Youth progression: With better facilities/mentors or playing top level football?

[StevieWard]

Soi I have an 18 year old wondekid regen I signed from Ajax & was initially signed to play in my reserves. In pre season Fulham unprompted offered to loan him as a first team regular, I accepted and he started 31 of their league games with Avg. Rat. of 7.31 & was voted their player of the season. Pretty good going for a 17/18 year olds first year in the top flight. I planned to play him this seaosn in my 21's & he'd get some first team opportunities in cup games & whenever I had to rotate my team for upcoming games against big opponents.

Newcastle have now offered to loan him for the season as a key player so I'd presume he'll play every week. I'm Man United - best training facilities & coaches.

What's he going to benefit more from? Playing in my U-21's with maybe 5-6 random first team appearances but being trained with my high level coaches and facilities with a mentor assigned to him - or playing every single week for Newcastle (who came 10th last season whcih I think was an under achievement, they have a decent squad which should be around the top 6 places).

I'd have said the latter because surely he'll learn a lot more playing every week?

 

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by StevieWard

[Cougar2010]

Tough call when he was out on loan last season.

Would he be 1st choice for Newcastle? Whats the competition like for his place there?

I'm presuming he would be 3rd choice for you, if you could give him say 10-15 starts this season I would keep him, if not perhaps better to let Newcastle play him.

[StevieWard]

Well they've taken him as a "Key Player" so with that logic I'd expect him to play every single game for the3m. (and again umprompted - I've never listed him for loan, they approached me). Their first choice RB last season was Dani Alves (ex Barca). He's 36 now but been their first choice the last 2 seasons. He still pretty good even at 36, probably still got 1 top flight season left in him. Their other RB is Chaker Alhadhur who has been a squad player with around 15 appearances last couple of seasons. I'd like to think my player would play ahead of both of them - and even if he doesn't always played ahead of Alves he should still get 20 + starts for them. He never missed a game for ~Fulham aside from a couple of brief injuries although I don't think you can compare as they were relegation candidates who eventually finished 14th.

In my team in all seriousness, I don't even think he'd get 10 starts. I'm potentially moving on one of my RB's on at the end of this season, so if he did well for Newcastle or even knocked it out the park in my resefves and impressed in some first team games I'd deffo look to promote him to my 1st team fully instead of signing a replacement but thats at least 1 year away from now.

Edited November 4, 2017 by StevieWard

[michaeltmurrayuk]

Playing matches is generally the most important thing for development so if Newcastle will play him and he is good enough for their level (performing badly or playing at a level much below his ability won't generally help him) then loaning him would be best, the main reason to keep him at your club is if you need to tutor him or want him to become homegrown.

[Jibby123]

I try to mould their mental stats and personality to the max I can and teach them the PPM's if I am using any for what role I think he will fill AND THEN loan him out.

Looking at him, he's done that already mental stats wise. So.....

He's going to Newcastle for me no question, big club in the PL with great facilities and they are wanting him as a key player. It's a natural progression on Fulham the previous season.

He's not looking Manchester United ready yet (as in first team regular for team chasing Premier League and Champions League), but looks a great one for future.

[matty2323]

i dont use loan out players all that often. Mainly because often, my facilities and staff are of a higher standard, i cannot tutor the player, i have no control over the training and it effects home grown rules. Agreed, there are benefits to them "playing", but i feel at 16-20, reserves is suitable enough and i have complete control over them. The only time i use loans is if im happy with the training and development i've done, but i have a couple of players ahead of them im not ready to move on yet. Then its purely to get them football at a higher standard.

Looking at your player, depending on how you play, you may want your full backs to be quite aggressive and get forward. Your lads is very defensive stat driven with minimal technique, off the ball or dribbling stats. You may want to start focusing his development more on the offensive stats in his game, where by loaning him out to Newcastle, they could continue his defensive development. I imagine there are pro's and con's to all aspects, but i like to mould players to suit the tactics i have, and most stat increases/changes happen in those early years.

[Dr. Hook]

Just so everyone is aware, till 18, training and facilities are the most important in development, after 18, development is weighted towards matches, so if you don't like loaning, then they need to be getting quality playing time for you in some way.

[matty2323]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:

Just so everyone is aware, till 18, training and facilities are the most important in development, after 18, development is weighted towards matches, so if you don't like loaning, then they need to be getting quality playing time for you in some way.

at a big club, is reserve football not considered "quality playing time"? If im 18 playing in Man United reserves, getting 30-40 games in some world class training facilities, you'd expect that to be ok?

[Dr. Hook]

2 hours ago, matty2323 said:

at a big club, is reserve football not considered "quality playing time"? If im 18 playing in Man United reserves, getting 30-40 games in some world class training facilities, you'd expect that to be ok?

It should be okay- what you are looking for is making sure they are playing with and against players of their level or better. What you don't want to do with your promising players that you think have a shot at your first team is send them off to the Conference on loan, for example. What I do is gauge about what level my youth would be playing at as a first teamer and if I need to loan, pick a league that matches that or is better. Reserve leagues with high quality clubs in it should be fine. You should get a coach report in those cases when they've likely stalled out and if he is still not ready for your first team, look to loan somewhere.

[Domathon]

i was jealous of how your regens have faces, then i noticed your playing on fm16 (fm18 beta we have no faces on our regens right now)

 

i have noticed the better youth facilities you have the higher chance of better regens 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Domathon

[Dr. Hook]

5 hours ago, Domathon said:

i have noticed the better youth facilities you have the higher chance of better regens 

No, that isn't true at all- the facilities are just for training the youths- better regen chances are affected by team rep and youth recruiting

[Seb Wassell]

6 hours ago, Domathon said:

i was jealous of how your regens have faces, then i noticed your playing on fm16 (fm18 beta we have no faces on our regens right now)

 

i have noticed the better youth facilities you have the higher chance of better regens 

 

39 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:

No, that isn't true at all- the facilities are just for training the youths- better regen chances are affected by team rep and youth recruiting

Youth Facilities does add to the Newgen equation, along with lots of other factors, better YF = better Newgens.

Training Facilities are for training, senior and youth.

[Seb Wassell]

12 hours ago, matty2323 said:

at a big club, is reserve football not considered "quality playing time"? If im 18 playing in Man United reserves, getting 30-40 games in some world class training facilities, you'd expect that to be ok?

Reserve football is not comparable to competitive league football, provided the level is high enough. Playing in the Championship would be far superior to reserve football for example.

[Seb Wassell]

As @Dr. Hook says, before the age of 18 training and coaching is essential, after the age of 18 matches become essential (provided they are at a suitable level for the player's ability).

[StevieWard]

So by what your all saying, I'd have been better keeping him last year when he was 17 & not loan him out until this year?

@matty2323 yeah, his attacking stats are pretty poor compared with his mental & physical which are already really good. If he doesn't develop into an attacking full back Im ok with that. Hes also only 5"3 so hes never going to beat anyone in the air. I have actually considered retraining him as an MC as well.....

Was just curious on the best way to develop him. I've put him to Newcastle, see how he gets on.

Even with Man U with world class facilities, training & coaches in 4 seasons the 2 best players from my youth teams Ive had were only 3.5 PA and they were Brazilian & Argentinian! The highest English ones Ive had has been 2.5 PA. The player ive been talkingabout in this thread with 4 stars I signed from Ajax when he was 17.

[Dr. Hook]

4 hours ago, StevieWard said:

So by what your all saying, I'd have been better keeping him last year when he was 17 & not loan him out until this year?

@matty2323 yeah, his attacking stats are pretty poor compared with his mental & physical which are already really good. If he doesn't develop into an attacking full back Im ok with that. Hes also only 5"3 so hes never going to beat anyone in the air. I have actually considered retraining him as an MC as well.....

Was just curious on the best way to develop him. I've put him to Newcastle, see how he gets on.

Even with Man U with world class facilities, training & coaches in 4 seasons the 2 best players from my youth teams Ive had were only 3.5 PA and they were Brazilian & Argentinian! The highest English ones Ive had has been 2.5 PA. The player ive been talkingabout in this thread with 4 stars I signed from Ajax when he was 17.

Pretty, much yes, though you probably didn't do any lasting damage to him- and a word on the PA stars; they don't mean too much after a point. The PA stars would be where he fit in your team if he reached what the coaches think is his top potential.  2.5 stars means average for your squad, and as ManU, you have to realize that it is a pretty high CA. That same regen on a lower tier Prem team would be a 4 or 5 star potential. So don't give up on those 2-3 star guys too early

[Dr. Hook]

4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

 

Youth Facilities does add to the Newgen equation, along with lots of other factors, better YF = better Newgens.

Training Facilities are for training, senior and youth.

Well that is me corrected thanks for clarifying that Seb!

[Domathon]

10 hours ago, Dr. Hook said:

Well that is me corrected thanks for clarifying that Seb!

...........

[tajj7]

I don't particularly like to loan my best prospects out, if it's someone that is only ever likely to be a backup/rotation option then yeh, but if it's someone highly rated then I like to mould them with PPMs. Tutoring, role training, specific attribute training, they don't get that at other clubs. Plus it's rare they play in their natural position I usually adjust them to new positions that better suit what I want or their attributes. 

I'd keep him and have him as your back up right back, rotate him into the team for easier home games, league cup, easier champs league, last 30 minutes of games etc.  He could easily have 15 - 20 starts by the end of the season. plus another 10-15 sub appearances. 

Any regen of that quality I plan his route into the team, clearing a path for him so I'd have probably shipped out my back up right back by that point. I especially do this as I tend to use teams that have the bring through youth/sign young players for the first team board preferences. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by tajj7

[StevieWard]

The problem is if I keep him he'll maybe get 5/6 1st team appearances spread across the whole season. He's got England & Italys 1st choice rightbacks ahead of him both with first team regular as their status. I could be looking to move oneof them on at seasons end, so if he does well at Newcastle I'll just promote him to the senior squad instead of buying someone.

[Per Annum]

On 11/5/2017 at 02:32, Dr. Hook said:

Just so everyone is aware, till 18, training and facilities are the most important in development, after 18, development is weighted towards matches, so if you don't like loaning, then they need to be getting quality playing time for you in some way.

Genuinely thought you were talking about versions before and after FM 18 until Seb's post further down!

[LCpl]

Finding my kids out on loan are progressing faster than the kids I kept in the u23's on the fringes. Tough call. I want some of my youth as third choice cover, but fourth choices on loan and playing regularly are (in some cases) developing faster,

[AFCBeer]

I really like this regen. His mentals and physicals already look elite level. His technical attributes are still somewhat lacking so for that reason I’d want him to get the best coaching he can. 

Personally I’d look to give him 10 PL starts next season against the so called lesser teams. With a few European games and all domestic cups too he could develop quite quickly. 

[mark1985]

I would send him out on loan so he could get first team football. How about a half season loan? Bring him back in January time and if he's progressed well enough, stick him on the bench and bring him on plus start him in remaining cup matches if he's not cup tied(plus the odd start in he league). That way you're looking at around 20 starts and maybe the same amount off the bench.

[tajj7]

10 minutes ago, mark1985 said:

I would send him out on loan so he could get first team football. How about a half season loan? Bring him back in January time and if he's progressed well enough, stick him on the bench and bring him on plus start him in remaining cup matches if he's not cup tied(plus the odd start in he league). That way you're looking at around 20 starts and maybe the same amount off the bench.

Probably better to do it the other way round, all your easier league cup, FA cup, easier European group games will be in the first half of the season. 

By January/February you are into knock out/later rounds of these cups so might want more of your first team and will probably want to rotate less. 

[mark1985]

8 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Probably better to do it the other way round, all your easier league cup, FA cup, easier European group games will be in the first half of the season. 

By January/February you are into knock out/later rounds of these cups so might want more of your first team and will probably want to rotate less. 

Good point. Send them out on loan to a Newcastle if they're still interested or a team competitive in the Championship (pushing for playoffs so you get an extra few games as well!)

[JB1979]

This is what sometimes has me tearing my hair out with FM. After playing for years I stumble into a thread where I find that ideally I shouldn't be loaning out under 18s to maximise their potential and that youth facilities do help with newgen creation. I don't think I have ever heard this information before, certainly not in game.

Could your assistant manager not suggest that loaning out players under 18 may not be best for them (e.g. are you sure dialogue - it may not be best for their development) and when improving facilities could the game not give some basic information of what that means and what it will affect? Or have I missed these nuggets - I have for the past 3 years played FMT only.

[mark1985]

36 minutes ago, JB1979 said:

This is what sometimes has me tearing my hair out with FM. After playing for years I stumble into a thread where I find that ideally I shouldn't be loaning out under 18s to maximise their potential and that youth facilities do help with newgen creation. I don't think I have ever heard this information before, certainly not in game.

Could your assistant manager not suggest that loaning out players under 18 may not be best for them (e.g. are you sure dialogue - it may not be best for their development) and when improving facilities could the game not give some basic information of what that means and what it will affect? Or have I missed these nuggets - I have for the past 3 years played FMT only.

It's not an exact science to be honest and everyone has different opinions. Plus there are lots of variables.

[jcp1417]

On 04/11/2017 at 20:55, matty2323 said:

at a big club, is reserve football not considered "quality playing time"? If im 18 playing in Man United reserves, getting 30-40 games in some world class training facilities, you'd expect that to be ok?

 

On 04/11/2017 at 23:05, Dr. Hook said:

It should be okay- what you are looking for is making sure they are playing with and against players of their level or better. What you don't want to do with your promising players that you think have a shot at your first team is send them off to the Conference on loan, for example. What I do is gauge about what level my youth would be playing at as a first teamer and if I need to loan, pick a league that matches that or is better. Reserve leagues with high quality clubs in it should be fine. You should get a coach report in those cases when they've likely stalled out and if he is still not ready for your first team, look to loan somewhere.

 

On 05/11/2017 at 08:00, Seb Wassell said:

Reserve football is not comparable to competitive league football, provided the level is high enough. Playing in the Championship would be far superior to reserve football for example.

My apologies for reviving an old post. I know it's from FM 16, but the concept should still apply.

What is the best way to gauge what level my reserves team is at? The Championship is much better than my reserve league of course, but what about League One or Two, or even the National? I know that players older than 18 should play at an appropriate level. If I loaned each player to their appropriate level, then all of my U23 team would go to a variety of L1, L2, and NL teams. Is the best approach to simply wait for my asst manager to advise me that I should look to loan the player?

[Sharkn20]

In the players report it tells what level he is at, and it also tells you the potential.

You have like X is good for League One / Championship Level.

X has the potential to be good for PL for example.

[jcp1417]

1 hour ago, Sharkn20 said:

In the players report it tells what level he is at, and it also tells you the potential.

You have like X is good for League One / Championship Level.

X has the potential to be good for PL for example.

of course, but my question was how to know what level my reserves team is at. For example, I have a player on my reserves team and his report says that he has the current ability for League Two. Is the U23 league appropriate for him or does he have to be loaned? The same question applies to League One and National. I know that Championship level players need to be loaned. This is all assuming that I'm in the Premier League already

[Sharkn20]

1 hour ago, jcp1417 said:

of course, but my question was how to know what level my reserves team is at. For example, I have a player on my reserves team and his report says that he has the current ability for League Two. Is the U23 league appropriate for him or does he have to be loaned? The same question applies to League One and National. I know that Championship level players need to be loaned. This is all assuming that I'm in the Premier League already

You can see the "Prestige" that the league has by clicking in it and find the ranking, the more Prestige the more important and more aids to development.

Friendlies in the B Team or U23 Team is basically rubbish.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Sharkn20

[jcp1417]

3 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

You can see the "Prestige" that the league has by clicking in it and find the ranking, the more Prestige the more important and more aids to development.

Friendlies in the B Team or U23 Team is basically rubbish.

Of course, but I'm not asking how to find a league's prestige. I am asking if which is a better place for a player to develop that has League Two ability, on loan to a League 2 club, or in the Premier League 2(U23s)?

Edited January 14, 2020 by jcp1417

[Sharkn20]

13 hours ago, jcp1417 said:

Of course, but I'm not asking how to find a league's prestige. I am asking if which is a better place for a player to develop that has League Two ability, on loan to a League 2 club, or in the Premier League 2(U23s)?

In the one with higher prestige.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Sharkn20

[jcp1417]

4 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

In the one with higher prestige.

i really do appreciate you trying to be helpful, but i'm going to leave my question for someone else. 

 

What is the best way to gauge what level my reserves team is at? The Championship is much better than my reserve league of course, but what about League One or Two, or even the National? I know that players older than 18 should play at an appropriate level. If I loaned each player to their appropriate level, then all of my U23 team would go to a variety of L1, L2, and NL teams. Is the best approach to simply wait for my asst manager to advise me that I should look to loan the player?

[laxrulz7]

On 15/01/2020 at 08:08, jcp1417 said:

i really do appreciate you trying to be helpful, but i'm going to leave my question for someone else. 

 

What is the best way to gauge what level my reserves team is at? The Championship is much better than my reserve league of course, but what about League One or Two, or even the National? I know that players older than 18 should play at an appropriate level. If I loaned each player to their appropriate level, then all of my U23 team would go to a variety of L1, L2, and NL teams. Is the best approach to simply wait for my asst manager to advise me that I should look to loan the player?

I think this will work for you. It's a little cumbersome but it should give you a really good gauge for what you have in mind. Set to scouting assignments. One for the best team in the league you're curious about and one for the worst. Once the scouting assignment is finished, look at the teams and judge their average star rating (you can do this by eye just fine). For a league one tier down from you, it's probably ~2 - 2.5 stars for the best team and 1.5-2 stars for the worst team... so somewhere in that range is what I'd expect though you could have some outliers. 

Then filter to your reserve team and look at where they're at. You want your players to get the most playing time against the best players. So if you're reserve team is ~1.5 stars on average then getting them to play one division down is probably perfect (assuming they're going to get playing time). But playing them in a division with 0.5-1 star players wouldn't help them much. 

I would never wait on my assistant to do this. Far too slow a process. 

One other thing to keep in mind, you want your players playing WITH talented players so if you send out most of your really good prospects and make your youth team crap, any of the prospects you DIDN'T loan out will be hampered by the crappy teammates around them.

[jcp1417]

8 minutes ago, laxrulz7 said:

I think this will work for you. It's a little cumbersome but it should give you a really good gauge for what you have in mind. Set to scouting assignments. One for the best team in the league you're curious about and one for the worst. Once the scouting assignment is finished, look at the teams and judge their average star rating (you can do this by eye just fine). For a league one tier down from you, it's probably ~2 - 2.5 stars for the best team and 1.5-2 stars for the worst team... so somewhere in that range is what I'd expect though you could have some outliers. 

Then filter to your reserve team and look at where they're at. You want your players to get the most playing time against the best players. So if you're reserve team is ~1.5 stars on average then getting them to play one division down is probably perfect (assuming they're going to get playing time). But playing them in a division with 0.5-1 star players wouldn't help them much. 

I would never wait on my assistant to do this. Far too slow a process. 

One other thing to keep in mind, you want your players playing WITH talented players so if you send out most of your really good prospects and make your youth team crap, any of the prospects you DIDN'T loan out will be hampered by the crappy teammates around them.

I actually never considered this. Thanks a lot!

[laxrulz7]

I only noticed it when I failed to loan out a single really hot prospect (all the rest got loaned out) and he stagnated hard. Given that he had high work rate and determination, I presume this was the reason (it's possible his professionalism was a 1 or something but I doubt it). I don't think it's a HUGE factor but it's worth keeping an eye on.