FM19 and beyond... Womens football? Do you want it?

[Smurf]

I think it could be added as an underlying reporting - the women's database could progress silently in the background. Of course turning this off altogether would have to be an option.Your game progresses normally. But you may get a news item relating to your Leauge - say I'm Liverpool and I get an news item stating that the Liverpool Women's Team have lifted the league trophy - or won a cup etc. 

And it would expand internationally, England's Ladies win the World Cup, or whatever. Plus you do see at the Fifa and Balon D'Or awards Women footballers being named alongside Men winners. I'm not totally against adding Women's football. Or I'm not totally for adding it to FM.This could be a way to slowly introduce it. But I'm not sure the fan base would be there just yet for a full blown management game. 

But if SI did add it - then I would get behind it. 

[Tony Wright 747]

50 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

I'd rather the time and resources were spent improving the main game thanks.

I entirely agree, there is far too many issues with the main game to be addressed at the moment, before going down this road

[Smurf]

17 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I entirely agree, there is far too many issues with the main game to be addressed at the moment, before going down this road

There's been issues with the main game since 1994... and they've always continued to improve the main game play whilst adding features. 

This would be no different than adding female staff as physios.

We should also have female referees and female lines persons. 

There is a full time female coach already http://www.southwales.ac.uk/courses/bsc-hons-sport-and-exercise-science/1435/the-only-full-time-female-coach-at-any-premier-league-football-academy/

And this should be reflected in the game, and as the game progresses we should more roles being filled by women professionals at clubs, coaches, physios, lines people, referees.

there's a femal referee in Germany http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/first-female-referee-appointed-take-charge-bundesliga-football/

As the years roll on in FM - there should be more generated staff in footballing roles within the game. 

 

And I think the women's football needs to be included in the game - as much so as introducing footballers that announce their sexuality. 

 

[Tony Wright 747]

4 hours ago, Smurf said:

There's been issues with the main game since 1994... and they've always continued to improve the main game play whilst adding features. 

This would be no different than adding female staff as physios.

We should also have female referees and female lines persons. 

There is a full time female coach already http://www.southwales.ac.uk/courses/bsc-hons-sport-and-exercise-science/1435/the-only-full-time-female-coach-at-any-premier-league-football-academy/

And this should be reflected in the game, and as the game progresses we should more roles being filled by women professionals at clubs, coaches, physios, lines people, referees.

there's a femal referee in Germany http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/first-female-referee-appointed-take-charge-bundesliga-football/

As the years roll on in FM - there should be more generated staff in footballing roles within the game. 

 

And I think the women's football needs to be included in the game - as much so as introducing footballers that announce their sexuality. 

 

I have no problem with FM adding female officals, coaches etc. but this thread was about adding female football teams to FM and if you read Cougar's and Barside's replies it would mean more than just an added feature

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Smurf said:

There's been issues with the main game since 1994... and they've always continued to improve the main game play whilst adding features. 

This would be no different than adding female staff as physios.

We should also have female referees and female lines persons. 

There is a full time female coach already http://www.southwales.ac.uk/courses/bsc-hons-sport-and-exercise-science/1435/the-only-full-time-female-coach-at-any-premier-league-football-academy/

And this should be reflected in the game, and as the game progresses we should more roles being filled by women professionals at clubs, coaches, physios, lines people, referees.

there's a femal referee in Germany http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/first-female-referee-appointed-take-charge-bundesliga-football/

As the years roll on in FM - there should be more generated staff in footballing roles within the game. 

 

And I think the women's football needs to be included in the game - as much so as introducing footballers that announce their sexuality. 

 

There is a world of difference between female non-player & player data, the former is directly comparable to male staff while the latter is not.

[Smurf]

Well I did say it would initially be underlying - just playing out leagues in the background etc. 

No different to having  unplayable nations.

If the person playing wants Womens football represented they can tick on that option when setting up the game. 

I know there's more to it with players stats and all that - but I'm not the development team.

It still could be represented and I think it should. 

[Guest]

There are two approaches, a crappy reskin of the male database or a dedicated & costly native remodelling, personally I’d prefer SI to take the latter approach.

[tiago_wakabayashi]

 

17 hours ago, FootballManager89 said:

We just need players with long hair and it'll be close enough.

I am seeing players with Fellaini's hair type, then it is being close hahah

14 hours ago, Artin said:

i'd rather be able to play the role of a Director of Football rather managing a women's club.

I'd rather be able DOF, Chairman and Women's Club. Oh, also youth/reserve/B team coach. 

10 hours ago, Barside said:

The main issue for me is how do you rate the players? Using the current scale has the benefit of not requiring a second ME but it does mean that most of the players in the database will have low single digit attributes & the regen model would have to ensure that the PA ranges stay low, that’ll probably be a cue for allegations of sexism due to the huge disparity in ability between male & female players.

The alternative is for women to have their own attribute weighting system so that they can have higher value ca/pa scores but that would require a massive ME rewrite & SI creating a second team to work on the women’s ME.

Simple like in FIFA: Different overalls. A woman with overall 99 is not the same a guy with 99 one. 

7 hours ago, forameuss said:

For me it would have to.  Despite some trying to desperately compare them on both sides, they're almost different sports in the way they're approached.  They'd either need a new ME to model that, or a severely tweaked one.  A whole new ME to support...can imagine SI would be delighted with that.

In that case, If I were SI and I wanted to include women's football, I would take care the graphic aspect (hair, for example) and I would see the new ME for women in another moment. But the current problem is that: SI is with difficulties with keep one engine, imagine two. Because that I would keep with one ME for both. 

5 hours ago, Smurf said:

There's been issues with the main game since 1994... and they've always continued to improve the main game play whilst adding features. 

This would be no different than adding female staff as physios.

We should also have female referees and female lines persons. 

There is a full time female coach already http://www.southwales.ac.uk/courses/bsc-hons-sport-and-exercise-science/1435/the-only-full-time-female-coach-at-any-premier-league-football-academy/

And this should be reflected in the game, and as the game progresses we should more roles being filled by women professionals at clubs, coaches, physios, lines people, referees.

there's a femal referee in Germany http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/09/08/first-female-referee-appointed-take-charge-bundesliga-football/

As the years roll on in FM - there should be more generated staff in footballing roles within the game. 

 

And I think the women's football needs to be included in the game - as much so as introducing footballers that announce their sexuality. 

 

I agree, should have more. In Brazil we have a female linesman in Serie A. Some years ago we had some female refs in the top league too. And very competent. 

[Smurf]

36 minutes ago, Barside said:

There are two approaches, a crappy reskin of the male database or a dedicated & costly native remodelling, personally I’d prefer SI to take the latter approach.

Well there's only one approach - and that's doing it right. 

 

[Tony Wright 747]

54 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Well there's only one approach - and that's doing it right. 

 

Or of course not do it at all, at least not yet

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

Well there's only one approach - and that's doing it right. 

 

The right way is the latter & that is costly plus there is no way to quantify how much of hat cost would be recouped through additional sales, what is positive for the idea of FM having a female database is the recent acquisition of the DFB license, if there was any market that had the potential to provide SI with a profitable return it is Germany & if the local sales plus market feedback show that the German management sim gamer will embrace FM then due to the establish reputation of the women's Bundesliga there could be an opportunity for SI, at the very least official licenses would not be cost prohibitive.

One simple thing SI could do is release two versions of box art, one has manager man & the other has manager women, at the very least that may hel gauge the appeal of the female game among those who buy a physical copy & will provide a visual in store reference that they take the women's game seriously even if it's not part of FM at that moment in time.

@Miles Jacobson you can have that marketing idea for free

[Colorado]

Wouldn't this be completely workable as a separate database, sort of as FIFA did?

SI are pretty forward thinking and inclusive about football (the gay player thing is an example of this). I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this included in the near future.

[Smurf]

10 hours ago, Barside said:

The right way is the latter & that is costly plus there is no way to quantify how much of hat cost would be recouped through additional sales, what is positive for the idea of FM having a female database is the recent acquisition of the DFB license, if there was any market that had the potential to provide SI with a profitable return it is Germany & if the local sales plus market feedback show that the German management sim gamer will embrace FM then due to the establish reputation of the women's Bundesliga there could be an opportunity for SI, at the very least official licenses would not be cost prohibitive.

One simple thing SI could do is release two versions of box art, one has manager man & the other has manager women, at the very least that may hel gauge the appeal of the female game among those who buy a physical copy & will provide a visual in store reference that they take the women's game seriously even if it's not part of FM at that moment in time.

@Miles Jacobson you can have that marketing idea for free

Well some might say that it will never be profitable. The Women's game is just not as popular. Although I do watch Women's football, I know a woman who plays professionally, very well known too.

I think for the longevity of the game - adding in the Women's database should a goal. 

However, as said before, the starting point could be to start including women referee's, officials, more women coaches, physios, scouts etc. 

Also including women's football tournament winners, world player of the year news items and other things of that nature. It can be a silent database.

Heck, I play with Internet on all the time - FM could have a news feed in game linked to the actual results and winners to populate news items. Clicking players names could go to the news item. It could mean they partner with a website to provide this feed in game. 

I'm just shooting ideas - I don't know how practical that is. But if it's any use, you can't have it for free - I want £10,000,000 

[Dagenham_Dave]

As Pat Kane of underwhelming Scottish 80s pop group Hue & Cry used to sing, 'too much pain for too little gain'.

Or something. 

[DizzyNewHeights]

Not really because I would prefer they put the time and effort into making the game better rather than do it to appease a minority of people. In the future then definitely I would have no problem with it being included, but only once they've significantly improved the game.

[Tony Wright 747]

17 minutes ago, DizzyNewHeights said:

Not really because I would prefer they put the time and effort into making the game better rather than do it to appease a minority of people. In the future then definitely I would have no problem with it being included, but only once they've significantly improved the game.

This was my argument exactly, I have nothing against the womens game, in fact I have watched a fair bit of it, but there is so much to improve in the main game before putting in the extra work needed to include the womens game.

[ChelseaSince86]

I'd never use it myself. Tbh, i dont think itll ever happen either

[Bigpapa42]

Absolutely. I think it needs to happen in the future. The key is how well its researched and integrated. Think it represents a big challenge for SI, because doing it poorly will bring a lot of backlash from a lot of directions. 

[Smurf]

50 minutes ago, DizzyNewHeights said:

Not really because I would prefer they put the time and effort into making the game better rather than do it to appease a minority of people. In the future then definitely I would have no problem with it being included, but only once they've significantly improved the game.

 

30 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

This was my argument exactly, I have nothing against the womens game, in fact I have watched a fair bit of it, but there is so much to improve in the main game before putting in the extra work needed to include the womens game.

 

17 minutes ago, ChelseaSince86 said:

I'd never use it myself. Tbh, i dont think itll ever happen either

 

10 minutes ago, Bigpapa42 said:

Absolutely. I think it needs to happen in the future. The key is how well its researched and integrated. Think it represents a big challenge for SI, because doing it poorly will bring a lot of backlash from a lot of directions. 

 

That's why I'm saying exactly to do it slowly, bring in the officials, staff, etc. - then work on that. 

Bring in international teams, limits the amount of data research required. But that would be much later on.

It can be done slowly using resources smartly, without taking away from the full game. 

[DizzyNewHeights]

But even adding it slowly would still take away time from other aspects of the game for minimal benefit. I would rather SI spent 200 hours on improving the ME than 200 hours adding in numerous female officials. Their releases right now are always far from being perfect, imagine how bad they would be if they took away from the time they spent on whatever else in order to add in some female officials. 

[themadsheep2001]

30 minutes ago, DizzyNewHeights said:

But even adding it slowly would still take away time from other aspects of the game for minimal benefit. I would rather SI spent 200 hours on improving the ME than 200 hours adding in numerous female officials. Their releases right now are always far from being perfect, imagine how bad they would be if they took away from the time they spent on whatever else in order to add in some female officials. 

The ME has its own separate team. 

[DizzyNewHeights]

4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The ME has its own separate team. 

Let me rephrase then. I think it would be better if the team that might spent 200 hours on adding in female officials to the game spent 200 hours doing something else to improve the game.

[Smurf]

You're assuming it takes 200 hours. In reality it's ongoing.  

200 hours is only 5 week's work. If that's all it takes then it's even more reason to add it...

[Gangor]

I accept that it's not economic currently to fully implement the women's leagues, but what I'd like to see SI do for the next iteration is the minimum possible work to allow women's teams and competitions to be added with mods and then use that to observe how many mods are created and how many people are playing them and talking about them on the forum. That would allow them to judge if more effort is warranted in the future.

[WizbaII]

An entire ME re-write is not required just because of a numbers issue. All you need to do is give the women normal numbers...and then have the game reduce the numbers (if it's a woman) under the hood before they are used in any calculations, which is very easy to do compared to the actual complex calculations that are always going on under the hood. However, the not-so-sensitive among us realize that it is simply a fact that men are faster than women and so women should obviously have lower attributes. I also tend to think you are not going to be running a game world that has both men and women playing at the same time. In that case, there wouldn't be any men numbers to compare the women numbers to so you could just give the women the actual numbers they should have according to the standards currently being used for men. I've never heard of a high-level instance where men coaches switched to women soccer or vice versa as each world is quite separate, so I don't think both worlds need to be simulated at the same time. A men's coach is not going to be affected by what's happening in the women's scene and vice versa.

Not that this matters, anyway. There are already so many men's games and mens leagues saturating our time that womens soccer can't make headway on the global level. And it's not like women soccer is not entertaining. They usually make smarter decisions and have more teamwork than men so those are some attributes that would actually be higher...

[tacticsdude]

The women leagues are way complicated. Most are hanging by a thread, there's barely any budget. They are tiny and flat without tiers. The real women's game is in nations competition, which is also a very odd universe. Adding women to FM would be creating a completely new game.

As much as it would be nice to have it as an option in FM, I think the women's game needs to grow quite a bit before it is worthwhile to build out their universe into FM. As mentioned, FM needs much improvement as of now to focus on this feature.

But I do like the idea of creating a baseline engine for women players and letting the community mod the leagues / nations. That shouldn't take long.

[kingjericho]

Game-wise, it's basically just a matter of adding the ladies to the database and creating their leagues.

But from a personal preference I don't have any interest in women's football so this would be a pointless addition.

[Carninho]

the fact that ive never seen anyone make a custom woman's database says it all, and I see plenty of crazy custom files from legends to made up solar systems...

I just dont see the point or the market for it. 

 

 

 

[BAD-RELIGION]

Would prefer to see a Futsal Manager instead

[tiago_wakabayashi]

8 hours ago, Carninho said:

the fact that ive never seen anyone make a custom woman's database says it all, and I see plenty of crazy custom files from legends to made up solar systems...

I just dont see the point or the market for it. 

 

 

 

There is one on FB, but I dunno how is the stage of it. 

2 hours ago, BAD-RELIGION said:

Would prefer to see a Futsal Manager instead

I knew a guy, from Portugal I think, was creating a Futsal Manager but I think the project was ceased. 

https://www.futsalmanager.pt

I would like to see a Futsal Manager.

[PJHoutman88]

I was thinking about this just yesterday. It would be *possible* of course, I don't think coding a female database would even be that difficult when most of the system is already in place. It would be just as simple as setting a club as 'always amateur': just set it as 'always female (player)' and you're good to go. As for attributes, why not give Lieke Martens the same attributes as Messi? They are top of their game respectively, and a 20 in dribbling for one is just as relevant as a 20 for the other, as they would never play in each other's 'universe'.

But any database produced by SI would be far less detailed and far more subjective than the 'male' database because of a lack of available information. Regardless of whether it's actually profitable to make such a database, I doubt SI would get behind making a database which would either be comparatively small or comparatively 'random'. Even if, as @Smurf suggests, they take a few years to 'fill out' behind the scenes, I still can't imagine them having comprehensive knowledge of more than four or five leagues. 

Beyond that, the main problems are balance issues. Most of the women's leagues are flat and one-dimensional. There's no chance for the Witton Albions of the female football world to just have a go at shooting up the leagues. Finances, stadiums and attendances work very differently too, and unless you're willing to forgo realism and have Barcelona Women play in front of a sell-out Nou Camp, there wouldn't be much to seperate them from say, SC Heerenveen in terms of reputation and allure. Either option would create a massively eschewed footballing world in just a few short seasons if the game's 'under the hood' mechanics remain the same as the main game. 

Then there's issues like pregnancy, maternity leave etc which would create all sorts of legal problems when applied to real life players, but would need to be included for newgen players if there was to be a semblance of realism. 

In conclusion: I would really like a women's football management sim. Not in the least to increase my own knowledge of and affiliation with women's football. But I don't think such a project could ever be incorporated into FM in it's current form. As a standalone game, there might definitely be merit, but then profitability becomes a much bigger issue. 

[jimmyfras93]

There isn't enough interest in the women's game for SI to spend time on it. It would require them changing codes throughout the game and probably wouldn't allow the two sides of the game to run simutaneously. I'd love for it to be apart of the game but whilst interest is low, there won't be movement here.

[rwq]

On 22/11/2017 at 03:21, Nacaw said:

To me, that's something which should be developed like FMT, as a separate version of the game, with its own game world. While female coaches will likely (hopefully) cross into the game on a more regular basis in the future, there is no indication that female players will be signed by even low level professional teams. Mixing the two worlds do not really make sense at this point

Shelley Kerr the current Scotland Women's manager managed Stirling Uni (Scottish Lowland League) before moving back into the women's game. If people can move between as happens a lot the current Glasgow City manager is Scott Booth who previously managed Stenhousemuir. You'd have to find a way to allow movement for the managers.

[DizzyNewHeights]

On 17/12/2017 at 09:50, Smurf said:

You're assuming it takes 200 hours. In reality it's ongoing.  

200 hours is only 5 week's work. If that's all it takes then it's even more reason to add it...

I only said 200 hours as an example, what is it with everyone on this board being so pedantic 

[FootballManager89]

I'm willing to compromise. Since we can't have women in the game, how about transexuals?

[tiago_wakabayashi]

1 hour ago, FootballManager89 said:

I'm willing to compromise. Since we can't have women in the game, how about transexuals?

I don't remember any case in pro football, just in other sports, more recently in the brazilian women's Superliga (volley).

[FootballManager89]

I feel like SI having players come out, the next step is transexuals.

[tacticsdude]

18 minutes ago, FootballManager89 said:

I feel like SI having players come out, the next step is transexuals.

Are you done, or is there one more coming?

[FootballManager89]

9 minutes ago, tacticsdude said:

Are you done, or is there one more coming?

Did I mention transexuals yet?

[FrazT]

This thread is going off topic so lets get it back please.  Miles has said before that women's football will be considered when it reaches the crowds and popularity of the English Championship and  it is a long way from that, so it is hard to imagine that it will happen soon.

[Guest]

Maybe it’s time for Miles to reassess that benchmark, I’m not in favour as I’d rather that current. resources where allocated to perfect the game as is but if the TV audiences suggests there is significant interest beyond those who have the time to attend a live match & research suggests that there are retail markets that are likely to provide an increased attach rate then the sums might add up to provide more additional income than the cost of implementation.

[Smurf]

I don't see why there can't be news items for now. 

[CFuller]

12 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I don't see why there can't be news items for now. 

What is the point of adding inconsequential news items about women's football into FM if the sport itself is not simulated in-game?

I've always said this about women's football in FM: if SI are going to include it, they're going to do it properly. Simply adding a news article along the lines of "[England/USA/Japan/whoever] have won the Women's World Cup this year" would not be doing it properly.

[Guest]

This matches my opinion, what I wouldn’t want to see is an Assisins Creed style reskin or a FIFA scenario where a significant number of real players do not exist due to legal constraints.

[Smurf]

I don't see any harm in it - and if they got the license then great. If they don't they can't do it.And it gives more prominence to women's football to younger players, no harm in that.I can't really see a downside to it - other than an argument that it takes away from some other part of the game - which I don't agree with.

I'd rather the stopped with all the journalism and news items and stripped that out of the game, or at least stripped it right back.  I think adding the women's news items would be a far better use of resources than adding in silly journalists questions about your team. But we all think we know what part of the game SI should work on and it's not really fair to suggest that other parts of the game won't be worked on while adding new features.

It's about equality - and SI have shown that with other features added this year.

[santy001]

35 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I don't see any harm in it - and if they got the license then great. If they don't they can't do it.And it gives more prominence to women's football to younger players, no harm in that.I can't really see a downside to it - other than an argument that it takes away from some other part of the game - which I don't agree with.

I'd rather the stopped with all the journalism and news items and stripped that out of the game, or at least stripped it right back.  I think adding the women's news items would be a far better use of resources than adding in silly journalists questions about your team. But we all think we know what part of the game SI should work on and it's not really fair to suggest that other parts of the game won't be worked on while adding new features.

It's about equality - and SI have shown that with other features added this year.

I can't speak for SI, but it's very unlikely that the developers who work on features like journalism are the same developers who work on league implementation etc. 

That it takes away from some other part of the game probably isn't that big an issue, what is more likely the case is that it would necessitate expanding the team. To actually do justice by womens football, a new research team would have to be established. This new data would also need additional QA support. It would likely become its own development team within SI too, necessitating new staff which is a lot easier said than done. 

Off the top of my head here's the things it would need:

- A new, or heavily modified match engine to represent the nuances of womens football tactically.
- Vastly altered newgen model to better represent the hotbeds of talent for womens football etc, produces different quantities of players. 
- General changes to newgens to reflect the generally smaller, lighter entity that is known as women.
- In an ideal world, actual female skeleton rigging for the match engine assets.
- Skins for these new female skeletons. Different hairstyles, etc.
- Animations, since different skeletons it would have to be a full set of new animations.
- Different attribute weightings, but also the time taken to figure these out. Some are fairly obvious, strength should be weighted higher for a female than a male, but agility?
- A different development and decline model would need to be developed, something that actually fits with womens football. 
- Developers
- QA staff
- QA staff with the knowledge of womens football to provide contextual feedback (X/Y/Z doesn't look right within the womens game)
- Head researchers (ie the guys like Gripper & Pete who work for SI)
- Assistant researchers (ie the guys like myself, MLG etc)
- Beta testers who will test this specific aspect of the game
- Ideally beta testers who will be able to provide contextual feedback

Each of those has a cost in hours or a cost in £'s, or both. Rigging skeletons is supposed to be one of the most costly, in terms of hours, aspects of game development. Animations need a lot of testing and time. 

It would be a massive undertaking to actually do it justice, an awful lot of people would be content with just some butchered male systems being used to do it, it could work that way and quite well, but it's usually not the case that SI takes the quick route with lower quality. Arguably, the best starting point would be to provide some kind of loose framework, open up some of the assets so that modders for the game could build this side in and see how it goes. Building up the framework a bit more each iteration to allow modders to do a bit more and allow SI to gradually get it towards a fully polished feature of the game. 

- - -

Stadium stuff has been getting built up in the game for a number of years now, and as far as I'm aware modders can't put in custom designed grounds yet, but I do believe that SI are building something that will allow there to be stadium packs sooner or later. That's just me guessing based on the fact that the licences for stadiums are locked down pretty tight at the moment. But even something perhaps a little less comprehensive than womens football is taking a while.

[Lenzar]

You'd have to remove all sissy injuries.

Never heard of a woman footballer being out with a 'bruised thigh'

[Smurf]

Example

News item

Ada Hegerberg of Norway and Lyon has won BBC Women's Footballer of the Year

 

News Item

Stephanie Roche has been nominated for best goal alongside Messi and Ronaldo.

 

I'm not talking an exhaustive database - something  basic that gives news items for now. 

I wouldn't think actual teams, tactics, stats for players etc. would be required at this stage.

[santy001]

8 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Example

News item

Ada Hegerberg of Norway and Lyon has won BBC Women's Footballer of the Year

 

News Item

Stephanie Roche has been nominated for best goal alongside Messi and Ronaldo.

 

I'm not talking an exhaustive database - something  basic that gives news items for now. 

I wouldn't think actual teams, tactics, stats for players etc. would be required at this stage.

They would have to be actual entities in the database, and as far as I'm aware, any person in the database who spends too much time sat around twiddling their thumbs retires. 

[Smurf]

I see.