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Teach me the dark arts - Mourinho 17/18

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Help with replicating man utd 3-5-2 and/or 4-2-3-1 for the 17/18 season?

Could someone point me in the right direction?

I have started with Man Utd, attempting to replicate Mourinho’s 17/18 system. I’ve used a 4-2-3-1 wide with my team playing controlling, structured football by playing out of the back. We get stuck in and stick to our positions with little creativity. 

My team has a typical GK (Dea Gea), 2 defenders (Bailly & Jones), Wing Back on Attack (Valencia) and a Complete Wing Back with support duty (Shaw). Matic acts as a Central Mid (Defend) and Pogba a Mezzala (Attack). Rashford the Raudmuter, Mhkitaryan a Trequartista that roams around, Mata as a advanced playmaker (support) whom cuts in and Lukaku, a complete forward (support) who drops deep to link up play.

Seems accurate, doesn’t it? 

However, I'm losing badly to big teams, and barely scraping thru wins. Oddly enough, this tactic leakes in lots of goals! (Mourinho is a master of defence)

I’ve also been asking myself some questions:

• Should Pogba be a RPM, AP or a Mezzala?

• Should I place both central midfielders in the DM strata, with Matic as a DLP (D) and Pogba as a Segundo Volante (Attack)?

• Is Matic more of a CM (D) or DLP (D)?

 

Any help or advice appreciated, thanks 🙏!

Edited by goqs06

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You should read Cleons thread on the 4231 or watch videos that explain the weaknesses of th 4231. Your use of the mezzala in a 2 man midfield is not recommended cos he roams, if you want to use him then the fullback behind him has to be very good

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10 hours ago, goqs06 said:

• Should I place both central midfielders in the DM strata, with Matic as a DLP (D) and Pogba as a Segundo Volante (Attack)?

I think this could definitely work, or you could give Matic the DM-S role. If you were to play both in the CM strata then I’d go for a CM-D, RPM combination.

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28 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I think this could definitely work, or you could give Matic the DM-S role. If you were to play both in the CM strata then I’d go for a CM-D, RPM combination.

Should try that, thanks mate!

36 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You should read Cleons thread on the 4231 or watch videos that explain the weaknesses of th 4231. Your use of the mezzala in a 2 man midfield is not recommended cos he roams, if you want to use him then the fullback behind him has to be very good

Good advice indeed, will look that up.

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As a Man Utd fan, I do think that the 4231 in this game is inadequate in trying to emulate how we play. Remember, defensive shape is your team shape in this game. So, I would think about how my team defends and honestly, they defend in a 4-5-1ish shape but attack in a 4-2-3-1. I took a look at how a few of the new roles work and I can say that a few of those could fit well.

This is how I would emulate the side

Counter/Rigid

SK (d)

CWB (a)-CB (s)-BPD (c)-WB (a)

----------SV (a)----------------------

WP (a)---------CM (a)-DLP (d)--IW (a)

----------------CF (a)-------------------

This shape should able to emulate the extreme tracking back of the midfielders. They do a LOT of work on both sides of the field. (And if anyone asks the CM (a) is down the middle)

TIs

Pass Into Space

Play Out of Defense

Whipped Crosses

Stay On Feet

Close Down Much More/Tighter Marking/Prevent Short GK Distribution (But only if facing a weaker opponent)

PIs:

GK: Distribute Quickly, Roll It Out

DLP (d) - Close Down Less

WP (a) - Get Further Forward

IW (a) - Sit Narrower, Roam From Position

 

Whether to put the Matic role in the CM or DM strata is up for debate but IMO I think Matic's position in attack is a bit higher than the DM strata would allow...

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15 hours ago, goqs06 said:

Help with replicating man utd 3-5-2 and/or 4-2-3-1 for the 17/18 season?

Could someone point me in the right direction?

I have started with Man Utd, attempting to replicate Mourinho’s 17/18 system. I’ve used a 4-2-3-1 wide with my team playing controlling, structured football by playing out of the back. We get stuck in and stick to our positions with little creativity. 

My team has a typical GK (Dea Gea), 2 defenders (Bailly & Jones), Wing Back on Attack (Valencia) and a Complete Wing Back with support duty (Shaw). Matic acts as a Central Mid (Defend) and Pogba a Mezzala (Attack). Rashford the Raudmuter, Mhkitaryan a Trequartista that roams around, Mata as a advanced playmaker (support) whom cuts in and Lukaku, a complete forward (support) who drops deep to link up play.

Seems accurate, doesn’t it? 

However, I'm losing badly to big teams, and barely scraping thru wins. Oddly enough, this tactic leakes in lots of goals! (Mourinho is a master of defence)

I’ve also been asking myself some questions:

• Should Pogba be a RPM, AP or a Mezzala?

• Should I place both central midfielders in the DM strata, with Matic as a DLP (D) and Pogba as a Segundo Volante (Attack)?

• Is Matic more of a CM (D) or DLP (D)?

 

Any help or advice appreciated, thanks 🙏!

my manutd tactic :

20171102035938_1.thumb.jpg.6d08414f047a20567c5ac7f69d2a7faa.jpg

20171102040011_1.thumb.jpg.3b809361ee978a44d1de52d5a2335391.jpg

CM & AP,should hold position. 

watch the game,on comprehensive highlights.

don't care vs big team or weak team,bus parking when necessary.

result so far :

20171102040101_1.thumb.jpg.4e083b0a25abd561f69fbc53ce2f3595.jpg

 

 i think my defend is ok,quite good.

i'm still learning how to use Lukaku.He is a TM.
14 match 9 goal from Lukaku.But i still not happy with how he play on the pitch

Edited by kpsia518

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16 hours ago, goqs06 said:

My team has a typical GK (Dea Gea), 2 defenders (Bailly & Jones), Wing Back on Attack (Valencia) and a Complete Wing Back with support duty (Shaw). Matic acts as a Central Mid (Defend) and Pogba a Mezzala (Attack). Rashford the Raudmuter, Mhkitaryan a Trequartista that roams around, Mata as a advanced playmaker (support) whom cuts in and Lukaku, a complete forward (support) who drops deep to link up play.

Seems accurate, doesn’t it? 

I disagree personally.

 

The left wing back imo is not a complete one, he's a more standard, more defensive wing back. Valencia is more attacking/direct than Blind (or Shaw if he ever gets a game), with the LWB being more of an additional passing option (so WB/S). Pogba is essentially a RPM/DLP, the heartbeat of that midfield and an important creative outlet.  Rashford or Martial are direct runners with the ball, so Inside Forwards, not raum's, and it is arguable that Matic may well be a DM/D or DM/C depending on the game, as he can get forward quite a bit, though he is usually the more defensive minded of the midfield trio.

 

Mkhti is CM/A, generally, I don't think he's a playmaker in Mourinho's system, but he very often gets the ball and goes forward. In a deep DM 4-2-3-1, I'd put him as CM/A, in an AM 4-2-3-1, I'd hazard a guess at putting him as AM/S with dribble more? 

 

Mata is the other tricky one, I don't see him as an out and out playmaker in the Mourinho system, but he has license to roam and drift. Possibly, maybe a case to say a wide Treq? I'm not sure, that's the one sticking point 'role' for me tbh. Structured makes sense, not sold on the idea that Mourinho plays a control system, I'd say it would be more neutral to the more counter side of things, give or take.

 

(Can't suggest the FM18 roles as I don't have that game. :O )

 

 

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7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Personally I prefer to play the 4231 in FM18 with a SV its very strong.

The SV to me is like a defensive box to box mid with attakcing attributes, a very complete one. Vieira and Keane would immediately come to mind as examples.

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16 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I disagree personally.

 

The left wing back imo is not a complete one, he's a more standard, more defensive wing back. Valencia is more attacking/direct than Blind (or Shaw if he ever gets a game), with the LWB being more of an additional passing option (so WB/S). Pogba is essentially a RPM/DLP, the heartbeat of that midfield and an important creative outlet.  Rashford or Martial are direct runners with the ball, so Inside Forwards, not raum's, and it is arguable that Matic may well be a DM/D or DM/C depending on the game, as he can get forward quite a bit, though he is usually the more defensive minded of the midfield trio.

 

Mkhti is CM/A, generally, I don't think he's a playmaker in Mourinho's system, but he very often gets the ball and goes forward. In a deep DM 4-2-3-1, I'd put him as CM/A, in an AM 4-2-3-1, I'd hazard a guess at putting him as AM/S with dribble more? 

 

Mata is the other tricky one, I don't see him as an out and out playmaker in the Mourinho system, but he has license to roam and drift. Possibly, maybe a case to say a wide Treq? I'm not sure, that's the one sticking point 'role' for me tbh. Structured makes sense, not sold on the idea that Mourinho plays a control system, I'd say it would be more neutral to the more counter side of things, give or take.

 

(Can't suggest the FM18 roles as I don't have that game. :O )

 

 

Then, would Lukaku still be a CF or is he more like a TM or AF? Is he more of a creator or a flat track bully that harries the CBs?

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My United side collects yellow cards for days, Matic and Herrera collected a staggering 30 yellows between them in season 1. Can give it a go if you'd like.

4-3-3 (flat CM trio, AMR/AML + ST), Counter/Flexible

IF(a)-----------AF(a)----------IF(s)

-----CM(d)---CM(a)---CA(s)-----

FB(a)----CB(d)---CB(d)----FB(a)

---------------GK(d)----------------

*CA is Carilero, one of the new roles introduced.

Team Instructions: Hit Early Crosses, Higher Tempo, More Closing Down, Get Stuck In, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Pass Into Space

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On 01/11/2017 at 23:30, Rashidi said:

Personally I prefer to play the 4231 in FM18 with a SV its very strong.

I’d try that out with Fellaini.  If I’d play Rashford as a no 10, would he be a AM (S), T (A) or a AP (S)?

Edited by goqs06

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I see everyone here just talking about the roles and no one has mentioned the traits that these players have. You need to consider the traits they have in the game. Naturally no 2 interpretations will be the same. The overall goal should be to come close to them, but still keep them solid enough to make them enjoyable to play. And this could lead make them inaccurate replications but fun to play nonetheless.

i will take a look at this once I get my head out of the beta. There is just too much to do between now and Nov 10.

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11 hours ago, EuanDewar said:

For people who've played the beta: has this issue been fixed? (please let's not relitigate whether or not it is an 'issue', I'm just asking :) )

Why don't you open another thread, instead of hijacking this?

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On 01/11/2017 at 15:30, Rashidi said:

Personally I prefer to play the 4231 in FM18 with a SV its very strong.

I like the SV but having 2 DMs stops my IWB sitting inside compared to a lone DM.  With the SV pushing forward I thought a IWB helping cover him would be a good combination.

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Hi @Cleon, I have read in some threads, including yours on 4-2-3-1Explained, that the “Pogba” role is very difficult to replicate. Some say that he was a pure BBM in his early days at Juve, and in the 15/16 season, played a more advanced role as a AP or MEZ in the midfield 3 of himself, Marchisio and Khedira. (Correct me if I am wrong, I’m not really an expert on Italian football!). However now at Man Utd, he is debated to be a RPM, DLP or BBM. It is said that Pogba isn’t really an RPM as many perceive. Quote “He's more like a deep box to box player but offering so much more. He should score a decent amount and grab a fair few assists too during a season. He does everything. It's almost like a complete midfielder role. In attacking phases he's 'unrestricted' as such and involved in every single aspect”. Many would jump and say that he’s a SV (A). However, Pogba doesn’t play in a DM strata but instead in the CM. Is it possible to get a complete midfielder in the CM strata?

Edited by goqs06

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16 hours ago, goqs06 said:

Hi @Cleon, I have read in some threads, including yours on 4-2-3-1Explained, that the “Pogba” role is very difficult to replicate. Some say that he was a pure BBM in his early days at Juve, and in the 15/16 season, played a more advanced role as a AP or MEZ in the midfield 3 of himself, Marchisio and Khedira. (Correct me if I am wrong, I’m not really an expert on Italian football!). However now at Man Utd, he is debated to be a RPM, DLP or BBM. It is said that Pogba isn’t really an RPM as many perceive. Quote “He's more like a deep box to box player but offering so much more. He should score a decent amount and grab a fair few assists too during a season. He does everything. It's almost like a complete midfielder role. In attacking phases he's 'unrestricted' as such and involved in every single aspect”. Many would jump and say that he’s a SV (A). However, Pogba doesn’t play in a DM strata but instead in the CM. Is it possible to get a complete midfielder in the CM strata?

How is he not really an RPM? An RPM won't get in the box as much as a box to box (so deep box to box). But gives him the creative freedom and dribbling.

Otherwise you could just go CM(s).

Edited by NabsKebabs

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Stick Fellaini up front, with the PPM Stay Inside Penalty Area, then just roll with these team instructions:  Contain, Fluid, Get Stuck In, Go Route One, Hit Early Crosses.  

Get you playing like Manu in no time.  

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5 hours ago, Lobaeux4 said:

Stick Fellaini up front, with the PPM Stay Inside Penalty Area, then just roll with these team instructions:  Contain, Fluid, Get Stuck In, Go Route One, Hit Early Crosses.  

Get you playing like Manu in no time.  

Sorry, @Lobaeux4 what would Fellaini's best role and duty as a striker be? I would argue that thou Mourinho's teams are quite defensive, they still do Counter on the break, like hitting long balls and starting rapid and quick moves to start attacks. Hence I would say their mentality is Counter and not Contain which is quite ultra-defensive.

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12 hours ago, goqs06 said:

Sorry, @Lobaeux4 what would Fellaini's best role and duty as a striker be? I would argue that thou Mourinho's teams are quite defensive, they still do Counter on the break, like hitting long balls and starting rapid and quick moves to start attacks. Hence I would say their mentality is Counter and not Contain which is quite ultra-defensive.

I think he's joking, mate

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I am joking.  After watching Manu’s performance against Chelsea, this is what Jose has become.

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16 hours ago, Lobaeux4 said:

I am joking.  After watching Manu’s performance against Chelsea, this is what Jose has become.

I know you didn’t mean any harm... 😄 Just hope that Mourinho switches to playing (counter) attacking Football. I miss the old days of Ferguson...

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