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Takamaru

I can't FM anymore

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It's a bit of a rant but... I've been playing FM18 for about a week now, have about 44 hours on it so can't say I haven't tried my best to get to grips. But I just can't.

I've been playing FM for longer than I'd want to admit (Since late 90's) and I always had a lot of fun. I was able to take a small team and with smart scouting and dealing and difficult seasons I actually managed to get ahead. Even with the lower league teams which are still my favorites. If I am to believe Steam, I've played over 4500 hours of FM (including AFK time), and that's just since FM10, so I've been around. 

However I've realized that ever since the tactics system in FM changed from setting attacking movements with arrows, which worked fine for me, to the current system it's all just gone down the drain in terms of my achievements as well as my enjoyment. I think it's been about 6 years now since the tactics screen changed, and with every edition since then SI have tried to add new features to improve how we can understand how to set up our tactics and analyze.

But it's just too much, too tedious, too many things that can go right or go wrong and no simple (enjoyable) way to do anything with it. I can't get my teams going, I've managed FC United where I got fired after 5 months, and now I'm managing Guiseley where I have won only 2 out of 8 matches even though we're supposed to be mid-field and with a pretty decent team. 

I'm really not a terrible player, at least I didn't use to be. I have gotten pretty frustrated and fun is pretty much gone, unfortunately. I really want to like this game again.

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Yeah I feel the same :/ My first FM  was FM 16 and I was able to make some decent tactics, but now in fm 18, i Just can`t do anything, my players play so terrible.

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It might not necessarily be the game, although that doesn't help sometimes.  Sometimes you just don't find something fun that you did previously.  Happened a few editions ago for me, still enjoy it but it isn't quite the same.  It happens sometimes.

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How can u put 44 hours in to a game and say you can’t play it, within a week lol

 

thats more than i put in to fifa in a month or 2 period..

 

however it is rock solid, but if it wasn’t so hard the game wouldnt make you jump or fist pump when you score, I personally think the mentalities are a bit strange, I was conceding 3 goals every game with my burton save, counter, tight and deepest defensive line with 2 defensive full backs, relying on my playmaker and pacey wingers and striker. I find if you put unsackable on, the game is 80% more enjoyable as you no everything you do leads somewhere.

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3 hours ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

however it is rock solid

And there's me thinking it's easy because I'm playing a simple 4-4-2 and having loads of success.

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4 minutes ago, Ross Ingersoll said:

umm the beta is a week old. If it was that easy to master it wouldnt be worth the money.

Whats wrong with install the game and have fun right away? why the need to serve an apprenticeship sitting through hours of misery? you pay money to have fun and be entertained don't you?

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But that's the thing isn't it? FM is hardly a game anymore, it's a simulation. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to boot it up and have a bit of craic. But it's silly to think you can boot it up and win. I think half the enjoyment of the game is figuring out what you're doing wrong, making adjustments and seeing it pay off. 

 

I had a torrid time at the start of FM17. Usually have saves that last for months but I had started several saves within the first month of 17 because I was fed up I couldn't get anything right. Then I took a step back and got into the nitty gritty of it all and tweaked tactics, managed morale a bit better and was even more careful in the press conferences. It's not a game you can just pick up and start winning things at all. That comes in good time. 

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1 minute ago, Ross Ingersoll said:

I would argue the fact its not simple is fun to many people. if you want something that takes no effort to play the game might not be for you. 

Not that the game takes no effort. I wouldn't want a game that takes no effort either.

 

The issue is clearly people who know about football, who cant get anything to work within the game, and that is squarely the fault of the game and not the people playing it.

The game is just a minefield of confusing, baffling and ridiculous contradictory terminologies that mean absolutely nothing except in FM land, and the "skill" is not in developing a football teams tactics, it seems to be more in decoding and interpreting what some fat programmer in an office put into the game as his interpretation of football.

 

Why not even have a difficulty slider? get people into the game easily wouldn't it? and cut the nonsense jargon out

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play fmt , it cuts out most of the extras. outside of that i guess you just wanted to pout and im far too busy for that so enjoy. 

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I tend to ignore the first 3-4 months of any save in terms of results and tactics, I always feel it will takes a while for the team and you to get going, work out what you are doing etc. 

I think the new dynamics system makes that even more true now as they players barely listen to you at first, I generally expect first season the first 10-15 games at least will a bit up and down as the players get used to the tactics and your management.

I've found after that once you settle on a good tactic, buy good players, work on keeping the morale up then you will generally have decent success. I have never been one of those people who changes tactics all the time or uses different tactics for different matches/teams etc. I might used counter or drop defensive in a game I'm winning or away to massive club but once you are set up and running later seasons I tinker and do far less. 

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So many of these threads from people who think that because they can't instantly be successful then the game is somehow at fault. "But, but I've played CM/FM since year blah blah blah so surely I must be instantly good at this one" etc etc... 

I'm by no means the most knowledgeable person when it comes to football but i still manage to have an immensely enjoyable time playing FM (win lose or draw). The whole point of the (tactical side) of the game is figuring out what works and what doesn't and then implementing that knowledge to suit your team/style etc. When it comes together and starts working FM can be such a rewarding game but that reward is rarely going to be earned right away.

As has been suggested, if you can't deal with the full fat version of the game, try FMT and please, stop blaming the game for your managerial shortcomings.

 

 

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6 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

Not that the game takes no effort. I wouldn't want a game that takes no effort either.

The issue is clearly people who know about football, who cant get anything to work within the game, and that is squarely the fault of the game and not the people playing it.

The game is just a minefield of confusing, baffling and ridiculous contradictory terminologies that mean absolutely nothing except in FM land, and the "skill" is not in developing a football teams tactics, it seems to be more in decoding and interpreting what some fat programmer in an office put into the game as his interpretation of football.

Why not even have a difficulty slider? get people into the game easily wouldn't it? and cut the nonsense jargon out

Aye, if you really want to get your point across, claim the developers know nothing about football and then use a lazy stereotype about them.  Lovely old job.  I'm sure they're in SI Towers as we speak building a shrine to the knowledge of their new underachieving overlord. :rolleyes:

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10 hours ago, Andrew_Goats_Gruff said:

however it is rock solid, but if it wasn’t so hard the game wouldnt make you jump or fist pump when you score.

 

12 hours ago, Takamaru said:

It's a bit of a rant but... I've been playing FM18 for about a week now, have about 44 hours on it so can't say I haven't tried my best to get to grips. But I just can't.

I've been playing FM for longer than I'd want to admit (Since late 90's) and I always had a lot of fun. I was able to take a small team and with smart scouting and dealing and difficult seasons I actually managed to get ahead. Even with the lower league teams which are still my favorites. If I am to believe Steam, I've played over 4500 hours of FM (including AFK time), and that's just since FM10, so I've been around. 

However I've realized that ever since the tactics system in FM changed from setting attacking movements with arrows, which worked fine for me, to the current system it's all just gone down the drain in terms of my achievements as well as my enjoyment. I think it's been about 6 years now since the tactics screen changed, and with every edition since then SI have tried to add new features to improve how we can understand how to set up our tactics and analyze.

But it's just too much, too tedious, too many things that can go right or go wrong and no simple (enjoyable) way to do anything with it. I can't get my teams going, I've managed FC United where I got fired after 5 months, and now I'm managing Guiseley where I have won only 2 out of 8 matches even though we're supposed to be mid-field and with a pretty decent team. 

I'm really not a terrible player, at least I didn't use to be. I have gotten pretty frustrated and fun is pretty much gone, unfortunately. I really want to like this game again.

Going back to FM15 i had a great save going with Brighton and the first few seasons were really exciting with a lot of fist pumping and jumping up and down, but then the team got so good and won everything that when it came to a match it was a case of "will i win 4-0 or 5-0" and i kind of missed the early seasons of nerves. What i'm trying to say is keep plugging away with it because it then makes the moments you do succeed even more sweeter. On FM18 i'm looking forward to the early season struggles again.

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10 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

Not that the game takes no effort. I wouldn't want a game that takes no effort either.

 

The issue is clearly people who know about football, who cant get anything to work within the game, and that is squarely the fault of the game and not the people playing it.

The game is just a minefield of confusing, baffling and ridiculous contradictory terminologies that mean absolutely nothing except in FM land, and the "skill" is not in developing a football teams tactics, it seems to be more in decoding and interpreting what some fat programmer in an office put into the game as his interpretation of football.

 

Why not even have a difficulty slider? get people into the game easily wouldn't it? and cut the nonsense jargon out

And I'm sure you're built like a Greek God mate...

I wouldn't want the slider. There are 'easier' saves (such as playing as Barca and tweaking the editor to give you even more money) and 'harder' such as playing in a the Andorran 175th tier with no money. And everything in between. You just need to find the right save for you. I would die of boredom in an 'easier' save and get massively frustrated in a 'harder' save so I pick something in the middle...

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Been playing since 1992 (Cm Italia!) and still love FM...until FM18.  I clocked up over 3,500 playing time on FM17 and am currently at 70 hours on FM18 but I have parked it and returned to FM17.  Reasons in feedback thread.

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If you feel FM has become more like a job, check out FMT and see how it plays. It is faster and avoids a lot of the details, focusing on tactics and transfers. 

Play FM if you want really a deep and well-rounded simulation with in depth squad management, scouting, staff management, and information.

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I didn't buy the game yet. Therefore,  I can't play the FM 18 beta? 

We used to be able to play the demo before game came out. We can't now?

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1 minute ago, CiMB0M said:

I didn't buy the game yet. Therefore,  I can't play the FM 18 beta? 

We used to be able to play the demo before game came out. We can't now?

Demo =/ Beta

The Demo will come out later and you will be able to play it.

Beta is a different thing.

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Just now, CiMB0M said:

I didn't buy the game yet. Therefore,  I can't play the FM 18 beta? 

We used to be able to play the demo before game came out. We can't now?

The Demo isn't the Beta. The Beta is the full version before release.... in Beta stage. The demo is a demo of the released product. The demo will be available either at release or shortly after.

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5 minutes ago, Per Annum said:

Demo =/ Beta

The Demo will come out later and you will be able to play it.

Beta is a different thing.

 

Shouldn't demo come earlier than the full game? At least, it used to be that way. 

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The demo comes before you're obliged to buy the full game yes, in that you're not obliged to buy it.

I'm never shy to criticise SI but the actual release calendar (alone) isn't worthy of criticism imo.

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Football Manager is about living the fantasy of being an actual football manager, i don't understand why people treat it as a "press continue simulator"

 

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On topic/off topic. Those who suggest FMT, why are we still doing this? FMT has the same match engine, the issue here isn't time, but the match engine dealing with tactics. So FMT is going to be the same.

Just putting it out there, FMT is not the answer to this complaint.

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Just now, wetfred said:

I've been playing long enough to know it takes a few patches before it's playable.

I'm already playing my one and only save for this version, so this isn't true at all. Wasn't for FM17 or even 16 either.

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7 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm already playing my one and only save for this version, so this isn't true at all. Wasn't for FM17 or even 16 either.

Same here. I have never used one of the patches and apart from the odd minor gripe I've been perfectly happy (apart from when I'm losing... :lol: ). As with any game, it's massively subjective,

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I relate a bit to the OP in that I used to get a lot of enjoyment out of overperforming with lower league sides, but can't manage to do so anymore since FM 16. 

I used to feel like a manager god for promoting many terrible teams with tactics always created by me, but now I think I didn't gain promotion even once in the last two FMs.

The main issue for me isn't the losing, but the fact that I lose despite outplaying the other team in chances created and possession almost every time. Even if I play with a bad team, a defensive tactic and try to win with counters, the result is always my team with 56%-57% possession, playing mostly in the other team's half of the pitch, and losing while conceding 1 or 2 shots on goal. Maybe I should just give up trying to promote stupid weston-super-mare.

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I've said it many times and I'll say it once again. The game is too difficult to play how it is officially expected to be played. Expect a regular player to watch a match, spot what's wrong and fix it is simply unrealistic. You have to understand the logics of the ME, which, after 2 years of constant trying and 15 years of fm experience, I can't do. But that doesn't mean you can't play the game.

You can choose other ways to play the game:

a) Lower your expectations, set a simple tactic with no obvious mistakes and play. Results will come and go, you'll feel the game is playing with you instead you playing the game but, after all, you can play it somehow.

b) Download a tactic.

c) Go on holiday during matches.

 

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It's far too easy in it's present form, even with the most basic of tactics. Perhaps FM should add arrows to that dumbed down 'touch' version and strip out some more of the detail for it too. Might persuade a lot of people who bought FM to buy a more appropriate version for their level.

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14 minutes ago, LCpl said:

It's far too easy in it's present form, even with the most basic of tactics. Perhaps FM should add arrows to that dumbed down 'touch' version and strip out some more of the detail for it too. Might persuade a lot of people who bought FM to buy a more appropriate version for their level.

Perhaps it's easy for you, for me is imposible to read the ME. I just request to be a bit commiserative with people struggling. 

Saying it's very easy to people struggling is not a very good call, I guess... I can say this is the most difficult game I have ever played, it's extremely hard to understand the logic of the ME. I'm sure I'll never be able to understand it and so other people. Don't be harsh with people failing, don't say, please, the game is easy, because it is certainly not.

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Just now, looping said:

Perhaps it's easy for you, for me is imposible to read the ME. I just request to be a bit commiserative with people struggling. 

Saying it's very easy to people struggling is not a very good call, I guess... I can say this is the most difficult game I have ever played, it's extremely hard to understand the logic of the ME. I'm sure I'll never be able to understand it and so other people. Don't be harsh with people failing, don't say, please, the game is easy, because it is certainly not.

Well, it's subjective, it's not a question of being a good call, on account of being an opinion to which we are each entitled. Nor it it a question of empathy or sympathy, neither is appropriate. I too have struggled over the years at times and have sought knowledge and guidance from the multitude of threads both here and on the various blog and fansites.

I'm not finding difficult. There's nothing wrong with saying that. Were I to find it difficult I'd be asking questions in the tactics forum, or reading the seasoned words of the likes of Cleon or Rashidi or observing the various youtube streamers. That said, I've done plenty of those things whilst toying with the beta, learned a lot, realised that some things are simpler than they seem and, most recently, realised that my understanding of mentality and structure were all wrong. I'm finding it challenging in places, but I'm lso finding it too easy overall in the context of the AI not being as challenging as it might in all area's.

I find some of the UI a tad laggy or simply has too many steps, I find some of the match engine annoying, equally I find it difficult sometimes to accept defeats or understand them, but in each of those instances I look to see if it's been reported or discussed and move on from there with new information or add to the discussion.

I'm not belittling you, I'm not dismissing your disatisfaction, I'm just lending balance to the debate in the form of personal opinion based on current experience. :thup:

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21 hours ago, Takamaru said:

It's a bit of a rant but... I've been playing FM18 for about a week now, have about 44 hours on it so can't say I haven't tried my best to get to grips. But I just can't.

I've been playing FM for longer than I'd want to admit (Since late 90's) and I always had a lot of fun. I was able to take a small team and with smart scouting and dealing and difficult seasons I actually managed to get ahead. Even with the lower league teams which are still my favorites. If I am to believe Steam, I've played over 4500 hours of FM (including AFK time), and that's just since FM10, so I've been around. 

However I've realized that ever since the tactics system in FM changed from setting attacking movements with arrows, which worked fine for me, to the current system it's all just gone down the drain in terms of my achievements as well as my enjoyment. I think it's been about 6 years now since the tactics screen changed, and with every edition since then SI have tried to add new features to improve how we can understand how to set up our tactics and analyze.

But it's just too much, too tedious, too many things that can go right or go wrong and no simple (enjoyable) way to do anything with it. I can't get my teams going, I've managed FC United where I got fired after 5 months, and now I'm managing Guiseley where I have won only 2 out of 8 matches even though we're supposed to be mid-field and with a pretty decent team. 

I'm really not a terrible player, at least I didn't use to be. I have gotten pretty frustrated and fun is pretty much gone, unfortunately. I really want to like this game again.

I can semi relate to this post - I used to get home from work and enjoy smashing 7 bells out of teams on CM3 all night. But I much prefer the current setup where I have to give a little thought to each game and react to situations. I don't get to play anywhere near as much as I used to but my mind may still drift off to my players and possible tactics (especially if the wife and kids are nagging me about something or other) 

I agree, it often doesn't feel like a game, but again, I love the immersion and the feeling when you score a last minute winner because (or despite) of the changes you've made makes it all sweeter because of the effort that's required

I know the OP's problem was tactics so FMT is not really the solution but I switched to it for FM17 and it breathed a whole new life for FM for me. It's not 'dumbed down' as someone suggested a couple of posts up - often it can be a bit harder in certain situations ie half time when my players have been playing like zombies, I can't lash into them but have to use tactics instead

I hope the OP reads a few of the tactic forum and give some ideas a go. Alternatively, I sometimes fire up FM10 where I was all conquering with Yeovil and have a bit of fun blasting teams away without much effort!

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This may sound premature, but the OP sounds just like that kind of player that the previous versions (sliders, arrows) have prevented form actually learning what the game is really about.

Those arrows so craved for didn't actually do what many perceived them to do. Those weren't encouragements to make runs. They made players occupy fixed positions as soon as possession of the ball changed no matter what. That was problematic in several ways. Basically, you could turn every bad player into Thomas Müller to simplify, no matter his off the ball ability. Secondly, it was revealed how a portion of the player base really utilized them, which is drawing a few creative combinations that the defending wouldn't cope with. That wasn't management, that was gaming the system. You could have played this for like half a decade, and still not learned anything about how the game really "clicked" or worked, which is perhaps the best reason why they're out. Arguably, there's still a large proportion of the user base that still doesn't understand what kind of questions the game actually poses, and which answers you can give to it. Heck, there is a portion of the user base being under the spell that the difference in "tactics" alone would be relegation battle or scoring 3 goals with poor teams each match. The reasons of which are plenty, and each of them is more unfortunate than the last.

So there is three options now.
1) Downloads
2) Assistant managers. If you think they don't perform, they can. They're in for a reason, plus there is evidence real life managers work with "tactical" assistants too. What they won'T do however, is taken any pish poor side immediately to the top (see above). Your competition, which are all AI managers, won't do much with them either. In fact, with a poor/average side, you may on occasion struggle for results, as that's football management. Anything else is a win button.
3) Heading over to the tactics forum. However, if you can't think "football in simple football terms, for instance, where is an opposition the most vulnerable when defending in flat lines, how to protect from a counter attack, where on the pitch is it easier for players to find space / control possession (deep or high up, where all the opposition defenders are), how to cover the attacking runs of your attacking full back, you have a huge learning curve ahead. Depending on which, this could be like really "playing" Fm for the first time. That's precisely the kind of questions the game has asked you all along though. The sliders/arrows may have prevented you from seeing them, and if you ask such questions but fail to translate it all into the current UI, raise it to SI as to why. As answering the simpler of those does plenty...... no less because of your AI opponents who aren't Mourinho either, and also the balance SI tries to struck between tactics and player ability/squad development. Basic rule of the thumb, you have to do all kinds of fishy typically to get sides to consistently underperform purely on that tactical front, and there is evidence for that all over YouTube, where guys perform decently despite not being at the level of the tactical hardcore, and even the top AI managers still being somewhat inconsistent.

 

@looping for instance has shown to achieve some stuff on the occasion that I would struggle to achieve, despite he has weird ideas about football in general in my opinion, which will be always unfortunate. This is a football simulation game. In some areas it does a better job, in some worse -- in the best ones, you can  gain some added understanding by following generally more advanced football media than Match Of The Day (blogs outlinining how football matches are analyzed, stats pages, tactical blogs, even though the game in many areas is actually comparably limited in terms of tactical options/scope). You  can either way embrace that, or you don't, but that's what it is. There's still options that turn this closer to a "press continue to win" kind of game -- I'll leave it to you to find them, the community discovers them each year. I personally think they are unfortunate, not merely due to multiplayer, but the reasons outlined above. If you force it though, you'll face madness, rage-quit and despair. And if you don't have much interest in tactics in the first place, not trying the assistants (or downloads) is madness.

Edited by Svenc

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The fact is not a win button... Although I certainly achieved some results, honestly, my last save went wrong too and my current save in fm18 is a complete disaster (I'll be sacked in a couple of matches and I will show I'm not lying ;) ).

The point is the feeling the game is not under control. Ignoring why lose or win. It's press the button and pray.

The oficial way to play the game is watch matches, spot issues and fix them. Ok, you don't need this to play with decent success, but at the cost of:

a) Being sacked quite often

b) Underpeforming most of the time

c) Ignoring why you lose or win

In the best scenario (ignoring why losing or winning), the same happens if you download a tactic, which is another way of cheating, or if you go assman. It's not you who plays the game. You can go self-deception but at some point you realize it's not you who is winning (or losing),you are not influencing the game. Press button and pray in any case.

Then you have to descent to the ME, where most of the people struggle. And they (me) obviously struggle because it's very very hard to read the ME. Insanely difficult unless you have an special talent. And if you don't understand the ME, you don't understand the game. Results will come and go, you can even win trophies but that feeling of being alien to the game doesn't leave.

 

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6 minutes ago, looping said:

Then you have to descent to the ME, where most of the people struggle. And they (me) obviously struggle because it's very very hard to read the ME. Insanely difficult unless you have an special talent. And if you don't understand the ME, you don't understand the game. Results will come and go, you can even win trophies but that feeling of being alien to the game doesn't leave.

I can understand that, and in my opinion a better in-game tutorial would be an ideal thing. Explaining not just the mechanics, but the animations, or to give an example of phases of play, and say "This is what the engine is representing to you, in general."

Doesn't matter if people don't use it, just having something like that there is a good thing. The forums are good, but I am a firm believer that the information and tutorials should be in-game. 

 

I also think though, that a lot of problems arise as a matter of not tempering expectations. People seem to want to win every game, or they build a tactic to assault the opposition as if they're expected to win, when they maybe need to be more realistic and reserved. I can understand why though, it's a 'game', people turn off their expectations and drift into fantasy land, which is fine if you have a grasp of the engine etc, but not if you don't.

 

18 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

he issue is clearly people who know about football, who cant get anything to work within the game, and that is squarely the fault of the game and not the people playing it.

 

Thing is, I'd argue it is the opposite. A lot of people haven't a clue about football outside of cliched sayings. A lot of people build their tactics to be far, far too aggressive, or misshapen or screwy and think it makes logical sense. A lot of people who play FM are basically Garth Crooks, picking his team of the week with 3 centre backs, 5 attacking midfielders and two out and out strikers. And they wonder why that causes 50+ shots, but they end up on the end of a hiding.

The game itself has contributed a lot with some of the language it uses, but really, its people who are still relying on outdated information (see: EVERYONE is injured in pre-season cos we set training to HEAVY and FITNESS), or people who think Sky Sports are genuine when they say team A is lining up in a 4-2-3-1, when it might actually be more of a 4-4-1-1 or a genuine 4-2DM-3-1 instead.

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You don't need to understand the ME, loop. The ME tries its best to give off the impression of a football match, some worse, some better. The only guys that need to understand the ME are the coders, as its their job to balance and fix bugs. You therefore need to understand football and translate it into the game UI, that's it. That's the official way of playing. Well, one of it... As you have shown, loop, you are the kind of player who struggles with each, and the game cannot help you with that. It speaks volumes that you still get those result, but I will say no more on that as nothing ever added up here. The OPs problem to me seems like getting to grips with the new UI. Plus discovering that after the arrows were no more, which allowed for creative solutions circumventing tactical planning, and player development, he has now to think differently/holistically. Simply drawing arrows to get players into fixed positions and thus repeat patterns of play is no more. Same as he's on a more level playing field. I could be wrong, naturally. But yeah.

Whilst we're talking arrows: One thing they were good for, and where the current UI/options fail naturally is given more control and feedback, some perceived, some actual, over the attacking / defensive shape of sides. For some, that was all that was needed so that they felt a more immediate connection between their input -- and the game's output. Easily the area that needs the biggest work in the UI, imo.

Edited by Svenc

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15 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Whilst we're talking arrows: One thing they were good for, and where the current UI/options fail naturally is given more control, some perceived, some actual, over the attacking / defensive shape of sides. For some, that was all that was needed so that they felt a connection between their input -- and the game's output.

That's exactly what I'm missing and the arrows allowed. Creating a defensive and offensive formation. At least that's how I had always interpreted the arrows, not as strict paths. I feel over the past few years, that I can tell a midfielder to get forward more, but it's hit and miss to know exactly where he'll go.

To provide a more constructive feedback I could imagine a tactics screen where we can set a formation for off the ball and one with possession. Also, instead of having fixed locations that the players snap to, there are blocks/zones that indicate the general type of player (DL, DC, CM, AMR etc.) but to be able to place the player anywhere within that box to create a more custom formation that (most importantly) gives us more visual cues.

It'll also allow some tactical fun placing your players more smartly based on the oppositions formation and movements.

Edited by Takamaru

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23 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

There's very little difference between the tactical options in FM16 to this one. It was only two editions ago, man :lol:

I meant the difficulty haha.

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12 hours ago, JohnMatrix316 said:

So many of these threads from people who think that because they can't instantly be successful then the game is somehow at fault. "But, but I've played CM/FM since year blah blah blah so surely I must be instantly good at this one" etc etc... 

I'm by no means the most knowledgeable person when it comes to football but i still manage to have an immensely enjoyable time playing FM (win lose or draw). The whole point of the (tactical side) of the game is figuring out what works and what doesn't and then implementing that knowledge to suit your team/style etc. When it comes together and starts working FM can be such a rewarding game but that reward is rarely going to be earned right away.

As has been suggested, if you can't deal with the full fat version of the game, try FMT and please, stop blaming the game for your managerial shortcomings.

 

 

I played half a season with the beta, was lying 3rd in the league and playing well but just didn't have any fun with it.  This is by far the worst and most unintuitive FM yet.  18 matches in and I got to the point of just being bored to death by it so I uninstalled, refunded and am now having fun with my FM2016 save in my 38th season and will spend the money on an actual game that is fun to play.  I didn't buy FM 2017 and I'm not buying this one.  It's sad really, like watching an old friend die a slow and lingering death.  Unless something radical changes in next years offering then FM is no longer an annual consideration for me.

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4 hours ago, Svenc said:

You therefore need to understand football and translate it into the game

This is not very true... Actually, this is  misleading  for a beginner, IMO.

You don't need to know anything about football to play FM (not my words... more tan 1 mod here say so). FM is about following a certain logic of things which is totally alien to me. The most important things, in my opinión, of football are totally ignored. They don't exist. It seems to me like another sport.

There are many things absolutely basic things that you can't control. And the opposite: many things IRL are totally imposible to control that are completely crucial to manage inF FM.

In my humble opinión, the best anyone struggling can do is set something decent and then watch how it goes. If his/her logic matches with FM, he/she may gain knowledge and improve but don't think much about football, until you know the logic of the game and can follow it. Otherwise, it's hitting against a Wall.ç

4 hours ago, Takamaru said:

That's exactly what I'm missing and the arrows allowed. Creating a defensive and offensive formation.

Well, this can be observed during a match. Stop at a random moment in the attacking phase and you'll see your attacking formation. If you don't like, change the role and look again. For instance, a fullback on attack duty becomes a winger during attacking phase: is that what you want? 

4 hours ago, Takamaru said:

t'll also allow some tactical fun placing your players more smartly based on the oppositions formation and movements.

FM doesn't use positions, uses roles&duties. Every role draws an arrow where is going to move during the attacking phase. The duty makes the player follow the arrow sooner and quicker (attack duty) or later. The lenght of the arrow also depends on the role and duty

For instance:

abOkXogajF.png
Make your football formation with this11.com

This is your defensive formation. But when attacking:

abOkXqEao2.png
Use this11.com for drawing your football tactics

Basically, your players have followed the arrows the role draws. And they will do it sooner or later according to their duty.

Edited by looping

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4 hours ago, looping said:

This is not very true... Actually, this is  misleading  for a beginner, IMO.

You don't need to know anything about football to play FM (not my words... more tan 1 mod here say so). FM is about following a certain logic of things which is totally alien to me. The most important things, in my opinión, of football are totally ignored. They don't exist. It seems to me like another sport


The Nonsense Game: Why much of what you get to read about FM on the internet is wrong.

I'd like to see this, because that mod is talking trash. Technically, it is true. Everything else is precisely the problem. Every player I have ever seen majorly struggling with this has weird ideas about football -- or, at the very least, ones that completely are at odds with how the game models it. This also goes for injuries, @isignedupfornorealreason brought up, too. The game has now included a couple better feedback, but still half the "bugs" forum is filled with SI employees having to point out that three quarters of the stuff reported as bug is partly research (long-term injured entered into the db first season) or football. Mostly, less than that, as due to popular demand, they tweak this to be at -20% off real-life injury rates. In a football simulation game, which prompts players who prefere the "more realistic" experience to try to increase their rates providing injury files. You have quit saves because your average at best side concedes goals that are totally in line with numbers that such side concede. You have opened threads wondering about streaks when streaks happen in football all the time, which, if you followed it a tiny bit, you would be aware of them. You were on the verge of quitting saves as you couldn't yet break into the very top of an unbalanced league that has multiple sides at the start of a save completely crowning over anybody else. You perceived results as getting worse when there was no evidence for that to show, as apparently you (initially) didn't understand that with football results typically being close ones, +/-10 odd points can be completely down to bad and good fortunes on the final tables. There is evidence, in football either way, that it can be plenty more. You targeted defensive records, yet never even went with the most obvious on any level of sports, which is parking much men behind the ball and packing your own area rather than sending half the side upfield. Half of your idea of defending is getting rid of the ball as soon as possible, when in any sports that is precisely which triggers the next attack of your opponent promptly.

You have described watching match play in this as "All I see is cross, cross goal" barely a year ago, despite the match play being arguably more rigid than the fluid stuff on an actual football pitch. You have uploaded pkms wondering what was going on when it was obvious from the ratings your keeper had a nightmare. You have uploaded pkms arguing you were getting totally outplayed, when your opposition barely got inside of your box. You have sold MUCH SUPERIOR forwards because he was going on a dry spell without even looking at his actual shot conversion rates or watching such streaks in real football which come about all itself as forwards on average only convert about every fifth attempt they take, whilst most of them have but two of them each game. You have started (and quit) saves with the intention of targeting completely 1-0 1-0 1-0 fantasy results because it should be possible in-game. You argue you appreciate the randomness inherent to football, but in-game only appreciate it if it goes for you -- and right here argue again for added control, when real life managers are dealing in a few probabilities at best. Despite it all, which says much about this game, you have taken mid-table sides into the Champions League, consistently (which perhaps is part of the problem.) If there is anything alien here, it is not the game -- and if it is, you couldn't tell. Rest assured there is stuff in this that indeed isn't much like football, but you're in the worst position to judge. I'm putting this as strongly as can, and making this public, as what you say here is no use for anybody. It's utterly absurd. If you think "the most important things in football are ignored" by the game, you should raise them to SI. I have never seen you outlining them. Actually, I'b be fascinated to read about them myself. If they would be ignored, surely it speaks to reason that you can't get enjoyment. It's also no wonder why you continue to have a clash with anybody in the tactical forums, as everybody either follows the game's model of football -- or has adapted to it. After all, there is limitations, idiosyncrasies, "FM language" and more. Simply having that continous moan and spreading such nonsense (which you did before) surely won't fix it, will it?


Managing expectations.

It's actually the challenge SI face. It's the challenge the mods more recent faced in numerous threads : "Managing expectations." SI try to make a simulation game of a sports, which means their player base is at best be aware with some of the traits of it --- and some of the bad myth circulating around it, also perpetuated by TV punditry every day. One thing I am glad was introduced to some of television was the Expected Goals metric, as it that should explain a few the dreaded "40 shots 1 goal" matches -- too bad FM doesn't approach something similar, as from watching such matches in-game barely come about because a side is creating consistently decent chances. With the decent chances being consistently failed to put away on any level of play too. It thus doesn't help to have no actually "realistic" benchmarks, as THAT is running into a wall: if you don't have any, you are aiming for fantasy, which is frustration guaranteed. Legacy code also means that in particular older releases created "false expectations", which is a challenge too. Easy to go seasons conceding less than 10 goals due to weak AI nad ME flaws, and several more. That's not the long-term aim though.



That said, pretty good explanation of the roles and duties! That's about it though. :thup: Perhaps this may share some insights. It's an interview I recently found with SI's Nik Madden, part of the QA/ME team. It's not only interesting due to the talk about the game and what the aim is. It may be also be revealing to see some how SI staff approach the game on that tactical front -- which may be simpler than many think.
 

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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5 hours ago, Svenc said:

'd like to see this, because that mod is talking trash.

Obviously, I won't find the quote but it's stickied in my brain and I can tell you who precisely was and the context. I'm sure he is not talking trash, he is a highly (top 2) respected fmer and knows things under the Hood that probably you and for sure me ignore. I insist: translating football into fm, for a beginner or someone who is struggling, it's not the best idea if you are not used to the ME and its logic.

 

5 hours ago, Svenc said:

If you think "the most important things in football are ignored" by the game, you should raise them to SI. I have never seen you outlining them. Actually, I'b be fascinated to read about them myself. If they would be ignored, surely it speaks to reason that you can't get enjoyment

I precisely told you. Specifically to you and recently too. I even told you where my idea comes from and why. 

Wouldn't be fair to the OP to hijack the thread so I won't post it here. If anyone is interested (which I certainly don't expect) I can explain it.

 

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7 minutes ago, looping said:

Wouldn't be fair to the OP to hijack the thread so I won't post it here. If anyone is interested (which I certainly don't expect) I can explain it.

 

A thread to explain it wouldn't be the worst idea. Yeah, I know, there's a handful of extremist views and polar opposites as the nature of a forum with so many kiddies and people that live in their bedrooms, but it's also useful for the community and developers to hear from all angles. The threads that tend to implode are the less-than-constructive tantrums of such transparency as warrant a certain kind of response.

If it's a tactical or ME discussion, it's worth sharing in that forum because a constructive explanation of what you want to achieve or can't replicate or perhaps feel isn't represented can be discussed, with input - no doubt - from the likes of Cleon or Rashidi and the community at large. Certain elements of the discussion are likely even to be answered by SI 'engine' folk. The game doesn't improve unless there's discussion, nor do we. So ignore the keyboard warriors, of which these forums have many, and start the discussion. I'm certainly enjoying FM more having learned from various people and find it easier to understand and play as a result.

I've been watching WorkTheSpace on YouTube this year and his utter disregard for natural positions or symmetry had me gagging, but his streamed Liverpool game results have very quickly had me changing my misconceptions. My formations and expected movement or starting positions have adjusted (corrected :D) based on a Cleon post at Tea & Busquets about the 4231 formation because he exactly noted all the problems I had in FM17 with it's instability in defence.

Share your thoughts. In the ensuing discussion we may all learn something, developers included.

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