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FootballManager89

Is it easier to make tactics this year?

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20 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

 

 We took a lead, then the AI hit us with a counter using the 424. When I conceded the equaliser I realised what I had done wrong, I had committed my players in closing down the AI heavily in their own half, in fact, I had played their game. By closing the AI down heavily I had committed my players further up the pitch, even if we were to win the second ball, we would not be in a good position to counter. So we conceded the first goal. When we took the lead, the AI went back to the 424, this time I changed my OIs and my removed my high block. Went structured and set direct passing on my wingbacks. T'was a simple strategy, we soaked and hit them off the break.

 

 

There is nothing simple about anything you just said to the average user. You guys have been playing this game since the beginning, for people like me who have no clue what to look for let alone what to do there isn't anything simple about what you just said. Simple for you? Sure. Simple for the average user? Definitely not. I don't have an issue with FM having a serious learning curve but the issue is there is no straightforward learning path to become good at the game. All you get is a bunch of guys telling you a million different things and unless there was a step by step way of learning this game its very hard to understand. I've been playing since fm15 and while i have made one successful tactic that won the premier league with crystal palace. That was only one season out of thousands that I have played. The game is very difficult and it may be and should be easy for you, but the average player is going to have an extremely difficult time playing this game and there is no clear learning path here. Is there a lot of content out there? Yes but without an actual structured learning process I don't know how anyone can become good at this without spending the kind of time that should be devoted towards a meaningful career. 

Edited by FootballManager89

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23 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I haven't had an issue with the match engine thus far, I do believe that the AI Manager needs to be a bit more intelligent. Case in point, I did this 45 second video to show what I mean.

At the heart of it, its never been  more easier to make a working tactic. Let me explain: 

There are now more tools that give you valuable feedback, and I know behind closed doors we are working on tuning some of these even more. There are now, Scouting Reports that are more detailed even showing you how two teams line up against one another or was that in Analyst reports. Both have now been boosted, then we have the key pass combos which have a fantastic addition this year that I was working hard on to see get improved because it is already the single biggest aid in the game. I used that tool to hit the team off the break in the video above, by analysing how they play when they switch to a 424.

Then we have other tools like the tactical grid, granted it doesn't show shape effects, but how much more help do we need?  Shape effects are notoriously difficult to describe visually since roles and duties morph them in a game. So the best thing is to see how each role and duty balances each other out. The grid does just that and then you have partnerships that change over time. Ok, people are complaining about Dynamics but I took a manager with suggested coaching badges and within 3 months I have my squad eating out of my hand? Why cos I pay attention to very easy information to track in the game.  There is a theme here. There is information in the game, if you sit down and think about it, its easy to figure out what this information should be.  I am disappointed SI included Mentality and Shape advice in the game in the form of reports, but I guess we needed some way to make the analyst reports relevant. 

Since 2003, @Cleon me @Hunter @Barside @herne79 @themadsheep2001 and countless others have given the same advice over and over again. If you look through each thread we posted you will find that our tactics for FM17 won't be too far away from our tactics for FM15, granted there may be slight differences to account for the wide area defending we had in FM17,  and the new roles we are all itching to add, but the principles of making a balanced tactic that makes sense still remain the same.

It's not rocket science, the problem arrives when users make tactics that are inherently unstable and then expect SI to fix problems they should have been able to avoid in the first place. To give you some context, in that video we weren't favourites. We took a lead, then the AI hit us with a counter using the 424. When I conceded the equaliser I realised what I had done wrong, I had committed my players in closing down the AI heavily in their own half, in fact, I had played their game. By closing the AI down heavily I had committed my players further up the pitch, even if we were to win the second ball, we would not be in a good position to counter. So we conceded the first goal. When we took the lead, the AI went back to the 424, this time I changed my OIs and my removed my high block. Went structured and set direct passing on my wingbacks. T'was a simple strategy, we soaked and hit them off the break.

In my second match, faced with the same kind of opponent and playing away from home I did something like that for 90 minutes, we won with 3 counter attacking goals. 

The logic in creating tactics hasn't changed, what I still think needs improvement is actually making the AI tougher to beat, by adding a layer of unpredictability to its systems. This, however, may never happen till we see the new match engine, which I strongly believe is already in development. And if that ever happens, god help those who think the AI is hard now, but will SI ever make the game that hard? Nah.

 

I often think some people want to believe the game has got significantly harder, or that the posts have shifted, to cover for their own struggles. You even have that malicious few who try and discredit who actually understand the concepts. But the harsh truth is that there has never been more information to understand whats going on. There's got to be a realisation that some need to go back to basics, and really pay attention to what is around them

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13 minutes ago, FootballManager89 said:

I've been playing since fm15 and while i have made one successful tactic that won the premier league with crystal palace.


IF that was first season, and that's your expectation, from my experience in particular long-term, it's no wonder you deem this to be "hard". What if SI coded the game to be like football, ironed all the bugs out and eradicated its weakness, and made it pretty darn hard to impossible to achieve such first season, such as it would be in football, where tactics can only do this much? Have you ever seen Palace's AI manager even approaching similar? Because those are your opponents, and those are your game inherent "levels of difficulty", really. Lately I haven't seen the AI managing Napoli deemin this to be hard either on that guy's save where they finished 10th third times in a row.

When I say tactics are pretty straight forward is that anybody being able to put a modicum of team sports basics into the UI should get their side to at least perform to the level it's expected to perform. If you aim for targets like that, good luck. This is intended to be a football simulation game, and there's evidence that the coders are eyeing such achievements with suspicious, as they know this is typically only doable due to a severe weakness in their code (ME defending / AI). That doesn't mean they aim to make it impossible to win stuff with Palace, or any 6th tier side. But it should take a bit more than that... having the players, for instance, developing the squads that may suit.

Edited by Svenc

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Can someone help me, where is swap position with this year? I cant find it anywhere. SS will be helpful...

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7 hours ago, FootballManager89 said:

I plugged that tactic in and i'm getting destroyed.

and @FMunderachiever (who upvoted this comment above) - that's because the whole purpose of the thread is to discuss and explore the principles of using the formation in order to help you understand things better, not to just blindly copy the system presented.

Also only two posts on the topic have been made so far by the author, with all the follow up analysis and tweaking yet to come.

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38 minutes ago, savicss said:

Can someone help me, where is swap position with this year? I cant find it anywhere. SS will be helpful...

Right click position gird on tactics screen > Edit player position> Click on a position, swap position is at the bottom.

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Thanks, but I still do not see it.

You mean Edit player Instructions? I was looking there, but I do not see it on that screan. If you mean Go to player Instructions, there at the bottom I only see Add Players button.

Here are ss:

https://imgur.com/a/JPzSs

https://imgur.com/a/YIEgz

Maybe I just do not see it, thats why I asked for SS...

 

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51 minutes ago, savicss said:

Thanks, but I still do not see it.

You mean Edit player Instructions? I was looking there, but I do not see it on that screan. If you mean Go to player Instructions, there at the bottom I only see Add Players button.

Here are ss:

https://imgur.com/a/JPzSs

https://imgur.com/a/YIEgz

Maybe I just do not see it, thats why I asked for SS...

 

1.jpg.2bfbf3f3effe4be33b5f66dd11b39d85.jpg2.thumb.jpg.7bc9ed682b9de8f800d1a4de01007cd5.jpg

 

Step 1 Right click player instructions, Step 2 choose position on grid then see bottom panel the SWAP option shows up

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Thanks, I was not on position, I was on player on that screen, that was problem. Now I see it. 

Edited by savicss

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22 hours ago, KUBI said:

What tactics are you using?

I`m trying to play possession based 4-1-2-3 DM formation, and after 100 failed attempts to set proper roles(im restarting the save until my tactics will work), we are still playing horribly. But maybe I judge too fast? I basicly restart the save with different tactics when I see that it`s not working after 2-3 friendlies, should I wait longer? Anyway right now I play

with

WB(atk) CB CB WB(atk)

               DM(def)

        AP(sup)     AP(atk)

IF(atk)      F9(sup)  IF(atk)

Control, retain possession, play out of defense, very fluid

 

And the results after 3 friendlies are yet again horrible. First friendly 0-0 draw, second friendly 2-0 lose, third friendly 1-0 lose. I`m soo frustrated, im thinking of just deleting the game and never buying it again. Oh, and im playing with Barcelona.

Edited by zigaliro

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44 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

I`m trying to play possession based 4-1-2-3 DM formation, and after 100 failed attempts to set proper roles(im restarting the save until my tactics will work), we are still playing horribly. But maybe I judge too fast? I basicly restart the save with different tactics when I see that it`s not working after 2-3 friendlies, should I wait longer? Anyway right now I play

with

WB(atk) CB CB WB(atk)

               DM(def)

        AP(sup)     AP(atk)

IF(atk)      F9(sup)  IF(atk)

Control, retain possession, play out of defense, very fluid

 

And the results after 3 friendlies are yet again horrible. First friendly 0-0 draw, second friendly 2-0 lose, third friendly 1-0 lose. I`m soo frustrated, im thinking of just deleting the game and never buying it again. Oh, and im playing with Barcelona.

Honestly, that's about as far from being a possession based system as I can think of.  Wingbacks bombing forward trying to cross all the time (which will mostly end in lost possession); 2 advanced playmakers trying to make risky passes; 2 attacking inside forwards trying to dribble their way into trouble.  It's set up to be attacking and to leave you open in defence down the flanks.

Please read the pinned thread at the top of the Tactics forum in the "Please Read This" thread called the Art of Possession (don't just copy the tactic though, try to understand the principles being discussed to help you build your own).

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16 hours ago, herne79 said:

and @FMunderachiever (who upvoted this comment above) - that's because the whole purpose of the thread is to discuss and explore the principles of using the formation in order to help you understand things better, not to just blindly copy the system presented.

Also only two posts on the topic have been made so far by the author, with all the follow up analysis and tweaking yet to come.

Youre unbelieveably touchy. I got a warning for talking about a mythical fat programmer!! So if youre fat i apologise for offending you.

 

A constructive point would be change the terminology within the game to make it more accessible and enjoyable for more people.

I can make some good tactics for teams and some i fail at.

 

But that new red zone stuff on the tactics screen is guff. Ive won the eredivisie with feyenoord ignoring the assistant and the diagram becuase its nonsense. I wanted to dominate everything with juve but didnt.

 

What the game is failing at is the reams of complete gook that players are bombarded with. And crap football in the match engine.

When all else fails chuck loads of forwards on and go direct. Or use 4141 asymetric. Both will break your game. Dont need a help manual for that.

 

 

 

 

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Maybe people worry too much about tactics and neglet other areas of the game which can be just as important. Yes tactics are important but you could be gifted a tactic from an FM god and you could still easily struggle. As with most simulations there are many variables and when it comes to FM you could have the same tactic the same players the same team etc but with everything else to be considered in this "managment" sim you will still get very different results!

 

Team talks, press talks, player interactions, team and individual training the list goes on can be just as important as the tactic. 1 example would be for instance your creative player has just made a goal and scored a goal and after the match you will get 3 different options to praise him in the player interactions screen. 1 to praise him for his passing, 1 to praise for his creativity and the last to praise his actions infront of goal. Now if you choose the last option the player although will be happy with the praise he will now think you expect him to keep scoring which will effect greatly how much he will try to create chances for other players in your next match which could ruin the previous working team balance you had the match before.

 

If you use the tools si have given to you to the full then if anything the game should start to feel too easy. Documentation could be a heck of alot better on Si's part.

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7 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

Youre unbelieveably touchy. I got a warning for talking about a mythical fat programmer!! So if youre fat i apologise for offending you.

I'm neither touchy, mythical, fat nor a programmer and no idea why you brought any of that up.

To be clear, someone was struggling with a 4231.  I pointed them in the direction of an excellent thread currently being written about the 4231.  When they simply copied the tactic and it didn't work for them (which you upvoted) I stated why to both that person and you to help you both understand the purpose of the thread.  Nothing to do with anything else, just that one point.

If you have other issues with the game I suggest you use the Beta Feedback thread, the Bugs Forum (if you have examples) or the Feature Request Forum if you have new ideas on things to include in the game.  Or if you struggle with Tactics you could visit the Tactics & Training forum to see if anyone there may be able help you.

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22 hours ago, Rashidi said:

1.jpg.2bfbf3f3effe4be33b5f66dd11b39d85.jpg2.thumb.jpg.7bc9ed682b9de8f800d1a4de01007cd5.jpg

 

Step 1 Right click player instructions, Step 2 choose position on grid then see bottom panel the SWAP option shows up

Does this swap as a one-off or will this be repeated automatically throughout the match?

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55 minutes ago, Fritz13 said:

Does this swap as a one-off or will this be repeated automatically throughout the match?

They will swap repeatedly

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Following this thread with interest. I've been playing this series since CM3 and it's my favourite type of computer game, but I'm simply not interested in investing months reading through hundreds of threads on tactics and then hours before each game analysing the opposition and adjusting my team accordingly. I put over 6,000 hours into FM12, 500 into FM15, and nothing since. I've been missing it and was very keen to buy into FM18.

I'm not complaining. SI have constantly sought to make the tactical side of the game more onorous and they're entitled to do so. Many people enjoy that side of things - fine. But it's not for me, and after the first few posts holding out some hope that there may be a way back into the game for players like me, all those since (including those peoploe defending the system) are making it more and more clear that Football Manager is no longer a game that I would enjoy playing.

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33 minutes ago, Charlie_B said:

Following this thread with interest. I've been playing this series since CM3 and it's my favourite type of computer game, but I'm simply not interested in investing months reading through hundreds of threads on tactics and then hours before each game analysing the opposition and adjusting my team accordingly. I put over 6,000 hours into FM12, 500 into FM15, and nothing since. I've been missing it and was very keen to buy into FM18.

I'm not complaining. SI have constantly sought to make the tactical side of the game more onorous and they're entitled to do so. Many people enjoy that side of things - fine. But it's not for me, and after the first few posts holding out some hope that there may be a way back into the game for players like me, all those since (including those peoploe defending the system) are making it more and more clear that Football Manager is no longer a game that I would enjoy playing.

To be honest I never spend much time on tactics, never set up or mess around with team instructions, and never read the forums for advice on tactics, I've pretty much been using a simple 4-2-3-1 as my main tactic, with few little tweaks here and there on player roles or positions for 3-4 years and it always seems to work, and so far on fm18 is still working.

So there's no reason why you can't enjoy it, you don't need to spend loads of time on the tactics, there's nothing wrong with just doing and using the basics, sometimes messing around with it too much and over analysing your tactics, will make it not work.

Edited by sedge11

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Guest El Payaso

With all this people winning the Premier league with Crystal Palace and people like GoldenFM going full seasons unbeaten while big AI teams keep struggling are seriously making me think about refunding the game. If the AI is on that level and it once again doesn't take any skill or effort to be successful then I am most certainly playing the wrong game here. It's quite uninspiring to face an AI club with 4-4-2 and having poacher and advanced forward as their strikers while all the midfield is on support and defend.

The tactics process itself might be easier this year with all the feedback and to be fair SI have made it really user friendly for many iterations. Even if you do not know or want to learn the stuff with team shapes etc. you will be doing quite well with just basic tactics like selecting a 4-5-1 and always remembering to have a good balance in terms of attack, support and defend roles on each line. This is something that takes you 1-2 minutes to create 1-2 successful tactics. I have never exactly seen the point of going any deeper from this as I don't feel that you will see the changes in the ME or stats as your team will score the goals more or less in the same way and the players' statistics will quite much look like the same.

All this 'spending hours' doing something in the game is a bit laughable as you most certainly don't have to do any of that to be successful. You can even be successful by using key highlights solely, holidaying between games and using that 1-2 minutes for tactics. And while this by any means isn't a good thing, it still is true.

For me making the team play in a way that I want can be quite challenging while making a solid tactic and being successful is really easy. Sadly the difficulty level is basically same as the level of the AI and SI don't seem to be either capable or willing to make the AI so that it is actually tough to beat especially in long run. Sadly this is slowly growing me out of FM as I stopped playing the game really early during FM 2017 and was waiting this year's iteration more than possibly ever and then losing all that excitement even before I have actually played the game.

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12 hours ago, El Payaso said:

For me making the team play in a way that I want can be quite challenging while making a solid tactic and being successful is really easy. Sadly the difficulty level is basically same as the level of the AI and SI don't seem to be either capable or willing to make the AI so that it is actually tough to beat especially in long run. Sadly this is slowly growing me out of FM as I stopped playing the game really early during FM 2017 and was waiting this year's iteration more than possibly ever and then losing all that excitement even before I have actually played the game.

My sentiments exactly. Always liked attempting to recreate styles of football, but the match engine and tactics creator are so limiting that it's basically impossible most of the time. And winning stuff with the same style of play as all the other teams isn't as fun.

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On 3. 11. 2017 at 23:44, herne79 said:

Honestly, that's about as far from being a possession based system as I can think of.  Wingbacks bombing forward trying to cross all the time (which will mostly end in lost possession); 2 advanced playmakers trying to make risky passes; 2 attacking inside forwards trying to dribble their way into trouble.  It's set up to be attacking and to leave you open in defence down the flanks.

Please read the pinned thread at the top of the Tactics forum in the "Please Read This" thread called the Art of Possession (don't just copy the tactic though, try to understand the principles being discussed to help you build your own).

Thanks for the tips. Well, I now changed the player roles quite a lot.

 

This is how it is now:

WB(sup) CB CB WB(sup)

               DM(def)

          BBM  AP(sup)

IF(atk)         F9         IF(sup)

Instructions: Retain possession, play out of defense, dribble less

I`ve only played with this tactics in 4 friendlies, and the results have been mixed. First two friendlies 1-0 win and 2-1 win. Possession was great(60%+), but we didn`t create that many quality chances as I want to. But the next two friendlies, for some reason completely different story. 1-1 draw and 3-2 defeat. Terrible possession, and barely any chances. I`m now lost again -_-

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Seems very narrow as a tactic and with no roaming I don't see how you can draw out teams that would defend hard against you.

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I'd suggest you tell your wb's to stay wider and have one of them to get further forward. Same with your IF's. You want them to cut inside when they have the ball, but when your team is in possession you want them to stay wide to draw attention to them to create space for your team. Think how wide Neymar was when at Barcelona. The IF-A may be a bit redundant on control/very fluid also. 

 

also, those roles you put each player in basically don't mean much. I would suggest going into tactics player tab and see what those roles are really telling your players to do. For example, a BBM is basically a CM-S that has roam from position. Friendlies aren't the best way to judge a tactic either. You want to see how it goes in competitive play when it is fluid. Or load up touch mode and make changes that way.

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On 11/3/2017 at 09:09, Rashidi said:

I haven't had an issue with the match engine thus far, I do believe that the AI Manager needs to be a bit more intelligent. Case in point, I did this 45 second video to show what I mean.

At the heart of it, its never been  more easier to make a working tactic. Let me explain: 

There are now more tools that give you valuable feedback, and I know behind closed doors we are working on tuning some of these even more. There are now, Scouting Reports that are more detailed even showing you how two teams line up against one another or was that in Analyst reports. Both have now been boosted, then we have the key pass combos which have a fantastic addition this year that I was working hard on to see get improved because it is already the single biggest aid in the game. I used that tool to hit the team off the break in the video above, by analysing how they play when they switch to a 424.

Then we have other tools like the tactical grid, granted it doesn't show shape effects, but how much more help do we need?  Shape effects are notoriously difficult to describe visually since roles and duties morph them in a game. So the best thing is to see how each role and duty balances each other out. The grid does just that and then you have partnerships that change over time. Ok, people are complaining about Dynamics but I took a manager with suggested coaching badges and within 3 months I have my squad eating out of my hand? Why cos I pay attention to very easy information to track in the game.  There is a theme here. There is information in the game, if you sit down and think about it, its easy to figure out what this information should be.  I am disappointed SI included Mentality and Shape advice in the game in the form of reports, but I guess we needed some way to make the analyst reports relevant. 

Since 2003, @Cleon me @Hunter @Barside @herne79 @themadsheep2001 and countless others have given the same advice over and over again. If you look through each thread we posted you will find that our tactics for FM17 won't be too far away from our tactics for FM15, granted there may be slight differences to account for the wide area defending we had in FM17,  and the new roles we are all itching to add, but the principles of making a balanced tactic that makes sense still remain the same.

It's not rocket science, the problem arrives when users make tactics that are inherently unstable and then expect SI to fix problems they should have been able to avoid in the first place. To give you some context, in that video we weren't favourites. We took a lead, then the AI hit us with a counter using the 424. When I conceded the equaliser I realised what I had done wrong, I had committed my players in closing down the AI heavily in their own half, in fact, I had played their game. By closing the AI down heavily I had committed my players further up the pitch, even if we were to win the second ball, we would not be in a good position to counter. So we conceded the first goal. When we took the lead, the AI went back to the 424, this time I changed my OIs and my removed my high block. Went structured and set direct passing on my wingbacks. T'was a simple strategy, we soaked and hit them off the break.

In my second match, faced with the same kind of opponent and playing away from home I did something like that for 90 minutes, we won with 3 counter attacking goals. 

The logic in creating tactics hasn't changed, what I still think needs improvement is actually making the AI tougher to beat, by adding a layer of unpredictability to its systems. This, however, may never happen till we see the new match engine, which I strongly believe is already in development. And if that ever happens, god help those who think the AI is hard now, but will SI ever make the game that hard? Nah.

 

 

On 11/3/2017 at 09:29, FootballManager89 said:

There is nothing simple about anything you just said to the average user. You guys have been playing this game since the beginning, for people like me who have no clue what to look for let alone what to do there isn't anything simple about what you just said. Simple for you? Sure. Simple for the average user? Definitely not. I don't have an issue with FM having a serious learning curve but the issue is there is no straightforward learning path to become good at the game. All you get is a bunch of guys telling you a million different things and unless there was a step by step way of learning this game its very hard to understand. I've been playing since fm15 and while i have made one successful tactic that won the premier league with crystal palace. That was only one season out of thousands that I have played. The game is very difficult and it may be and should be easy for you, but the average player is going to have an extremely difficult time playing this game and there is no clear learning path here. Is there a lot of content out there? Yes but without an actual structured learning process I don't know how anyone can become good at this without spending the kind of time that should be devoted towards a meaningful career. 


I'm in the boat with FooballManager89.
Had it been a real life situation i would have known exactly what to do and how to remedy it.
In the game i have no clue about how to use the tools. Everytime i see someone say something like what Rashidi is saying, all i hear and read is a knowledgable professor talking about über-high level of chemistry and maths with his equals.
Not a dig, Rashidi :D
I do not have a clue in how to use the tools given to me, how to read the analysis and how to act upon it in the game. 
The highlighted part in particular sounds great and looks great. Then i take the advice and try to figure it out myself, how to do stuff like that.
I'm basically just staring at the screen not knowing how the heck i will come to conclusions like that.
As i mentioned. IRL i would spot it and do something about it very easily. In the game i don't have a clue. Even though tools have been given to me.
I don't know how to use those tools. 

Let's take the tactical grid, in a hypothetical situation. I understand the grid. I understand that sometimes something has to give in order for my tactics to work.
Then i look at my next opponent. They also have that grid. And for argument's sake; It looks terrible. They have terrible players and a manager who seemingly doesn't know anything.
I try to give it an effort to use the tools given to me. I try to adjust accordingly while sticking as close as i can to my core tactics, which may or may not be balanced.
Fast forward and i've been absolutely destroyed, and i have no idea how or why. Even though i try to read the analysis (shallowly and analytically) i don't know how to "decipher" it.

What doesn't help me, as a tiny little example and pointer, is tiny stuff that was mentioned earlier.
Fluid keeps your team more compact and Structured more spread out (loosely said). That is the complete opposite of what my interpretation, both self-interpreted and being taught by professionals, is.
That's just a little clue to where my world clashes with the FM world; and as a result, confuses the hell out of me.

I have read countless guides and watched countless videos and i'm still clueless about the tactics-side of this game.

Do i find it easier this year? Hell no.
It took me about 40 in-game years on FM17 to find a core tactic that worked. To the point that i was successful for the first time since....i don't know....FM10? Don't know.
Now it's back to the drawing-board again. Which, in itself, isn't a bad thing. The bad thing is that it'll probably take me until next year before i have a lightbulb moment (potentially) and can acheive
some, at least, minor success.
I've already resigned/been sacked from 3 clubs in just over a year, in the game. Not a good sign :D

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A big problem I've seen in most of the tactics posted by people who are struggling is the lack of diversity when it comes to positional variance and movement of the ball. Everyone seems to want to use short passing, possession orientated football within a system that has players making movements that are not conducive to that style of football.

With slow build-up and minimal movements you give the opposition too much time to get back into defensive positions and behind the ball. The AI seldom comes out playing expansive and attacking football from the off in my experience. A word of advice without making this an essay is to get your passing varied and make use of the space on the pitch. Have playmakers and have runners. Let your playmakers play more direct. Your attackers will get into great positions (use a zoomed out camera) but playing short passing will mean you work the ball up slower. Of course this isn't always the case, some shorter passing systems can play more attacking, but generally, you want to get it up quicker. 

Pop it on mixed passing and determine the passing distances per player. Let a few of your players play more direct, some others shorter. In my 4231 I have my fullbacks and my DLP-su (CM) playing more direct, my central defenders short, my CM-de (next to the DLP) on short and everyone else on mixed. I dribble less and pass into space and still have up to 60% possession in games using a control//structured approach. 

I think Rashidi explains it best in some of his videos, but keep things varied. Have someone cutting in and overlapping one side, with wide runners and attackers on the other side. Don't be afraid to play quick, longer ranged passes through fear of not creation possession football, because short passing and retain possession isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things. Just keep things varied throughout the pitch, use an IF/W combo with your wide defenders on support/attack duties, for example, but make sure you have a support network in place for the positions and roles/duties you've chosen.

Edited by fmFutbolManager

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On 4.11.2017 at 14:46, El Payaso said:

It's quite uninspiring to face an AI club with 4-4-2 and having poacher and advanced forward as their strikers while all the midfield is on support and defend.

Coincidentally, I've been following a fellow countryman on his FM 17 career on the Tube today, and he was coming against PSG with his Ajaccio side. He set up to park the bus pretty much, dropping deep, changing his formation to a narrow one involving two forwards. The AI went for the top-heavy 4-2-3-1 Denmark with both the central midfielders on support duty, so pushing everybody up. The same thing that always follows, followed. Compressing the space the side was allowed to operate in going forward, and the keeper made to look ridiculously good every time the PSG players were pushed into a shot, which they were quite oftenly. Plus, set pieces galore, which when they happen in numberse, always make the shot conversion take a nose dive, typically. Headers under pressure will never be a tap-in at the end of a wonderful move constructed, even if you have Crouchie up there, which PSG don't have anyway. So, 27 PSG shots, zero goals, a corner kick alone for every third minute the ball was in play, all the usual stuff. If they would have been lucky, they might have still nicked it. Heck, on the odd day you may even see a side converting three direct free kicks in a single match (and I have), however that's stretching it massively. If they would have been unlucky. Ajaccio may have nicked it from one of their breaks though.

The entire idea that players actually frequenting the tactics forum a tiny bit, and them actually claiming "to struggle" for general results makes my head explode, too. It's always been argued that anybody struggling for such would be sorted out quickly, and yes. But then it's more oftenly revealed that in large parts, this isn't actually mostly about that many guys massively struggling once they make that jump. Most of them outperform what the respective AI manager would do quite oftenly. It's, as you argue, that older releases had weaker AI, and allowed you to HUGELY overperform even easier, even if the squad didn't have the players, oft through creative avenues. From what I know, SI have always said they never would tweak the game so that you'd need to be at the level of knowledge of some of the tactical mods, or else nobody would be able to play. However -- in the long-term I'm hoping the game will present a better balance between players and tactics anyway.

What I'm hopeful personally is this: Proper zonal defending that doesn't require AI (or any manager) to pet the few "holes" on the pitch that in tendency always exist. Plus that balance being correct, so that AI doesn't have to be onpar on the tactical levels to get better results, but simply on the occasion succed by having competitive/better squads. Which is also where long-term squad development kicks in. That said, yeah, it's somewhat discouraging every time you see something like that. Because that's stuff that's been covered in entry level guides published more than half a decade ago, and it is also basic/common sense. The AI certainly did what some argue the game wouldn't reward/punish: Completely neglecting team sports basics 101 by making the area players could play in / defenders were to defend completely small. Not in terms of width perhaps, but in terms of depth, a plenty.

Edited by Svenc

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Guest El Payaso

@Svenc and on the other hand it feels super strange that human users can do those same errors tactically and still keep going strong.

I've been following lot of these YouTubers throughout the years and seen that basically any of them don't know thing about tactics but instead just spam all the available instructions available and still are highly overarchieving. 

I don't know why I watch those videos as the key/extended highlights make the ME look so bad as the game can actually look quite good for like 70% of the match time but the parts that these highlights show are 90% rubbish. And with how little effort and knowledge those people master the game. Like let's watch this in key, let's do nothing and talk gibberish and look we're winning 3-0 at CL final second season with Watford. 

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I promise that if and when I start streaming that won't happen. Mostly it'll be me swearing at my useless defenders and throwing stuff around the room when we concede.

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13 hours ago, El Payaso said:

@Svenc and on the other hand it feels super strange that human users can do those same errors tactically and still keep going strong.

Well for PSG too it would lead to the added point drop. Generally, they would do well. That's still 27 shots, each of them still having some probability of getting converted -- how low it is. It's basically the AI version of a player raging about the game "being rigged", if it could voice frustration. It would lead to an added point drop on the odd occasion, which would make for such sweeping claims. Basically, if the AI was allowed to rant about "cheating humans", a supposedly "super keeper" (when it's just a competitive keeper made to look ridiculously good) and "forwards being useless" (when they have zero space to operate in once you make players sitting toe to toe to each other) -- that's precisely the kind of "tactical masterstroke" and "type of match" you would have it raging about. Doubly so if Ajaccio would have actually converted one of the arguably too few breaks and it had lost the match. :D

The game as such as never been terribly hard to me. Outside of a cover mount CD version of Champ Man I think 2, I got my first taste of FM exactly ten years ago from today, when the FM 2008 demo hit. Still remember how I took over Metz, who finished dead last, 20 points from safety, and was able to keep them slightly out of the drop zone by the end of the demo by the rather crude ploys of completely stuffing the own area on the tactical pitch, plus making a few general adjustments to the team sliders (I think I set the team mentality tto defensive, the passing to direct, never much touching the individual player instructions).

There's something additionally to keep in mind. So far, every major ME overhaul has punished/rewarded such football/team sports logics moreso than the one before. So I'm really curious what happens when the game models proper collision / body contact with players too, as that it's easy to see how that would draw a few things illogically / badly thought out bust all by itself, as runs could be properly "blocked" // players forced out the danger area by actually physical force and shoulder charging (what's allowed, anyway). You may remember that it wasn't that long ago when forwards off the ball basically were allowed to ghost through their markers as if they didn't exist.

What I'm going to do either way, and what I'm really curious, is checking any majorly underperforming big AI side when I get the opportunity to. Some of the aforementinoed stuff should be an absolutely no-go by FM 2018, and should be hard-coded into the game by now. Not only for difficulty's sake. FM may be a little rigid in terms of movement, and how it's tied to the duties (arguably, in real football, a really intelligent player would always stay a little deeper). However, this doesn't merely affect the difficulty. This affects what the Collyers have strifed for ever since day one: A believable simulated football world. Can't see the top guys ever commiting to such schoolboy error in real football.

Edited by Svenc

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I have a 4-4-1-1 formation that took a mid-table Scottish Premiership side to mid-table. 

Went on a nine game losing run between October and December, stuck by the tactics (swapped Wingers for Wide Midfielders after about five losses), and ended up picking results up. 

I've nothing more to add really, but I wonder how many people simply give up on good tactics because they've lost ~5 games on the trot, and then get into a cycle of using unsuitable tactics. 

Fwiw my actual real team has a tactic/style that led to an unbeaten start August-October, and have since gone about seven games without a win or even a goal.. 

Edited by RandomGuy.

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52 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I've nothing more to add really, but I wonder how many people simply give up on good tactics because they've lost ~5 games on the trot, and then get into a cycle of using unsuitable tactics

Arguably it's the difference between the YouTube type @ElPayaso has brought up and those really struggling. The Youtube type simply bludgeons through, never putting much thought into things anyway. The "struggling" type gets all panicky and makes it worse. What if the previous good run was influenced by a few good fortunes all itself, btw? And the tactical decisions weren't actually that good.... but the side simply being pitted against worse opposition, with half the key players injured, etc. etc.

This is all about being able to judge which result was lucky / just / unlucky, which the game has lacked in feedback. For as long as the game aims to model football, win margins mostly will remain by +1 and +2 goals, same as a good third of the matches ending in draws -- streaks will happen all by themselves. See also my above analysis of the PSG AI vs Ajaccio match, I deliberately didn't bring in any of the "chance categories* the game offers, but pointed out how despite the 27 vs 7 shot advantage, PSG AI would have been lucky to win this. This wasn't only due to rushed attempts, they got into the box a few times, but exclusively from set pieces, which is tough. What is doubly worse: Every kind of post match feedback in-game makes out that PSG would have been unlucky to just draw,  as the post match reports on this have always worked by the logics that if sides had more shots, they were destined to win this, which is madness. It would be madness in football. It would confirm the Ajaccio player too that his "park the bus" tactics didn't actually work, but he was lucky to not lose, despite him keeping the PSG AI to low probability shots all throughout.

 

* Btw, if you ever did some Maths, you would find that long-germ average the "clear cuts on this" are converted at below 40% rates, on target shots about 25%, half chances below 20%. You do the Maths here how telling any of such categories is, in particular if there is copious evidence that the worst clear cut chances are worse than an average on-target shot -- this is true in real football just as well, see the Opta "Big Chances", as a "big chance" in analysis starts at scoring probabilities of about 20% -- your average shot has a conversion of 10%, as a reminder.

Edited by Svenc

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Has anyone seen the opposition using any of the new roles yet as that would I imagine make things trickier 

not sure I remember seeing any IWBs in the oppo teams last year ....

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Guest El Payaso

@Svenc in my experience this ghosting through the defenders is still alive and well in the game as I see it all the time in the videos on YouTube. For me myself it's impossible to notice as I have never used the 3D. But this is one of the reasons  why so many goals on FM are so illogical as the defenders often look like they have no presence at all and they are just ghosted through. While in real life even bad defenders like Lovren and Matip can in a good day bully out players like Morata, Lukaku and Kane.

I remember that it was maybe FM 2016 when someone was praising Sebastian Giovinco in the game as he had him scoring huge amounts of goals in Serie A playing him as a lone forward and scoring most of the goals inside the penalty area and this for me is a thing that I always remember in the past games and that is still present. Because of the lack of presence and actual penalty area defending skills within the defenders you can make even the smallest players score any type of goals without having to worry about fitting your style of play to the players in your disposal. I bet that on FM 2017 this Giovinco type was one of the deadliest type of lone forward as a technical player with vision can do quite a lot with ~100 pass attempts close to the opposition penalty area. 

I remember also that on FM 14  I created my best ever counter attacking style by having Zac Clough as a false nine standing between the lines and setting up the wide duo Redmond and Demarai Gray without any resistance from the defenders. It was simply devastating and far too well flowing compared to any team IRL. This freedom to build for support role strikers took it's peak at FM 2017 but in my experience has luckily been nullified a bit in this newest version of the game. 

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28 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

@Svenc in my experience this ghosting through the defenders is still alive and well in the game

I know what you're refering to but it isn't the same (outside of glitches). If it would be alive and kicking, you'd still have tacticts being successful that boil down to this: Keep 7 players behind the ball (in-game: defend duty), and hoof it through isolated forwards. Now if they have some individually class, they may still do somthing. But not to the degree it was before. However, there is still that limitation, in that players aren't a physical presence "as such", which must impact the defending in several ways. AFAIK every time a player makes an off the ball run, the code checks if there is somebody in front of his -- and makes him run around him. Obviously, that has a few limitations... But long-term I can't see this being the "status quo", in particular as arcade one way soccer engines such as FIFA / PES have dealt in proper collision ever since some of their first incarnations.

Naturally in the current incarnations you have a slightly edge over AI if you know that the deeper/deepest midfielders aren't much pushed in general, and as such simple ploys of making a forward mark the deepest midfielder can give you an edge already on the occasion (which AI never does), which is not ideal (forward rarely tracking back problematic). Whilst it is true that deeper areas on the pitch are areas of less pressure, which had led to the development of the Regista/Deep-lying playmaker type in Italy, amongst a few other things, FM exaggerates this a tiny little bit. :D

Another thing that may get interesting is more realistic ball phyisic models, if they come to pass. Whilst it's always been argued that there is a benefit of not insisting on sweet and short passing on soggy pitches, and some of this is coded into the game -- it's never got to the piont that the ball would actually hugely come physically unstuck or something. Whilst such matches are rare (and in such conditions, typically post-poned prior to kick off), I still remember that Switzerland - Turkey Euro 2008 match where in the first half due to the heavyil soaked pitches, Switzerland had an edge, which faded in the second half as the rain had stopped and the ball didn't come stuck anymore.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

Arguably it's the difference between the YouTube type @ElPayaso has brought up and those really struggling. The Youtube type simply bludgeons through, never putting much thought into things anyway. The "struggling" type gets all panicky and makes it worse. What if the previous good run was influenced by a few good fortunes all itself, btw? And the tactical decisions weren't actually that good.... but the side simply being pitted against worse opposition, with half the key players injured, etc. etc.

This is all about being able to judge which result was lucky / just / unlucky, which the game has lacked in feedback. For as long as the game aims to model football, win margins mostly will remain by +1 and +2 goals, same as a good third of the matches ending in draws -- streaks will happen all by themselves. 

I'm maybe just naive but I never look at the CCC stat. I just watch the game on extended and use my gut to judge whether it was an "unlucky" game or not. Then just fiddle with instructions/roles dependent on the oppositions tactics. 

I'm not great at the game, but I'm not dreadful either, feel like people do massively over think things when common sense generally wins the day. 

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1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm not great at the game, but I'm not dreadful either, feel like people do massively over think things when common sense generally wins the day


Nails it, too, see also @El Payaso's insistance to never commiting much more than putting a healthy balance of duties in place (which govern forward runs, so more defend guys, more players staying behidn the ball and vice versa), and claiming that to be enough. I personally don't commit much to the tactical community these days, as despite the bad myth this game were impossible to play else, what you get to learn there is ridiculously more advanced than what any AI opposition may ever be able to engage in. The problem more oftenly is is that due to various reasons (and yes, UI/feedback can be a problem too), there is players that have never learned to apply common sense, which is where feedback/UI refinement can be also vital in the future. However, if they can't express what it is, there is no chance.

Plus, ideally, there being no possibility of spending hours on creating that "world beater tacticz", as that's just not football and likely drawn bust by any patch (frustration) -- nor the kind of thing AI ever engages in. There is copious evidence that players of this don't even know what the job of tactics is in football. Tactical decisions help to shape the playing style you want to impose on the team or help getting the best out of the players at your disposal. In-game they may shift the odds a few in/against your favor. They may be that extra percentage that may help to turn the added loss into a draw and draw into a win, like when you switch to your 4-3-3 overload ten minutes from time in an attempt to snatch an equalizer or when you put the dominating OP playmaker under pressure to nullify his threat -- sometimes to success, sometimes not much.

What tactics won't do is making poor sides competing for Europe consistently despite not engaging any all by themselves,  sides averaging 4, 5 goals consistently per match, and several more. As long as players don't learn that if they are getting sides to perform to their level they are doing well, if they outperform what the AI does with their sides they are already doing very well, and anything else is exceptionally, then such problems will persist all by itself. As it's not seldom a problem of perception, than an actual problem. There's a huge amount of players that outperform the current level of AI without even realizing. I'm not arguing it is bad that the aforementioned is (still) possible -- what I'm arguing is that it creates half the problems of perception here.

Edited by Svenc

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Guest El Payaso

 The Best examples for me in terms of ghosting through are how goals are scored inside and at the edge of the penalty area. This for me is the place where the ME is furthest away from real life and makes defenders' presence look quite non existent. 

I would also raise in term of tactics the how little the roles actually demand from the players. I've seen tens of examples of people playing players in roles that they shouldn't be able to fulfill with their attributes but there doesn't seem to be a problem with that. For example IRL roles like DLP, complete wingback and complete forward are super demanding and for example Arsenal have been punished several times for playing someone like Xhaka or Alex Sandro as playmakers and both of them were good players and up to the level that they were playing in but with too demanding roles for their abilities. The lack of pressing and problems with marking all aid to this in my experience. 

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I honestly think the target audience of this game is a little schizophrenic, which rubs off on the design. Football fans are a wide target, and it's getting wider. Getting a balance here is touchy.... all SI can do is try to do their thing, and as long as the game remains to sell, it sells. However, to me they have become some more cautious for sure, maybe due to prior experience (FM 2013, where a significant overhaul saw half the forums flooded with anger, rage and despair). Eventually, whenever the next major ME rewrite/update commences, there will more "broken ME" posts anyway, and a huge influx of bad myth. The same would happen with improved AI decision making, as the expectation is always "same game" -- what if improved AI decision making would make for a few additional comebacks itself? There was a great point brought up in another thread, in that the game fails to visualize the attacking/defending shape on the tactics screen. Maybe somebody with some more "common sense" would see how these would be limited use, except if you luck out due to limited AI or a temporary ME defensive hole (or you simply having skilled players who create some space all by themselves, even if they would end up sitting atop of each other)

1) Having two inside forwards mangling a top heavy formation, as they tend to cut inside the same space as the advanced central midfielder, naturally. (Can be made worse if the central midfielders in behind also push up)  IF------>AMC<------IF ... I mean what's logically going to happen here?
2) Generally pushing every single player up (PSG AI, duh)
3) Keeping things ultra compact when putting priority on trying to score / breaking a defense down (keeping things compact is a means of cautious in any team sports on this Planet Earth, Mork)

If all of that were in the game, maybe SI would also be more confident in kicking it into some "next gear". Because to me, the above is totally common sense, once you are able to visualize it anyway. In abscence of more visual cues, I've posted it somewhere that players should draw a circle around all their players advancing when the ball is in the opposition third. Generally, the smaller that circle is, the easier the defending team has it to mark / engage the players -- and vice versa. However, the larger it is, the more likely a move breaks down, naturally (which is a traditionally FM fallacy for many, as they find that you can dominate possession easily by keeping things super narrow and flooding the middle, well yes, but does it help to stretch a defense?). And so on. Ironically, some of this even translates well even to Fifa / Pes, hase for years, which also have some more detailed options than FM in the meantime. However, their match play is naturally purely one way action arcade back and forth. :)

Edited by Svenc

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I hope 2018 is harder than 2017, 2017 was the easiest Football Manager ever when you've worked out how to exploit the match engine with a certain combination of instructions and a flat 4-4-2.

In the last patch I won Vanarama North, Vanarama Premier, League Two, League One, Championship and Premiership in consecutive seasons often with players who were judged to be only good enough  for a couple of divisions below.

I was done with the game not long after I started playing it as winning the PL with not a single player above CA 125 is ridiculous. 

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6 hours ago, Svenc said:

Another thing that may get interesting is more realistic ball phyisic models, if they come to pass. Whilst it's always been argued that there is a benefit of not insisting on sweet and short passing on soggy pitches, and some of this is coded into the game -- it's never got to the piont that the ball would actually hugely come physically unstuck or something. Whilst such matches are rare (and in such conditions, typically post-poned prior to kick off), I still remember that Switzerland - Turkey Euro 2008 match where in the first half due to the heavyil soaked pitches, Switzerland had an edge, which faded in the second half as the rain had stopped and the ball didn't come stuck anymore.

 

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On 04/11/2017 at 12:23, KUBI said:

@Charlie_B

Did you try FM touch?

Yes, thank you for the suggestion. FM Touch is not a solution for me - I enjoy most parts of the wider game, especially youth development, training up players, press interaction, etc., just not the complexity of the tactical side. 

Anyway, I've decided the only way to see whether it's for me is to buy the game and give it another go. As Sedge11 suggests, I'll start simple and see how things pan out.

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Why can't an AI or an  Assistant CPU  Manager set the Tactics for you like some of the other aspects of the game? I don't don't understand that.

I do not want to do tactics or anything to do with on-field play, I just want to be General Manager or Director of Football and manage those functions.

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