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Neil Brock

Football Manager TV: Football Intelligence

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Another in-depth video from FMTV looking at the upcoming Football Manager 2018. This time we'll be looking at Football Intelligence.

 

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Guest El Payaso

I just hope that the new instalment types don't mean that you are even more easily able to pull the AI from the ear in the transfer market and make £100M deals that you will pay in four years. Also worried about performances influencing even more on who the AI want to sign as this already has been a problem: getting a decent or good league player perform exceptionally well is fairly easy task for human users and there comes PSG with a big stack of money for a player that they do not need and will not be giving a chance to perform and you buy the player back one year later making tens of millions of profit. 

What I like though was the promise that the AI will fight better against us in the transfer market. Hoping that they will especially fight harder to keep their current important players and if you try to sign they will try to make the player happy to stay with new contracts. Also hoping that more players that are currently happy at their current club will opt to stay instead of looking to move, even if you try to sign him with a bigger club. 

Nothing much to say. Just have my fingers crossed so that the transfer market will actually be harder to master than it becoming even more exploitable for human users. 

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Looking good! AI improvements are something I've wanted for years now. As someone who usually play a long career I also hope this will make it better suited to how the clubs are going to treat you in the long run as well.

AI squad building have been a weakness for a while, so hopefully this will keep the challenge after most real players have retired!

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If top tier clubs now will go after that dominating top player in your second tier club I'm happy. I've always found it weird and unrealistic when AI-clubs just ignore a player that clearly would at least generate some interest in real life.

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Yes AI transfer activity and squad building has needed addressing its good it seems to have been upgraded

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1 minute ago, Viking said:

If top tier clubs now will go after that dominating top player in your second tier club I'm happy. I've always found it weird and unrealistic when AI-clubs just ignore a player that clearly would at least generate some interest in real life.

Had the same issue. Richairo Zivkovic scored a goal a game for me as Ajax for 5+ seasons yet I got literally no transfer offers for him the entire time

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Think I'll start using assistant on contract negotiations. All these clauses should be dealt with the finances department. However, the rest sounds promising. Better odds tracking through the season is a good addition. Should make media/board/fans interaction much more dynamic.  AI squad building has always been a weakness seems they dealt with it in an intelligent manner. let's hope it works as intended. In general, for me, the best announcment so far this year. but no ME video still?

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2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Think I'll start using assistant on contract negotiations. All these clauses should be dealt with the finances department. However, the rest sounds promising. Better odds tracking through the season is a good addition. Should make media/board/fans interaction much more dynamic.  AI squad building has always been a weakness seems they dealt with it in an intelligent manner. let's hope it works as intended. In general, for me, the best announcment so far this year. but no ME video still?

This is the last of the FM:TV series however there are plans for more videos prior to release.

Keep an eye on our Facebook, Twitter and YouTube channels for more details, however as always whatever goes live will appear on here too. 

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Good news on the transfer side of things, about time that instalment based clauses got an update & the idea of a more varied approach from AI managers in their player recruitment strategy based on needs & expectations sounds promising, fingers cross this is all linked to how the managers select their squads so that we don't see too many high value transfers not being selected.

Plenty to get stuck into when the demo comes out however the lack talk about the most important part of the game is a concern, my mind can't help recalling FM12 where there was no mention of the ME & iirc it took questions being asked in demo feedback thread before it was confirmed that ME updates were being held back for another year. I hope that's just my suspicious nature & FM18 does include significant ME code updates.

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10 minutes ago, Barside said:

Good news on the transfer side of things, about time that instalment based clauses got an update & the idea of a more varied approach from AI managers in their player recruitment strategy based on needs & expectations sounds promising, fingers cross this is all linked to how the managers select their squads so that we don't see too many high value transfers not being selected.

Plenty to get stuck into when the demo comes out however the lack talk about the most important part of the game is a concern, my mind can't help recalling FM12 where there was no mention of the ME & iirc it took questions being asked in demo feedback thread before it was confirmed that ME updates were being held back for another year. I hope that's just my suspicious nature & FM18 does include significant ME code updates.

i have a bad feeling about this as well. However, no significant update this season means they should really bring on something substantial for FM19. With updated AI squad building/Dynamics and a year of polishing, it should be very good. Don't really mind staying with FM16 after F17 lacked substantial changes to ME so it won't hurt to wait another year.

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18 minutes ago, Barside said:

fingers cross this is all linked to how the managers select their squads so that we don't see too many high value transfers not being selected

Hopefully the increased willingness of AI managers to relegate previously important players down to less important squad roles that's mentioned in the video will help with this

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I wasn't going to buy this years FM, main reason being i got incredibly frustrated with AI managers being unable to build squads in long term games and making stupid purchases. This video has convinced me to purchase FM18 as it looks like this problem has been fixed. 
Here's hoping i'm right!

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Some great new additions this year, but still no ME news, Im worried we're gonna be stuck with last years ME.

For me the ME is the most important part, I'd rather SI focus on ME related part than a new graphics engine. Has anyone heard any ME news on twitter etc.

Edited by Weller1980

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Wow still nothing about ME improvement but only some graphical changes...At least can you confirm that you have fixed wide marking while playing 4-4-2 or 4-1-4-1 which was game breaking last year?

Edited by Alekos

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5 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Some great new additions this year, but still no ME news, Im worried we're gonna be stuck with last years ME.

Not in a position to go into much detail but as was stated in the matchday video there have been AI changes to the ME alongside the implementation of the new graphics engine. 

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1 minute ago, Neil Brock said:

Not in a position to go into much detail but to as was stated in the matchday video there have been AI changes to the ME alongside the implementation of the new graphics engine. 

Great news! The ME is what what makes FM special.

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59 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I just hope that the new instalment types don't mean that you are even more easily able to pull the AI from the ear in the transfer market and make £100M deals that you will pay in four years. Also worried about performances influencing even more on who the AI want to sign as this already has been a problem: getting a decent or good league player perform exceptionally well is fairly easy task for human users and there comes PSG with a big stack of money for a player that they do not need and will not be giving a chance to perform and you buy the player back one year later making tens of millions of profit.


Hopefully this is based on long-term performance. To me, all you need to do to outperform AI is looking at your scout/assistants ratings of a player.  Sort out the lesser rated ones, bring in higher rated ones.... that's it for the most part. No much messing about with ratings (every guy can have an above average season, really, no least because the amount of goals can fluctuate, ditto the league position/win percentages of sides), or much.  I hugely admire what SI are trying to do in terms of AI. They're creating a football world where the simulated managers have traits, and may behave like (flawed) humans. Depending on the club/manager, they will also hugely splash the cash on overpaid primadonas, rather than maxing their bang for the bug. That's all fascinating in and on itself. However, the irony in this is, that each "human" factor introduced here has to power to hugely shift the bias towards a human manager entering into that simulated game world, as all he may need to do was following rather simplistic min/max rules. Agree that the talk about generally more intelligent AI stuff sounds encouraging though.

Seems the post-match reports remain purely based on the volumes of shots, rather than their quality. (Wimbledon less shots --> fortunate win). That wouldn't be as much of an issue if players wouldn't take it as something "objectively truth" which would tend to confirm their own perceptions. On FM though that's typically the case. It's also hugely simplistic, and hopefully, the ME coders are aware of it long-term. :)

Edited by Svenc

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I see this "transfers based on performance" thing being massively exploited by human users. Get an average player with a good attribute distribution, make him outperform, sell for loads of cash to the AI who won't know how to use him properly.

It's unfair to judge like that, though, we'll see. I hope I'm wrong. 

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So that's the last video, don't understand why they're not shouting about the news graphics engine, surely that would be worth a video?

We only had a few seconds of the ME as well which is odd?

Well, early access should start soon, all will be revealed then.

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Guest El Payaso
41 minutes ago, Barside said:

Plenty to get stuck into when the demo comes out however the lack talk about the most important part of the game is a concern, my mind can't help recalling FM12 where there was no mention of the ME & iirc it took questions being asked in demo feedback thread before it was confirmed that ME updates were being held back for another year. I hope that's just my suspicious nature & FM18 does include significant ME code updates.

I think that they mentioned that there will be video(s) about the ME in that matchday video. Would have been seriously odd decision not to renew the ME as I think that this year many of the more experienced community members 'went to the barricades' because of the major flaws that the Me had on FM 2017. And I think that if you play it quite a bit more and actually think a bit of things that keep repeating over and over again and compare the ME even a tiny bit to real football / or demand things to be sensible and happening for a reason, then the FM 2017 ME will most definitely be a no no for you. I just hope that the people on SI have also acknowledged the major flaws and actually there will be noticeable changes to the ME that we will even see by watching extended or key highlights. 

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Guest El Payaso
7 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

I see this "transfers based on performance" thing being massively exploited by human users. Get an average player with a good attribute distribution, make him outperform, sell for loads of cash to the AI who won't know how to use him properly.

It's unfair to judge like that, though, we'll see. I hope I'm wrong. 

I think the same. I think it was on FM 2016 when I always had Oscar De Marcos performing as one of the best RBs in the La Liga with him being 'a good La Liga player' and after the first season PSG always came for him with more than £20M.  And he did perform for them, on those 4-5 occasions that they actually played him and after that season with 4-5 games you could sign him back for about £5M. Also it surely doesn't take much to make a decent or a good league player to have even spectacular season. 

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19 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

So that's the last video, don't understand why they're not shouting about the news graphics engine, surely that would be worth a video?

We only had a few seconds of the ME as well which is odd?

Well, early access should start soon, all will be revealed then.

They've already done a video on the new graphics engine.

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The major issue with FM 17 ME was the wingers/wide mid staying too wide and also opting for narrow formations with strikerless were OP

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3 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

They've already done a video on the new graphics engine.

The graphics engine and match engine are not the same thing

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Hoping that the AI managers will do smart transfers.. 

 

*The FM beta is 100% on 27th? or maybe it will be released before?

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7 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

Hoping that the AI managers will do smart transfers.. 

 

*The FM beta is 100% on 27th? or maybe it will be released before?

 

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Improved AI transfers looks promising but has the wide players defensive positioning been fixed? 

Edited by pats
Grammer

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3 minutes ago, pats said:

Improve AI transfers looks promising but has the wide players defensive positioning been fixed? 

From what I can tell in the few seconds of match footage we've seen it seems a good bit better

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Gotta be honest, a bit disappointed with the video. 

Football inteligente was the video I was most curious about, and although it's nice to ear that improvements were made in the way AI teams and managers aprouch transfer market and development their teams, all the information was too vague. 

This is, imo, a core area of the game and pretty much the difference between being able to play competitive long term saves or not. 

On top of that, these improvements that are vaguely mention in the video are very hard to notice in the demo, because only after a couple of years it's possible the see if AI teams can build competitive teams. 

Anyway, really hopping that these improvements take long terms saves to a better level. 

Edited by Keyzer Soze

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1 hour ago, shirajzl said:

I see this "transfers based on performance" thing being massively exploited by human users. Get an average player with a good attribute distribution, make him outperform, sell for loads of cash to the AI who won't know how to use him properly.

It's unfair to judge like that, though, we'll see. I hope I'm wrong. 

I’d like to think that better AI managers will still understand the adige that form is temporary while class is permanent, might be a behaviour that gets some fine tuning during after wider exposure during the pre-release beta.

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Hope this gets rid of the current advantage the AI has in the transfer market when it comes to knowing when players are up for sale and when they're available on the cheap

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1 hour ago, 91427 said:

The graphics engine and match engine are not the same thing

I know. However, if you looked at who I quoted, they asked about the graphics engine.

Quote

So that's the last video, don't understand why they're not shouting about the news graphics engine, surely that would be worth a video?

So I posted the video about the graphics engine.

It might be worth reading the post you're about to quote if you're going to try to correct someone.

Edited by JordanMillward_1

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2 hours ago, shirajzl said:

I see this "transfers based on performance" thing being massively exploited by human users. Get an average player with a good attribute distribution, make him outperform, sell for loads of cash to the AI who won't know how to use him properly.

It's unfair to judge like that, though, we'll see. I hope I'm wrong. 

My exact thoughts

 

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3 hours ago, El Payaso said:

I just hope that the new instalment types don't mean that you are even more easily able to pull the AI from the ear in the transfer market and make £100M deals that you will pay in four years. Also worried about performances influencing even more on who the AI want to sign as this already has been a problem: getting a decent or good league player perform exceptionally well is fairly easy task for human users and there comes PSG with a big stack of money for a player that they do not need and will not be giving a chance to perform and you buy the player back one year later making tens of millions of profit. 

What I like though was the promise that the AI will fight better against us in the transfer market. Hoping that they will especially fight harder to keep their current important players and if you try to sign they will try to make the player happy to stay with new contracts. Also hoping that more players that are currently happy at their current club will opt to stay instead of looking to move, even if you try to sign him with a bigger club. 

Nothing much to say. Just have my fingers crossed so that the transfer market will actually be harder to master than it becoming even more exploitable for human users. 

I don't understand your frustration.. PSG does that irl as well  krychowiak, Jese, Cabaye, Luiz & Aurier.

 

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1 hour ago, MoxeysTheName said:

Hope this gets rid of the current advantage the AI has in the transfer market when it comes to knowing when players are up for sale and when they're available on the cheap

No such advantage exists, in fact as it stands (until we see FM18) the transfer market is massively stacked in the user's favour.

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One of those *I'll believe it when I see it* ones, I suppose. Biggest problem with AI managers IMO is their inability to get players fit for matchday, to rotate, to be truly flexible in formations (depending on the manager IRL, some of course never change) and to understand the value in developing youth (not automatically loaning out anyone at a certain age in a certain CA range, for example).

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23 minutes ago, Barside said:

No such advantage exists, in fact as it stands (until we see FM18) the transfer market is massively stacked in the user's favour.

I find that often the AI are able to sign players before you know that they are actually available, usually for quite reasonable fees. I'm talking about players who weren't previously on the transfer list

Edited by MoxeysTheName

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17 minutes ago, MoxeysTheName said:

I find that often the AI are able to sign players before you know that they are actually available, usually for quite reasonable fees. I'm talking about players who weren't previously on the transfer list

That's just good scouting. If you're waiting for a player to be on the transfer list, you've lost have the battle. 

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Guest El Payaso
3 hours ago, aat91 said:

I don't understand your frustration.. PSG does that irl as well  krychowiak, Jese, Cabaye, Luiz & Aurier.

 

With two words: easy exploit. 

Also the AI could easily see that the player is not an upgrade by simply looking at the scout report. Don't have numbers on those cases but I would claim that in all of those cases PSG gave them a shot to show what they have got to give. On FM it's easier to see how good the player is and in case of De Marcos he did perform but because of his CA they didn't play him while he would have been good enough for the level. 

For me it's super bad news if the AI is even more prone to sign players that they will not be using no matter how well they perform or would perform if they were given a chance. Have to hope that this is not going to the case or that the ME will produce some wonders and actually makes it harder to make 'okayish' players perform magnificently. 

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I hope there are real improvements in whatever is mentioned in the video, This part of the game needs to match the complexity of other areas and realism.

 

AI squad building, Board behaviour,Transfer policy and realistic negotiations are an important part of the game that could improve immersion and longevity.

Edited by qwerty22

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I dont understand people saying that human users could easily manipulate the AI with the new "players will also be judged by form" in a transfer. You guys do know it happens for real too? One team buys a player that have a massive season and gets sold only to be a complete flop and sold to a worse team again. It only becomes a major weak point if the AI cant sell the said player at all or for a ridicilously small fee. Otherwise I welcome this.

 

The AI has far too many advantages in FM17 when it comes to "finding" the right players. If there is a colombian with a PA of 170, you can bet your ass that Real Madrid, Arsenal etc will have shortlisted him. Its so programmed that the big elites are first to find these 160-200 PA players.

 

Unsure if a player is the next big thing? Just look if real, barca, man city etc are after him. Or you can do another test. Put an offer of, say the player is worth 100k euro, 2million euro. If they accept, he is ****. If they demand over20meuro than you got yourself a superstar....

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

That's just good scouting. If you're waiting for a player to be on the transfer list, you've lost have the battle. 

Not when it's for reasonably low prices, like I first said

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Guest El Payaso
21 minutes ago, Minotti said:

I dont understand people saying that human users could easily manipulate the AI with the new "players will also be judged by form" in a transfer. You guys do know it happens for real too? One team buys a player that have a massive season and gets sold only to be a complete flop and sold to a worse team again. It only becomes a major weak point if the AI cant sell the said player at all or for a ridicilously small fee. Otherwise I welcome this.

The AI has far too many advantages in FM17 when it comes to "finding" the right players. If there is a colombian with a PA of 170, you can bet your ass that Real Madrid, Arsenal etc will have shortlisted him. Its so programmed that the big elites are first to find these 160-200 PA players.

Happens in real life too... Yes but in real life the managers do not have full list of attributes from both their own players and the players that they've scouted and it's fairly simple for them to see how good the player is both compared to their aims and what they currently have. In real life it's much harder to be sure about this. 

And about flopping, yes players do flop in real life but in FM probably because of their CA they don't even see out if the player is a top or flop as they don't play them. 

The AI doesn't have any advantages in the transfer market. 

In the end it is mainly going to be us human users who benefit if the AI will start buying even more of 'decent' players to top level clubs and then selling them with peanuts. The AI needs to improve in the transfer market, not become even more exploitable. 

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8 hours ago, Barside said:

Plenty to get stuck into when the demo comes out however the lack talk about the most important part of the game is a concern, my mind can't help recalling FM12 where there was no mention of the ME & iirc it took questions being asked in demo feedback thread before it was confirmed that ME updates were being held back for another year. I hope that's just my suspicious nature & FM18 does include significant ME code updates.


That was a requirement though from memory, plus similar is happening in other modules every year. Going by history, each ME cycle reaches the "end of its rope", so to speak, with significant rewrites perhaps taking more than just that annually release. At that point, by communication it wasn't even sure if the rewrites would make it on time as of FM 2013, despite that "gap year". AFAIR it was even publicly announced that it was a comparably late decision to include the rewrites into 2013 already. As big paradigm shifts oft demand some more tuning and luvin' and patches (FM 2013 was no different), that was twisted into the "SI use players as beta testers" casseroles of hyperbole by the usual suspects. No wonder they've become more quiet since. If history is anything to go by, they'll do this again on a lower profile this time around -- and long-term, the game hopefully benefitting of it in the same ways that's happened after the last big rewrites, which included not merely different physics models, and fully 90 minutes matches, but also the now infamous "collision detection", which is more of a "collision avoidance" making players run around each other rather than there being actually body contacts, as players still aren't a physical presence as such. Which may be one of the core limitations this engine iteration has, as it is hard to imagine it wouldn't impact on how teams defend on this.

 

2 hours ago, Minotti said:

The AI has far too many advantages in FM17 when it comes to "finding" the right players. If there is a colombian with a PA of 170, you can bet your ass that Real Madrid, Arsenal etc will have shortlisted him. Its so programmed that the big elites are first to find these 160-200 PA players.

They could code AI that way actually. They could even code it so that every AI manager knows about the top rated newgen players as soon as they enter the game world. It doesn't work like that though and it never will fo ras long the Collyers have a say in this, and for that I am infintely grateful, whilst being somewhat annoyed on the occasion at the same time. The former approach isn't only ridiculously easier to code, as that simply isn't "realistic" or simulated behavior, but simply an AI cheat. However, it would also easily result in a much harder market out of the bat. The moment I ever see an AI manager arriving at a top division with a somewhat competitive team, paying a fraction of the wage budget of the league average, etc. will be the moment when the game has succeeded in creating a fully-on competitive AI manager. For all the admiring, on average AI pays plenty more for lesser players. However, as genre history shows, next to coding a reactive andn believably match simulation it's traditionally easily the biggest challenge there is. Which is why on budget / mobile / free to play releases, they pretty much simplify here accross the boards. Letting a DOF do the transfers will always be a requirement I reckon for a level playing field, as the DOF is basically an AI itself.

Edited by Svenc

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this “Football Intelligence” is not the AI that i expected.

what i hoping for is ME's AI.

more tactical Intelligence from AI.

 

 

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