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Neil Brock

Football Manager TV: Football Intelligence

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12 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Not in a position to go into much detail but as was stated in the matchday video there have been AI changes to the ME alongside the implementation of the new graphics engine. 

Nice to read this, cheers Brocky.

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6 hours ago, Minotti said:

I dont understand people saying that human users could easily manipulate the AI with the new "players will also be judged by form" in a transfer. You guys do know it happens for real too? One team buys a player that have a massive season and gets sold only to be a complete flop and sold to a worse team again. It only becomes a major weak point if the AI cant sell the said player at all or for a ridicilously small fee. Otherwise I welcome this.

 

The AI has far too many advantages in FM17 when it comes to "finding" the right players. If there is a colombian with a PA of 170, you can bet your ass that Real Madrid, Arsenal etc will have shortlisted him. Its so programmed that the big elites are first to find these 160-200 PA players.

 

Unsure if a player is the next big thing? Just look if real, barca, man city etc are after him. Or you can do another test. Put an offer of, say the player is worth 100k euro, 2million euro. If they accept, he is ****. If they demand over20meuro than you got yourself a superstar....

Paragraphs 2 & 3 are simply untrue & are based on misguided perception of belief in FM myths.

There is some truth in your first paragraph however it’s not universal, the best managers & recruitment teams will extensively scout players with a decision to sign being based on whether they believe the player will fit their system & that needs to be part of the variety in FM, good scouts & good scouting practice should mean something while also being rare to achieve by both AI & user due to the pressures place on them for instance success & in some cases a care free attitude to the availability of transfer funds.

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Clubs don't use instalments to comply with FFP. They use loan with obligation to buy to comply with FFP.

Also for FFP, when the payment made doesn't matter as the total fee is amortised over the length of the contract. For example, it doesn't matter Manutd paid 40 Million for Matic in one go or 3 instalments, For FFP the calculation is (total fee+wages)/contract length as annual cost of the player. 

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On day FM will reflect amoristation as this the more common method of balance sheet accounting at levels where FFP is a consideration.

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4 minutes ago, scholesvolley said:

Clubs don't use instalments to comply with FFP. They use loan with obligation to buy to comply with FFP.

 

Clubs do both is more accurate.


When it comes to the "signing players based on form" I do understand it happens IRL, the difference is that in-game I will avoid doing those kind of mistakes as I will only base my signings on how good the player stats is, which will give me a big advantage. 
Maybe if it affected scout reports as well, or even the actual numbers you see for the player.

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7 hours ago, MoxeysTheName said:

Not when it's for reasonably low prices, like I first said

Again entirely possible to beat the AI to players at very reasonable prices 

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A while back I proposed the idea of the visible attributes being affected by form so there is a direct correlation to coach/scout reports.

Hopefully the technical challenges of adopting such an approach can be overcome.

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30 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Again entirely possible to beat the AI to players at very reasonable prices 

Not when you have higher bids rejected a few days earlier. Not saying it happens for every deal but are certain instances, especially in the final days of the window. It's like when Cantona signed for Man Utd where they only found out he was available because Leeds had phoned them about possibly signing Dennis Irwin and Alex Ferguson happened to be in the room when Martin Edwards took the call. The AI has that extra bit of knowledge about every player which makes it a little unfair when they sign previously unavailable players for cheap prices

Edited by MoxeysTheName

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I'm hoping the repeat clauses can be applied to "Fee paid after league games"

For years it's annoyed me that predetermined transfers had fees after 20, 40, 60, & 80 apps (for example Calum Chambers), but we could only have the option for one fee for transfers arranged in game.

EDIT: Also, wasn't there supposed to be something about Board Interactions in this video? I don't remember any mention of it in the actual video, but it's in the description

Edited by gunner86

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So afraid to update the ME, doing absolutely everything possible around it without altering / freeing you in the main part of the game. I've refunded my purchase...

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1 hour ago, MoxeysTheName said:

Not when you have higher bids rejected a few days earlier. Not saying it happens for every deal but are certain instances, especially in the final days of the window. It's like when Cantona signed for Man Utd where they only found out he was available because Leeds had phoned them about possibly signing Dennis Irwin and Alex Ferguson happened to be in the room when Martin Edwards took the call. The AI has that extra bit of knowledge about every player which makes it a little unfair when they sign previously unavailable players for cheap prices

The AI doesnt haven't such knowledge. Not sure where this myth has come from 

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

The AI doesnt haven't such knowledge. Not sure where this myth has come from 

It comes from me having played the game and experienced this sort of situation, where the AI pluck world class signings out of thin air and for relatively cheap prices too

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That’s classic perception bias, I used to work on the transfer side of FM & can assure that no such behaviour exists.

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2 minutes ago, Barside said:

That’s classic perception bias, I used to work on the transfer side of FM & can assure that no such behaviour exists.

So how does it work then?

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I'm cautiously optimistic about this.  AI transfers has been a bugbear for me for a long time.  If that has truly been improved then that will almost certainly have me upgrade to this version.  I hope this intelligence has also been applied to Management and Backroom Staff approaches and appointments.

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AI transfer activity needed improving so this is a good step. Loaded my current save last night - Chelsea (AI) are 18th at Xmas, season 2, not a single striker in the squad - rotating between Pedro and Moses :D. I unsettled Costa in the first season summer window, signed him in first season Jan window and they never replaced him. Selling Batshuayi end of first season. They also sold Hazard to PSG. The only money they have spent is on wing backs Gaya and Rosales.

 

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1 hour ago, Matshit said:

Clubs do both is more accurate.

 

 

Structure of the payments is not considered for the FFP. It's just between the clubs. Cost of the player is considered for FFP. 

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51 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

AI transfer activity needed improving so this is a good step. Loaded my current save last night - Chelsea (AI) are 18th at Xmas, season 2, not a single striker in the squad - rotating between Pedro and Moses :D. I unsettled Costa in the first season summer window, signed him in first season Jan window and they never replaced him. Selling Batshuayi end of first season. They also sold Hazard to PSG. The only money they have spent is on wing backs Gaya and Rosales.

 

Man City, on the other hand, spend money left, right and centre. Playing as Liverpool, I sold them over £200m worth of players in one summer alone. In just under 4 season with Liverpool, I have raised 488m in player sales with more to come in add ons 

Edited by MoxeysTheName

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Don't know what to think about this one: the transfer amounts asked by lower clubs for youngsters or any other players in FM17 was quite ridiculous, now I'm guessing it will be even worse.

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10 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Happens in real life too... Yes but in real life the managers do not have full list of attributes from both their own players and the players that they've scouted and it's fairly simple for them to see how good the player is both compared to their aims and what they currently have. In real life it's much harder to be sure about this. 

And about flopping, yes players do flop in real life but in FM probably because of their CA they don't even see out if the player is a top or flop as they don't play them. 

The AI doesn't have any advantages in the transfer market. 

In the end it is mainly going to be us human users who benefit if the AI will start buying even more of 'decent' players to top level clubs and then selling them with peanuts. The AI needs to improve in the transfer market, not become even more exploitable. 

The point is though that even in real life managers make decisions on form. My biggest problem with the AI is that in fm15 it was so oviously scripted that the AI could spot these 170 - 200 PA players. Or how a complete **** team had a 170+ PA player that was worth 100k euro but wouldnt sell him for anything less than 40-70m euro. Thats how I always knew if a player was worthwhile.

 

In so many saves I have players who perform a lot better than another one who has higher PA. Yet, that player gets sold for a lot more than the in form one.

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3 hours ago, Barside said:

Paragraphs 2 & 3 are simply untrue & are based on misguided perception of belief in FM myths.

There is some truth in your first paragraph however it’s not universal, the best managers & recruitment teams will extensively scout players with a decision to sign being based on whether they believe the player will fit their system & that needs to be part of the variety in FM, good scouts & good scouting practice should mean something while also being rare to achieve by both AI & user due to the pressures place on them for instance success & in some cases a care free attitude to the availability of transfer funds.

I strongly disagree and while fm17 has less of it, fm16 was so easily scripted when it came to transfers. Usually in FM I play 3-4 different saves, one LLM, one about my fav team Parma and one where I use the in game editor. By using the in game editor I could easily spot the patterns of the AI. Which, honestly, you dont really need an in game editor to spot.

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1 hour ago, MoxeysTheName said:

So how does it work then?

They rely on scout reports etc. All the tools we have in-game to judge a player.

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34 minutes ago, pedrosantos said:

Don't know what to think about this one: the transfer amounts asked by lower clubs for youngsters or any other players in FM17 was quite ridiculous, now I'm guessing it will be even worse.

It was only ridiculous if you allowed it to be. Being quoted a high figure isn't the same as them "asking" for it. They didn't want to sell. Then it's a case of either moving to a more realistic target or unsettling the player, as per real life.

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18 minutes ago, Minotti said:

The point is though that even in real life managers make decisions on form. My biggest problem with the AI is that in fm15 it was so oviously scripted that the AI could spot these 170 - 200 PA players. Or how a complete **** team had a 170+ PA player that was worth 100k euro but wouldnt sell him for anything less than 40-70m euro. Thats how I always knew if a player was worthwhile.

 

In so many saves I have players who perform a lot better than another one who has higher PA. Yet, that player gets sold for a lot more than the in form one.

Clearly we can see star ratings and the AI can too, so a scout should rate better players better than weaker players. As star rating can be influenced by form, this can lead AI teams to buy players based on that. It happens in FM17 already.

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The staggering of clauses is such an obvious development that a more cynical person might wonder if it was held back previously in order to be a 'feature' in future.

I liked the sound of the improved relative assessments but couldn't spot any indication of it at play in the screens accompanying that part of the video - can anyone help me?

The improved transfer AI sounds promising, but I'm sure its been mentioned as improving before without fantastic end results - that said, any criticism is mitigated by the loony-ness of real life.

I like the idea of the visible display of player's attributes actually changing based on form, a bit like fog of war but rather than a range it just moves up and down based on form and hype - and only prolonged scouting by quality scouts can remedy. Can easily see why that's a non-starter though.

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9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

They rely on scout reports etc. All the tools we have in-game to judge a player.

What about the previously unavailable players bought for cheap amounts?

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Just now, MoxeysTheName said:

What about the previously unavailable players bought for cheap amounts?

You'll see in the scout report what a player will likely cost. And you've not mentioned anything about the situation changing for those players, so I have nothing much to add. A club doesn't want to sell today, but your offer interests him and he becomes unhappy at the club, so is suddenly available to purchase. Etc.

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5 minutes ago, Per Annum said:

The staggering of clauses is such an obvious development that a more cynical person might wonder if it was held back previously in order to be a 'feature' in future.

I have no idea why or how you would think this.

Remember, it's not just adding the possibility of staggered clauses. The AI needs to be able to use it in all situations and realistically so. It's not a 5 min job.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

You'll see in the scout report what a player will likely cost. And you've not mentioned anything about the situation changing for those players, so I have nothing much to add. A club doesn't want to sell today, but your offer interests him and he becomes unhappy at the club, so is suddenly available to purchase. Etc.

It's not a case of the player being unsettled when it happens so quickly.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

I have no idea why or how you would think this.

Remember, it's not just adding the possibility of staggered clauses. The AI needs to be able to use it in all situations and realistically so. It's not a 5 min job.

For avoidance of doubt, I didn't actually claim to have thought it! The AI does indeed need to be able to use it realistically, which it couldn't in 17 for the ones they had there, so keen to see if it can in 18 for either old or new ones.

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2 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

It's not a case of the player being unsettled when it happens so quickly.

You were talking about deadline day, so it's possible.

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1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

You were talking about deadline day, so it's possible.

It's still too short a time period to unsettle anybody. Also an awful lot of the moves I'm talking occur without the player being unhappy or unsettled at all

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15 minutes ago, Per Annum said:

The staggering of clauses is such an obvious development that a more cynical person might wonder if it was held back previously in order to be a 'feature' in future.

You would be incorrect in you cynicism, there were technical challenges along with the availability of time to get that feature into the game.

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1 minute ago, MoxeysTheName said:

It's still too short a time period to unsettle anybody. Also an awful lot of the moves I'm talking occur without the player being unhappy or unsettled at all

Whatever happened, it's not because of the AI "knowing" anything. It's easy to find deals if you look around. I'd argue it's still too easy.

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16 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Not in a position to go into much detail but as was stated in the matchday video there have been AI changes to the ME alongside the implementation of the new graphics engine. 

I hope we get players rounding GK to score and more chipped goals. Can't remember seeing much of either of these in FM17. Also rarely score from corners these days considering how easy it was a few years ago.

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9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Whatever happened, it's not because of the AI "knowing" anything. It's easy to find deals if you look around. I'd argue it's still too easy.

The AI seems to have a sixth sense though when it comes to player availability. I'm talking about first team squad members not previously listed for transfer, who are not unsettled or unhappy. I'm not talking about young teenagers here because it's easy enough to do a player search and look for certain attributes amongst players under the age of 18, particularly newgens. I'm talking about established players who move suddenly and cheaply, players who you would have bought if you had even a hint of their availability

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Just now, MoxeysTheName said:

The AI seems to have a sixth sense though when it comes to player availability. I'm talking about first team squad members not previously listed for transfer, who are not unsettled or unhappy. I'm not talking about young teenagers here because it's easy enough to do a player search and look for certain attributes amongst players under the age of 18, particularly newgens. I'm talking about established players who move suddenly and cheaply, players who you would have bought if you had even a hint of their availability

I find them easily because I scout and I'm told what they're going to cost, so I already know in advance who will be cheap and who won't be. I don't use player search at all.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

I find them easily because I scout and I'm told what they're going to cost, so I already know in advance who will be cheap and who won't be. I don't use player search at all.

But the amount they sell for is always below their value.

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17 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

But the amount they sell for is always below their value.

If this is such a big issue surely you can show us some examples?

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25 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

But the amount they sell for is always below their value.

Value is not transfer fee, so is irrelevant. There will be reasons, but as we have no specifics, I definitely don't have any ideas as to what's going on.

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2 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

Why?

Because it seems a bit pointless moaning about a supposed problem with the game without actually showing us the problem.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

Value is not transfer fee, so is irrelevant. There will be reasons, but as we have no specifics, I definitely don't have any ideas as to what's going on.

If you send a scout, they will tell you that a player is available for between this and that. It is the same for every player apart from maybe Messi and Ronaldo The transfers I'm talking about are the ones where the player is sold out of the blue for a fee closer to the lower amount

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17 hours ago, shirajzl said:

I see this "transfers based on performance" thing being massively exploited by human users. Get an average player with a good attribute distribution, make him outperform, sell for loads of cash to the AI who won't know how to use him properly.

It's unfair to judge like that, though, we'll see. I hope I'm wrong. 

 

12 hours ago, El Payaso said:

With two words: easy exploit. 

Also the AI could easily see that the player is not an upgrade by simply looking at the scout report. Don't have numbers on those cases but I would claim that in all of those cases PSG gave them a shot to show what they have got to give. On FM it's easier to see how good the player is and in case of De Marcos he did perform but because of his CA they didn't play him while he would have been good enough for the level. 

For me it's super bad news if the AI is even more prone to sign players that they will not be using no matter how well they perform or would perform if they were given a chance. Have to hope that this is not going to the case or that the ME will produce some wonders and actually makes it harder to make 'okayish' players perform magnificently. 

 

12 hours ago, Minotti said:

I dont understand people saying that human users could easily manipulate the AI with the new "players will also be judged by form" in a transfer. You guys do know it happens for real too? One team buys a player that have a massive season and gets sold only to be a complete flop and sold to a worse team again. It only becomes a major weak point if the AI cant sell the said player at all or for a ridicilously small fee. Otherwise I welcome this.

 

The AI has far too many advantages in FM17 when it comes to "finding" the right players. If there is a colombian with a PA of 170, you can bet your ass that Real Madrid, Arsenal etc will have shortlisted him. Its so programmed that the big elites are first to find these 160-200 PA players.

 

Unsure if a player is the next big thing? Just look if real, barca, man city etc are after him. Or you can do another test. Put an offer of, say the player is worth 100k euro, 2million euro. If they accept, he is ****. If they demand over20meuro than you got yourself a superstar....

One name for you all:

 

 

Renato Sanches

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49 minutes ago, 91427 said:

Because it seems a bit pointless moaning about a supposed problem with the game without actually showing us the problem.

I've described what is. Never said it was a massive problem, just that it is a bit annoying at times. You don't agree with me, then fine that's your prerogative. Just calling it as I see it and giving my opinion. Feel free to add yours, it is a forum after all

Edited by MoxeysTheName

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Guest El Payaso
2 hours ago, Minotti said:

The point is though that even in real life managers make decisions on form. My biggest problem with the AI is that in fm15 it was so oviously scripted that the AI could spot these 170 - 200 PA players. Or how a complete **** team had a 170+ PA player that was worth 100k euro but wouldnt sell him for anything less than 40-70m euro. Thats how I always knew if a player was worthwhile.

 

In so many saves I have players who perform a lot better than another one who has higher PA. Yet, that player gets sold for a lot more than the in form one.

And on FM they also do make decisions based on form: when signing a player while in terms of team selections it doesn't seem to matter as the CA is the important factor for the AI. It makes no sense to make the AI more prone to sign the type or quality of players that they are never going to be playing.

Victor Moses and Fabian Delph for example IRL were thought not to be the quality of Chelsea and City but they get selected based on their performances while this is not the case on FM and you often even see players falling out of grace for no reason. Nemanja Matic is good example of this on FM where Chelsea basically always abandoned him for no reason as he performed the first half of the season just to be replaced by someone with more pace.

The AI is always going to be playing or not playing their players based on CA and with this 'new feature' it's understandable that we are fearful that there will be more cases of great team signing a decent player that will never even get a chance to show their quality.

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Clearly we can see star ratings and the AI can too, so a scout should rate better players better than weaker players. As star rating can be influenced by form, this can lead AI teams to buy players based on that. It happens in FM17 already.

It has NEVER happened that a higher PA player gets sold less than a less PA player REGARDLESS of form. If you have a 19-23 years old with a PA of 160+ you can easily make BIG bucks with every little effort. If you have a 130 PA player...well good luck.

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14 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

And on FM they also do make decisions based on form: when signing a player while in terms of team selections it doesn't seem to matter as the CA is the important factor for the AI. It makes no sense to make the AI more prone to sign the type or quality of players that they are never going to be playing.

Victor Moses and Fabian Delph for example IRL were thought not to be the quality of Chelsea and City but they get selected based on their performances while this is not the case on FM and you often even see players falling out of grace for no reason. Nemanja Matic is good example of this on FM where Chelsea basically always abandoned him for no reason as he performed the first half of the season just to be replaced by someone with more pace.

The AI is always going to be playing or not playing their players based on CA and with this 'new feature' it's understandable that we are fearful that there will be more cases of great team signing a decent player that will never even get a chance to show their quality.

It doesnt seem to matter? Really? It matters exclusively! Here's a tip, buy Valon Ahmedi (despite his **** stats) and play him. Look him tear it up for some reason. Now, try to sell him for more than 20m euro... go ahead, Ill wait. Than buy Hirving Lozano and sell him after a season. Do this experiment for yourself (there are so many more...) and you'll see just how awfully scripted this is

 

As for the second paragraph. I strongly disagree that such things happen cause of in form. More to do with other things than that.

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Guest El Payaso
1 minute ago, Minotti said:

It doesnt seem to matter? Really? It matters exclusively! Here's a tip, buy Valon Ahmedi (despite his **** stats) and play him. Look him tear it up for some reason. Now, try to sell him for more than 20m euro... go ahead, Ill wait. Than buy Hirving Lozano and sell him after a season. Do this experiment for yourself (there are so many more...) and you'll see just how awfully scripted this is

 

As for the second paragraph. I strongly disagree that such things happen cause of in form. More to do with other things than that.

I don't know what you are talking about in the first paragraph. 

And on the second one: of course it's based on form and how well players perform there. If Moses wouldn't have, he wouldn't be at Chelsea anymore. Both Conte and Guardiola threw them in to the deep end and both have performed and that is why they are used even though their CA is not anywhere near as high as their star players'. 

http://www.goal.com/en/news/i-saw-victor-moses-talent-quickly-says-conte/13or9gls05o8q1kp12oy20hz57

This is Conte talking about Victor Moses. He wasn't given a chance in the team because of his high CA but because of his performances both in the training pitch and in games. 

Quote

“He showed us,” the City manager said. He showed us, he showed me, he showed his teammates a lot. It's not easy when, for a long period you don't play and, OK, a manager gives you an opportunity and play one position you never play before, in Champions League and here, so it means a lot, it means a lot for all of us and normally that happens when you are a good guy. Some guys, they only want to play in one position, 'in the other one I am not comfortable', so he's a guy who always tries to help. Last season we didn't play always with his voice in our locker room, so I am so satisfied, so happy for him. Especially for him.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/pep-guardiola-praises-manchester-city-fabian-delph-england-man-adapts-left-back-role-a7976781.html

And same with Guardiola on Delph. Performances are the key and if a player performs, he usually plays. And this is not the case on FM.

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18 minutes ago, Minotti said:

It has NEVER happened that a higher PA player gets sold less than a less PA player REGARDLESS of form. If you have a 19-23 years old with a PA of 160+ you can easily make BIG bucks with every little effort. If you have a 130 PA player...well good luck.

Really? You've looked at my games? Some months ago I sold a crap player for 4 times his value to a top tier team after he played well for my team due to me using his stats to a full extent. Of course he bombed at the club and I bought him back for a fraction of the value a couple of years later. Other higher rated players who are not playing well are not attracting any suitors, probably for that reason. Now, I don't use any in-game editors so I can't say anything regarding their PA for sure, but based on my staff and their PPA I'm pretty sure of this.

In FM17 it's way too easy to sell good players for a massive amount of cash, far more than they are worth. And buy them at low prices. It's also too easy to unsettle players you want. At my Liverpool career I bought Kylian Mbappe for Moussa Dembele (the Celtic one I bought for £8M after they started bidding for him) and only £13M. I sold an under preforming Divock Origi to PSG for £74M. Even Daniel Sturrige to a Chinese team for almost £50M. I got Dele Alli for £39M, Theo Hernandez for £20M and Donnarumma for £25M. For the record, I'm still only in 2018 at this point. This is why I'm hoping the transfers and AI are getting better. If you are somewhat successful it becomes too easy to dominate the game.

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