The 4231 Explained

[scwiffy]

Just now, herne79 said:

You don't get "sussed" by opponents.  Ever.  It's a myth.  The AI is incapable of figuring out how you play, it's not part of the programming.

The AI can (and is quite good at) adapting how they play against you based on your form or reputation, either over a period of time or even during a single match.  So for example if you are successful in the first half of the season you may find that opponents start to play more cautiously against you, or if you are leading 2-0 away from home at half time the AI may come out fighting in the second half.  But that's very different from sussing out how you play.

So the AI doesn't adapt any more than mentality or formation wise? In FM17 I noticed an increase in opponents exploiting my weak areas (eg crosses and space left by my attacking wing backs) after a certain amount of time. Often I use tactics successfully for a whole season, buy better players that fit the roles more for the second season and same tactic just doesn't work, surely its more than opposition just sitting back more?

[herne79]

9 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

So the AI doesn't adapt any more than mentality or formation wise? In FM17 I noticed an increase in opponents exploiting my weak areas (eg crosses and space left by my attacking wing backs) after a certain amount of time. Often I use tactics successfully for a whole season, buy better players that fit the roles more for the second season and same tactic just doesn't work, surely its more than opposition just sitting back more?

Yes it is more than just mentality, formation or just sitting back more, I didn't say otherwise.  The AI can make a whole raft of changes.  But they're not changing because they've figured out that you are using certain tactical instructions aka being "sussed out" as you mentioned.

[scwiffy]

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Yes it is more than just mentality, formation or just sitting back more, I didn't say otherwise.  The AI can make a whole raft of changes.  But they're not changing because they've figured out that you are using certain tactical instructions aka being "sussed out" as you mentioned.

Maybe "sussed out" was a little strong worded?

So are you saying that the AI can/will make a whole raft of changes but not to specifically target your sides vulnerabilities? Or are you simply saying an opponent won't learn from a other opponents success against you (or something to that effect)? I hate to pry but my curiosity is getting the better of me.

Edited November 10, 2017 by scwiffy

[herne79]

I'm simply saying that the AI is not capable of looking at your tactical system, figuring out the tactical settings you are using and adapting it's own tactics to counteract yours.  Just as you can't see your opponent's tactical settings, your opponent can't see yours.

[yonko]

3 hours ago, herne79 said:

I'm simply saying that the AI is not capable of looking at your tactical system, figuring out the tactical settings you are using and adapting it's own tactics to counteract yours.  Just as you can't see your opponent's tactical settings, your opponent can't see yours.

Although now we can see more info on the pre-match scouting report - like team mentality, team shape and player roles used by our opponents. This gives us a better idea how the opponents may initially set up. However, the change during match still need to be observed in comprehensive mode highlight view.

[Aksi92]

How can I fit 2 wingers in this kind of tactic?

https://imgur.com/wKQSw5m

This is how I set up my tactic and I am not very happy with my attack. I score mostly from counter attacks and set pieces. My striker doesnt exist in my team, he has 1 shot per game and I tried all kind of roles. I am quite happy with my 2 midfielders and I think that they are doing their job. Defence is also solid conceding 5 goals in 8 games. I feel that players are rushing forward in attack like crazy. My winger gets the ball and try to dribble and cross right away even if there are 2 players for open pass. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Aksi92

[Diego Imposta]

9 minutes ago, Aksi92 said:

How can I fit 2 wingers in this kind of tactic?

https://imgur.com/wKQSw5m

This is how I set up my tactic and I am not very happy with my attack. I score mostly from counter attacks and set pieces. My striker doesnt exist in my team, he has 1 shot per game and I tried all kind of roles. I am quite happy with my 2 midfielders and I think that they are doing their job. Defence is also solid conceding 5 goals in 8 games. I feel that players are rushing forward in attack like crazy. My winger gets the ball and try to dribble and cross right away even if there are 2 players for open pass. 

Try changing the Advanced Playmaker attack to an Attacking Midfielder on support and changing your left Winger support to an Inside Forward on support.

Your two wingers would then be the Wing Back attack (left) and the Winger attack (right)

Edited November 10, 2017 by Diego Imposta

[herne79]

3 hours ago, yonko said:

Although now we can see more info on the pre-match scouting report - like team mentality, team shape and player roles used by our opponents. This gives us a better idea how the opponents may initially set up. However, the change during match still need to be observed in comprehensive mode highlight view.

Don't treat those reports as gospel.  I was told my last 2 opponents were using a 4-1DM-2-3 and a 4-2DM-1-3 but they played against me using a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-4-2 respectively.  If the basic formation can be wrong then so can less obvious things such as mentality, shape and roles.

[Cleon]

9 hours ago, Aksi92 said:

How can I fit 2 wingers in this kind of tactic?

https://imgur.com/wKQSw5m

This is how I set up my tactic and I am not very happy with my attack. I score mostly from counter attacks and set pieces. My striker doesnt exist in my team, he has 1 shot per game and I tried all kind of roles. I am quite happy with my 2 midfielders and I think that they are doing their job. Defence is also solid conceding 5 goals in 8 games. I feel that players are rushing forward in attack like crazy. My winger gets the ball and try to dribble and cross right away even if there are 2 players for open pass. 

You use wingers yet work the ball into the box? Seems a bit counter productive imo. A wingers role is to cross the ball, by working the ball into the box you take away from this, so you'd be better off using different roles completely. Your system is really aggressive in the final third having 3 of the 4 players on attack duties. Your striker is probably isolated because he is reliant on the wingers crossing the ball to him when he's likely marked 2v1 in a lot of scenarios. And your AP probably has a lot of work to do to feed him the ball accuratly consistently for 90 minutes. You don't have much balance in the attacking third.

Throughout the thread I've spoke about movement and support. You lack this. Read some of the comments in the opening posts and in the replies for ideas of how to combat it. I must have mentioned this about 20 times in the thread at least. Everyone seems to suffer the same mistakes.

[Deisler26]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

You use wingers yet work the ball into the box? Seems a bit counter productive imo.

This never occurred to me. I always considered 'Work Into The Box' to be the shout for when you didn't want shots from outside the box.

[Jean0987654321]

1 minute ago, Deisler26 said:

This never occurred to me. I always considered 'Work Into The Box' to be the shout for when you didn't want shots from outside the box.

It does that but it also reduces crosses into the box.

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, Deisler26 said:

This never occurred to me. I always considered 'Work Into The Box' to be the shout for when you didn't want shots from outside the box.

 

4 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

It does that but it also reduces crosses into the box.

What Jean said

Also your wingers shouldn't be shooting that much anyway, crossing is their main focus. If your wingers are shooting frequently then I'd be looking at why and focusing on the support they have. Chance are they're shooting because they have no target to aim for.

[Cleon]

I've actually finished the next part of this, I finished it earlier this morning. So will likely post it up later today or tomorrow. 

[Cleon]

POST 3 UPDATED WITH THE NEXT PART

[Armistice]

20 minutes ago, Cleon said:

POST 3 UPDATED WITH THE NEXT PART

Just read it. Could we say that your AMC is an example of a link-up player between midfield and attack in this your system?

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Just read it. Could we say that your AMC is an example of a link-up player between midfield and attack in this your system?

He is yeah.

[Toffle]

Great analysis! I feel like your opponent was closing down a lot, would be interesting to see how it goes facing a more passive opponent.

Even if "an article that shows how the players behave different on a higher mentality" sounds really good, I think it would be great to go deeper into the analysis first.

Thank you!

[Cleon]

18 minutes ago, Toffle said:

Great analysis! I feel like your opponent was closing down a lot, would be interesting to see how it goes facing a more passive opponent.

Even if "an article that shows how the players behave different on a higher mentality" sounds really good, I think it would be great to go deeper into the analysis first.

Thank you!

They were a passive opponent and not really closing down at all. Cutting off passing angles/lanes and getting bodies in the way is different to closing down heavily. If they closed down heavily my winger wouldn't have been double up upon, he'd have had time on the wing and would have beat his man several times. I'm sure as it goes on they'll be plenty more analysis. I even stated in the article you mention that the analysis wasn't finished. The players near the winger never aggressively went searching for him, which is what closing down hevaily would have done. Instead his marker stayed close and the players around where always aware of the dangers and cut across to deal with the dangers of him coming inside. This wasn't down to closing down settings as such.

Let's not lose sight of the thread though, this isn't a game I'm playing. The game was created to show how the 4231 works and why the deeper versions are all superior. So while showing how my shape functions, I think keeping focus on why its superior overall compared to 2 MC's and more aggressive versions makes much more sense. However that's not to say the stuff you want won't be discussed as it likely will. But I don't want to be bogged down in analysis I don't think is useful overall. My Forged In Steel series is likely to touch up this stuff more.

[rdbayly]

@Cleon - Good stuff. I'd like to experiment with this tactic but need a second version of it to hold on to a lead as I'm failing to see out matches. Would the deep version of the 4231 with 3 midfielders in the MC / ML/R strata be a decent base for this? (Obviously with lower mentality and modified roles / duties) 

[Cleon]

10 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

@Cleon - Good stuff. I'd like to experiment with this tactic but need a second version of it to hold on to a lead as I'm failing to see out matches. Would the deep version of the 4231 with 3 midfielders in the MC / ML/R strata be a decent base for this? (Obviously with lower mentality and modified roles / duties) 

I stated in the opening articles that the deeper versions were vastly superior compared to the MC/AMC versions. However you should be more than capable of holding onto/seeing out games with the DMC version. Maybe concentrate on why you can't hold onto a lead rather than doing something so drastic and changing shape completely. Try and focus on the why something happens as its likely no matter what formation you use, the same would happen again. 

[rdbayly]

6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Maybe concentrate on why you can't hold onto a lead rather than doing something so drastic and changing shape completely.

Key reasons:

1. The AI goes attacking, often using 3 strikers

2. My players making unforced errors in the last few minutes which turns possession over

3. Not enough bodies back, particularly midfielders in the AM strata not tracking runners from deep (this is why I thought it wise to make a version of the 4231 with 2 midfielders in the DM strata and in the CM strata)

[scwiffy]

Hi Cleon,

I notice you talk about variety and a staggering effect when you talk about the wing backs and I can see it with your wingers too. When creating my tactics I'm very guilty of symmetry, purely because I like players to be flexible and swap wings (if possible) also makes substitutions and backups easier. Same reason I not a fan of asymmetric formations. Would you recommend I abandon this approach/mentality? I'm sure you can still make symmetrical tactics work, but would you say they can be less effective?

Also would you recommend making a mirrored version of these type of tactics to avoid being "sussed" by league opponents?

Completely separately, you talk about your winger providing crosses from deep and the byline but aren't these aren't these made to be conflicting instructions in FM? I also find it very hard to get the FM match engine to make any AML/R to track back (with maybe the exception of a defensive team mentality)

100% echo what you say about playmakers in the AMC role.

[Cleon]

Quote

I notice you talk about variety and a staggering effect when you talk about the wing backs and I can see it with your wingers too. When creating my tactics I'm very guilty of symmetry, purely because I like players to be flexible and swap wings (if possible) also makes substitutions and backups easier. Same reason I not a fan of asymmetric formations. Would you recommend I abandon this approach/mentality? I'm sure you can still make symmetrical tactics work, but would you say they can be less effective?

Why would one approach be less effective than another?  Also why can't someone who uses a asymmetric formation be as flexible as someone who doesn't? Plus is symmetry mean't that much to you, I'd assume you'd use the same roles and duties on the opposite sides of the pitch, if not automatically when a phase of play happens you become asymmetrical anyway. If you have any hang ups about anything or wont do certain things then you are the one at the disadvantage compared to the user who doesn't have enforced rules which don't make much sense and don't really offer anything at all by having them.

I don't understand why someone would try and handicap themselves and have set things like this.

Quote

Also would you recommend making a mirrored version of these type of tactics to avoid being "sussed" by league opponents?

You had this answered several times yesterday by @herne79 and he explained fully how it works. It doesn't really need repeating. If you just want a mirrored version then have one if you have a reason to. If its just for the sake of it, then what's the point?

Quote

Completely separately, you talk about your winger providing crosses from deep and the byline but aren't these aren't these made to be conflicting instructions in FM? I

Why are they conflicting? A player can cross from deep regular and provide crosses from the byline less frequent. A player can also make crosses from the byline regular but odd time might favour a deeper one. How is that conflicting?  Conflicting would be using a winger when you've set the team up not to make the most of crosses or ask players to work the ball into the box. To me that is what confliction is, asking someone to do something different to what the role actually does.

Quote

I also find it very hard to get the FM match engine to make any AML/R to track back (with maybe the exception of a defensive team mentality)

They track back. It's just users have unrealistic expectations and think the player can track back to DR/DL and still be advanced in the AML/R slots constantly. But realistically the higher up the pitch someone plays the harder it is to have them track back consistently and effectively due to the starting positions.

[Cleon]

24 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

Key reasons:

1. The AI goes attacking, often using 3 strikers

2. My players making unforced errors in the last few minutes which turns possession over

3. Not enough bodies back, particularly midfielders in the AM strata not tracking runners from deep (this is why I thought it wise to make a version of the 4231 with 2 midfielders in the DM strata and in the CM strata)

1. If the opposition goes to 3 strikers this plays straight into your hands as it means they have less midfielders or defenders.  3 strikers shouldn't cause issues when you have 4 defenders and 2 DMC's, just how much protection do you need 

2. If its unforced errors its player related or settings related.

3. I'm unsure how you are set up? But the AMC tracks back and is deep enough in the system I use, you can see that in the post I added this morning. 

[Guest El Payaso]

Ended up with this so far. First of all had to change the striker role as the CF on support was constantly ruining our attacks by getting into offside position 7-12 times a game. 

Some of the attacking play at the moment is really delightful but am really worried about our defending. The midfield trio combined with the centre backs seems just too passive and I'm still facing the issues with the opposition strikers dropping deep and either shooting from range or setting someone else up. Tried Lemos a couple of times as a stopper but at least against a 4-4-2 it ended up being a disaster as first Defoe was setting up king by having space in front of Lemos and when I changed him to be a stopper Defoe started running behind him and getting through on goal. Dropping the defensive line didn't help on that. 

I have set my keeper to distribute short so that I can utilize both my BPD and DLP better in build ups and I think that they are both now contributing more and releasing some delightful long balls towards both of my wide players and the striker who still seems to be hard for the AI to mark away even though I'm not anymore using CF. They don't seem to be able to cope with dropping deep either. I think that false nine has the potential to be even better.

I'm a little bit worried about Viera though as he probably is the best player in the team along with Vitolo but he has been quite quiet. He is getting a couple of shooting chances a game but is taking hard shots instead of trying to find better solution. I think I might consider making him a support role with instruction to get higher up the pitch. Might link up better with DLP by that. Also I'm thinking of making the DM(D) an anchor man as his higher closing down isn't really doing any good for the team so might as well have him just sitting there statically and perhaps covering the WB a bit better.

It's a constant WIP but that I guess the pre-season is made for. Am I going right or wrong direction @Cleon?

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, El Payaso said:

Ended up with this so far. First of all had to change the striker role as the CF on support was constantly ruining our attacks by getting into offside position 7-12 times a game. 

Some of the attacking play at the moment is really delightful but am really worried about our defending. The midfield trio combined with the centre backs seems just too passive and I'm still facing the issues with the opposition strikers dropping deep and either shooting from range or setting someone else up. Tried Lemos a couple of times as a stopper but at least against a 4-4-2 it ended up being a disaster as first Defoe was setting up king by having space in front of Lemos and when I changed him to be a stopper Defoe started running behind him and getting through on goal. Dropping the defensive line didn't help on that. 

I have set my keeper to distribute short so that I can utilize both my BPD and DLP better in build ups and I think that they are both now contributing more and releasing some delightful long balls towards both of my wide players and the striker who still seems to be hard for the AI to mark away even though I'm not anymore using CF. They don't seem to be able to cope with dropping deep either. I think that false nine has the potential to be even better.

I'm a little bit worried about Viera though as he probably is the best player in the team along with Vitolo but he has been quite quiet. He is getting a couple of shooting chances a game but is taking hard shots instead of trying to find better solution. I think I might consider making him a support role with instruction to get higher up the pitch. Might link up better with DLP by that. Also I'm thinking of making the DM(D) an anchor man as his higher closing down isn't really doing any good for the team so might as well have him just sitting there statically and perhaps covering the WB a bit better.

It's a constant WIP but that I guess the pre-season is made for. Am I going right or wrong direction @Cleon?

You're going the right direction for sure. However I feel you are giving preseason more credit than it deserves especially as your tactical familiarity only seems be to be around 70-75%. Some of these issues could be down to this, and remember pairings too, I doubt your side understands each other well enough yet. So some of these issues might clear up when that's full. 

[Cleon]

Btw retain possession and play out of defence might be impacting Viera and the play might be far too slow and forced to utilise him bombing forward.

[Guest El Payaso]

7 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Btw retain possession and play out of defence might be impacting Viera and the play might be far too slow and forced to utilise him bombing forward.

Might be so. I will study this by looking his performances more closely. The thing just is that my board is demanding me to play both possession and attacking football so retaining the possession is something that I have to do. I hope that Viera will pop up better during the regular season like players often do compared to pre-season. With that attacking quartet that I have in Vitolo, Viera, Halilovic and Calleri I feel that there is a lot of potential to be play some really attractive attacking play. Really different styles compared to what I usually play with. 

Thank you for help. 

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, El Payaso said:

Might be so. I will study this by looking his performances more closely. The thing just is that my board is demanding me to play both possession and attacking football so retaining the possession is something that I have to do. I hope that Viera will pop up better during the regular season like players often do compared to pre-season. With that attacking quartet that I have in Vitolo, Viera, Halilovic and Calleri I feel that there is a lot of potential to be play some really attractive attacking play. Really different styles compared to what I usually play with. 

Thank you for help. 

All possession football equals is 51% a game really, anything that has possession in your favour is classed as possession football by the board. So you don't have to retain possession. Also for attacking football it just means shots at goal. So anything 10+ a game will be fine.

I don't think there is actually anything wrong with your set up. I'd say its more down to the team not gelled yet and tactic familiarity. That aside the only things 'd look at is the TI's you use. Make sure that roaming from position isn't have a detrimental effect on what the players are doing. I personally don't think you have any roles that actually benefit from roaming. Your players are doing specific jobs or already have space imo.

[Dennis_Ajax]

My setup so far and I see some potential for a good working tactic.

Formation/instructions:

 

The idea is to build up trough my CB's and DLP and play high pressure possession based football. This is working out okay so far but I am not satisfied yet with how things play out in the final third. Is it harder this year to create chances? I often see that my wingers shoot from strange angles and distances, even when there are better options available.  

The idea behind the use of the IWB is to create a extra threat high up the pitch and could act as a underlap for the winger. Do you think this will work out good? 

 

 

Results/Stats:

CL against Juve

 

 

 

[Cleon]

Offside trap while playing on a lower mentality is asking for trouble.

[Dennis_Ajax]

42 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Offside trap while playing on a lower mentality is asking for trouble.

Could you explain this for a bit? When selecting a much higher defensive line it shouldn't be a bad thing?

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, Dennis_Ajax said:

Could you explain this for a bit? When selecting a much higher defensive line it shouldn't be a bad thing?

You use a low mentality, so even when you use the TI a much higher defensive line, it's still not that high compared to a tactic on control/attacking. It's only much higher based on the mentality you use, it just increases the base of that mentality. So it's still low really and risky on lower mentalities imo. I'd never use ever if it was me.

[Aksi92]

11 hours ago, Cleon said:

You use wingers yet work the ball into the box? Seems a bit counter productive imo. A wingers role is to cross the ball, by working the ball into the box you take away from this, so you'd be better off using different roles completely. Your system is really aggressive in the final third having 3 of the 4 players on attack duties. Your striker is probably isolated because he is reliant on the wingers crossing the ball to him when he's likely marked 2v1 in a lot of scenarios. And your AP probably has a lot of work to do to feed him the ball accuratly consistently for 90 minutes. You don't have much balance in the attacking third.

Throughout the thread I've spoke about movement and support. You lack this. Read some of the comments in the opening posts and in the replies for ideas of how to combat it. I must have mentioned this about 20 times in the thread at least. Everyone seems to suffer the same mistakes.

This is what I was talking about my wingers.

So this is situation where my right winger have tha ball. 3 open players for pass and he decides to drible and lose the ball. 

 

My wingers had 0 % crosses entire game...

[Mr.Dust]

Great topic cleon, really good. The "segundo volante" role is really interesting with this formation. I think its good to think that you need a really good AMF to build your team around him. If the team play around him they will score a lot of goals

[Cleon]

3 minutes ago, Aksi92 said:

This is what I was talking about my wingers.

So this is situation where my right winger have tha ball. 3 open players for pass and he decides to drible and lose the ball. 

 

My wingers had 0 % crosses entire game...

Where are the 3 open players? The 3 all clustered together behind the ball and being obscured by the oppositions player? This is an issue with your roles/TI's/Duties or whatever. The winger has no choice but to run. The positioning in that screenshot is awful 

[Aksi92]

We just won the ball so I am seeing this like attempt for counter attack. But still its so stupid to rush forward when you can step on the ball for a second and wait for your players to spread up. 

[cbcruz]

5 minutes ago, Aksi92 said:

We just won the ball so I am seeing this like attempt for counter attack. But still its so stupid to rush forward when you can step on the ball for a second and wait for your players to spread up. 

I completely agree.

[blackdevil]

@Aksi92 What instructions does Dallas have?

I'm guessing it's: dribble more, run wide with the ball, cross more often, cross from byline, get further forward, stay wider

If that's the case isn't he doing what you've told him to do?

For him to do anything else he'll need the freedom to stray from your instructions.  And on top of that he'll need decent vision, decisions and passing skills AND for his team mates to decent off the ball, anticipation, decisions skills for them to make the movements for him to be able to pass to them.

None of the available passing options (of which I can see 3) are easy.  The first is back behind him to one of the CM's.  The second is infield to the half way line for one of the midfielders to run on to and the third is a ball over the defence for the striker to run on to. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by blackdevil

[Aksi92]

Those are default PI for Winger. I am not using additional instructions. 

[Cleon]

11 minutes ago, Aksi92 said:

We just won the ball so I am seeing this like attempt for counter attack. But still its so stupid to rush forward when you can step on the ball for a second and wait for your players to spread up. 

He's doing what you've told him to be, he is fulfilling his role of a winger. The fact is, you don't have 3 players free who are in active play at all. It's silly that you've given the player a role that tells and instructs him to run down the wing with the ball then moan when he does it. Yet the issue is the 3 people who are clumped together, this is down to you. The roles/duties or whatever are not balanced. Even if you've just won the ball back, that is overkill. The fact is the issue is your instructions and you setting up a player to play a specific way and when he does exactly that, you want him to do something else.

If you can't see that, I honestly can't help you 

[Aksi92]

So the question would be why DLP-S, BTB and AM-S are clumped together?

[Cleon]

Just now, Aksi92 said:

So the question would be why DLP-S, BTB and AM-S are clumped together?

Yeah, as you want them to spread and be passing outlets. The winger is fine he's doing as instructed. The other players I've no idea why all 3 would be that close. Even if you just won the ball back, that means all 3 of them got drawn into the same defensive situation. If you look at your screenshot this leaves your entire midfield exposed, so if you lost the ball again now quickly. 1 simple pass to the oppositions right takes out 6 of your players and they'd all have to scramble across, which realistically they'd never recover in time.

[blackdevil]

If that's the case then I presume that's what you want him to do?  If it's not then it would be worth considering another role so you can match the instructions to what you want.

Try not to think of the role name making them a "winger".  To me anyone that plays wide midfield is a winger so any of the roles can be used to make the "winger" do what you want.  It applies to any position on the pitch really.

As Cleon has mentioned many times (and others in other threads) you need to consider what the other players are doing.  No one role does anything on their own, everything they do is (hopefully) in conjunction with everyone else in the team.  

edt* beaten to it as I'm too slow to articulate and type out the response

Edited November 11, 2017 by blackdevil

[scwiffy]

10 hours ago, Cleon said:

Why would one approach be less effective than another?  Also why can't someone who uses a asymmetric formation be as flexible as someone who doesn't? Plus is symmetry mean't that much to you, I'd assume you'd use the same roles and duties on the opposite sides of the pitch, if not automatically when a phase of play happens you become asymmetrical anyway. If you have any hang ups about anything or wont do certain things then you are the one at the disadvantage compared to the user who doesn't have enforced rules which don't make much sense and don't really offer anything at all by having them.

I don't understand why someone would try and handicap themselves and have set things like this.

I’m not trying to handicap myself, I’m  trying to learn and improve my approach, hence the question. When creating tactics I find I naturally start with symmetric duties/roles and I was just wondering whether I should be actively looking  to stagger players/roles more from the start as it seems like something you were clearly aiming to achieve when listing the player duties/roles.

10 hours ago, Cleon said:

Why are they conflicting? A player can cross from deep regular and provide crosses from the byline less frequent. A player can also make crosses from the byline regular but odd time might favour a deeper one. How is that conflicting?  Conflicting would be using a winger when you've set the team up not to make the most of crosses or ask players to work the ball into the box. To me that is what confliction is, asking someone to do something different to what the role actually does.

FM made them appear conflicting to me, for example in the PI menu when I select cross from the byline, cross from deep reds out. But clearly this was my misunderstanding so I’m glad I asked.

11 hours ago, Cleon said:

They track back. It's just users have unrealistic expectations and think the player can track back to DR/DL and still be advanced in the AML/R slots constantly. But realistically the higher up the pitch someone plays the harder it is to have them track back consistently and effectively due to the starting positions.

 Haha yes that’s pretty much spot on.

[SmashtonGate84]

This is slightly unrelated, but Cleon what highlights are you using during the game or is it 2D classic and again for when you are reviewing the game, what are you reviewing the match from, goals or key highlights etc?

[Cleon]

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I’m not trying to handicap myself, I’m  trying to learn and improve my approach, hence the question. When creating tactics I find I naturally start with symmetric duties/roles and I was just wondering whether I should be actively looking  to stagger players/roles more from the start as it seems like something you were clearly aiming to achieve when listing the player duties/roles.

The point still stands though, why would you want the same roles/duties on both sides? Why wouldn't someone want variety. It's not just something I do, it's something that happens in real life too, no 2 players usually play the exact same way.

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FM made them appear conflicting to me, for example in the PI menu when I select cross from the byline, cross from deep reds out. But clearly this was my misunderstanding so I’m glad I asked.

That's because you can't instruct the player to play both. Adding PI's makes that setting the preference. It doesn't mean it's the only thing he does, it means you're instructing him to that settings more frequently, hence why you cannot select both. But like in the original example, it doesn't mean that it all he does and that he'll never cross from deep etc.

 

[Cleon]

9 minutes ago, SmashtonGate84 said:

This is slightly unrelated, but Cleon what highlights are you using during the game or is it 2D classic and again for when you are reviewing the game, what are you reviewing the match from, goals or key highlights etc?

I don't use 2d at all. The people who claim that is the best way to review a tactic and shows you everything are misinformed. 3d does it just as good. As for what I do to review a match, then it would be the full game. Sometimes might be a goal or highlights. Highly depends on what I'm looking for an how problematic it is. The more problematic the more I watch.

When playing the game I just play on key highlights though.

[SmashtonGate84]

Awesome, thanks much appreciated.

[Aksi92]

Seems like my tactic clicked when I put my both wingers on MRL positions (Inverted winger and classic winger) and both CM on DM (DLP-D and SV-A). I dont think that you can be very successfull with two wide wingers. Your attack is one dimensional. All they do is giving the ball to the winger and hope he will go past his man and find the attacker with the cross.  

That Segundo Volante role is really just too good to be true. Need a couple of matches more to test it but looks good.

 

And I do all this moaning and complaining being first in Championship all season long

Edited November 12, 2017 by Aksi92