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1 minute ago, summatsupeer said:

Is it the high line that an issue or lack of pressure from the players up the field?

Unsure. There was one game where I used Close Down More, but it also produced a red card for the right full back. If I had to pinpoint an issue, it might be the CM-D. The player should be doing better than he is. Can I make changes that would allow him to play as a BWM-D?

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1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

Not good. Despite me thinking my D-Line is clever and fast enough, it is getting breached by through balls, or even counterattacks. I have exceptional quickness on most of my CB-s, bar the one I brought in to provide a boost in Leadership, Determination and overall class. I really thought I could get away with a high D-Line. A low D-Line is suicidal anyway, as the CB-s aren't great in the air, except for the new guy, and a CB that starts injured.

You're not playing with a high def line.

Some things to consider:

Cover/stopper duties with the offside trap?

Soler/Parejo in the right positions?

Why two playmakers?

A very attacking wingback down the left coupled with a support duty role on the left of midfield?

Who's actually attacking the box?  And who is the AP trying to thread through balls to?

What sort of pressing are you getting your players to do?

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1 minute ago, herne79 said:

You're not playing with a high def line.

Some things to consider:

Cover/stopper duties with the offside trap?

Soler/Parejo in the right positions?

Why two playmakers?

A very attacking wingback down the left coupled with a support duty role on the left of midfield?

Who's actually attacking the box?  And who is the AP trying to thread through balls to?

What sort of pressing are you getting your players to do?

I was trying it in pre-season. I do admit I'm unsure of this.

Cleon says in a thread it's not an issue if the players have good mentals. To him, C/S pairing isn't an issue.

I want Parejo closer to goal. He has great Long Shots and even Composure.

I should reverse the MF pairing, then?

Well- the players to the right and left of him, and the DF. This role is still a striker, right?

Well, Zaza is suited for a frontal press. Other options like Vietto- not sure. I tried closing down more in one game, and it seemed like it was an issue for my defense. They had to do lots of last ditch tackles.

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47 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

Cleon says in a thread it's not an issue if the players have good mentals. To him, C/S pairing isn't an issue.

Cleon doesn't "say" things for you to then follow.  He offers guidance, discusses principles and gives us information to help us make our own informed decisions.  A C/S pairing is not necessarily an issue for sure, especially with players who have good mentals.  But in this particular instance, what is it adding to your defence?  How is it improving things for you?  How is a stopper stepping up out of his defensive position into the hole between defence and midfield helping you?  Further, you are adding in the offside trap.  What does that do to the pairing here?

53 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I want Parejo closer to goal. He has great Long Shots and even Composure.

Indeed he does, so why are you playing him as a playmaker?  How does he stack up as someone to play at AMC compared to Soler?  Do either particularly stand out as a DLP?

56 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I should reverse the MF pairing, then?

There is never "should".  However a defend duty central midfielder on the same side as a very attacking wingback may help provide better cover than a support duty player when your wingback inevitably gets caught high up the pitch.

57 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

Well- the players to the right and left of him, and the DF. This role is still a striker, right?

They are all support duty players.  Yes they will attack the box, but they'll start deeper.  And when combined with your other tactical settings, there's no real oomph.  Plus your AP is looking to thread passes to players attacking the space, which nobody is doing with any real sense of urgency.

1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

Well, Zaza is suited for a frontal press. Other options like Vietto- not sure. I tried closing down more in one game, and it seemed like it was an issue for my defense. They had to do lots of last ditch tackles.

Then stop using TIs and focus on certain players instead.

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5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Cleon doesn't "say" things for you to then follow.  He offers guidance, discusses principles and gives us information to help us make our own informed decisions.  A C/S pairing is not necessarily an issue for sure, especially with players who have good mentals.  But in this particular instance, what is it adding to your defence?  How is it improving things for you?  How is a stopper stepping up out of his defensive position into the hole between defence and midfield helping you?  Further, you are adding in the offside trap.  What does that do to the pairing here?

Indeed he does, so why are you playing him as a playmaker?  How does he stack up as someone to play at AMC compared to Soler?  Do either particularly stand out as a DLP?

There is never "should".  However a defend duty central midfielder on the same side as a very attacking wingback may help provide better cover than a support duty player when your wingback inevitably gets caught high up the pitch.

They are all support duty players.  Yes they will attack the box, but they'll start deeper.  And when combined with your other tactical settings, there's no real oomph.  Plus your AP is looking to thread passes to players attacking the space, which nobody is doing with any real sense of urgency.

Then stop using TIs and focus on certain players instead.

The C/S pairing would accentuate the qualities of each player.

Better than Soler at AMC. He is better than him in a DLP role too, but I need to give Soler playing time to develop.

Does a Cover CB help with an attacking WB? I thought that would work.

Which role would be safest to convert into an Attack duty? (AMC or the wing forwards) when Zaza plays. If Vietto or Mina play, then they are AF.

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10 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

The C/S pairing would accentuate the qualities of each player.

Better than Soler at AMC. He is better than him in a DLP role too, but I need to give Soler playing time to develop.

Does a Cover CB help with an attacking WB? I thought that would work.

Which role would be safest to convert into an Attack duty? (AMC or the wing forwards) when Zaza plays. If Vietto or Mina play, then they are AF.

C/S combo can work, but for me when playing a 4231, I wouldn’t be comfortable with my CD’s aggressively trying to win the ball higher up the pitch, as top heavy formations are susceptible to counter attacks, and this will likely make it worse. Also, why try and play offside when you’ve got a cover duty CB dropping behind the D-line looking to sweep up through balls? 

Why does Zaza have to be a DF-S? You’re making massive changes to how the tactic performs on the pitch just by changing one role. I’m sure all three of your strikers can play as a DLF-A, so that they are creating space/making runs for your AP-S. 

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50 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

The C/S pairing would accentuate the qualities of each player.

And how's that working out for you.  You also keep swerving my point on the offside trap.

I haven't asked any question here to get a response.  I'm asking them to help you to stop and think.  You've already said the system isn't going too well and yet most answers you've given above would indicate the opposite: "C/S pairing isn't an issue" (it is); "the C/S pairing would accentuate the qualities" (seemingly not); "I want Parejo closer to goal" (so that he can take long shots?!?); "the ST + AML/R will all be attacking the box" (but without any urgency) and so on.

51 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

Which role would be safest to convert into an Attack duty? (AMC or the wing forwards) when Zaza plays. If Vietto or Mina play, then they are AF.

As jc577 says above.  It doesn't have to be a DLF-A, but if you're going to play with an AP at AMC, consider what the role does and which roles around it may benefit from and compliment it.  The AP needs space to operate, does your striker and two wide players help with that?

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10 hours ago, herne79 said:

And how's that working out for you.  You also keep swerving my point on the offside trap.

I haven't asked any question here to get a response.  I'm asking them to help you to stop and think.  You've already said the system isn't going too well and yet most answers you've given above would indicate the opposite: "C/S pairing isn't an issue" (it is); "the C/S pairing would accentuate the qualities" (seemingly not); "I want Parejo closer to goal" (so that he can take long shots?!?); "the ST + AML/R will all be attacking the box" (but without any urgency) and so on.

As jc577 says above.  It doesn't have to be a DLF-A, but if you're going to play with an AP at AMC, consider what the role does and which roles around it may benefit from and compliment it.  The AP needs space to operate, does your striker and two wide players help with that?

I thought this when looking at the player attributes. I did want one CB to close the gap between defense and midfield, and push away any tall strikers from goal.

I must admit I was unsure of what formation to play. I was thinking 4-3-3 at the start, but I had no idea how to distribute midfield roles well. I guess I don't know that in another system, either.

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6 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

I thought this when looking at the player attributes. I did want one CB to close the gap between defense and midfield, and push away any tall strikers from goal.

I must admit I was unsure of what formation to play. I was thinking 4-3-3 at the start, but I had no idea how to distribute midfield roles well. I guess I don't know that in another system, either.

I'd recommend reading some more stickies then. Especially this one...

 

https://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/403153-Building-A-Tactic-From-The-Beginning-And-Maintaining-It-Long-Term

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On ‎19‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 13:21, Bunkerossian said:

 

Valencia Club de Fútbol_  Overview.png

Good afternoon.  May I ask a question which I think has been overlooked?  Why is the DCL a ball playing defender (BPD)?

I sometimes think of this role as playmaker in the back line.  I know its not a playmaker role by definition but it plays longer passes and riskier passes.  Just as a playmaker would.  Such a role can be really useful in a counter attack setup or perhaps if you lack a midfield playmaker.  However you actually have two playmaker roles in midfield already so this is where it becomes muddled and confusing for me.

To use Soler properly I'd think you want him to take a nice easy pass to feet from the defence.  This I would reason is why you chose the TI 'play out of defence'.  But then you've counteracted this by telling Munilo to be a BPD & play through balls.  You may disagree with my logic, but hey, its just how I see the game.

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1 minute ago, Robson 07 said:

Good afternoon.  May I ask a question which I think has been overlooked?  Why is the DCL a ball playing defender (BPD)?

I sometimes think of this role as playmaker in the back line.  I know its not a playmaker role by definition but it plays longer passes and riskier passes.  Just as a playmaker would.  Such a role can be really useful in a counter attack setup or perhaps if you lack a midfield playmaker.  However you actually have two playmaker roles in midfield already so this is where it becomes muddled and confusing for me.

To use Soler properly I'd think you want him to take a nice easy pass to feet from the defence.  This I would reason is why you chose the TI 'play out of defence'.  But then you've counteracted this by telling Munilo to be a BPD & play through balls.  You may disagree with my logic, but hey, its just how I see the game.

I'm not sure myself, if a BPD would go long with the TI Play Out of defense. Maybe he would? I don't know the exact threshholds for actions of players.

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8 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I'm not sure myself, if a BPD would go long with the TI Play Out of defense. Maybe he would? I don't know the exact threshholds for actions of players.

I believe 'play out of defence' will shorten the BPD's passing range, however, it would not remove play more risky passes aka through balls.  A through ball is a pass into space, typically if you are moving up the pitch and attacking this would be a pass that a player runs on to.

In your setup Munilo, your BPD, has a static central defensive partner next to him.  He is unlikely to want a through ball.  Same goes for your central mid (defend) and Soler the playmaker.  These players won't be making lots of forward runs off the ball either.  The only player it may combine well with is the attacking left wingback. 

Anyway to utilise Soler properly, if that's what you want to do, with him as a genuine playmaker in the side I'd have the DCL as a normal central defender.

Edited by Robson 07

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I set up my attacking four as IFa F9s SSa and Ws which seems very effective as all players score goals and get assists as well. They move around (back & forth) which makes it very hard for the opponent defenders. My DM is a more conservative setup with SVs and Ad (sometimes a DLPd) which makes it very hard to counter against my team. The defensive line is WBs BPDc CDs + FBa, their main task is a clean sheet and both full backs offer wide support if it's needed.

Edited by YasoKuul

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