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Does anyone really understand match cohesion?

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I'm a fairly experienced player, but this year's FM has been taking me to the cleaners. I like to play LLM and build squads up to the top. Done it in England, Spain and France, but I've had a terrible time trying to do it in Germany this year. I've been fired twice before December in the first season and I think I'm on my way to a third time. That's never happened before, not even close.

In each of the three teams I've tried in the 3rd division in Germany I have had a reasonable tactic, good players across the board and no team drama issues or especially high injury rates. The only indicator that something is wrong with the teams (and it's been true for all three) is that the "match cohesion" indicator on the team dynamics section has been very poor or abysmal. It doesn't seem to get any better as the season goes on and I'm at a loss as to why it is pegged so low.

I've only read a few discussions on what contributes to "match cohesion". Seems like people are mostly guessing at this point. Has anyone popped the hood and done any experiments to figure out exactly what affects it?

I used to chuckle at people who would make posts that the latest version of FM was simply too hard and they kept getting sacked. Well, now the joke's on me. Clearly I'm missing something in FM18 and I can't figure it out. If anyone has any ideas of what new feature or change it could be (beyond match cohesion), I'd welcome the input.

 

Cheers!

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I've seen my match cohesion improve significantly by focusing training both on team cohesion and on teamwork for match preparation. I suspect, but haven't confirmed, that playing footballers together who are in 'partnerships' (complementary positions and both good at their rules) probably builds it faster - I have struggled to do that. Like you I'm still coming to grips with the game but I think I'll figure it out.
 

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I have never trained match cohesion once, in fact I never bother too, I am in preseason still and my match cohesion is already good, because the players have improved their understanding in there player positioning, over time their ability to read the game will improve. 

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I am having exactly the same problem. Setting the entire pre season training to Team Cohesion didn't help as well.

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Thanks for the responses. It seems to underscore that we still don't really understand it. :)

I'll stay on team cohesion for training and I'll try teamwork for match prep. Thanks for that idea.

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Playing games with same lineup and formation helps also. When You start seeing green lines between players in your tactical overview you've built partnerships. Once they are formed and you have Team Cohesion in the green your team will begin to overachieve!

The secret to Team Cohesion and Match Cohesion is keeping the roster as stable as possible. Only a few players in and out at a time. Make Sure you pick your Captain and Vice-Captain from a team leaders.

I am playing with Wrexham and have just completed back to back promotions........mostly because I now understand the group dynamics tab and keeping it green is good.  The first few months were hell until I trained for a few badges and got some lucky wins to earn Manager of the Month a couple of times to improve my reputation and then after that players supported me and I didn't try to bring in too many new faces in any  one transfer window. NO MORE THAN FOUR! 

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I am by no means a master, but this is what I think:

Training Team Cohesion: This is the training you do when you want to get the team to like each other, trust each other, etc. It is the kind of stuff like team building exercises, trust falls, etc.

Match Cohesion: This is how much the players understand what other players are doing during the match. How much a player trust the other person to pass to them. It is kind of match familiarity, but not exactly. My experience is that if you train match tactics this will go up, but it will go up over time the more players play together.

 

 

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Thanks, these are good tips.

I managed to get our match cohesion up from very poor to poor and it is helping. I have team cohesion on high for training, along with teamwork for tactic training. I realize those might not correlate with match cohesion for sure, but I'm giving it a go.

Turns out the team I took over had a ton of new players come in right before I took over the team. I imagine that is part of why our match cohesion was so low.

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I'm struggling too with my tier 8 side.

 

I've had general training on Cohesion high/average since day 1 and into October 2017 it's risen from abysmal to very poor.

Match prep has always been on tactics until now familiarity is full, so maybe I need to switch to teamwork. Will that accelerate the squad's cohesion? 

Results are very bad so far and I believe that in addition to the low ability of the individual players, the main problem is this lack of cohesion.

Those of you further into your campaigns, how long did it take you for your squad's cohesion yo increase from abysmal to something decent?

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I'm now halfway through my season and I have slowly risen from abysmal to poor, but I'm not seeing any movement the last 3 matches.

On top of that I've slightly underperformed vs. expectations and I'm close to getting fired. 

I'm starting to seriously wonder is SI needs to take a look at this. Taking over a lower league club means there is often alot of turnover of personnel just before you take it over. I'm finding it extremely difficult to overcome that, not to mention it's just plain irritating.

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I had the same with my Belgian second division team. I support them in real life and they pretty much built their entire team from scratch again. Started at abysmal match cohesion and took nearly a full season (with 2 or 3 extra signings) to get it out of the red. Went back into the red slightly after promotion because I got another 5-6 new players but it's up to good now. So yeah, it takes time. Don't do any major overhauls if you can avoid them.

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2 hours ago, KlaaZ said:

I had the same with my Belgian second division team. I support them in real life and they pretty much built their entire team from scratch again. Started at abysmal match cohesion and took nearly a full season (with 2 or 3 extra signings) to get it out of the red. Went back into the red slightly after promotion because I got another 5-6 new players but it's up to good now. So yeah, it takes time. Don't do any major overhauls if you can avoid them.

I'd be interested to know if anyone's hit upon a 'formula'. So far for me the slider seems to have moved a notch every 5 league games, from abysmal to very poor to poor (still in the red). That ought to mean I'd be in the green in the latter part of the season (maybe youth intake day) if this rate of progress is steady. That's with no incomings.

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I'm not training it, because I'm worried training team cohesion is worse for developing player attributes.

 

At the end of the second season with Everton and I'm close to full cohesion. Just by time passing, even with excessive and chaotic rotation, so not good at creating bonds.  (scared silly of match fatigue, just recently learned the 2 days rest exploit).

 

Not sure if it matters that I've won/drawn most of the matches so far. Been really good at not loosing in the first season and getting upsets, second season the bigger teams was less complacent and a few have beaten the crap out of us, but no bad loosing streaks.

 

Also I can tell one of my team leaders to get any player complaining to STFU. Magic choice, never fails, new contract, want to leave, want to join Man Utd, doesn't matter team leaders make them drop it every time, so only time I have unhappy players is during a promise to get rid of them. I'm a sucker for wan't to return home, even though I ALWAYS fail to sell them to their home country, one of these days I will learn that if your in a "rich" club, you can't actually sell players to lower teams, as they demand to much wage. 

 

Does everyone start near neutral or is it like player attributes and actually scouted how much cohesion a team has at the start?

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On 22/11/2017 at 04:00, Miravlix said:

I'm not training it, because I'm worried training team cohesion is worse for developing player attributes.

 

At the end of the second season with Everton and I'm close to full cohesion. Just by time passing, even with excessive and chaotic rotation, so not good at creating bonds.  (scared silly of match fatigue, just recently learned the 2 days rest exploit).

 

Not sure if it matters that I've won/drawn most of the matches so far. Been really good at not loosing in the first season and getting upsets, second season the bigger teams was less complacent and a few have beaten the crap out of us, but no bad loosing streaks.

 

Also I can tell one of my team leaders to get any player complaining to STFU. Magic choice, never fails, new contract, want to leave, want to join Man Utd, doesn't matter team leaders make them drop it every time, so only time I have unhappy players is during a promise to get rid of them. I'm a sucker for wan't to return home, even though I ALWAYS fail to sell them to their home country, one of these days I will learn that if your in a "rich" club, you can't actually sell players to lower teams, as they demand to much wage. 

 

Does everyone start near neutral or is it like player attributes and actually scouted how much cohesion a team has at the start?

What's the 2 day rest exploit?

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On 22/11/2017 at 11:00, Miravlix said:

Does everyone start near neutral

I always start with Abysmal and crawl my way up from the bottom.

And that "2 day rest exploit"?? Do you mean letting them rest for 2 days if they have to play twice in a week? That's not an exploit, it's common sense.

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How do you get match cohesion to excellent?

I've got a settled first team and squad and only get in a couple of new players a year. 

Most of the team have played together for 3 to 4 seasons, and yet I can never get the cohesion to excellent. 

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1 hour ago, BamBamBam said:

How do you get match cohesion to excellent?

I've got a settled first team and squad and only get in a couple of new players a year. 

Most of the team have played together for 3 to 4 seasons, and yet I can never get the cohesion to excellent. 

I get it up to Excellent, then when the new intake arrives it drops to Good, so I have to make an effort again. What I do is train Cohesion in General training, and to maintain a very tight first team squad so that all the regular first teamers have played with each other frequently.

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12 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I get it up to Excellent, then when the new intake arrives it drops to Good, so I have to make an effort again. What I do is train Cohesion in General training, and to maintain a very tight first team squad so that all the regular first teamers have played with each other frequently.

Are you saying that when your youth intake happens, your match cohesion drops?  Honestly, I've never watched for that particular interaction, but if this is the case, I think that needs to be looked at.  There should be no circumstance where the intake of youth players affects the match cohesion of your first team squad.  I highly doubt the first team squad even know the names of the youth players, let alone have it affect their cohesion.

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12 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I get it up to Excellent, then when the new intake arrives it drops to Good, so I have to make an effort again. What I do is train Cohesion in General training, and to maintain a very tight first team squad so that all the regular first teamers have played with each other frequently.

But How?

I've rarely added to the first team or squad recently and yet, Very good, is as far as i can raise it.

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13 hours ago, Banditman said:

Are you saying that when your youth intake happens, your match cohesion drops?  Honestly, I've never watched for that particular interaction, but if this is the case, I think that needs to be looked at.  There should be no circumstance where the intake of youth players affects the match cohesion of your first team squad.  I highly doubt the first team squad even know the names of the youth players, let alone have it affect their cohesion.

Right, I should have added that I'm managing in non-league and on an Academy Challenge, whereby my only incoming players are from my academy. As soon as I've decided on the 3-6 kids to keep I sign them up and move them straight into the first team squad. They'll play the majority of their matches in the U23s or U18s friendlies, but all will get some first-team late-season pitch time. So the key point is, the moment incomers move into the first-team squad, cohesion drops and therefore you need to focus on it if you want to get it up again.

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13 hours ago, BamBamBam said:

But How?

I've rarely added to the first team or squad recently and yet, Very good, is as far as i can raise it.

Have you tried training Cohesion? A rough and ready formula I stumbled on is if General Training is on Cohesion, Match prep is on teamwork and your newbies are playing every match with your regulars, the Cohesion bar nudges up a notch roughly every 6 matches.

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Did you buy a lot of new players at the same time? I'm asking because i'm having the exact same problem with IFK Uppsala in 3rd division in Sweden.
When the game starts they only have one active (available)  player, so i basically had to sign a new team in the first window. They're an amateur team as well so all the players are on amateur contracts for one year. We have no leaders, no Highly influential players. All the players are on (other) in the hierarchy except for the Captain who is the only influential players in the team. Trained team cohesion for 2 months and it only went up from abysmal to very poor.

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I did say that i hardly bring players in now i have a settled squad.

And yet i can't get excellent cohesion.

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Ive played a match every 2 days, team a and team b rotating, played 10 friendlies, very heavy training load on match cohesion and match training 1 bar from full. My cohesion hasn’t improved 1%

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This is how team's cohesion should be in a club and below it  some of the reasons it exists:

IMG_20180812_230204.jpg.6d313d1ee2d367af27c0fdc87933f18b.jpg

And for me to achieve it the most important thing isn't training or something else. Beeing stable and have as much as you can the same players every year is the key for a successful career in fm. 

Edited by Sheriff7

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1 hour ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

Ive played a match every 2 days, team a and team b rotating, played 10 friendlies, very heavy training load on match cohesion and match training 1 bar from full. My cohesion hasn’t improved 1%

That's because you are spending the large majority of the time (if not all of it) between matches on Match Prep with little to no time spent on General Training - Team Cohesion.

A friendly every 2 days is overkill and leaves you hardly any time for Team Cohesion training, especially when you have allocated so much Match Prep time.  A friendly once every 3 days is plenty.

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20 minutes ago, Sheriff7 said:

This is how team's cohesion should be in a club and below it  some of the reasons it exists:

IMG_20180812_230204.jpg.6d313d1ee2d367af27c0fdc87933f18b.jpg

And for me to achieve it the most important thing isn't training or something else. Beeing stable and have as much as you can the same players every year is the key for a successful career in fm. 

Completely revamped my team after losing to Bolton. Hopefully my cohesion gets a move on.

 

@herne79 I thought matches would be the best medicine for cohesion?

Edited by Andrew_Goats_Gruff

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3 minutes ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

Completely revamped my team after losing to Bolton. Hopefully my cohesion gets a move on.

 

@herne79 I thought matches would be the best medicine for cohesion?

The way to increase Team Cohesion is to either set it as your General Training focus (and make sure the squad does actually have some time allocated for General Training, not just Match Prep) and/or it can change over a long period of time - longer than just pre season friendlies.

If you set General Training > Team Cohesion and then allocate all of the training time to whatever Match Preparation you have selected, your team are just going to work on Match Prep.

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I thought someone said once that training Team Cohesion doesn't actually help increase team cohesion but rather helps increase the attributes associated with it, or something.

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6 hours ago, Weston said:

I thought someone said once that training Team Cohesion doesn't actually help increase team cohesion but rather helps increase the attributes associated with it, or something.

There are no attributes associated with Team Cohesion.  What improving Team Cohesion actually does is affect something called "Blend".  Blend is a Match Engine modifier which influences how your team performs during a match.  Therefore better Team Cohesion = better Blend = better match performance (all other things being equal).

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11 hours ago, herne79 said:

There are no attributes associated with Team Cohesion.  What improving Team Cohesion actually does is affect something called "Blend".  Blend is a Match Engine modifier which influences how your team performs during a match.  Therefore better Team Cohesion = better Blend = better match performance (all other things being equal).

Is that all it is? Pretty sure I remember "blend" from the CM97/98 pre game editor :D

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12 hours ago, herne79 said:

There are no attributes associated with Team Cohesion.  What improving Team Cohesion actually does is affect something called "Blend".  Blend is a Match Engine modifier which influences how your team performs during a match.  Therefore better Team Cohesion = better Blend = better match performance (all other things being equal).

I usually set the team training to Team Cohesion for the summer months, especially when I bring in several new players. That should help, then, no?

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58 minutes ago, Weston said:

I usually set the team training to Team Cohesion for the summer months, especially when I bring in several new players. That should help, then, no?

The ideal time for it :thup:.

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5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The ideal time for it :thup:.

I rotate between that and fitness. Does training fitness actually help increase fitness, or does it just help increase attributes associated with fitness?

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23 minutes ago, Weston said:

Does training fitness actually help increase fitness, or does it just help increase attributes associated with fitness?

The oft-quoted answer is that fitness training improves attributes, not actual fitness. Playing matches improves fitness.

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3 minutes ago, warlock said:

The oft-quoted answer is that fitness training improves attributes, not actual fitness. Playing matches improves fitness.

Maybe that's what I was thinking of, then, and not Team Cohesion that is misleading. Come to think of it, I think I actually stopped rotating in my last save and just did Team Cohesion training in the summers for this reason.

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If you have players leaving & new ones joining the team it can go down a lot

If you rotate players into the matchday squad frequently, positive progression is very slow

 

When your teams understanding is poor 

you can have the best players in your matchday squad for their division

and they will be outperformed by 'lesser' players that do have good understanding

 

It's always my Pre-Season training focus because it can have such a large impact on the coming season.

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