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ai2ker

Surly 16 year olds refusing any tutor

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Great new feature. I'm sure most 16 year olds would rebuff their manager's suggestion to work with senior world-reknown players. I've had the same regens turn down 6 separate tutors of varying personality, all while having their morale drop to abysmal. What is the point of this? At least senior players being not interested makes sense. I've tried using different tones, choosing all the different options, even warning them about their conduct and youth development prior, nothing works. Guess I have someone stuck on 6 determination forever. 

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I'm finding that most players give a lot of lip in this version. Not just for tutoring - I've had the captain refuse to welcome players, senior squad members saying they won't talk to anyone about their unhappiness, and players playing a sub-6 rated game - then say they weren't bad.

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Not really a new feature ;) ... it has been like that for years.

Tutoring lacks any clear rules (they are all hidden, and you have little to no way of knowing them), and there is no good feedback as to why something happens.

It seems to be pretty much a percentages game. There is a certain amount of % chance that the youngster will reject your offer. This might be adjustable through the tones and options, but if that youngster is stuck at 90% reject chance, then tough luck for you, and you won't know that the chances for him to accept were incredibly low. 

Also the tutoring process itself is just a certain chance of changes to the stats, and to a premature end to the relationship. Again with no real feedback as to what happened and why. So you can't learn anything for your next tutoring pairing.

And yes, a 16 year old is unlikely IRL to reject tutoring from a star player or experienced veteran. But such is the game of chance in FM :)

Edited by StormenDK

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1 hour ago, Lenzar said:

I'm finding that most players give a lot of lip in this version. Not just for tutoring - I've had the captain refuse to welcome players, senior squad members saying they won't talk to anyone about their unhappiness, and players playing a sub-6 rated game - then say they weren't bad.

Same happened to me, my captain refused to welcome 2 players to the club and refused to speak to another player about an internal matter! Needless to say he was stripped of the captaincy and then sold!

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Most of the times they accept though I've had a couple of regens that have refused about 7-8 different tutors each. The best thing is the relationship I have with them is now described as 'Rival' for that very reason, while I'm favorite staff for virtually any other player in the team so good luck to them :D

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1 hour ago, ai2ker said:

By making everyone on your squad autistic?

Most people with autism are aware of their own difficulties and therefore try very hard to be nice to other people.

In FM18, everyone in your squad is now a raging asshole.

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well my second post provoked the ire of the powers that be. I guess to put it more politely, these interaction don't mirror ones of people with normal socialization. I'm curious  as to what model they are trying to convey?

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54 minutes ago, turnip said:

Most people with autism are aware of their own difficulties and therefore try very hard to be nice to other people.

In FM18, everyone in your squad is now a raging asshole.

Playing with fire that 'I'm sorry to hear you're injured' message.

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10 hours ago, StormenDK said:

Also the tutoring process itself is just a certain chance of changes to the stats, and to a premature end to the relationship. Again with no real feedback as to what happened and why. So you can't learn anything for your next tutoring pairing.

You can use their changing Determination, Personality and Media Handling Style changing to understand and influence their hidden attributes. That's the entire point of tutoring, 

The falling out events are pure RNG. You can reload the instant it happens if you're fortunate to have a recent save and it's almost certain not to reoccur.

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This is a bug, as far as I'm concerned. It's either a bug that 'locks' players in a state where they refuse to participate in any tutoring, or a bug with the dialogue presenting incorrect info to the player. 

Even though they say, when refusing, something along the lines of "I'm open to tutoring but not from John Smith. Feel free to suggest someone else." it's impossible to ever get them to accept. You can cycle through countless sensible tutoring matchups and have every one refused. It goes both ways too, there are tutors and tutees who are 'locked' like this. The only way to make a tutor do anything is if the option to ask them to nominate a tutee pops up and the one they choose happens to be a good choice. 

Either the dialogue needs to be amended to have them communicate that they don't and will never have any interest in tutoring, or they need to be more open to tutoring with another partner or at another time. Either way, something's not working right. It's a bug. 

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As someone who played semi-pro sport (hockey, not football (soccer)), I'm always amazed at these interactions. When a coach asks something of a player, the player does it, simple as that. There can be a discussion, but the sport is not a democracy; the coach has the final word. This also went for our professional affiliates as well. We routinely had the pros helping us. It's considered a condition of employment. If a player treated coaching or management like some of the players do in this game, they would find themselves blacklisted fairly quickly by the entire league.

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2 hours ago, cerud said:

As someone who played semi-pro sport (hockey, not football (soccer)), I'm always amazed at these interactions. When a coach asks something of a player, the player does it, simple as that. There can be a discussion, but the sport is not a democracy; the coach has the final word. This also went for our professional affiliates as well. We routinely had the pros helping us. It's considered a condition of employment. If a player treated coaching or management like some of the players do in this game, they would find themselves blacklisted fairly quickly by the entire league.

Well, I can't talk for the other managers around in my game, but the last kid who refused to be tutored got sold within 3 months of that in my team. Isn't that you job as the manager? Since personalities like that actually exists, you know? The kid in my games said he would love to be tutored, but refused everyone I tried. So he got shipped out, and are blacklisted by me at least. But he was "outspoken, volatile, confrontational", so no surprises for the attitude at least.

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I agree with Cerud that the incidences of youth/reserve players being in revolt with the manager seems to be unrealistic.  Their refusal do any sort of request/order would be very rare surely, despite whatever personality the game has given them.

In FM 17, I had an 18 year old fringe player who I gave a game against my amateur feeder club, which the team struggled to win and I was unimpressed in the final team talk.  On Monday, the first knock on the door was this reserve complaining that he wasn't happy with how I had talked to the team- What??  Regardless of the status of the manager, I find it hard to accept that any young player in that situation would confront the manager.

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5 hours ago, FrazT said:

I agree with Cerud that the incidences of youth/reserve players being in revolt with the manager seems to be unrealistic.  Their refusal do any sort of request/order would be very rare surely, despite whatever personality the game has given them.

In FM 17, I had an 18 year old fringe player who I gave a game against my amateur feeder club, which the team struggled to win and I was unimpressed in the final team talk.  On Monday, the first knock on the door was this reserve complaining that he wasn't happy with how I had talked to the team- What??  Regardless of the status of the manager, I find it hard to accept that any young player in that situation would confront the manager.

It seems to just be percentages, and even low chances for this happening, it will eventually for some managers. It would **** me off to no end seeing a situation like this, or having some 16-year old telling me that the local club legend is not someone he wants to be tutored by.

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23 hours ago, Lenzar said:

and players playing a sub-6 rated game - then say they weren't bad

I just had Joe Gomez (Liverpool) play a 5.8 away at Palace. I've never seen a worse rating for one of my players so had a word.... he thought he was excellent and is now being a problem child. I think this is a bug - players in previous versions knew when they'd played so badly and accepted it. His personality is solid too. I've used that option for anyone below a 6.3 forever and never had a problem before. You have to get the reason for the chat right obviously but I know what I'm doing so it's not that. 

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I never understood the player interactions at all, not in this FM, not in previous versions. To me it almost seems a feature with the intention of deliberately messing up your squad cohesion and overal atmosphere, maybe with the idea of making managing somewhat more difficult, dunno. By any means it is not realistic and it has never been. In previous version of FM maybe 25% of the youngsters would refuse tutoring, now it seems to be a lot higher where even 25% is ridiculous. Also the overall happiness of back-up players seems to be again an issue. 

Now let's make a comparison with real life: Let's say Mourinho calls up Callum Gribbin to the first team, let's him train with them and decided he could use some extra guidance from Ander Herrera, Gribbin refuses because he doesn't want to work with Herrera and gets pissed with Mourinho. Mourinho decides to fine him and put him back to the reserve squad, Gribbin then feels he is untreated fairly tells his team mates about this and half of the squad is pissed with Mourinho :D

This is of course a completely ridiculous scenario, yet not an exception in FM. These interactions really have to be looked at and made more smoothly and easy to deal with as most players and especially young players are in real life way more professional than in FM. Of course you've got your 'hard-to-deal-with' type of players, the Diego Costa's and Mario Balotelli's, but these are in general exceptions whilst in FM 50% of all the players seems to have a character like Diego Costa or Mario Balotelli.  

In general I would feel that 95% of all the youngster would do anything to get with the first team and most back-up or rotation players don't fall out with their manager if they don't play enough matches. Let alone the scenario where a frustrated player goes to his team mates and will start stoking them up against the manager. It's just utterly ridiculous stuff that really needs to be worked on by SI. 

Edited by Cedrik

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This happens so often in this years game, and not just with tutoring either.

 

Earlier today my Newcastle team had the first Europa League game of the season to play, but every single one of my left wingers were either injured or just back from injury, so i didn't to make things worse by risking someone who has just been to for a few months with a torn hamstring in a game that i felt i could win. Then i remembered i had one of those "best players of our generation" potential players come through the academy the previous season, and figured i'd throw him in at the deep end for his debut since he looked good attribute wise, and had a rating of above 8 for his youth league games.

 

He ends up getting a 7.8 in a 6-0 victory. You could tell he was rough, and he didn't score or assist but he did look good enough for me to give him the full ninety minutes. After the game i speak to him to tell him that he played really well and he turns round and tells me "that's not really what i would consider a good performance, but okay", with his next comment being something along the lines of "i still can't believe that's what you think is a good performance, i'll be going now". Little **** would have felt the back of my hand if it was real life and he spoke to his manager like that.

 

There is 100% no chance of that scenario happening in real life, and it really needs to be looked at for the next patch.

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1 hour ago, Bradley21 said:

This happens so often in this years game, and not just with tutoring either.

Earlier today my Newcastle team had the first Europa League game of the season to play, but every single one of my left wingers were either injured or just back from injury, so i didn't to make things worse by risking someone who has just been to for a few months with a torn hamstring in a game that i felt i could win. Then i remembered i had one of those "best players of our generation" potential players come through the academy the previous season, and figured i'd throw him in at the deep end for his debut since he looked good attribute wise, and had a rating of above 8 for his youth league games.

He ends up getting a 7.8 in a 6-0 victory. You could tell he was rough, and he didn't score or assist but he did look good enough for me to give him the full ninety minutes. After the game i speak to him to tell him that he played really well and he turns round and tells me "that's not really what i would consider a good performance, but okay", with his next comment being something along the lines of "i still can't believe that's what you think is a good performance, i'll be going now". Little **** would have felt the back of my hand if it was real life and he spoke to his manager like that.

There is 100% no chance of that scenario happening in real life, and it really needs to be looked at for the next patch.

I've always thought the feature where you want to thank the player for scoring a crucial winner, the game forces you to specifically praise their passing or defensive work instead, and then the player with a perfectly benign personality gets upset because they think their passing was average is the stupidest thing in FM. 

Understand the odd player refusing tutoring if they're supposed to be a headcase, but this thread suggests it might not be one or two...

 

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I've been having weird stuff happen with my tutoring in FM18.

Brought in Wayne Rooney (dont laugh at me, I'm Solihull Moors), and asked him to tutor one of my strikers. He told me to sod off. Fair enough I thought, I'll leave it be. Signed a young midfielder who had a similar personality to Rooney shortly after and thought 'perfect'. Asked Rooney to tutor him, he told me to get lost again... About to throw my monitor when I clicked the 'Is there anyone else you'd prefer to tutor' button and lo and behold... He said 'yeah how about that striker you wanted me to tutor a month ago and I told you to get lost'..... Thanks Wayne. Finally got you where I wanted you to be, but you didn't half make it a fuss.

Also seen so many 16 and 17 year olds tell me that they didn't want to work with experienced players like Steven Taylor and Wayne Rooney. I'm sorry but the chance to work with them when you are at a tiny club and tbh have potential to MAYBE get into League 2 level footy, there is NO WAY they would turn this down (even if mentoring with Wayne Rooney does include visits to the local OAP home to 'volunteer' and mentoring with Taylor included visits to the local hospital to name a new wing after him).

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Sounds like you didn't have the rep (respect) to get Rooney to tutor.

 

Still doesn't make sense that he would refuse (when told by the coach), and then one month later suggest the same player to tutor (when told to choose who to tutor).

That sounds more like of a conversation you would have with a 3-year old.

Parent: "Eat your peas"

3-year old: "No, I refuse"

Parent: "Then what would you like to eat? - You choose"

3-year old: "I would like som peas, please"

Edited by StormenDK

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4 minutes ago, StormenDK said:

Still doesn't make sense that he would refuse (when told by the coach), and then one month later suggest the same player to tutor (when told to choose who to tutor).

That sounds more like of a conversation you would have with a 3-year old.

Parent: "Eat your peas"

3-year old: "No, I refuse"

Parent: "Then what would you like to eat? - You choose"

3-year old: "I would like som peas, please"

We weren't given enough info to definitively say anything. I can think of a reason or two that makes it plausible, but at the same time, it could also be buggy behavior where one area isn't connecting with another properly. 

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I have said it for so many versions, or since they implemented it, player interactions are faulty at best, every player in the FM World is on the edge, so tense, waiting to go off on you, its a World of psycopath´s, one wrong sentence from the manage, or the right sentence but the wrong tone they are unhappy at best, creating mutiny at worst. Not very realistic is it? the worst part is that by this Point , having had player interactions, there is still no handbook for every possibly player interaction or examples given on how to hanlde different psycopatic relationship within FM. I wish they could tone down on the agression so it could feel alittle bit normal, i cant imagine that it how it works in real Life, of course they are exceptions but should these be the rule in FM?

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10 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

We weren't given enough info to definitively say anything. I can think of a reason or two that makes it plausible, but at the same time, it could also be buggy behavior where one area isn't connecting with another properly. 

It pretty much happened as I said, not sure what extra I could add. He literally refused to tutor one lad, signed a player shortly after and he refused again, clicked on 'who would you be happy to tutor' and bam, it was my first choice he was choosing. Damnit Wayne :D

Rep MAYBE, but Rooneys rep had crashed (not even 1 star, greyed out stars only) and he was on £800pw in 2020-21 at my Solihull team I'd dragged into League 2. He'd played for Everton in 2017-18 (a grand total of 10 times) and then not played since. Been free for over a year. 

I cant check my rep now, since this is my unemployed/journeyman save and I've moved on to Wolves and while mine is now 2 star his is 5 greyed out stars. I think my rep was similar to his at the time but since I cannot be sure I don't want to say it was higher for sure. He was defo more of a forgotten star when I got him than the 160k pw guy he is atm lol.

Edited by Mallo
Adding a date.

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I'm still getting it from a high potential youth player.

 

I've transfer listed him. Nobody wants him. 

 

Kind of implausible.

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