far are a lack of creating CCC's, and our away from home form. I realize I am playing a risky formation that can get countered on if we make a bad turnover, but the flip side is I feel that we should be creating a lot more danger in the attack. I can live with giving up the odd goal from a counter if we are playing good football and creating chances, but right now we just aren't, especially away from home.

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Our home and away results so far this year shows quite a start contrast. I really don't see why we are doing well at home, but really bad away. I understand hostile environments, but my team shouldn't forget how to play football away from home. 

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Latest result away at Everton. We gave up a ton of chances mostly from counters while not creating many of our own. I understand the dangers of a high line, but with playing the offside trap, a sweeper keeper behind them mopping up through balls, I feel like we really shoudn't be allowing this many chances. 

So I realize I'm not a tactics guru or anything and I'm sure I'm doing some things here that might not be ideal, but I've tried tweaking things as the season went along but without much results. So if you guys have any suggestions I would love to hear them. Thanks!

 

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Edited by Sticx

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15 hours ago, Sticx said:

So here is my tactic I am using. My theories behind it are that the F9 should drop deep, creating space for the two IF's to make runs into. WB's will overlap with the IF's, also creating space. In the midfield, my AP-A will join the attack and play risky passes to the front 3. I have a RPM sitting deeper allowing a safe pass to recycle possession when needed. The HB will protect the back line and contribute in the final third as a deeper option. I have my left WB on defend to provide some cover and help protect against fast transitions the other way. FInally, a SK to help clean up through balls that get behind our high line. I'm playing very fluid because I am closing down as much as possible and I want my team to press and attack/defend as a unit. 

My main issues so far are a lack of creating CCC's, and our away from home form. I realize I am playing a risky formation that can get countered on if we make a bad turnover, but the flip side is I feel that we should be creating a lot more danger in the attack. I can live with giving up the odd goal from a counter if we are playing good football and creating chances, but right now we just aren't, especially away from home.

     

Our home and away results so far this year shows quite a start contrast. I really don't see why we are doing well at home, but really bad away. I understand hostile environments, but my team shouldn't forget how to play football away from home. 

 

Latest result away at Everton. We gave up a ton of chances mostly from counters while not creating many of our own. I understand the dangers of a high line, but with playing the offside trap, a sweeper keeper behind them mopping up through balls, I feel like we really shoudn't be allowing this many chances. 

So I realize I'm not a tactics guru or anything and I'm sure I'm doing some things here that might not be ideal, but I've tried tweaking things as the season went along but without much results. So if you guys have any suggestions I would love to hear them. Thanks!

1) How can WB's with defense/support mentality overlap IF with attaking mentality?

2) The RPM will not sit deep and reclycle possession. In fact the RPM will pick up the ball deep, and run with it untill opponent area. 

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The glaring thing for me is the AP RPM combo in midfield. At home this may just about work because teams won't be quite as expansive against you. However playing away from home teams are going to come out and try to play. The AP will move forward into 'the hole' to try and fashion chances whilst the RPM will move around trying to get in the ball wherever possible. When he does pick it up he will drive forward. This will leave you pretty light in the central midfield area. 

 

My first suggestion would be when away from home try tweaking one of the mc roles to be a little more conservative. If you need to keep the playmaking aspect go for a DPM support. I've had great success with the Carrilero as a shuttler which may also help.

 

Also agree with the above poster, your WB defend won't really overlap due to his defend duty.

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My main issue is your setting up your advanced wide players to take risks and run in behind but then your playing Shorter Passes and Looking For Overlap which will slow attacks down.  They will hold up the ball to wait for support, whilst the Look For Overlap will make the WB's more attacking a WB-D is still quite safe so unlikely to get advanced until the final third when the defence is back and organized.

Plus I think your having the same issue as Klopp in RL, holding a high line and pressing high removes space to attack behind opponents unless you catch them out committing players forward early, but this is unlikely against lower teams, plus you can't really press like Klopp has his team do in RL.  Committing both fb's forward and having two creative CM roles could leave a lot of work for your DM and CB's.

The third and final issue is some of the roles the players have been asked to use such as using Wijnaldum as a playmaker which he doesn't have the attributes to do well IMHO and getting Coutinho to try and run behind opponents when he doesn't really have the speed like Mane to do.   Coutinho is much better collecting the ball at his feet and beating a player with a change of direction or a pass, maybe then making a run into space.

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Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'll look into changing the midfield up a bit and some of the instructions and see if it makes a difference for me. 

Edited by Sticx

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2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

.

Plus I think your having the same issue as Klopp in RL, holding a high line and pressing high removes space to attack behind opponents unless you catch them out committing players forward early

I don't understand this part about pressing will remove space to attack. My goal with the high line and pressing was on loss of possession to quickly put their team under pressure to force a mistake and win the ball back or force a long ball out of their defense. The Barcelona 5 second rule.

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1 hour ago, Sticx said:

I don't understand this part about pressing will remove space to attack. My goal with the high line and pressing was on loss of possession to quickly put their team under pressure to force a mistake and win the ball back or force a long ball out of their defense. The Barcelona 5 second rule.

But then barcelona pass the ball around as much as they like to create space to attack, this doesn't involve both wide forwards looking to run behind opponents or holding up the ball for am overlap.

The more you have advanced players looking to play on the shoulder of defenders and run behind them the more immediate space you need for them to run into.  

There is a difference between a half pitch press, 3/4 press and full pitch press.

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1 hour ago, Sticx said:

I don't understand this part about pressing will remove space to attack. My goal with the high line and pressing was on loss of possession to quickly put their team under pressure to force a mistake and win the ball back or force a long ball out of their defense. The Barcelona 5 second rule.

if you press the other team far back, there wont be any space behind them to attack. they will be compact/deep. 

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18 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

But then barcelona pass the ball around as much as they like to create space to attack, this doesn't involve both wide forwards looking to run behind opponents or holding up the ball for am overlap.

The more you have advanced players looking to play on the shoulder of defenders and run behind them the more immediate space you need for them to run into.  

There is a difference between a half pitch press, 3/4 press and full pitch press.

I have tried one or both IF on support duty, but then I feel like there is no one making any runs for the AP to play passes to. I haven't been able to move the ball around and drag defenders out of position like Barcelona can do IRL. My players will then seem to have no option but to start taking long shots, which is why I initially changed the IF's to attack. 

And I can't pick and choose under what scenario my players will press, I either have to have them close down or not. I can't say press on 3/4 of the pitch, but don't press here. 

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2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

But then barcelona pass the ball around as much as they like to create space to attack, this doesn't involve both wide forwards looking to run behind opponents or holding up the ball for am overlap.

The more you have advanced players looking to play on the shoulder of defenders and run behind them the more immediate space you need for them to run into.  

There is a difference between a half pitch press, 3/4 press and full pitch press.

This is interesting, may You post a pic that shows or explain how to press in that 3 different ways? 

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1 hour ago, Sticx said:

I have tried one or both IF on support duty, but then I feel like there is no one making any runs for the AP to play passes to. I haven't been able to move the ball around and drag defenders out of position like Barcelona can do IRL. My players will then seem to have no option but to start taking long shots, which is why I initially changed the IF's to attack. 

And I can't pick and choose under what scenario my players will press, I either have to have them close down or not. I can't say press on 3/4 of the pitch, but don't press here. 

TBH Liverpool's players are good technically and physically but aren't known for there mental attributes like Guardiola's Barcelona so won't have the composure or decision making (just example 2 attributes) to play that patient possession style (assuming you've set them up to do so).

Just because there isn't a through ball option doesn't mean he will automatically take a long shot, it depends on the players attributes, traits, what options he has and how risky/attack minded he is told to be.  For example a AP-S will play a bit safer than a AP-A in both positioning and pass choice even though both have Risky Passes Often.  There will also be a difference due to the team mentality, the more attacking you go the more they will try to play forward (vertically) rather than lateral or backwards.

The following image is from Lines and Diamonds (See guides section) by @THOG, whilst its not been updated in a while the principles are the same. Its long but worth a read if you haven't, the only major difference is Team Shape so skip that section.

TCUD0s2.png

Defensive Block = D-Line.  Pressure Intensity = Closing Down.

Your formation, roles+duties and team shape will affect this a bit, using a BWM or DF for example will increase the pressure intensity. You could also add that intensity to some other roles using the closing down Player Instruction rather than Team Instruction so your advanced players pressure hard but if they get past the pressure your team will drop back to the defensive block position.  You can also do this by adding Opposition Instructions so certain players in the opposition team (such as FBs) get pressured whilst others get marked tightly (such as BPD / DLP)  forcing a clearance, tackle or interception from a bad pass.

Edit: @Daniele77 see above.

Edited by summatsupeer

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

TBH Liverpool's players are good technically and physically but aren't known for there mental attributes like Guardiola's Barcelona so won't have the composure or decision making (just example 2 attributes) to play that patient possession style (assuming you've set them up to do so).

Just because there isn't a through ball option doesn't mean he will automatically take a long shot, it depends on the players attributes, traits, what options he has and how risky/attack minded he is told to be.  For example a AP-S will play a bit safer than a AP-A in both positioning and pass choice even though both have Risky Passes Often.  There will also be a difference due to the team mentality, the more attacking you go the more they will try to play forward (vertically) rather than lateral or backwards.

The following image is from Lines and Diamonds (See guides section) by @THOG, whilst its not been updated in a while the principles are the same. Its long but worth a read if you haven't, the only major difference is Team Shape so skip that section.

TCUD0s2.png

Defensive Block = D-Line.  Pressure Intensity = Closing Down.

Your formation, roles+duties and team shape will affect this a bit, using a BWM or DF for example will increase the pressure intensity. You could also add that intensity to some other roles using the closing down Player Instruction rather than Team Instruction so your advanced players pressure hard but if they get past the pressure your team will drop back to the defensive block position.  You can also do this by adding Opposition Instructions so certain players in the opposition team (such as FBs) get pressured whilst others get marked tightly (such as BPD / DLP)  forcing a clearance, tackle or interception from a bad pass.

Edit: @Daniele77 see above.

Tnx mate!

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There comes a point where I'm convinced that FM is, in fact, rocket science!

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