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9 hours ago, Jommelb said:

I'll show you my struggles in the video below. A little context:

Mentality: Control (sometimes standard), shape: fluid   TI: Shorter passing, play out of defense, sometimes more wide.

Formation

GK (d)

WB (a)----CD (d)------CD (d)--------WB (s)

                    Anchorman (d)

          CM (a)                     CM (o)

W(o)                                                 IF (a) (PI:stay wider)

                          DLF (a)

How I want to play: control the game, have possession, create chances.

Ways to attack:

1. Crosses from the right side of the pitch DLF(a), CM(a), IF(a) in the box

2. Through balls to IF, mostly from the CM(o) who is the most creative player and has PI's: dribble less, stay in position (otherwise he gets too deep), more risky passes

3. Through balls to CM(a), from CM(o) or DLF(a), that went very well last season

Problems I see: Overcrowding the area just outside the box. The IF comes inside and stays inside so there's no movement anymore. Is that normal? I think it's better when he goes wide again and tries to infiltrate again. The winger(s) isn't wide enough, but I wouldn't know how to keep him wider so there's more space for the cm(a). 

The movement isn't that bad in my opinion, especially the cm(a) has space now and then, but the timing is bad, he goes deep when he can't get the ball. When he comes back in the midfield he gets the ball, but that's way too late. 

I'd appreciate feedback.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZzFqytailk

The movement is really bad imo after watching that clip. Your players especially the attacking ones are so high up the pitch that they can't move and when they do on the odd occasion its dropping off the front. You have very little penetration and while it's good to see you keeping possession and retaining the ball, you aren't doing anything with it at all. It's all backward and sideway passes. You are so high up the pitch and no-one is moving to create any kind of movement or to pull the opposition wide. It's all for nothing and the players are passing it about needlessly without ever looking threatening once.

I've covered this already, so not sure what you need help with? I did a full article about it in this very thread, the Mentality vs Mentality section. I also covered it in all the other ones too and spoke about how important movement is and the different ways you have to create it based on how high up the pitch you are.

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Problems I see: Overcrowding the area just outside the box

That's because your CM's are just recycling possession constant between each other and players are coming inside looking for the ball. It's not actually crowded, there's just zero movement and no-one is looking to attack or get behind the opposition.

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The IF comes inside and stays inside so there's no movement anymore. Is that normal?

It is when he comes inside and there are no options for him yes.

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I think it's better when he goes wide again and tries to infiltrate again

Then give him a reason to go wider. Everything you do is in the centre, there is no passing down the flanks, so why would he go wide and stay wide when the ball is stuck in the middle and not going to the wide areas?

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The winger(s) isn't wide enough, but I wouldn't know how to keep him wider so there's more space for the cm(a). 

But what good would that do? How is that going to suddenly make you attack and unlock defences? Your play will be the exact same as it now, expect a little wider. You have more pressing issues that width, like trying to attack the opposition and creating any kind of attack. Width won't help with that as the issues are how you use the ball and what you're doing with it, which currently is nothing worthwhile based on the 3 minute clip above.

The only time you look threatening is when everything starts deep and your players are deeper. There's a reason I did the mentality vs mentality section to highlight the differences. I'd probably read over that part again and see how it differs from how you currently play and how playing more as a unit in the way you all move together, is far more beneficial that the way you currently play. 

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

I've covered this already, so not sure what you need help with? I did a full article about it in this very thread, the Mentality vs Mentality section. I also covered it in all the other ones too and spoke about how important movement is and the different ways you have to create it based on how high up the pitch you are.

Thanks for the response, I did read the article that's the reason I've been trying different mentalities. I've also tried it on standard and counter mentality. We're sitting deeper then and when we move forward there's more space behind the opposition. But when there's no through ball given in an earlier stage of the transition we end up in the same 'recycle possession without being dangerous again'. And that is really frustrating as I can't find the answer to it!

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

You are so high up the pitch and no-one is moving to create any kind of movement or to pull the opposition wide.

With a WB(a) and a W(s) on the rightflank and a WB(s) on the left flank I'vr tried to create width. It's working now and then with a through ball to one of the backs who crosses it in. 

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

Then give him a reason to go wider. Everything you do is in the centre, there is no passing down the flanks, so why would he go wide and stay wide when the ball is stuck in the middle and not going to the wide areas?

The easy answer would be: to create space for himself, but apparently that's not the way the role works. We're indeed not going wide a lot and I don't understand that. I'm playing without a playmaker so no ballmagnet in the centre. The WB's really have space, but indeed the ball always ends up in the middle.

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

That's because your CM's are just recycling possession constant between each other and players are coming inside looking for the ball. It's not actually crowded, there's just zero movement and no-one is looking to attack or get behind the opposition.

The cm(a) is trying to get in behind, but at moments he can't recieve the ball, then he drops deep, gets the ball, plays it back and goes forward again. Theoretically the IF(a), and CM(a), and the DLF(a) now and then, should try to get behind the opposition. 

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We're sitting deeper then and when we move forward there's more space behind the opposition. But when there's no through ball given in an earlier stage of the transition we end up in the same 'recycle possession without being dangerous again'. And that is really frustrating as I can't find the answer to it!

Maybe stop being so reliant on through balls and work on player movement instead via runners? You're winger, striker and IF are disjointed from the rest of the side and are working as individuals based on the clip you uploaded. The striker and IF seem really advanced so don't have anywhere to run really due to the high start position against sides who are deep like in the example you posted. This is why through balls aren't working for you, as there is no space behind the defensive line to really pass the ball into, without someone making space.

Your whole strategy falls apart against the deeper teams because you're set up to sit high up the pitch and there is no space behind. Against deeper teams the space is nearly always in front of the defence, that means using duties that sit on top of the players marker aren't really effective unless someone is making the space. I don't see in your set up who is making the space? Your front 3 are the same as mine, with the exception of me having the AMC to also create space. Your CM doesn't seem to do this in the clip, he's running into dead ends because the players infront of them aren't moving or creating space. This is the key to all your issues.

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With a WB(a) and a W(s) on the rightflank and a WB(s) on the left flank I'vr tried to create width. It's working now and then with a through ball to one of the backs who crosses it in. 

You're still approaching it wrong imo. You are fixated on through-balls and width. Yet you naturally have width due to the shape you play. Instead of over focusing on width, focus on how your roles work together and more importantly, how they link up. I showed what I mean by this in the inside forward thread. I showed who created space, who used it and who offered support.

Through balls are great, but it's not a strategy or a style of play that is consistent and sustainable. It relies on a bit of luck. It would also work better if you have players who would run onto the ball but your that high at times, it doesn't work. This is a by product of the mentality used, the role and the duty.

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The easy answer would be: to create space for himself, but apparently that's not the way the role works.

The IF role works and the player finds space by moving central, that's what the role is about and the bread and butter of it. If that's not what you want then yes, you have the wrong role. He starts wide and comes inside not the other way around.

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We're indeed not going wide a lot and I don't understand that. I'm playing without a playmaker so no ballmagnet in the centre. 

Well the supportive player on this side of the pitch is asked to stay as close to his starting position as possible and hit through balls. How do you expect him to realistically, provide a consistent level of support for the IF? Let alone the striker or winger on the other side of the pitch. His play is limited and you've instructed him to do a certain thing 90% of the time. So obviously he isn't going forward much at all and most balls he plays revolves around the central area to either the IF who is marked or the striker. Then those players play the ball back to him and we go through the cycle yet again.

It doesn't matter you haven't used a playmaker but you've still instructed the player to play a specific way and that's the reason your play is so centralised. He is doing exactly what you asked of him.

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The cm(a) is trying to get in behind,

I didn't see this in the example you posted. I saw him make a few forward runs but that is different to looking to get in behind.

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Theoretically the IF(a), and CM(a), and the DLF(a) now and then, should try to get behind the opposition. 

Why should they? They're already really high and don't really have anywhere to go behind the opposition, this is the whole problem. To get behind the opposition and beyond them it requires actual space. Someone creating space/a diversion, someone to run into that space and people actually supplying them the ball to allow that. I don't really see where any of this comes from in your set up. Your roles don't work together, your front players are just 4 individuals rather than working together.

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On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:

that means using duties that sit on top of the players marker aren't really effective unless someone is making the space.

I don't get what you mean here, that might be because English isn't my native language. Sit of the of the players marker, I can't make sense of it:P

On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:

The IF role works and the player finds space by moving central, that's what the role is about and the bread and butter of it. If that's not what you want then yes, you have the wrong role. He starts wide and comes inside not the other way around.

Of course I understand that, but if I pick a winger he doesn't just run to the byline and stops moving when he doesn't get the ball, because he finished his trick. He will move back to search for the ball or to make this run again. I expected the IF to make a run inside and when he doesn't get the ball, move back to make that run again. But he doesn't do that apparently. But not really interested in discussing this. Feels like you treat me like I'm dumb so I still wanted to respond and explain myself ;).

On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:

It doesn't matter you haven't used a playmaker but you've still instructed the player to play a specific way and that's the reason your play is so centralised. He is doing exactly what you asked of him.

Totally right, Thanks for pointing that out. I used the stay on position because I was feeling he was getting in the same area as the IF and they were too close together occupying each others space. But you're right this is another consequence. I removed the PI.

On 24-12-2017 at 10:26, Cleon said:

To get behind the opposition and beyond them it requires actual space. Someone creating space/a diversion, someone to run into that space and people actually supplying them the ball to allow that.

Makes sense indeed. That's what I've been trying last couple matches without a lot of success. I feel the only player who can actually be a diversion or create space is the striker. So I've been changing his role. Tried different things: CF, DLF(o), DF(o), last 2 added PI roaming. He's moving a little more, but he's not really creating a lot of space. Now I'm trying to get the ball quicker from the right to the left with exploit flanks. It gives the back more crossing possibilities, but the actual problem stays.

You have any tips in how to create space with this formation? 

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But not really interested in discussing this. Feels like you treat me like I'm dumb so I still wanted to respond and explain myself ;).

Quote

You have any tips in how to create space with this formation? 

You can't ask for help then get all arsey just because you don't like the answers. I'm trying to help you and you are just repeating stuff that is already discussed and explained in the threads already. But that's cool if you don't want to discuss things as it means I don't have to feel bad about not answering your questions now if that's the angle you want to take. Saves me a whole lot of time :)

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Haha take it easy man. The reason I didn't want to discuss that was because it's not where my question is. And yes I felt a bit offended, but I know that it says something about myself too, so it wasn't meant arsey:)

I hope you still want to respond.

And merry christmas of course ;)

 

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I have tried this tactic as Man utd .  My perfect Serie A tactic is not working for me in the premier league.

So I have been reading this thread and testing it with my team.

I can't get the AM support role to work , I have tried it with three very different players. Mata that comes deep, Pogba that gets into the box and Ozil that looks for the pass rather than shoot.

given them move into channels , roam from position in testing. Mostly with the default though.

But they all get 6.4 -6.7 and are doing very little in the attacking third.

I moved them back to a cm (a ) role and saw  improvements.

So Cleon how do you get the Am role to work in this tactic ?

Edited by big daddy
Editing

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Are there any special PPM:s you are looking for or prefer in this tactic? I noticed in your thread about the inside forward that an AM with Killer passes and Looks for pass rather than to score increases the performance of the IF, but what about the other positions? In the teams i use i have found that many central midfielders (used as DM in this case) have the Plays short simple passes trait, and that I get a better performance if I play those players in the DM role rather than the VOL.

What about PPM:s for the VOL? Tries killer passes is one I would guess is preferable? Maybe avoids long shots if long shot stat is low? The winger? Cut inside/move into channels in order to encourage variation on the right hand side? What about the ST?

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2 hours ago, Klfh said:

Are there any special PPM:s you are looking for or prefer in this tactic? I noticed in your thread about the inside forward that an AM with Killer passes and Looks for pass rather than to score increases the performance of the IF, but what about the other positions? In the teams i use i have found that many central midfielders (used as DM in this case) have the Plays short simple passes trait, and that I get a better performance if I play those players in the DM role rather than the VOL.

What about PPM:s for the VOL? Tries killer passes is one I would guess is preferable? Maybe avoids long shots if long shot stat is low? The winger? Cut inside/move into channels in order to encourage variation on the right hand side? What about the ST?

I did a piece about the PPM's for this system;

https://teaandbusquets.com/footballs-kindgom-player-preferred-moves-ppms

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Is anyone else finding their SV taking far too many potshots while miles out rather than running even with take less shots from distance on?

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I have been following this thread and your advice religiously, and I'm so glad I did as it has made me play FM in a totally different way!

I am playing as Porto and as you might expect 90% of teams in the league sit really far back and limit the space. I know you've already given some advice on this matter but I am wondering if you have any more tips on how to break these teams down?  I have pretty much been using the exact same deep tactic that you've been using, same roles and TI's apart from I have added "close down keeper distribution, play out of defense and work ball into box"

Would you even recommend dropping the mentality down further and lowering the defense line? I try to test different things but my FM playing time has been seriously reduced recently :( 

Cheers

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27 minutes ago, JesterSTJ said:

I have been following this thread and your advice religiously, and I'm so glad I did as it has made me play FM in a totally different way!

I am playing as Porto and as you might expect 90% of teams in the league sit really far back and limit the space. I know you've already given some advice on this matter but I am wondering if you have any more tips on how to break these teams down?  I have pretty much been using the exact same deep tactic that you've been using, same roles and TI's apart from I have added "close down keeper distribution, play out of defense and work ball into box"

Would you even recommend dropping the mentality down further and lowering the defense line? I try to test different things but my FM playing time has been seriously reduced recently :( 

Cheers

Only limited 'testing' done on this so far, but having read a few recent threads in here I've started changing structure as opposed to mentality when having this kind of issue (going from less to more structured). So far it has produced better results than dropping mentality, which I used to do on FM17. I also tend to increase width, drop defensive line and add roaming.

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1 hour ago, craiigman said:

hey mate, on the face of things how does this look?

nep1se3.png

Think the CM,VOL, and IW will get in each others way?

How do you see them linking up? Or more to the points, why have you chosen the roles in the positions you have?

I'd be thinking along these lines highlighted in this thread in terms of seeing how players link up and knowing how it all works out;

 

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@craiigman i am also using the same layout of your tactic but with a more counter attack slant to it. For a standard tactic, four attack duties seem quite a lot and the CM, VOL and IW will attack roughly the same areas, namely the right half-space. Personally i would put the CM on support and put the VOL on attack on the left, switch places with your DLP.

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I have been slowly building up my Wick team to use this tactic and am now at a stage where I have certain variants. The one thing I have noticed is that the player you put in each position and the role you assign them can be really key to getting the system working. One of my DMs was terrible as the SV as he just kept taking shots time and time and time again but he is awesome as a regista or DM in the formation instead. 

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10 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

I have been slowly building up my Wick team to use this tactic and am now at a stage where I have certain variants. The one thing I have noticed is that the player you put in each position and the role you assign them can be really key to getting the system working. One of my DMs was terrible as the SV as he just kept taking shots time and time and time again but he is awesome as a regista or DM in the formation instead. 

Not sure I agree. I'm also slowly building up my team, starting at level 10. I now have 3 variants of the tactics, a 4231 attacking, 4231 counter and 4231 contain, designed to be able to switch with the same players on the pitch. Thus I'll have 2 FBs (full green pie) who might switch to being WBs (in attack mode, half green pies) but they perform just fine. The 3 players I use for the SV role started utterly unsuited to SV in terms of pie slices, but would be maxed out for a BWM role. However, I've persisted playing them as SV and after 3 years they are 75% there in terms of pie slices, but on the pitch are much more effective than at the beginning. It seems to me that once full squad cohesion is reached, the players play better together and make far fewer mistakes, and this seems to have a greater effect on play and results than the actual amount of pie slices the game suggests to you. But it does take considerable time ....

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9 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Not sure I agree. I'm also slowly building up my team, starting at level 10. I now have 3 variants of the tactics, a 4231 attacking, 4231 counter and 4231 contain, designed to be able to switch with the same players on the pitch. Thus I'll have 2 FBs (full green pie) who might switch to being WBs (in attack mode, half green pies) but they perform just fine. The 3 players I use for the SV role started utterly unsuited to SV in terms of pie slices, but would be maxed out for a BWM role. However, I've persisted playing them as SV and after 3 years they are 75% there in terms of pie slices, but on the pitch are much more effective than at the beginning. It seems to me that once full squad cohesion is reached, the players play better together and make far fewer mistakes, and this seems to have a greater effect on play and results than the actual amount of pie slices the game suggests to you. But it does take considerable time ....

I pay no attention to my pie slices coz if I did my RW should play as a winger and indeed I had him as a winger in the tactic to begin with and he was consistently getting under 6.5 and not scoring any. Once I changed him to a Raumdeuter (which he has lowest pie) he was instantly involved again. I think certain players do play certain roles better or worse and the pies give you no indication of how they will do. My new regista is rubbish pie as well yet is dictating games from that position.

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All this talk of pies is making me hungry.. :D seriously though, they don't matter; attributes is what rules of everything. I don't even bother retraining a player to play in a new position most of the time, takes up too much of their PA and they can play the role perfectly well regardless. 

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1 hour ago, Wavelberry said:

I pay no attention to my pie slices coz if I did my RW should play as a winger and indeed I had him as a winger in the tactic to begin with and he was consistently getting under 6.5 and not scoring any. Once I changed him to a Raumdeuter (which he has lowest pie) he was instantly involved again. I think certain players do play certain roles better or worse and the pies give you no indication of how they will do. My new regista is rubbish pie as well yet is dictating games from that position.

It's more to do with 'what role' suits the system best. The Raumdeuter probably suits the rest of the formation and is more involved. Because if your winger was constantly getting under a 6.5 rating then its quite clear that role doesn't work for you, as even on a bad day he's still be able to push 7's or higher frequently. 

The role position indicator though is fairly useless overall imo but then again, it's only an indicator not an hard fast rule of any kind.

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5 hours ago, Cleon said:

It's more to do with 'what role' suits the system best. The Raumdeuter probably suits the rest of the formation and is more involved. Because if your winger was constantly getting under a 6.5 rating then its quite clear that role doesn't work for you, as even on a bad day he's still be able to push 7's or higher frequently. 

The role position indicator though is fairly useless overall imo but then again, it's only an indicator not an hard fast rule of any kind.

Ah, but with a different team with the winger rather than raumdeuter my winger was consistently getting good ratings and being a lot more involved.

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26 minutes ago, Wavelberry said:

Ah, but with a different team with the winger rather than raumdeuter my winger was consistently getting good ratings and being a lot more involved.

You still got the save? If so I'd be interested in taking a look at it.

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

You still got the save? If so I'd be interested in taking a look at it.

I will see if I can dig it oot.

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I'm playing 4-2-3-1 looking like thiS:

http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=f32vx3

TI: play out of defence,prevent gk distribution,work ball into box,higher def.line

Mentality: Standard/flexible

I am having high possession in most of the games, dominating. Problem is that I am seeing a lot of off target shots. Game after game I will have like 15 shots and 5 on target or something like that. Sometimes a lot of long shots. Most of the goals scored are by my striker Pellegri who is on fire, he has 14 goals in 11 apps this season. When he is not playing we can't seem to score anything. Also my whole team is in bad morale because of my broken promise to one of my players so I have 22 unhappy players and this is also probably the reason we struggle. 

Sometimes I switch mentality to control against stronger teams who will push a bit higher. I tried to play counter with high def.line against weaker teams to make me some space to run into and we have quite a lot of chances then, the problem is we also suffer in defence then. Standard mentality gives me the most balance, we attack and dominate even though we squander a lot of shots stupidly but also we are quite OK defensively, we don't allow much chances against.

I just need to make some tweaks to make us more ruthless in attack, DLP/D and CAR/S as two pivots looks fine to me, I'm happy how they control possesion and also defensively they are quite solid. Inside forward on the right is dangerous, I'm not sure with AMC..should I go for AP or Treq..Should I go also for IF role on the left wing too?

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Hey @Cleon, wondering if you or anyone else can look at my tactic and explain something to me.

So this is what I'm rolling with right now:

54DB7F00E5A4AA933C333448F468723FD48B22CA

In my mind I want Salah, the IF-A, to be the main goalscorer of the team. He's a better finisher than any of my strikers and has amazing off the ball movement, so that's the natural role for him to fill. 

In your post about the IF you bring up the point of the IF needing supply and support. Up until now, I had a WB-S and the DLP-D on that side of that pitch and found that the IF isn't really as involved as I'd like and tends to be very quiet in games, also doesn't score a whole lot. How can I make this work in my tactic? I'm wondering if a CM-S will provide that support and supply for the IF, or whether a different role is needed there (perhaps a Carrilero? As I understand they drift a bit wider and work well on the same side with an IF). Mind you, I haven't yet tested it with the CM-S on that side as in the screenshot, but I want to get ahead of any potential issues and understand how to get the best out of the IF rather than just try things blindly.

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1 hour ago, bar333 said:

Hey @Cleon, wondering if you or anyone else can look at my tactic and explain something to me.

So this is what I'm rolling with right now:

54DB7F00E5A4AA933C333448F468723FD48B22CA

In my mind I want Salah, the IF-A, to be the main goalscorer of the team. He's a better finisher than any of my strikers and has amazing off the ball movement, so that's the natural role for him to fill. 

In your post about the IF you bring up the point of the IF needing supply and support. Up until now, I had a WB-S and the DLP-D on that side of that pitch and found that the IF isn't really as involved as I'd like and tends to be very quiet in games, also doesn't score a whole lot. How can I make this work in my tactic? I'm wondering if a CM-S will provide that support and supply for the IF, or whether a different role is needed there (perhaps a Carrilero? As I understand they drift a bit wider and work well on the same side with an IF). Mind you, I haven't yet tested it with the CM-S on that side as in the screenshot, but I want to get ahead of any potential issues and understand how to get the best out of the IF rather than just try things blindly.

Not Cleon (duh), but I'd rather just give  this tactic a try and see what happens. The roles make sense so far but it doesn't seem like you played a game yet with it...

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Uhm, no. I played 2 full seasons with a slight variation of this tactic. 

Anyway, it's ****. I'm kind of past thinking tactics actually make a difference in this game at this point. Just gonna go on cruise control and ignore tactics for the most part from now and let the chips fall where they may.

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Just came across this as I load up with FM2018. Off to a slow start in my first two games on a new team but mostly  just seeing how the team plays right now.

Went with two tactics to start, a 4-1-2-3 DM (I think some consider this a 4-1-2-2-1?) and a 4-4-2 Narrow Diamond.  The latter seems right out as I don't think I have the personnel to use it effectively (YET?? :P), but was thinking on experimenting with a 4-2-3-1 since my current personnel does have a fair number of people that can play across the three AM strata positions. (I could probably tweak my 4-1-2-2-1 to do some similar stuff)

 

I've had success with 4-2-3-1 in the past, but typically only against weaker sides due to the counter threat.  Having the midfielders in DM strata isn't something I had really considered though. So I think I'll see how the team does with this!  Some light reading while I compile at work :D

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Cleon, how risky would it be to use a full back with an attack role and combine him with an inside forward attack role upfront? 

What i am thinking is to use the finishing ability of that inside forward, while also using the good attacking ability of my full back? 

(i understand that the opponent my exploit me from the wings, thats why i used Danilo as a CAR role, so that he might intervene against the attacking full backs of the opposition)

(my tactic is your 4-2-3-1) 

 

Screen Shot 2018-02-15 at 03.52.13.png

Edited by CapaJr

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5 hours ago, CapaJr said:

Cleon, how risky would it be to use a full back with an attack role and combine him with an inside forward attack role upfront? 

What i am thinking is to use the finishing ability of that inside forward, while also using the good attacking ability of my full back? 

(i understand that the opponent my exploit me from the wings, thats why i used Danilo as a CAR role, so that he might intervene against the attacking full backs of the opposition)

(my tactic is your 4-2-3-1) 

 

Screen Shot 2018-02-15 at 03.52.13.png

It should be fine but you'll be exposed at times. However, why an attack duty? You say you want to use his attacking ability but he also attacks on support. So my question is, what do you think an attack duty will add that a support duty doesn't? And what the overall benefit on playing him on attacking will be.

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

It should be fine but you'll be exposed at times. However, why an attack duty? You say you want to use his attacking ability but he also attacks on support. So my question is, what do you think an attack duty will add that a support duty doesn't? And what the overall benefit on playing him on attacking will be.

Actually I’ve noticed a lot when playing my WB on support, the team often just ignore him. Like he’ll be in a great position to get the ball, in acres of space, unmarked, and they decide to not pass it to him.

Put him onto attack, and he gets the ball a lot more.

Also find generally get poor ratings because of this. 

Edited by craiigman

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19 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Actually I’ve noticed a lot when playing my WB on support, the team often just ignore him. Like he’ll be in a great position to get the ball, in acres of space, unmarked, and they decide to not pass it to him.

Put him onto attack, and he gets the ball a lot more.

Also find generally get poor ratings because of this. 

Probably because you have a playmaker central I guess somewhere? As the wide players tend to get ignored more due to the passing bias towards the playmaker.

If not then the set up/players are the issue. My support WB gets the most assists in my side because he's heavily involved by taking up deeper positions and running from deeper. If I put him on attack in this set up, this wouldn't happen and he'd detract from the IF. 

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Hey @Cleon , first let me say this is a very nice article written by you. It impressed me to the point of making an account on here just to ask you some advice on my own 4-2-3-1

 

So, the idea is to use the two wing to make penetration into the opponent defense, either by crosses to the centre of the box for the forward, AMC and the other wing IF or short return for the CM arriving late.On defense, the team hard press the opponent with tight marking and tackle. So far it works somewhat to my expectation, but I still don't feel it good enough, and I don't really know why. I have try to improve it but doesn't really make any progress and I'm out of idea to improve. Luckily enough, I found you. Below is the screenshot of the one I'm using.

5a859a52328a9_4-2-3-1PIcustom.thumb.png.a9bbdfa18c96e06408ad993139c27cfd.png

Both full backs have dribble more, all top positions have more risky passes except the BWM, and shoot more often on CF and AMC. Currently, the most worry part is while defending, a high ball counter can rule out almost 4 of my defense position, leaving only the two CB to win it all. But it doesn't happen often enough, probably because opponent being hard press even on their own half.

 

Can you help me to figure out what i should improve on and increase the consistency of the tactics please ?

PS: also, i attached the tactics file in case you want to look more into. Thank in advance

4-2-3-1 Wide new custom made (PI).fmf

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Quote

Hey @Cleon , first let me say this is a very nice article written by you. It impressed me to the point of making an account on here just to ask you some advice on my own 4-2-3-1

Thanks :)

Quote

So, the idea is to use the two wing to make penetration into the opponent defense, either by crosses to the centre of the box for the forward, AMC and the other wing IF or short return for the CM arriving late.On defense, the team hard press the opponent with tight marking and tackle. So far it works somewhat to my expectation, but I still don't feel it good enough, and I don't really know why. I have try to improve it but doesn't really make any progress and I'm out of idea to improve. Luckily enough, I found you. Below is the screenshot of the one I'm using.

Imo the tactic falls into every trap I spoke about throughout the series. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's like you didn't read the thread and just posted the question. By that, I mean, the things you mention were all spoke about in depth during the articles. The issues are;

  • You have no-one really crossing, yet you want crosses. So why use 2 IF's who aren't crosses?
  • The fullbacks won't really be that much of a threat from crossing and when they do, it'll be from deep positions.
  • It doesn't help that the IF's are both attacking either.
  • You have zero variety in the way you attack.

Your ideas just don't match what you actually want. If you take your time and read the thread again and focus on the things what you are struggling with, you will see it's been addressed in the articles as to how a 4231 should function and work. All the info is already there :)

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Guess I wasn't so good then.

1/ Actually, I may have use the wrong word here. What do you call a pass parallel the goal into the other wing for attacker to run in and tap into goal? That's what I want my two wing to do. They also have the option to shoot right there if want to

2/ Also, the two FBs do have cross from the byline as well, depend on where they are when they receive the ball. But you are right on most of their crosses are from deep positions.

3/ So there should be a focus on what wing I want to make the shot from? and the other wing will be the support?

4/ I see, do you have any idea to improve this without massive change to the tactics? Maybe i should back to the drawing board then

And I DID read your article, just that this one I made before i actually found you. That why i said it needs improvement. I do see what you mean with the trap, but since the team is instruct to play hard pressing and tackling, i have seen many times their counter or attacking move break down due to being tackle and lost the ball. So I think it may stand well. The downside is there will be A LOT of foul =.=!

Edit: this is from the game with dortmund i have just played. The game counted the one I said above as cross though.

example.thumb.png.9a99bcdfa7196af9aff184c790e2a671.png

 

Edited by darthzero
adding thing

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I had good success adopting this so far.

After squeaking out some 1-0 wins my first game, I tried this one and definitely saw some better movement of the ball across the field, including some better utilization of the wingers.  Some extra compounding factors though as it was also when I brought in a solid left winger and midfielder to supplement some gaps in the team at the moment so my side got a little stronger as well.

Tactical familiarity is still pretty weak which might account for a lot of our short term struggles, but we just started our training camp and that should help expedite that training. I'm still a ways off for regular season starting so I'm not too worried about it but I do agree with the Segundo Volante being an interesting position to help link things up. I just have a DM as his partner and I do think there's a bit of a gap between my back 6 and my front 4. I'll keep an eye on things and see how they do with improved tactical familiarity and some better team cohesion.

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I mist be doing something wrong here. Been trying this version of 4231, but can’t seem to stop conceding cheap goals. Any suggestions? The frustration of FM18 is starting to get to me. Every cross goes in, long goal kicks leads to a long through ball, central defenders just watch as attackers run or play around them.

080AB996-B481-48CF-A764-52F004EC1AAC.png

5BFA3989-70CF-411C-9152-AD85EBADC089.png

F890CC29-898B-44A0-9E16-992225B22D3E.png

193955C0-C649-47FD-9A2A-02BCA19569F1.png

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39 minutes ago, Gujord said:

I mist be doing something wrong here. Been trying this version of 4231, but can’t seem to stop conceding cheap goals. Any suggestions? The frustration of FM18 is starting to get to me. Every cross goes in, long goal kicks leads to a long through ball, central defenders just watch as attackers run or play around them.

Your players aren't Cleons players, you need your tactic to maximize your players strengths and minimize there weaknesses.  You can't just copy his tactic and expect it to work with a completely different group of players, however good they are they will be good/weak in different ways individually and as a team.

From what you've said your players aren't good at playing high, so thats the first thing i'd look at.

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26 minutes ago, Gujord said:

I mist be doing something wrong here. Been trying this version of 4231, but can’t seem to stop conceding cheap goals. Any suggestions? The frustration of FM18 is starting to get to me. Every cross goes in, long goal kicks leads to a long through ball, central defenders just watch as attackers run or play around them.

080AB996-B481-48CF-A764-52F004EC1AAC.png

5BFA3989-70CF-411C-9152-AD85EBADC089.png

F890CC29-898B-44A0-9E16-992225B22D3E.png

193955C0-C649-47FD-9A2A-02BCA19569F1.png

No wonder you are conceding easy goals. Central defenders in FM aren't the smartest of player when it comes to anticipating through balls, and on top of that they are amazingly slow to turn. Unless your central defenders are absolute top class with really good pace, anticipation and positioning they will have a lot of trouble in this system. You push up your defensive line, leaving so much space behind. This is always a risky tactic, and to pull it off your players must always put enough pressure on the opposition or they just have too much time to punt the ball over your defence, and it's always a difficult situation. On top of it you have closing down much more. Whereas you want more closing down for your midfielders and forwards so that they can press their players when playing with a high line, it also increases the closing down of your defenders a lot. You need to think if you really want your defenders to constantly leave their position to close down players as it creates a lot of gaps in your defence. All this combined with both wingbacks and the segundo volante pushing high up the pitch when in possession, your team can be really susceptible to counter attacks.

I usually play a high press game but I tend to leave my closing down on normal and use PIs to set individual closing down instructions. For my forwards and advanced midfielders I use higher closing down and for my defenders and at least one holding midfielder I use less closing down - and this is with normal closing down TI, so you could even consider much less closing down for your defenders as you use much more closing down TI. Especially since you have two defensive midfielders covering the space in front of defence. You don't need your center backs to close down that space as well as it is just an overkill and leaves so much space in behind.

Another thing I would consider is starting the games with slightly higher defensive line and see how it plays out. It is a bit more balanced approach at the start, and you can push it higher if you see that they have too much time to build play in the middle. You should also look out for teams that play direct through balls against you and drop your defensive line to normal or even deeper if they pose a threat.

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3 hours ago, juusal said:

No wonder you are conceding easy goals. Central defenders in FM aren't the smartest of player when it comes to anticipating through balls, and on top of that they are amazingly slow to turn. Unless your central defenders are absolute top class with really good pace, anticipation and positioning they will have a lot of trouble in this system. You push up your defensive line, leaving so much space behind. This is always a risky tactic, and to pull it off your players must always put enough pressure on the opposition or they just have too much time to punt the ball over your defence, and it's always a difficult situation. On top of it you have closing down much more. Whereas you want more closing down for your midfielders and forwards so that they can press their players when playing with a high line, it also increases the closing down of your defenders a lot. You need to think if you really want your defenders to constantly leave their position to close down players as it creates a lot of gaps in your defence. All this combined with both wingbacks and the segundo volante pushing high up the pitch when in possession, your team can be really susceptible to counter attacks.

I usually play a high press game but I tend to leave my closing down on normal and use PIs to set individual closing down instructions. For my forwards and advanced midfielders I use higher closing down and for my defenders and at least one holding midfielder I use less closing down - and this is with normal closing down TI, so you could even consider much less closing down for your defenders as you use much more closing down TI. Especially since you have two defensive midfielders covering the space in front of defence. You don't need your center backs to close down that space as well as it is just an overkill and leaves so much space in behind.

Another thing I would consider is starting the games with slightly higher defensive line and see how it plays out. It is a bit more balanced approach at the start, and you can push it higher if you see that they have too much time to build play in the middle. You should also look out for teams that play direct through balls against you and drop your defensive line to normal or even deeper if they pose a threat.

Thanks for the tips, mate. Will try out som PI tweaking. Closing less on CB’s made them stay more in line. 

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Was having some reasonable success with this formation, but would get spanked by the big teams away from home and now seem to be in a form slump. When we lose, we either a) create very few shots, b) have hardly any shots in target or c) are very susceptible to crosses. As a starting point, are there any red flags that jump out with this? Thanks for your help

 

 

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C6ED3AEF-ECA9-4F6D-BA36-A97329F84138.jpeg

Edited by jdubsnz
Wrong photo

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From memory Kristoffer Ajer and Chiellini aren't exactly blessed with pace...so no wonder you get done by big teams playing a really high line extreme pressing game with those two at the back. I'm sure others will offer other things but my suggestion would be to either get some faster CBs or drop your D line. 

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1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

From memory Kristoffer Ajer and Chiellini aren't exactly blessed with pace...so no wonder you get done by big teams playing a really high line extreme pressing game with those two at the back. I'm sure others will offer other things but my suggestion would be to either get some faster CBs or drop your D line. 

Cheers, good point! Chiellini has 14 but Ajer only has 10. Will drop the D line and maybe play Koscielny

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On 1.11.2017 at 07:58, Cleon said:

Meet The Inside Forward

When playing football manager and selecting player roles, a few individuals choose a role and think that is it and expect it to perform instantly. But in some cases it’s much more than the role you’ve selected and is about the team as a whole, especially for roles that are creative or for the ones you want to be the goal scoring roles. If you use a creative role, then who is the player creating for? Who provides him the ball and what the player do with the ball. Or if it’s a goal scoring role, then who is the one providing the supply and what kind of supply? Who offers the support? And so on.

It’s not a simple case of selecting a role and leaving it at that. There is a much bigger picture. So hopefully in this article I can show you the Inside Forward and how I utilise him. I’ll also be focusing on why he scores, what his play involves and explain why the roles around him, allow this kind of play. But first let’s look at the player and his development first, to understand everything about the player.

Rodrygo

For those who follow me on Twitter, you’ll know that Rodyrgo is my golden boy and is going to become the main man at the club. I’m hoping he will break all kinds of records, especially the goalscoring ones.

Rodrygo1.png?resize=474%2C291&ssl=1

At the end of the first season he had seen quite the change, not only in terms of attributes but also with his personality.

Personality  – Start of the season balanced. End of the season it’s now ambitious. This means his tutoring session went to plan and not only have we seen a rise of his determination attribute from 10 to 14, we also know that his hidden attribute, ambition has also seen a raise.

Role training – For the entire season I kept him on the role training of the inside forward schedule.

Individual attribute focus – I only had him on stamina training for 3 month and then I removed it. I didn’t add another because he was still complaining about a heavy workload due to a poor personality and he was playing a lot of games. I didn’t want to increase the injury risks.

End of Season Two

Rodrygo-2.png?resize=474%2C294&ssl=1

During the second season he improved an awful lot, not only in terms of attributes but his overall game play too. He grabbed a lot of goals and assists compared to the year before. This no doubt had impacted his develop in a good way.I haven’t had him tutored again since the first time as I have no suitable tutors for him.

Role training – Short term he is my inside forward and thriving at the role currently. However due to how he is developing (attribute wise) and my long-term plans for him (I see him as the main striker eventually), I start to training him differently now. I feel the inside forward role no longer really suits him as the attributes that category trains are already getting high now. I could make them even higher but I want to focus on other aspects of his game now to make him even better.

That’s why I now put him on the complete forward schedule as I look to bring his other attributes up to scratch. This won’t be a long-term training though, it’ll be done for 18 months at the maximum, as I don’t want him to become a well-rounded player, I still want him to specialise and favour his high attributes. But I don’t want the other attributes to fall too far behind.

There’s nothing wrong with having rounded players, it’s just I prefer to have players who can do a specific job. The job I want Rodrygo to do is actually quite complex and I need him to develop more before I start discussing that side of things. But this will happen in a later article.

End of Season Three

Rodrygo3.png?resize=474%2C290&ssl=1

By far his best season to date and all from the inside forward spot too. His attribute development is going as I wish and he’s become a world-class player in three seasons time. I still believe he has room to develop even further though. During this third season I gave him a heavy individual attribute for first touch, as I felt it was lower than it should have been in comparison to his other attributes.

So in three seasons we’ve seen these attributes rise;

Technical Attributes       

  • Corners +4  
  • Crossing +4
  • Dribbling +2
  • Finishing +4
  • First Touch +5
  • Free Kicks +4
  • Heading +2
  • Long Shots +3
  • Long Throws +1
  • Marking +2
  • Passing +4
  • Penalty Taking +4
  • Tackling +1
  • Technique +3

So we’ve seen a 43 point increase across all his technical attributes with first touch, being the one that saw the biggest improvement. Which makes sense as this is the only one I focused on apart from stamina in season one.

Mental Attributes

  • Anticipation +3
  • Bravery -1
  • Composure +4
  • Concentration +3
  • Decisions +3
  • Determination +7
  • Flair +1
  • Leadership +2
  • Off the Ball +3
  • Positioning +2
  • Teamwork +2
  • Vision +3
  • Work Rate +2

Here we can clearly see the direct result of tutoring which originally made the attribute be 14 in value. However the increase to 15 in value is down to the squad personality which is now determined, it grew one more point due to this. We can also see that bravery took a one point drop, this was due to a recent injury. On Football Manager 2018 we see this more often, we can sometimes see the bravery take an immediate loss for the attribute when someone is injured. Once he’s fit and playing regular again, it should begin to rise to what it was before.

Physical Attributes

  • Acceleration +4
  • Agility +5
  • Balance +5
  • Natural Fitness +1
  • Pace +4
  • Stamina +5
  • Strength +6

We’ve seen much bigger attribute chances here compared to the mental and technical attributes. The reason being there are less in the physical attributes than the others. When I first posted about this player, some people acted like he was the finished product and didn’t take him being 15 years-old at the time into consideration. They were quick to point out his flaws and focus on what he cannot do. The truth is, players at a young age can be shaped how you want and just because an attribute might be low at the time, doesn’t mean it will be when he’s fully developed.

We can see above how much he has changes in a 3 year time period. When you view a youth player try to think of the bigger picture and see that his attributes could be much higher in the next five or so years.

Rodrygo has had a great three years both in terms of attribute development and performances. I will be going into some depth about the performances in a later article when I get some free time, to show how you can bring youths through without compromising your results.

The Inside Forward Role

To ensure you have a good goal scorer the first thing you need is someone or multiple people to provide the striker, or in this case the inside forward, with chances he can put away and provide him with support to pass to, create space or even to occupy an opposition player for him. Without any of these then you’ll struggle to have someone who can regularly score 25+ goals a season.

I’ve already mentioned a few aspects of what is needed to create a goal scorer but here are more;

  • Supply
  • Support
  • Space
  • Movement
  • Roles
  • Duties

The supply and support are vital parts of helping someone become a goalscorer. This is what can create the movement both for the player to use and around him so it makes the opposition make a decision. This is how gaps appear for you to exploit and use to your advantage. However another big part of this is the role and duty of the player and those around him, as this will determine not only what the player does, but how the people around him behave too.

To further explain all of these points and how they link together, I should probably show you some examples of how it all works in a game environment. If you want to know about the system I am using then you can find it discussed here;

https://teaandbusquets.com/4-2-3-1-introduction

Even though I’m using the 4-2-3-1 deep, all the principles I speak about in this topic should be applicable regardless of what shape you use. All the principles are the same regardless of formation.

Passes Received

It’s important to see what kind of areas the player receives the ball, as this will show how involved he is in the build up play and what kind of areas he has taken up as he is about to receive the ball.

1-5.png?resize=474%2C231&ssl=1

Here we can see the goalkeeper is playing the ball out to my defender Guilherme. But if we look further forward we can see Rodrygo who is moving towards the flank to give himself some space. Due to him being unmarked, Guilherme is going to hit him early with the ball. Once he gets the ball, he knocks it down to the Segundo Volante who is offering support. However nothing happens during this move but the point isn’t to show what Rodrygo does yet, it’s just to highlight and get an idea of who is passing to him and in what kind of areas.

2-5.png?resize=474%2C234&ssl=1

This is almost from an identical area as the first example but this time he receives the ball from the Segundo Volante. We can also see how unmarked he is and all the acres of space he has to play in, due to the positions he is taking up. Due to me playing on a standard mentality, he isn’t too advanced and cut off from the rest of the side. He is very much a big part of all build up phases and this makes him harder to pick up and mark because he drops deep.

3-4.png?resize=474%2C228&ssl=1

Rodrygo also offers us an outlet for when we are very deep in our own half, as can be seen above. We won the ball back and due to Rodrygo offering width, we can play the ball straight out to the wing to relieve some of the pressure. It also means we are immediately on the front foot because Rodrygo can drive forward with the ball and stay wide until the rest of the play catches up with him.

Now we’ve seen a little glimpse into where he receives the ball but not let’s have a look how the inside forward works for the system I’m using.

1-1.jpg?resize=474%2C297&ssl=1

In the above image we can see both the teams shapes and the positioning of the defenders and midfielders. It’s almost identical to each other. You can see Rodrygo unmarked and in the space between the fullback and the winger. My keeper notices this and can use him as an outlet and do long balls to him. I don’t have the keeper set to short distribution as I’d miss out on this kind of stuff, it also means my keepers passing accuracy suffers a lot because of this but I don’t mind, if on the occasions it works, results in a chance or even a goal being scored.

Now I know what you are thinking here, and it’s that if I can do this then so can the opposition seeing how we are matched up and you’d be correct. However, in a proper defensive phase my inside forward would drop much deeper and be helping the fullback out. So in that sense, it’s less risky due to the mentality I am using. Nonetheless though, the keeper hit the ball straight to Rodrygo.

2-1.jpg?resize=474%2C252&ssl=1

After Rodrygo held up the ball he played it back to the midfielders who then played it to the winger over on the right. Once this happened the game got stretched because we switched play. Looking at the above though, it seems we lack options upfront but actually I don’t. What happens next is a vital component of why the inside forward role works excellent for me.

3.jpg?resize=474%2C282&ssl=1

Due to the striker attacking the box because the winger is running towards the byline, this means the oppositions defenders are in panic mode and they’re more focused on the early running, my striker. Which in turns mean Rodrygo has been left unmarked. Not only this, but due to the strikers early run he has created lots of space for the inside forward to use. No-one is near him and no-one is marking him.

The two main reasons why this space was created is because of;

  • The striker who is a deep-lying forward on an attack duty.
  • Using a winger who looks to get to the byline with the ball.

The striker is the one who creates the space and this is the reason I gave him an attack duty and not a support one. As I want him to still be a spearhead when attacking and not dropping as deep in moments like this. Other roles would work too in this scenario. The forward doesn’t need to do anything other than run in this set up, as this is what creates space. Just a simple run into the box without a ball.

The second reason it works so well is the winger and his attacking ability and his aim of going as deep into the oppositions half as possible and picking out a cross. You should be able to see in this example how both the striker and winger role allows the inside forward space, time and creates the movement for him by taking the whole defensive unit away from him. It’s also one of the reasons I like variety in my attacks and don’t like using the same role on both sides. If I used two inside forwards then the responsibility for this kind of play would fall solely on the striker, which is much harder to do. The payoff is also poorer in my opinion as it makes you more one dimension and your play is easier to predict. You basically make things easier for the AI if you only attack in one way.

In the above example, on this occasion Lincoln didn’t provide an accurate ball to Rodrygo or the striker. It was a poor ball but then again I am using a pure striker as a winger for this game due to injuries and suspensions. Things aren’t going to work all the time, that’s not realistic and if it did work all the time, that would be a bug. However it happens frequent and that is how you should measure success on Football Manager and if something is working tactically, by the frequency of how often it happens.

4.jpg?resize=474%2C191&ssl=1

The move wasn’t lost though and the ball was cleared from the initial cross but then found it’s way to my Segundo Volante seconds later. I use a creative Segundo Volante who has the players preferred move of ‘tries killer balls often’. I love this PPM as it means he does stuff like the above all the time, he is constantly hitting the space the inside forward is in and either plays the ball in between the space of the fullback and wide player. Or he attempts to put the ball into the area between the fullback and the defender. On this occasion, he chooses the wider options, so now Rodrygo can become the winger and provider. He receives the ball and drives forward for a second then just hits the ball across the goal for the striker to turn home.

While the inside forward is normally the highest scorer in the side, he’s also one of the most creative and gets a ton of assists. His play isn’t all about scoring goals and he can often be found becoming provider like in the above example. It’s not forced creativity though and is all natural, meaning it’s an added extra rather than funneling play through him, like a playmaker role would. I speak about it all the time but having a variety way of creating and scoring goals makes the game much easier. Too many people play one-dimensional these days and that’s why they come up with the ‘The AI has worked me out’ stuff that people come out with. The AI doesn’t ever do that, but if you only create and score in a specific way then when this doesn’t go to plan you have no plan b.

Which means you struggle and why you have to change stuff so much. I’m not saying you can’t be successful that way but it brings an awful lots of negativity with it, playing that way and makes the game harder than it needs be. It’s also one of the reasons you should think of a tactic as a whole, rather than focusing on specific individuals or roles. Because in isolation it’s meaningless if it doesn’t actually fit how you play.

2017-12-21_13-42-17.thumb.gif.767bf820a6295f1b3e2c5b7b9d910668.gif

This time we see the inside forward scoring a goal. The rightback combines with the right winger who then passes the ball to the Segundo Volante, who then in turn passes to the attacking midfielder, who then plays in the inside forward. So again we are seeing the team combine and use the pitch in different ways to offer support and create. There is actually another component at play here too though and that is PPM’s. I have two players who play this role;

Untitled.png?resize=474%2C289&ssl=1

Untitled2.png?resize=474%2C290&ssl=1

Now depending on which of these players I play in the attacking midfielder spot, determines how different we attack. If I use Alexandre Tam, then quite often I see him doing stuff like the above, where he plays the inside forward in. This is because of his PPM’s, he is tailored to be a pure passing outlet and these make him attempt different types of balls. Yet when I play Lucas, we don’t see those type of ball at all. I don’t mind that as we attack slightly different then and the onus is back on Rodrygo to make the intelligent moves. To give you a better indication of just how badly this impacts Rodrygo’s stats here are some stats;

Untitled-1.png?resize=474%2C115&ssl=1

Now if we ignore the goals scored in the first season, as he was only 16 years old and was still really underdeveloped. However if we look at the last two seasons, we can see he scores a similar amount of goals but the number of assists he gets is very different.

Can you guess which season the above AM’s were paired with Rodrygo the most based on assists? The 2019 season is with Alexandre Tam and the 2020 season with Lucas. One of the reasons why the number of assist differ drastically is down to the fact that Lucas isn’t as selfless as Tam and doesn’t try killer balls frequently. So without the killer balls often, it takes away from Rodrygo’s all round game. One of the reasons why is because of the gif example I posted above. When he receives those type of balls he can normally square it for the striker, winger or an on running midfielder to put the ball in the net.

It doesn’t mean Lucas isn’t as good as Tam, it just means they play the role different and this impacts the overall play. The goal tally is roughly the same though, the 2020 goal scored seems a bit better but he had two games were he scored 5 goals so it’s padded the stats out slightly. I think this kind of stuff might be better explained in another article though as this one is already getting quite long and I’ve not covered everything that I want just yet. Just after Christmas, I’ll look at finishing off part two with a lot more examples and explanations.

Great post!

I have one question;

Have you managed to get the IF to cut inside and score (like Robben or Hazard) very often does IRL?

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Yeah he does constantly.

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Not had much time to play recently. So since update started new save with Liverpool. Using the actual original set up. Have mirrored formation so IF is on right and Salah is exceptional. 

The key to this and any tactic which doesn't expolit a ME loop hole is to have it fit your players.

Previouslyi had altered roles but since update went back to basics and watched. Team plays the way I want. Players are happy.

Still have the occasional loss. This isn't a win all tactic but a framework that if it fits great but if it doesn't gives you a great starting point.

The loss was to Utd. 5 nil. Oops. In my defence though Salah, Cann and VVD all injured so spine was weak.

Thanks for the work you have done @Cleon. It has really helped me out and got me to look at things differently. 

Football is a simple game and FM is simple where you keep it simple and build up your tactic. Too many instructions conmplicate it at times.

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