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I'm trying to build a replica of Pep's Man City 4-1-4-1 with inverted wingbacks but I'm just not having much success. I feel like the shape should look like more of a 2-3-2-3 in possesssion but it's not quite right. The CMs don't push far enough forward and the wingbacks are either on top of the DLP or too far forward. When out of possession the CMs aren't working hard enough to press or support the defence but if I change them both to support roles then they play too deep.

My current tactic is below:

- Very Fluid

- Control

- Higher

- Wider

- Work Ball into Box

- Exploit Both Flanks

* Wingers and CMs instructed to push further forward to make room for the wingbacks to move into midfield.

SK ( s )

IWB ( s )

CD ( d )

CD ( d )

IWB ( d )

DLP (d)

W ( a )

MEZ ( s )

MEZ ( a )

W ( a )

AF ( a )

Any ideas?

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

There is already a thread about it.

 

I saw that.

 

looks like that person is trying to recreate a different tactic as they aren't using inverted wingbacks.

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29 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The set up is exactly the same, all Guardiola does is change the role of the full backs if he wants to overload the midfield 

He changes more than that actually.

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1 minute ago, yonko said:

He changes more than that actually.

We can talk about the wide players too if you want to get pedantic. The point is the concept is essentially the same. 

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The 4141 and Pep especially, I doubt there are many around who understand his current set up better than  @themadsheep2001which is surprising seeing as he's a United fan :D

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

We can talk about the wide players too if you want to get pedantic. The point is the concept is essentially the same. 

Are we gonna call each other names now?

You said all he changes is the role of the fullbacks, which is not accurate.

Pep changes more roles. He changes mentality too. He micro manages a lot on the sideline during games.

The concept is to dominate the ball and win while playing attractive style. He does and changes what he has to in order to achieve that in every game.

 

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1 minute ago, Cleon said:

The 4141 and Pep especially, I doubt there are many around who understand his current set up better than  @themadsheep2001which is surprising seeing as he's a United fan :D

I see how much he understands. He will understand better on Dec 10. :D;)

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30 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The 4141 and Pep especially, I doubt there are many around who understand his current set up better than  @themadsheep2001which is surprising seeing as he's a United fan :D

Pep and I go way back :D Favourite midfielder alongside Scholes. 

 

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Pep and I go way back :D Favourite midfielder alongside Scholes. 

 

Pep played alongside Scholes? Who knew!

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2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Pep and I go way back :D Favourite midfielder alongside Scholes. 

 

Surprising. But, eh, at least we can agree about the Scholesy bit :D

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This is how 4141DM would look like after following my own tactical guide

 

 

 

 

Worcester City_  Overview-3.png

 

Edited by herne79
removed download link

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On ‎02‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 20:12, themadsheep2001 said:

Pep and I go way back :D Favourite midfielder alongside Scholes. 

 

Any ideas for recreating his current use of inverted wingbacks?

 

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 00:07, Gorstak said:

This is how 4141DM would look like after following my own tactical guide

 

 

 

 

Worcester City_  Overview-3.png

 

I'm not sure this is what I'm looking for as I'm only after a 4-1-4-1 as a starting point or when defending. I want a 2-3-2-3 in possession.

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On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 00:07, Gorstak said:

This is how 4141DM would look like after following my own tactical guide

If you want to share a tactic please use the Tactics Sharing Centre at the top of this forum.

On ‎03‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 06:22, antbonc said:

I'm not sure this is what I'm looking for as I'm only after a 4-1-4-1 as a starting point or when defending. I want a 2-3-2-3 in possession.

It's not a starting point other than the basic formation.

If you want a 2-3-2-3 in possession have a think about using player roles and duties which will move the players into such a shape when attacking.  The formation you pick is your formation when defending:- so if 4-1-4-1 when defending, how do you see players move into a 2-3-2-3 when attacking.

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Pep 4141? Nah I don't think so. His teams press high up the pitch. It makes more sense to go for 4123 (433) imo. You can actually still get a 4141 sort of shape if your AML/AMR have support duties. 

Also he doesn't usually play with 2 inverted wingbacks, against bigger teams he does seem to to overload the centre of the park. But against most sides he will usually have one wingback providing width. 

 

 

Edited by NabsKebabs

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I'm trying to play something similar in League 1 with Peterborough. This is my current set up. I have high possession but not so many Clear Cut Chances. What would you change?

iQfat0L.png

 

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12 minutes ago, BillHoudini24 said:

I'm trying to play something similar in League 1 with Peterborough. This is my current set up. I have high possession but not so many Clear Cut Chances. What would you change?

iQfat0L.png

 

I’d change the striker to a CF-S/DLF-S so that he links up with your midfield and draws defenders out of position.

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On 11/3/2017 at 06:22, antbonc said:

Any ideas for recreating his current use of inverted wingbacks?

 

I'm not sure this is what I'm looking for as I'm only after a 4-1-4-1 as a starting point or when defending. I want a 2-3-2-3 in possession.

I'll have something of substance when i start my proper save on release, but essentially he is using the IWB to add bodies to the midfield, allow him midfield dominance.

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The tactics system in FM can't really recreate an accurate version of what Pep does.

If you do you research you'll find he's a big fan of the "lanes" approach:

  • In the first two thirds of the pitch his teams always stay in their lanes (vertical sections of the pitch) and are not allowed to move out of them, this is actually similar to playing with a "very structured" mentality.
  • While they can't move out of their lanes they can push up the pitch, essentially creating passing triangle by moving defensive players up the pitch and into lanes between the midfielders, hence his love of ball playing defenders.
  • In the final third of the pitch his team play completely fluidly and are encouraged to be creative and ignore their lanes, this is similar to switching to "very fluid" but only in the final third.

Henry famously explained the system at Barcelona, complaining that he was required to remain in his lane on the hand side until the final third of the pitch, he felt he wasn't getting the ball and came inside to find it, he subsequently picked up the ball near the halfway line near the centre of the pitch, beat about 4 players and scored an amazing goal...Pep immediately took him off. 

People forget that he plays an incredibly structured game with no freedom at all....until the final third, where it's a free-for-all. 

 

Edited by FuSS

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3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I'll have something of substance when i start my proper save on release, but essentially he is using the IWB to add bodies to the midfield, allow him midfield dominance.

Have you tried the double IWB yet?

Not sure if it’s been used much this season .....

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2 hours ago, FuSS said:

The tactics system in FM can't really recreate an accurate version of what Pep does.

If you do you research you'll find he's a big fan of the "lanes" approach:

  • In the first two thirds of the pitch his teams always stay in their lanes (vertical sections of the pitch) and are not allowed to move out of them, this is actually similar to playing with a "very structured" mentality.
  • While they can't move out of their lanes they can push up the pitch, essentially creating passing triangle by moving defensive players up the pitch and into lanes between the midfielders, hence his love of ball playing defenders.
  • In the final third of the pitch his team play completely fluidly and are encouraged to be creative and ignore their lanes, this is similar to switching to "very fluid" but only in the final third.

Henry famously explained the system at Barcelona, complaining that he was required to remain in his lane on the hand side until the final third of the pitch, he felt he wasn't getting the ball and came inside to find it, he subsequently picked up the ball near the halfway line near the centre of the pitch, beat about 4 players and scored an amazing goal...Pep immediately took him off. 

People forget that he plays an incredibly structured game with no freedom at all....until the final third, where it's a free-for-all. 

 

I agree, this is very true.

I want to add regarding the vertical lanes, the positional structure he requires from players IRL also means no playmaking roles. Because in FM players given playmaking roles are automatically drawn to the ball. Pep's style is such a fine line between completely opposite tools we have in FM to use. 

That is why we can only pick certain aspects to replicate from his style and not everything. We just have to play with what we have in FM.

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2 hours ago, yonko said:

I agree, this is very true.

I want to add regarding the vertical lanes, the positional structure he requires from players IRL also means no playmaking roles. Because in FM players given playmaking roles are automatically drawn to the ball. Pep's style is such a fine line between completely opposite tools we have in FM to use. 

That is why we can only pick certain aspects to replicate from his style and not everything. We just have to play with what we have in FM.

Which bits would you prioritise/be willing to sacrifice then @yonko :sega:

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3 hours ago, Fritz13 said:

Which bits would you prioritise/be willing to sacrifice then @yonko :sega:

Well I think it is obvious that we cannot replicate the split of 2/3 structured and 1/3 fluidity. And we can't replicate the vertical lanes part.

Certain players under Pep are clearly playmakers with more freedom than others. He just uses playmakers differently than what FM interprets them as. In certain areas they are closer to each other and the ball, while in other areas they are split further apart and stick to lanes. It's like they switch in and out of their playmaking roles. 

Pep's style is one of the most complicated to replicate in FM because the game, as realistic as it is, doesn't use triggers for plays (and pressing).

Personally I choose to go with Structured shape, playmakers, roaming, retain possession, play out of defense, high pressing.

It's funny how Pep is back en vogue though. So many people want to replicate his Man City side, just like they did with Bayern and Barca a few years ago.

With risk to start a whole another debate/discussions, I feel like the very old wibble/wobble (with/without the ball) tactical system could do a good job replicating his vertical lanes and split structure parts of his style. We could position the players wherever we wanted in different sectors of the pitch. However that FM tactical system would be limited in terms of roles and instructions.

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as you’ve said is half the issue -the idea that FM can 100% replicate real life tactics and an approach .....took me a while to get that simple concept :seagull:

once you realise that isn’t possible it hopefully makes the game easier - @fmFutbolManager Posted something similar on the “are tactic easier this year” thread.

once city lose 2 on the spin then there will be no interest in this so we can then expect a deluge of the “ Hodgson palace 5-5-0” threads :ackter:

Edited by Fritz13

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While we can’t create these tactics using the settings in the Tactics Creator, has anyone tried being innovative with PPMs? Thinking of Pep, players need to be taught his philosophy rather than just be given basic instructions. 

My thinking would be using wingers with the “gets into opposition area PI”. The winger role would ensure he stayed wide for as long as possible in build up play and not cutting inside as the IF and Raumdeuter do. However, when he is close enough to the penalty box so an inside run would be worthwhile, hopefully that’s when the PPM would kick in?

And going off on a slight tangent, aren’t most real life tactics down to work on the training ground? Equating to learning PPMs in FM? It’s why true tactical replication isn’t possible in FM as you simply won’t have the identical distribution of attributes and traits in your squad. 

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17 minutes ago, AFCBeer said:

While we can’t create these tactics using the settings in the Tactics Creator, has anyone tried being innovative with PPMs? Thinking of Pep, players need to be taught his philosophy rather than just be given basic instructions. 

My thinking would be using wingers with the “gets into opposition area PI”. The winger role would ensure he stayed wide for as long as possible in build up play and not cutting inside as the IF and Raumdeuter do. However, when he is close enough to the penalty box so an inside run would be worthwhile, hopefully that’s when the PPM would kick in?

And going off on a slight tangent, aren’t most real life tactics down to work on the training ground? Equating to learning PPMs in FM? It’s why true tactical replication isn’t possible in FM as you simply won’t have the identical distribution of attributes and traits in your squad. 

Yups that's how I did the Arsenal Invincible tactic, it was all PPM based to recreate the type of movement needed.

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On 04. 11. 2017. at 16:13, herne79 said:

The formation you pick is your formation when defending

not quite:

the formation is simply the starting/average position during the match, where the players move from here in terms of attacking and defensive shape is heavily defined by their roles.

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