The 4231 Explained

[Kazza]

Hi

Just to say once again, excellent article, most informative. I am now using this formation and that has given me an all round better performance for my NUFC so far. Need to retrain some players for some of those roles.

Just a few of questions:

1. What camera angle and camera hights etc you using. I am trying to break away from the Director's camera, as I want to see more of the pitch and player movement?

2. On my tactical screen I have a big red square as my SVol does not cover that spot, presumably an acceptable risk? 

3. Would changing the role of the left side IF to Winger impact that much. i have a natural for that role in Atsu whereas  setting him as an IF does not play to his strengths.

 

Again thanks for this detailed analysis of this formation, so far, so good.

 

K

 

[Cleon]

13 minutes ago, Kazza said:

Hi

Just to say once again, excellent article, most informative. I am now using this formation and that has given me an all round better performance for my NUFC so far. Need to retrain some players for some of those roles.

Just a few of questions:

1. What camera angle and camera hights etc you using. I am trying to break away from the Director's camera, as I want to see more of the pitch and player movement?

2. On my tactical screen I have a big red square as my SVol does not cover that spot, presumably an acceptable risk? 

3. Would changing the role of the left side IF to Winger impact that much. i have a natural for that role in Atsu whereas  setting him as an IF does not play to his strengths.

 

Again thanks for this detailed analysis of this formation, so far, so good.

 

K

 

1- This was answered 3 posts before this one

2- For me risk is always worth the reward. I also balance my tactic so that it's not an issue, so if I use something like the SV the player next to him will sit deeper.

3- In the set up I posted? Yeah as if you remember the tactic is set up so the IF is the main scorer.

[kstoyle]

I don't usually post in the tactics forum as I am pretty cluesless, but i wanted to explain to people what I did based on @Cleon's article as I fell into the traps that he explained and lots of people are commentinfg on.

First off I had a 4231 whoich worked well in FM17 but didn't in FM18, so rather than moan I just copied Cleon's opening post!!  This didn't work for me so I stripped back everything and tried to forget what I thought I knew.  I read and re-read the role descriptions and studied my players attributes and went for a 4 (FBA, CB, CB, WBS) -1(SV) -1(CM D) - 3 (WS, APS, IFA) -ST (AF) with no TI on flxexible, Standard and watched a game or two.  I usually add TIs just becasue I think I needed to rather than thinking about it.  I watched a game or two and found that adding individual PI based on the attributes helps more than the TI. (Cleon may or may not agree).   The only TI I did add was play out of defence as it was annoying me seeing the ball booted up the pitch and possession lost.  But apart from that I haven't made many changes. I have not over complicated things, which I think many, including myself, were guilty of.

So after a bad run, I now have 4 wins in a row and scoring goals for fun. It is not as simple as Cleon makes out, I don't have the same analytical brain he does, but if you take it back to basics and watch rather than just making assumptions it can really work. I found that investing a bit of time has worked wonders.

Of course 4 wins is not everything so maybe I have just got lucky and you can ignore everything you have just read.

[harryleechinyeow]

On 01/11/2017 at 14:58, Cleon said:

So let me know below which article you’d like to see next.

Great analysis!! 

I tweaked my 4231DM after reading ur posts, but remained with Control mentality. So I'd be intereated to see how you'd adjust if it's in a higher mentality.  

[Yoeri]

Great thread @Cleon I was wondering. In what setup do you watch your matches? Because I am always watching my games for like 20 minutes but there are maybe at it's maximum 5 minutes of football. The other 15 minutes is the loading part of highlights...

I am sorry for my English by the way.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Was having a 'mare in my save until this thread helped me decide to just strip it back , remove all TI and PI and start from scratch. 

 

I'll post a more detailed analysis later , but my tactic is now essentially

SK D 

RWBs (stay wide)

CD

CD

LWBa (stay wide) 

MCR DLPd 

MCL Mezalla

AML Ws 

AMC AMs 

AMR IFa 

AFa 

 

I had to add stay wide to the wing backs as both were drifting inside far too often ( I don't want to use overlap as they should overlap naturally and I don't want play help up).

 

Results have been good but against largely weaker opponents so far.  The DLP has kept things ticking along and the AM is dropping deep and largely dictating the tempo of the game.  Both my AF and IFa are getting goals  and the Mezalla is joining in though I feel we are a little slow in the transitions.  Watching the games it feels like we could be catching teams out a lot more if the players were quicker to commit to the attack / make a forward pass.  I'm not sure how to remedy this though I feel it's a role issue with the central pair. 

 

We're having a lot of possession and our shots on target % is good , just think everything could be better. 

 

Side note , I've plenty of options in the CM role in Dembele , Alli, Winks , Wanyama and Dier so should be able to change it up. I've concerns about how to approach the Manchester club's who are absolutely dominating so far.  City are looking at the AI going undefeated. 

[Diego Imposta]

6 hours ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Was having a 'mare in my save until this thread helped me decide to just strip it back , remove all TI and PI and start from scratch. 

 

I'll post a more detailed analysis later , but my tactic is now essentially

SK D 

RWBs (stay wide)

CD

CD

LWBa (stay wide) 

MCR DLPd 

MCL Mezalla

AML Ws 

AMC AMs 

AMR IFa 

AFa 

 

I had to add stay wide to the wing backs as both were drifting inside far too often ( I don't want to use overlap as they should overlap naturally and I don't want play help up).

 

Results have been good but against largely weaker opponents so far.  The DLP has kept things ticking along and the AM is dropping deep and largely dictating the tempo of the game.  Both my AF and IFa are getting goals  and the Mezalla is joining in though I feel we are a little slow in the transitions.  Watching the games it feels like we could be catching teams out a lot more if the players were quicker to commit to the attack / make a forward pass.  I'm not sure how to remedy this though I feel it's a role issue with the central pair. 

 

We're having a lot of possession and our shots on target % is good , just think everything could be better. 

 

Side note , I've plenty of options in the CM role in Dembele , Alli, Winks , Wanyama and Dier so should be able to change it up. I've concerns about how to approach the Manchester club's who are absolutely dominating so far.  City are looking at the AI going undefeated. 

I've got a really similar set-up in terms of tactics and variety of central midfield personnel so I thought I'd chime in, although this is my first FM in a few years. I think just tweaking the DLP with give you that extra transition speed but it may come at the cost of your Mezzala, you'll have to trial that. My version of dealing with bigger teams is to have that DLPd position you do but supported by a BBMs. Alternatively he sits a little further as a DLPs with a CMd next to him if I want that extra notch of transition speed but cover all the same. Just make sure he's on the IF side rather than the W with that role though

[Cleon]

14 hours ago, Yoeri said:

Great thread @Cleon I was wondering. In what setup do you watch your matches? Because I am always watching my games for like 20 minutes but there are maybe at it's maximum 5 minutes of football. The other 15 minutes is the loading part of highlights...

I am sorry for my English by the way.

Already answered this about 5 replies up

[BillHoudini24]

Hello Cleon, thank you for another quality thread. I decided to use a 4-2-3-1 with 2 DMs and MR/L, MC. I want  to come close to Jurgen Klopp's Dortmund, playing fast and pressing high up the pitch. I know that I lose the qualities of a top heavy system by playing with MR/L/C, but I had defensive problems, even though my defends are fast with decent mental atts for the level they're playing.

What main principals would you use in order to play a tactic like Klopp's Gegenpressing 4-2-3-1?

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, BillHoudini24 said:

Hello Cleon, thank you for another quality thread. I decided to use a 4-2-3-1 with 2 DMs and MR/L, MC. I want  to come close to Jurgen Klopp's Dortmund, playing fast and pressing high up the pitch. I know that I lose the qualities of a top heavy system by playing with MR/L/C, but I had defensive problems, even though my defends are fast with decent mental atts for the level they're playing.

What main principals would you use in order to play a tactic like Klopp's Gegenpressing 4-2-3-1?

In FM I don't believe you can, I have always said this. People claim they have created Gegenpressing but they haven't. In FM pressing is all or nothing, you can't create different kinds of pressing its limited.

[BillHoudini24]

I started seeing that this kind of pressing can't happen but I looked at this process as a tactical exercise for traps across the pitch and how I can defend in a good level with Top Heavy Systems. I kinda failed even though I'm currently first with Zulte Waregem in Belgium's First Division (1st GS, 12th GC thought). 

I tried P.Is in the front 4 (Closing Down, Tight Marking, etc), I tried T.I Closing Down, it only worked a bit in Very Fluid, but that compressed the team too much and Klopp's teams play wider and exploit that space, so I pretty much failed. I know it's because of how the M.E works but I hoped this year would be a little improved.

Pressing like that is how I would like my teams to play, I guess we will all have to wait until S.I brings more pressing options.

Thank you for your time.

[fidelitywars]

Has anybody paired a segundo volante with a half back at the base of midfield? Interested to know whether the HB drops between the centre backs as he does in a single pivot formation, if so. Just concerned that he may not slot in as naturally with as he's positioned slightly off-centre with another central player in the DM strata.

[Bigpapa42]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

In FM I don't believe you can, I have always said this. People claim they have created Gegenpressing but they haven't. In FM pressing is all or nothing, you can't create different kinds of pressing its limited.

I've seen a few suggestions / proposals for tactical changes to FM that would allow for adjusting the type of pressing. Seems like a good step forward. As much as I'm loving the new player roles, would have loved to see that addition for FM18.

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, Bigpapa42 said:

I've seen a few suggestions / proposals for tactical changes to FM that would allow for adjusting the type of pressing. Seems like a good step forward. As much as I'm loving the new player roles, would have loved to see that addition for FM18.

The thing is, for new things like different styles of pressing, pressing traps and so on we need a complete new ME. And while there is one in the works no-one knows the time scale of it. However it was never realistically going to be this year and dare I say, it won't be next year either. It would be good to have options though.

[Jean0987654321]

11 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The thing is, for new things like different styles of pressing, pressing traps and so on we need a complete new ME. And while there is one in the works no-one knows the time scale of it. However it was never realistically going to be this year and dare I say, it won't be next year either. It would be good to have options though.

That is a shame, man. Especially since gegenpressing is the standard nowadays in most teams. Its not as if only a select few does it. Hell, even my local team New York Red Bulls does it

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

That is a shame, man. Especially since gegenpressing is the standard nowadays in most teams. Its not as if only a select few does it. Hell, even my local team New York Red Bulls does it

But when the current ME was created it's wasn't really at the fore front of football, it was just pressing. There wasn't really much variations talked about but now its much more documented. We feel your pain and @Rashidi has been very vocal about stuff like this too. It will happen. But we'll have to wait a while longer. 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

But when the current ME was created it's wasn't really at the fore front of football, it was just pressing. There wasn't really much variations talked about but now its much more documented. We feel your pain and @Rashidi has been very vocal about stuff like this too. It will happen. But we'll have to wait a while longer. 

It's taken years for the game in real life to really develop pressing traps etc. It's going to take the same amount of time to create a match engine that even gets close.

What people also don't realise is that its not just about the traps and instructions, but crucially about the physics. Pressing requires non tackling physical defence: jostling, proper hold up etc. This needs further developing

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It's taken years for the game in real life to really develop pressing traps etc. It's going to take the same amount of time to create a match engine that even gets close.

What people also don't realise is that its not just about the traps and instructions, but crucially about the physics. Pressing requires non tackling physical defence: jostling, proper hold up etc. This needs further developing

Indeed, the whole code needs to be updated from top to bottom. It's a mammoth job for a team that is also working on the current engine too. Then I can only imagine what kind of ball ache it'll be to implement and the knock on effects it has for existing settings and how they have to be adapted. 

[oakesypvfc]

Loved the article and am actually trying a very similar set up with Napoli. I actually looked at the side and decided that the deep DM's really suited their team so ran with it. Early signs are showing well for the Segundo Volante, I really like the look of the role. Allan here looks the guy that can revel in the role.

Would you say it is very similar to a box to box midfielder starting from the DM position? How would you say it differs if you do disagree?

Anyway, early signs are that the SV and the AM-S were sharing the same space when with the ball as I have been watching on the analysis tab, do you think this is a good thing or not? I went with my first instinct of not wanting that to happen, so for now I have decided to use the AM on an Attack duty and it seems to have put them a bit further apart when with the ball. Saying that though, I do like the thought of the AM-S having more space in front of him to attack.

Great article as always @Cleon and I can't wait to hear your response if you get chance

Edited November 14, 2017 by oakesypvfc

[Jessan]

1 hour ago, oakesypvfc said:

Anyway, early signs are that the SV and the AM-S were sharing the same space when with the ball as I have been watching on the analysis tab, do you think this is a good thing or not? I went with my first instinct of not wanting that to happen, so for now I have decided to use the AM on an Attack duty and it seems to have put them a bit further apart when with the ball. Saying that though, I do like the thought of the AM-S having more space in front of him to attack.

Great article as always @Cleon and I can't wait to hear your response if you get chance

Ah, came here to ask the same thing, I've noticed it as well that the SV and AMC are standing on top of each other at certain times, this usually happens(or causes) when my AMC is having a bad game according to his rating.  The one thing that might be causing it is that my AMC has the PPM of moves into channels which might be causing it, I hope it's not since he is my best player and having a player unlearn a PPM takes a lot of time and usually doesn't work.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Jessan

[Cleon]

7 hours ago, oakesypvfc said:

Loved the article and am actually trying a very similar set up with Napoli. I actually looked at the side and decided that the deep DM's really suited their team so ran with it. Early signs are showing well for the Segundo Volante, I really like the look of the role. Allan here looks the guy that can revel in the role.

Would you say it is very similar to a box to box midfielder starting from the DM position? How would you say it differs if you do disagree?

Anyway, early signs are that the SV and the AM-S were sharing the same space when with the ball as I have been watching on the analysis tab, do you think this is a good thing or not? I went with my first instinct of not wanting that to happen, so for now I have decided to use the AM on an Attack duty and it seems to have put them a bit further apart when with the ball. Saying that though, I do like the thought of the AM-S having more space in front of him to attack.

Great article as always @Cleon and I can't wait to hear your response if you get chance

The SV is nothing like a B2B midfeidler really. The SV is more a complete midfielder but on steroids. I talk about it in this thread 

The SV and AM shouldn't be sharing the same space. Sure they should overlap at times but they should be playing in their own space doing different things.

[oakesypvfc]

33 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The SV is nothing like a B2B midfeidler really. The SV is more a complete midfielder but on steroids. I talk about it in this thread 

The SV and AM shouldn't be sharing the same space. Sure they should overlap at times but they should be playing in their own space doing different things.

Ah okay, that makes sense. His movement looked a little like a box to box, but that might just be me.

On that last point, when with the ball, they do seem to be sharing the same space and I can't really put my finger on why, if I change to Attack duty, that is just making the AM (AP role) play in a space very close to the striker, maybe I need to change my strikers role to one with a higher mentality.

[Cleon]

11 minutes ago, oakesypvfc said:

Ah okay, that makes sense. His movement looked a little like a box to box, but that might just be me.

On that last point, when with the ball, they do seem to be sharing the same space and I can't really put my finger on why, if I change to Attack duty, that is just making the AM (AP role) play in a space very close to the striker, maybe I need to change my strikers role to one with a higher mentality.

Movement wise it's similar but that isn't what makes the role its the play-style, it differs drastically.

I can't understand how they'd share the same space and be on top of each other. This is likely a result of the players attributes, team or player instructions or PPM's. It's likely down to that. I've probably used the SV more than most people, especially in the beta and provided detailed bug reports on the position so have a pretty good understanding of how it works with various roles and so on. Although before you said you was using a AM support but not say it's a playmaker role? If it's a playmaker role then maybe he is drifting into the space searching for the ball. If it's actually an AM support then it's one of the things I mention at the start causing it. 

[oakesypvfc]

5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Movement wise it's similar but that isn't what makes the role its the play-style, it differs drastically.

I can't understand how they'd share the same space and be on top of each other. This is likely a result of the players attributes, team or player instructions or PPM's. It's likely down to that. I've probably used the SV more than most people, especially in the beta and provided detailed bug reports on the position so have a pretty good understanding of how it works with various roles and so on. Although before you said you was using a AM support but not say it's a playmaker role? If it's a playmaker role then maybe he is drifting into the space searching for the ball. If it's actually an AM support then it's one of the things I mention at the start causing it. 

Ah okay, that makes sense.

Yeah, when I originally posted I was using an AM-S but have since changed him to an AP-S as I think that it fits Hamsik more. They aren't quite on top of each other but are quite a bit closer than what I'd like to see (with the ball). As long as they are doing different things though, I suppose it doesn't matter all to much and both will help the team when in attack.

[Icy]

How do you suggest to change the AM role when the opponent is playing with a DM man marking him? I thought about switching it to trequartista so he dirfts to the sides forcing the DM to follow him and opening space for others, but the problem is that at least in the lower leagues, there aren't good enough AMs to play trequartistas.

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, Icy said:

How do you suggest to change the AM role when the opponent is playing with a DM man marking him? I thought about switching it to trequartista so he dirfts to the sides forcing the DM to follow him and opening space for others, but the problem is that at least in the lower leagues, there aren't good enough AMs to play trequartistas.

Yes there is, I often play them as do other people. The stats you look for are just lower that's all. Roles are not league or level dependant and anyone can play the role.

In answer to your question though, why would you need to change the AM just because the other teams has a DM? Your AM while being marked should still be able to play his game to some extent? If the DM is marking your AM constant then that means they have no protection on the back four, which begs the question, why aren't your other players taking advantage of this?

[bravehawk]

Thanks Cleon, I have enjoyed reading your article so far. 

Now correct me if I am reading this wrongly, or over simplifying things here, but in terms of your attacking tactic it does look like you are trying to slightly overload on the right side to drag defenders over and then spring the IF on the left.  A lot of your screen shots seem to suggest that to me.  I was wondering as a result of this set up if you are using or tempted to use an Exploit right flank TI to attack from that side more frequently.  If not, are you having the same success on attacks down the left hand side?

 

[Cleon]

16 minutes ago, bravehawk said:

Thanks Cleon, I have enjoyed reading your article so far. 

Now correct me if I am reading this wrongly, or over simplifying things here, but in terms of your attacking tactic it does look like you are trying to slightly overload on the right side to drag defenders over and then spring the IF on the left.  A lot of your screen shots seem to suggest that to me.  I was wondering as a result of this set up if you are using or tempted to use an Exploit right flank TI to attack from that side more frequently.  If not, are you having the same success on attacks down the left hand side?

 

Good spot. I'm occupying the defenders and midfield on the right hand side of the pitch as illustrated in the pictures and examples I posted. What I've not done yet is who how the left hand side works which is very different. We do play down the left and create from there too, it's just different. The left is more running and using space orientated while the right is more focused on creating and occupying and creating space centrally. By creating space centrally it means the central player then plays the left sided players in on goal time and time again.

I've not used any TI's to exploit a specific flank no. The main reason being, I want the play to be natural and not forced. Everything I do currently all happens natural because of the shape, roles and duties I use. If I use TI's this then forces this issue and I find things work better if its natural. 

[bravehawk]

12 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Good spot. I'm occupying the defenders and midfield on the right hand side of the pitch as illustrated in the pictures and examples I posted. What I've not done yet is who how the left hand side works which is very different. We do play down the left and create from there too, it's just different. The left is more running and using space orientated while the right is more focused on creating and occupying and creating space centrally. By creating space centrally it means the central player then plays the left sided players in on goal time and time again.

I've not used any TI's to exploit a specific flank no. The main reason being, I want the play to be natural and not forced. Everything I do currently all happens natural because of the shape, roles and duties I use. If I use TI's this then forces this issue and I find things work better if its natural. 

Thanks for your response, I for one would be interested in the next article showing how things work on higher mentalities,  and perhaps touching a little more on the Left sided attacking and downstream how the defensive side is working.

[mt123]

Hi All,

I'm having a bit of trouble with my deep 4-2-3-1.  It is giving up a lot of scoring chances and not creating many. Here is the set up below only PI is take shorter kicks on the keeper

I'm having trouble building the play up from the back, with players often aimlessly hoofing the ball upfield because there is no option. Mainly the centrebacks and left back. Also the winger is getting quite isolated and ending up running into two or three players. The AMC doesn't seem to be contributing much to the game and isn't offering much of an option to the players with the ball. I tried using shorter passing to fix this this, a more fluid team shape, and adding roaming to one of the DMC and AMC (all separately by the way not all at the same time!) but it doesn't seem to be working 

 

In defence we often end up with 3 players going after the same attacker leaving us wide open on switches of play. Getting lots of mistakes as well, mainly missed interceptions, with most of the team averaging 2 a game! I've tried reducing the closing down and adjusting the defensive line but that doesn't seem to be fixing it

 

Has anyone got any ideas on how I can solve these issues? Thanks in advance!

[Diego Imposta]

22 minutes ago, mt123 said:

Hi All,

I'm having a bit of trouble with my deep 4-2-3-1.  It is giving up a lot of scoring chances and not creating many. Here is the set up below only PI is take shorter kicks on the keeper

I'm having trouble building the play up from the back, with players often aimlessly hoofing the ball upfield because there is no option. Mainly the centrebacks and left back. Also the winger is getting quite isolated and ending up running into two or three players. The AMC doesn't seem to be contributing much to the game and isn't offering much of an option to the players with the ball. I tried using shorter passing to fix this this, a more fluid team shape, and adding roaming to one of the DMC and AMC (all separately by the way not all at the same time!) but it doesn't seem to be working 

 

In defence we often end up with 3 players going after the same attacker leaving us wide open on switches of play. Getting lots of mistakes as well, mainly missed interceptions, with most of the team averaging 2 a game! I've tried reducing the closing down and adjusting the defensive line but that doesn't seem to be fixing it

 

Has anyone got any ideas on how I can solve these issues? Thanks in advance!

Straight off the bat, see how changing High Structured to Flexible works out for you. You've already got two visibly distinct groups of six defenders and four attackers - you don't need them doing even less of each other's work. I'd also look to get one of those DMs into a role where they are going to want to link your two distinct groups - see what suits your players. 

[Cleon]

48 minutes ago, mt123 said:

Hi All,

I'm having a bit of trouble with my deep 4-2-3-1.  It is giving up a lot of scoring chances and not creating many. Here is the set up below only PI is take shorter kicks on the keeper

I'm having trouble building the play up from the back, with players often aimlessly hoofing the ball upfield because there is no option. Mainly the centrebacks and left back. Also the winger is getting quite isolated and ending up running into two or three players. The AMC doesn't seem to be contributing much to the game and isn't offering much of an option to the players with the ball. I tried using shorter passing to fix this this, a more fluid team shape, and adding roaming to one of the DMC and AMC (all separately by the way not all at the same time!) but it doesn't seem to be working 

 

In defence we often end up with 3 players going after the same attacker leaving us wide open on switches of play. Getting lots of mistakes as well, mainly missed interceptions, with most of the team averaging 2 a game! I've tried reducing the closing down and adjusting the defensive line but that doesn't seem to be fixing it

 

Has anyone got any ideas on how I can solve these issues? Thanks in advance!

You might want to take your time and read the openings posts again and then the comments in the thread. I know 6 pages might seem a lot but the advice you'll pick up is some of the best out there. The issue above is, how are the 6 defensive players supposed to link up with the 4 attackers? Who is linking them all together?

This is spoke about in the openings posts and then many times again throughout the thread.

No real link players. No real support, no one to recycle possession. The DMC's are very defensive minded and don't really bridge the gap between defence and midfield and so on.

[shaggydo]

2 hours ago, mt123 said:

Hi All,

I'm having a bit of trouble with my deep 4-2-3-1.  It is giving up a lot of scoring chances and not creating many. Here is the set up below only PI is take shorter kicks on the keeper

I'm having trouble building the play up from the back, with players often aimlessly hoofing the ball upfield because there is no option. Mainly the centrebacks and left back. Also the winger is getting quite isolated and ending up running into two or three players. The AMC doesn't seem to be contributing much to the game and isn't offering much of an option to the players with the ball. I tried using shorter passing to fix this this, a more fluid team shape, and adding roaming to one of the DMC and AMC (all separately by the way not all at the same time!) but it doesn't seem to be working 

 

In defence we often end up with 3 players going after the same attacker leaving us wide open on switches of play. Getting lots of mistakes as well, mainly missed interceptions, with most of the team averaging 2 a game! I've tried reducing the closing down and adjusting the defensive line but that doesn't seem to be fixing it

 

Has anyone got any ideas on how I can solve these issues? Thanks in advance!

Why not try changing one of your DMs to a Segundo Volante? That would help link defence with attack I imagine? Then change the other DM to defence duty perhaps to provide more defensive stability

[luka_zg]

I've tried all kinds of stuff playing 4-2-3-1 deep and wasn't happy with any of it. So, I decided to go back to regular 4-2-3-1 with two MC's and "back to basics" roles. And the imrovements are immense.

https://imgur.com/a/d9Epz

TI: Standard/Control-Flexible

pass shorter

close down more

higher line

work ball into box

Edited November 16, 2017 by luka_zg

[Schotsmannetje]

Very interesting read. I've been using 4231 with two regular MC's myself and that has brought me a lot of nice results. When I'm ahead in the second half I often revert back to two DMC's with the AMR as MR, AMC as MC and AML as ML to have more players behind the ball. But I'm guessing the same effect could be created by simply changing certain instructions rather than changing the formation.

 

[Schotsmannetje]

I've tried copying your exact formation and I've already noticed that my attacking players have a lot more space now. Nice.

[mt123]

7 hours ago, Cleon said:

You might want to take your time and read the openings posts again and then the comments in the thread. I know 6 pages might seem a lot but the advice you'll pick up is some of the best out there. The issue above is, how are the 6 defensive players supposed to link up with the 4 attackers? Who is linking them all together?

This is spoke about in the openings posts and then many times again throughout the thread.

No real link players. No real support, no one to recycle possession. The DMC's are very defensive minded and don't really bridge the gap between defence and midfield and so on.

Ok, thanks for your help.

Do you have any suggestions for fixing the defensive issues? Mainly the missed interception mistakes, this seems to happen with every tactic I create?

[Hunter T]

Inspiring read Cleon.
 I try to create a 4-3 (mc-dm-mc)-3 based at this article. Same TI's, the same roles in the back four, the same roles in the three attacking players and a combo of Anchor man, a Carrilero on the right side (where the winger is) and a Mezzalla (attack) on the left side (where the IF is).
The anhor man provides a cover for the defence, the carrilero gives a help in defence too but can also connect the right side and the mezzala on the left, fills the gap in space, between the IF and the full back.
That's the idea anyway.
Am i on the the right track?

[Schotsmannetje]

21 hours ago, mt123 said:

Ok, thanks for your help.

Do you have any suggestions for fixing the defensive issues? Mainly the missed interception mistakes, this seems to happen with every tactic I create?

Closing down too much with slow players maybe? Just a wild guess. Don't mean to offend you or anything, just trying to help.

[Nozzer]

@Cleon

Little bit of advice if possible.  Started a test save last night as Barnsley to try out a tactic before starting a proper Barnsley save and got somewhere close to what I think will work but need a little advice on the wide players

I've got the central players throughout the team sorted I think but have had mixed results when using the wide players

Anyway the only TI I have on is play the ball out of defence as the starting positions are deep and, formation is standard and fluid

GK (D)

 

RFB (S)

CD (D)

CD (D)

LWB (S)

 

RDM (S)

LDM (D)

 

RW(S)

CM (A)

LWM (S)

 

DLF (A)

 

I’m fairly happy with the right hand side but I’m struggling a little with the left.  I can’t seem to find a balance between defensive cover and helping out attacking wise but think the above combo probably works best after finding an IW and WB on that side left me too open even with the DM (D) sitting.  I was creating an ok amount of chances but conceding too much mainly down the left hand side

 

I do understand I’m going to concede goals no matter what I do as I’m ranked worst in the league but do think I’m onto something with the above after reading through the thread

[gippal]

Great read! May I ask the reasoning behind placing the SV and DMs as you've done? I assume you want the more defensive-oriented midfielder to cover for your more attacking wingback? But wouldn't the SA fit your attack better on the right linking with your winger??

Edited November 18, 2017 by gippal

[phnompenhandy]

33 minutes ago, gippal said:

Great read! May I ask the reasoning behind placing the SV and DMs as you've done? I assume you want the more defensive-oriented midfielder to cover for your more attacking wingback? But wouldn't the SA fit your attack better on the right linking with your winger??

I'm largely replicating this tactic with my tier 8 side and what I notice is that the oppo focus their attacks down the right flank where my SV operates because they spot the gap behind him. It puts a lot of pressure on the left full-back (I had to convert him from wing-back role for this reason). It's not a problem per se since every tactic has its weaknesses, but it is noticeable. I think your proposal would exacerbate the problem, however - leaving huge spaces on the right for the oppo to exploit.

Edited November 18, 2017 by phnompenhandy

[Klfh]

This thread is really awesome! After a failed attempt at a 4-4-2 diamond with my Swansea side, I changed to a 4-2-3-1 to utilize the wide options. I have pretty much copied your tactic, of which I am a bit ashamed to be honest, normally I try to read threads like this only for inspiration and steal small concepts to implement in my own way. Since Swansea is a underdog in the PL I have moved the wide players back one step to provide a little bit of defensive stability - for the last 3-4 editions of FM I have preferred LM/RM over LAM/RAM. It seems to be more in line with the kind of defensive positioning I'm after. Since I really don't like the keeper hoofing the ball up the field I have also given him the PI:s Distribute to CB, Roll it out and Shorter passing.

The one problem I have is that the striker seem to become isolated when I'm facing tougher opposition, and I am not really sure how to fix it. I am reluctant to put him on a support duty, since I want him in the box for crosses. It gets better if I move the wide players up to LAM and RAM (mainly due to the inside forward being closer positioned to latch on to flick ons). This, however makes me open to counter attacks on the flanks. It might be an issue relating to the standard of the players... I'll se how that pans out in a couple of seasons I guess.

Another problem is when the opposition is pressing high in a top heavy formation. My GK and CBs will often choose to recycle the possesion between them rather than try the more risky passing and I have conceeded some goals when a striker intercepts a pass in that triangle. In those matches I have had some success by changing the LCB to a BPD to encourage a ball above the high press, to the ST, AM or W. It does not always work out however. I guess I could remove the PI's from the GK - but my CB is often more accurate with his distribution.

Overall I'm performing much better than I should, so it's really a good base. From now on, all my 4-2-3-1:s will be of the deep variety. And the SV is a really special role that I'm already deeply in love with.

[phnompenhandy]

On 18/11/2017 at 15:38, phnompenhandy said:

I'm largely replicating this tactic with my tier 8 side and what I notice is that the oppo focus their attacks down the right flank where my SV operates because they spot the gap behind him. It puts a lot of pressure on the left full-back (I had to convert him from wing-back role for this reason). It's not a problem per se since every tactic has its weaknesses, but it is noticeable. I think your proposal would exacerbate the problem, however - leaving huge spaces on the right for the oppo to exploit.

A bit more feedback: normally I start a lower league campaign by assessing my squad and fitting the formation to their strengths, but this time since they are universally very weak I thought I'd start with Cleon's 4231 Very Deep version and take it from there. So most of the players have roles and duties that they're not suited for, i.e. small red slices of the pie on the tactics screen.

So as I've progressed the main tweak I've done is to abandon the wing-back roles and revert to full back because they just couldn't perform their roles and the opponents were exploiting the gaps. There is one point that stands out for me though and I think this might be an issue FM18 coders will need to address if others find it so. I have two players who alternate in the new role of Segundo Volante. By rights they ought to be awful, but in fact both are my star players, making the whole side tick and getting the highest average ratings in the league. Without them I'd be in the relegation zone rather than top half. In short, they are too damn good! Is anybody else finding that?

[Bigpapa42]

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎19 at 03:06, phnompenhandy said:

A bit more feedback: normally I start a lower league campaign by assessing my squad and fitting the formation to their strengths, but this time since they are universally very weak I thought I'd start with Cleon's 4231 Very Deep version and take it from there. So most of the players have roles and duties that they're not suited for, i.e. small red slices of the pie on the tactics screen.

So as I've progressed the main tweak I've done is to abandon the wing-back roles and revert to full back because they just couldn't perform their roles and the opponents were exploiting the gaps. There is one point that stands out for me though and I think this might be an issue FM18 coders will need to address if others find it so. I have two players who alternate in the new role of Segundo Volante. By rights they ought to be awful, but in fact both are my star players, making the whole side tick and getting the highest average ratings in the league. Without them I'd be in the relegation zone rather than top half. In short, they are too damn good! Is anybody else finding that?

I am seeing somewhat similar, though with only one player. Using a similar 4-2-3-1 deep-deep (2 DMs, MC, ML & MR) based on Cleon's thread, with one of the DMs as a SV. Didn't have an ideal player so ended up using a first day American newgen who was somewhat below level for the competition but had rounded skills. Highest average rating on the team, started every match, 20 goals.

[phnompenhandy]

Further developments - I was soon running int trouble. I don't think it was connected to the space behind the SV but I was conceding too many and was on a disastrous run of defeats. I noted that the majority of goals I was letting in resulted from long balls down the centre and strikers bursting through my sluggish back line. 

I decided, "What's sauce for the goose...." so I tweaked the tactics - standard went to counter and I went for direct passing, high tempo, close down more and hard tackling. It's worked wonders. To be fair, until this point my only decent player, a quick striker, had been crocked all season and was just becoming available. I wouldn't have worked with out him but now I'm getting loads of goals from balls over the top for him to run onto.

 

So I guess what I'm finding out is a constant FM truism - you have to find the right tactics for your particular combination of players. Cleon's 4231 is a marvellous framework, but as he himself keeps stressing, the precise template that works for his players won't work for yours. Now, here's praying my striker stays fit ....

[Icy]

I’m also finding the attacking SV a bit overpowered, whoever I put there over performs, it’s like a box2box mixed with a playmaker. I’m enjoying it a lot, but I’m afraid it could be an exploit and will need some balance, at least make him to get tired faster from running again again from box to box non stop.

[Cleon]

Why is it overpowered? Based on what, what he does? If you think it's over powered then I think you don't really understand how the role works in real life and the hundreds of players who play this role on a daily basis in Brazil for example. It's a demanding, physical role. The SV does everything hence why I labelled it the 'complete midfielder'. He doesn't always perform though and your system is vital to just how effective or ineffective he'll be. It's more suited to some systems than others. In the shape I'm talking about in the thread then he is supposed to be the heartbeat of the team so it makes sense. He should score goals, he should get assists and so on.

And the player does get tired based on how much he is doing, I often have to sub him almost every game in this set up as stamina and condition drop fairly quickly during the latter stages of a game 60+ mins.

People need to stop throwing the word exploit around because of a lack of understanding about what the role actually entails and should do.

Also he's nothing like a playmaker at all. 

[shaggydo]

I've set up a tactic with this shape on my Man Utd save and one issue I'm having is, in the pre-match briefing, the players always think I'm being too conservative (unless playing a big team). Regardless of the instructions it seems, just based on the formation. I don't see it as conservative at all but the players disagree with me every time.

Related question - what effect does the pre-match briefing have? If the team are already fully familiar with the tactic to be played, is there any benefit? Or is it just something to use if you're doing something different?

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, shaggydo said:

I've set up a tactic with this shape on my Man Utd save and one issue I'm having is, in the pre-match briefing, the players always think I'm being too conservative (unless playing a big team). Regardless of the instructions it seems, just based on the formation. I don't see it as conservative at all but the players disagree with me every time.

Related question - what effect does the pre-match briefing have? If the team are already fully familiar with the tactic to be played, is there any benefit? Or is it just something to use if you're doing something different?

It's a pointless feature as most people set up stuff on the actual match day and the pre match briefing doesn't really do anything.