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How many of you still use 2D Classic?

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39 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

If the dots were a bit bigger on the 2D engine, it would be more usable. 

Yeah as said previous the beta still is a work in progress and there is scope for potential changes, including the one you've mentioned. Thanks. 

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Really i don't understand why they let the standard 2d camera out and instead they give us this crappy 2d engine... dots are small i cannot agree more with @Dagenham_Dave, it has this simplistic classic 2d view in which you cannot understand how the players move, how the dots are using the ball etc.,  colours are bad as well as the flashing ads (though they can be fixed by the full release) and generally i don't understand why they keep on pushing players in the 3d view.It's not an excuse that more people use 3d engine than those who use 2d. It's like saying that we that use 2d engine have no rights to play the game.Football manager is a tactics game, not a Fifa or a Pro evolution in which everything is about the 'image'. Personally (and i think that many will agree), i believe that with the 2d  engine one can completeley understand the players movements both individually and as a whole,  the team's cohesion and the implementation of tactics to a better degree than the 3d. And to say the truth, not all of us can use the 3d engine because due to our pc specs, it is slow, the frame drops and you cannot enjoy it!!!You have to lower the graphics for it to work and then you cannot distinguish the players!!! It's my viewpoint, but i believe that it is disrespectful to all of us that have learned to live with the 2d engine and we are paying money for this game from its first days!!! 
I hope they fix/upgrade/change completely this 2d camera (if one can call it that way) they introduced us in beta. 

 

I agree !!!!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Always 2D classic

Edited by vamcj

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I guess I'm part of the minority that exclusively use 2D Classic.  For me a bad 2D version is a deal breaker as I find the 3D mode kills the immersive aspect of CM/FM that I've enjoyed since 1996.  

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16 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

There's probably not going to be any 2D camera view in a few editions time. It's quite clear they're phasing this out. I think they've massively underestimated the user base who prefer this. I don't believe for one second it's less than 10%. 

Aye I'll never be in for 3D while its still at the level it is. Not knocking SI for giving it the best they can, 3D wise, considering budget etc, but it throws me completely out of the game as I find it sub-par.

 

Essentially in 3-5 years it'll be spend £700 minimum on a PC/laptop or don't bother with the series. Their choice, their game.

 

This is coming from someone who has no real fault with the game bar the already tedious 3D match intros. Even when I skip them, I still get the laggy dressing room nonsense during team talks etc. I'd prefer zero 3D in the saves I play but it is what it is.

Edited by harrycarrie

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Yeah, I'd have no problem with switching to the 3D view if I thought it was worth it. But when I see things like the two managers shaking hands before the game with a clear foot of space between their actual hands, I take it as a representative sign that it's just not there yet.

It looks a lot better than it did originally, but it's been in the game for what, 8 years now? It doesn't look 8 years better.

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As far as I can see, the 2D Classic from FM17 has gone and what was called '2D' on FM17 is now called 2D Classic on FM18 and the original 2D has gone. Does anyone else agree?

I don't understand how people are saying that 2D classic is still in the game. The option is but it's completely different to how it looked last year.

Bit gutted they've taken it out, I'm like many others in that I watched 2D with 3D replays on. It's a shame they feel the need to force everyone onto the 3D when there seems to be a solid following of people that still play 2D.

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Whilst I have not used 2D for matches since FM07 I do use the old 2D classic for post match analysis, so I will be disapointed if it's gone

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3 hours ago, KUBI said:

 

Another massive two fingers up to loyal fans from Miles and SI this year.

I'm not insinuating that the research carried out by SI is wrong, but I would like to know what sort of research was done and how it was conducted.

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7 minutes ago, McClane29 said:

Another massive two fingers up to loyal fans from Miles and SI this year.

I'm not insinuating that the research carried out by SI is wrong, but I would like to know what sort of research was done and how it was conducted.

As we've made clear already in this thread we had to remove the 'old' 2D in order to improve both 3D and the way in which the entire match engine works - that includes AI, contact points and logic. It wasn't an easy decision but for the sake of progress had to be done. We've tried to make the remaining 2D classic look as close to the old one as we can and are still working to make this better.

I'm not in a position to reveal how our research is taken, you'd be better off asking Miles but I'm not sure he can say either, but I do know it's accurate and as said before this forum is not a fair representation of the 'average' FM user. 

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Agree with all of you.

Quite sure that at least half of that "90%" are young players who know FM especially in the "3D version" or people who take it just for a few hours. I don't think is respectful (even if we are "a tiny 10%") the lack of news about the old 2D removal during the promo... we had to discover it with the beta.
Definitely not a good move, especially for those who kept playing this way for years and years.

Praying for last minute fixes.

 

 

Edited by LolloViola

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It's not just the the 2d view, they've removed the only two camera's that were at all useful/usable (Elevated and main Stand).

I really hope that they put these back in the game for full release. Or at least make the Data Analysis angle a little more customisable.

It's so poor that I will probably end up going back to 2D.

I've played the game since the Amiga days and this is the first time that something added or in this case removed has seriously dampened my excitement for the game.

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39 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

As we've made clear already in this thread we had to remove the 'old' 2D in order to improve both 3D and the way in which the entire match engine works - that includes AI, contact points and logic. It wasn't an easy decision but for the sake of progress had to be done. We've tried to make the remaining 2D classic look as close to the old one as we can and are still working to make this better.

I'm not in a position to reveal how our research is taken, you'd be better off asking Miles but I'm not sure he can say either, but I do know it's accurate and as said before this forum is not a fair representation of the 'average' FM user. 

Fair enough, Neil. I accept the reasoning behind removing the old one. Look forward to see the development and improvement of the new/current 2D view then for the full game.

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4 minutes ago, rdan said:

Looks to me as though this number has been exaggerated in order to push 3D.

How many did post in this thread, 50? 100? It's like social media, some minorities are overestimate themselves, because the majority does not rise their voice.

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I'm sorry, but you're my opinion! I think there's actually a major competitor missing from Football Manager. When you're alone in the market, sovereign, you open the space for disregard for the fan.I play the FM, as long as he I was still Championship Manager 01/02. And to me nothing was asked, I did not participate in 2D / 3D research and I think the search was not done correctly. If you really want to know the% of players using 2D, include the search within the game itself, causing users to report it to you. Anyway, I'm sad that all these years of gameplay have come to an end! I love this series, I paid every penny in all previous editions, but I just can not adapt to 3D, and SI does not play games for the player profile anymore.

Edited by vamcj

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Just now, rdan said:

Again I would have to ask how it was conducted and the size, without that I don't know if its accurate or not.

You need to ask Miles.

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The game collects data about the way you play by default (although this can be changed in preferences). That's called telemetrics. I understand they are basing their decision on that data.

 

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1 hour ago, KUBI said:

You need to ask Miles.

1 hour ago, KUBI said:

How many did post in this thread, 50? 100? It's like social media, some minorities are overestimate themselves, because the majority does not rise their voice.

Such a rude way to answer.

I think that people who express their opinion here should be taken a little bit more in consideration, even if we are "only" 50, otherwise just close everything and don't give us the possibility to give feedbacks, if we only "overestimate ourselves".

2 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

 

Now, I have a reasonable PC and fully understand  that SI needed to move on (and, no offence, but those usin xp should as well) for all the reasons stated. However, not so long time ago there was a cry out for better graphics, more and better 3d... at that point (maybe a year or two ago?) the main counter-argument from mods and SI was that internal research had shown that a big portion of FM players still use windows xp  thus SI won't go through it. 

What really bugs me here isn't the idea to switch and move forward, but the way it was done. without a mention, without respect,  towards these people who, judging by the number of complaints on the forum, still use 2d. as a side note, I know forums aren't representative, but that was exactly the argument used when people on the forum were in disbelief that so many players still use xp.

Exactly. Forums maybe are not representative, but surely you can find more loyal and longterm FMaddicted on communities, especially on this one (and maybe you should have announced it here), than judging by the data sent by all the casual players that you can find on steam, the "so-called majority". People that, maybe, discovered FM last year or children that use PSG to pump up finances for their 10 minutes game.

Edited by LolloViola

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4 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

I'm not in a position to reveal how our research is taken, you'd be better off asking Miles but I'm not sure he can say either, but I do know it's accurate and as said before this forum is not a fair representation of the 'average' FM user. 

To clarify - the "research" is live data from the game. As per the EULA, we anonymously collect data to help us with the games development. This can be turned off in preferences. So it's accurate based on data from over 1m people who played FM17 and didn't turn off the data collection in preferences.

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10 minutes ago, Miles Jacobson said:

To clarify - the "research" is live data from the game. As per the EULA, we anonymously collect data to help us with the games development. This can be turned off in preferences. So it's accurate based on data from over 1m people who played FM17 and didn't turn off the data collection in preferences.

moving on to the new engine is welcome and all that... but the way 2d was silently taken out is a bit lame. obviously, SI would be damned either way, I'd just prefer they were more straightforward with the fan base. could be a part of loyalty scheme... we will give you 15% discount if you preorder but you have to sign this "no more 2d" clause in a contract extension... :D 

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I'm not against the removing of the 2D, but the way it was done. things could be handled differently. probably a heads up or something.

As for the way collect your information... probably take cover, **** storm approaching.

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4 minutes ago, grade said:

I'm not against the removing of the 2D, but the way it was done. things could be handled differently. probably a heads up or something.

As for the way collect your information... probably take cover, **** storm approaching.

It's about you what information you deliver. If people don't read the EULA, they agree. You would be surprised what you give away to Facebook and others, if you really care.

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I know it's not the only thing that's **** about 2D this year but you can get rid of the ridiculously irritating flashing ads by going to preferences > more match settings then setting render quality to medium or lower

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Playing on 2D but seeing replays on 3D. 

I like the sinergy between 2D and 3D. Just hope you guys of SI don't drop 2D in the future.

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2D all the way, then I watch replays in 3D.

Not a huge fan of the 2D view in the beta to be honest, prefer the old 2D classic from prior versions. I think a lot of old school, core FM fans prefer the 2D (not all, but I would hazard a guess that the majority of players who use 2D are dedicated FM players for many years). If they downgrade or adjust the 2D view it might not necessarily annoy too many people, but the kind of people involved here on the forums are the ones likely to be affected. 

Personally I think they've improved the 3d engine no end over the years, but I still don't find it visually appealing to use for match highlights

Edited by bowieinspace

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The 2D Classic may be out, but I can't SI ever see getting rid of 2d entirelly. They are associated some with STATS, formerly Prozone. 2D, whilst not being used purely, is plenty sexy in the world of analyzing football matches, precisely due to its levels of clarity / abstraction. When assessing primarily tactically/positionally things, nobody needs to know/see whether Harry Kane finished a pretty neat move with his inside or outside of the foot -- or whether Troy Deeney had shis shirt tucked into the trowsers whilst drifting into the channels to make himself available for a pass. If they'd get rid of it, it would be also fairly unrealistic, as, see above.

Sure, according to research, 99.99% of players also play the game in exclusively unrealistic ways -- heck, outside of Ole Gunnar Solskjær nobody would even get the jobs they apply for here in the first place. But the entire idea of a 2d view/sim was big time inspired by professional analysis tools. CM/FM may have been amongst the first, but curiously, Fifa/Total Club Manager did all that in the reverse. First going with their modified Fifa Engine, then on some iteration adding an optionally 2D analysis tool on top. Surely if Fifa can, no way a sim would let go entirelly. :D

Edited by Svenc

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I don't think there are any plans to get rid of 2D entirely (if there are I'm not privy to them and wouldn't be happy to hear even though I mainly use 3D these days) likewise we still support commentary only (yes we're aware there are issues with this currently too). 2D Classic is still in the game and with the feedback which has been provided we're hoping to improve it. 

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13 hours ago, jozza800 said:

It's not just the the 2d view, they've removed the only two camera's that were at all useful/usable (Elevated and main Stand).

I really hope that they put these back in the game for full release. Or at least make the Data Analysis angle a little more customisable.

It's so poor that I will probably end up going back to 2D.

I've played the game since the Amiga days and this is the first time that something added or in this case removed has seriously dampened my excitement for the game.

You can now select a camera then alter the zoom and height levels via the match settings in game. You should be able to get a setup that is extremely similar to both Elevated and Main Stand with a tiny bit of tweaking. 

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How do you switch to 2D? I can`t see a tick box that say`s view matches in 3D anywhere it is just set to 3D? I have mine set to commentary only and fast (with fast highlights-key) but is extremely slow.

Edit - I have found it now. I don`t like 3D myself and only use it for cup finals.

I also don`t like the 3D intro and outro to the game it just slows things down and is completely pointless if you are using 2D, this needs to be sorted for the full game.

I really hope they don`t push 3D too much surely they must realise that not everyone can afford a £800+ computer/laptop that you would need to run this game properly. My laptop cost £500 and is fairly powerful but it still struggles!

Edited by IRONTUSK

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3 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

I don't think there are any plans to get rid of 2D entirely (if there are I'm not privy to them and wouldn't be happy to hear even though I mainly use 3D these days) likewise we still support commentary only (yes we're aware there are issues with this currently too). 2D Classic is still in the game and with the feedback which has been provided we're hoping to improve it. 

I have a feedback, how about if we use 2D classic camera it will be completely 2D so no 3D stadium during half time, pre and post match.

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Thank you, Neil. An excellent and detailed post. I, and many others, appreciate it.

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58 minutes ago, Neil Dejyothin said:

Hello all,

Let me give you some background on this, so you can better understand where we’re coming from.

Firstly we love the 2D Classic based view. It’s here to stay and isn’t going anywhere. We’ve no plans to remove it, however the original 2D Classic “Software Rendering” implementation was extremely old and inefficient and was expensive from both a memory and performance perspective, and we were effectively supporting two engines for many years while we kept it alive.

The “Software Rendering” implementation makes use of the CPU only and doesn’t harness any power from the GPU. This means that there’s 100% throughout going through the CPU and it actually causes FM to process slower in a lot of hardware cases, as everything gets queued up on the CPU and is CPU bound.

The majority of modern day hardware and software over the last 10 years has shifted to fully multi-threaded environments, with many of today’s applications making use of both the CPU and GPU to share the load. This is a direction that we’re heading more and more towards and will allow us to reap benefits in the long run.

Doing this allows us to spread performance across both CPU and GPU and push graphics based intensive tasks where they natively should be on the GPU. This doesn’t just affect 2d Classic as a mode, it also affects the entire user interface, which we can share tasks on the GPU.

It’s important that we free up the CPU to allow us to further development in other areas of FM and we’re keen to take advantage of that as time passes.

It’s never easy to drop support for something but we’ve been one of the best in the business at backwards support. There are very few other games or software out there that would have kept Software Rendering around and supported two engine’s in this respect for as long as we have.

But, from the data that we’ve looked at over the last years, we know the capabilities of the hardware our users have, and the majority of that hardware will be able to benefit from the future direction we want to take.

We appreciate there are niggles and differences of opinion of the current 2d Classic view in FM 2018 Beta. We’ve tried to make a hybrid that mixes the best elements of the original and add some flavour from having everything unified under one system.

Plenty of you have raised some good feedback and issues here as well, and we’re listening to that and making some adjustments where necessary. We may not be able to please every single one of you, but there will be improvements made in time for release.

We have already made refinements to the lighting of the pitches, fixed an issue where the 2d classic ball spins on the spot when it shouldn’t, as well as added the ability to zoom in and out a little, which will help you adjust the amount of pitch you can see.

Hope that helps.

Very fair response and explanation.

I don't think this is an overly complex issue to solve though. Get rid of the stadium view on the new 2d and make the dots bigger (and the ball more visible).

I think the only issue people have is when you take something away and replace it with something that's worse than before.  Don't take this the wrong way, but it looks and feels like the "new" 2d was rushed and an afterthought.

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Neil thanks for the answer. Try not to abandon the 2d. Miles is full or irony and talks eevery time about the percentage of people trying 3d.
1) Until he shows legitimate results i believe nothing. 
2) When talking about what many people do,it is like neglecting the other part of your customers, it's like they don't exist, people who play 2d from the beggining and 
have supported the company throughout all those years. 

If an improvement is to be made, i think that you could make the dots larger (as they were in 2016 and back) or via an option to do so, 
so that could be easier for us to understand  how the ball is moving throughout the pitch. 

Again, Neil thank you for your answer, it was honest and helpful, but as i said before, just retain and polish the 2d engine and please DO NOT LET IT DOWN!!
By doing so, the company will never lose its customers (because the reason is very serious when we talk about the match engine and the 2d-3d 'debate' ) 

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1 hour ago, Neil Dejyothin said:

Hello all,

Let me give you some background on this, so you can better understand where we’re coming from.

 

Thank you very much neil to clear things up

Hope info like this should be given before the beta in next FM

 

cheers

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1 hour ago, Neil Dejyothin said:

Hello all,

Let me give you some background on this, so you can better understand where we’re coming from.

Firstly we love the 2D Classic based view. It’s here to stay and isn’t going anywhere. We’ve no plans to remove it, however the original 2D Classic “Software Rendering” implementation was extremely old and inefficient and was expensive from both a memory and performance perspective, and we were effectively supporting two engines for many years while we kept it alive.

The “Software Rendering” implementation makes use of the CPU only and doesn’t harness any power from the GPU. This means that there’s 100% throughout going through the CPU and it actually causes FM to process slower in a lot of hardware cases, as everything gets queued up on the CPU and is CPU bound.

The majority of modern day hardware and software over the last 10 years has shifted to fully multi-threaded environments, with many of today’s applications making use of both the CPU and GPU to share the load. This is a direction that we’re heading more and more towards and will allow us to reap benefits in the long run.

Doing this allows us to spread performance across both CPU and GPU and push graphics based intensive tasks where they natively should be on the GPU. This doesn’t just affect 2d Classic as a mode, it also affects the entire user interface, which we can share tasks on the GPU.

It’s important that we free up the CPU to allow us to further development in other areas of FM and we’re keen to take advantage of that as time passes.

It’s never easy to drop support for something but we’ve been one of the best in the business at backwards support. There are very few other games or software out there that would have kept Software Rendering around and supported two engine’s in this respect for as long as we have.

But, from the data that we’ve looked at over the last years, we know the capabilities of the hardware our users have, and the majority of that hardware will be able to benefit from the future direction we want to take.

We appreciate there are niggles and differences of opinion of the current 2d Classic view in FM 2018 Beta. We’ve tried to make a hybrid that mixes the best elements of the original and add some flavour from having everything unified under one system.

Plenty of you have raised some good feedback and issues here as well, and we’re listening to that and making some adjustments where necessary. We may not be able to please every single one of you, but there will be improvements made in time for release.

We have already made refinements to the lighting of the pitches, fixed an issue where the 2d classic ball spins on the spot when it shouldn’t, as well as added the ability to zoom in and out a little, which will help you adjust the amount of pitch you can see.

Hope that helps.

Thank you Neil for your reasonable explanation about the removal of the old 2D.

If that was the early explanation about why the reasons were behind the removal of the old 2D and keeping the new 2D classic, that backlash wouldn't be so intense.

I wonder why didn't Miles post this to begin with...

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1 hour ago, grade said:

Thank you Neil for your reasonable explanation about the removal of the old 2D.

If that was the early explanation about why the reasons were behind the removal of the old 2D and keeping the new 2D classic, that backlash wouldn't be so intense.

I wonder why didn't Miles post this to begin with...

To be fair, @Neil Brock, had already said that the old 2D classic was preventing the evolution of the graphic engine, and also that the 2D view was here to stay, as always.

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Guest El Payaso
4 hours ago, Neil Dejyothin said:

 

Hello Neil. Was there a particular reason why you removed the 'split view' from the 2D? Is there any possibility that we could get it back? For my liking there isn't anything else wrong with the 2D but that I don't like the pitch to be that big but to have it half on my screen and on the right hand side I want to have all the important statistics from the game.

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11 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Hello Neil. Was there a particular reason why you removed the 'split view' from the 2D? Is there any possibility that we could get it back? For my liking there isn't anything else wrong with the 2D but that I don't like the pitch to be that big but to have it half on my screen and on the right hand side I want to have all the important statistics from the game.

You can replicate most of the split view functionality by pinning the widgets to the side of the screen.

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Guest El Payaso
2 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

You can replicate most of the split view functionality by pinning the widgets to the side of the screen.

I know but it doesn't make the pitch appear smaller.

An option to use the split screen or to be able to make the pitch smaller would be highly appreciated.

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20 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I know but it doesn't make the pitch appear smaller.

An option to use the split screen or to be able to make the pitch smaller would be highly appreciated.

Tbh its not that big a deal to me. There are so many camera angles to choose from I just go to TV, pin the widgets to the side or to the bottom, and I can still follow the action. Camera goes left to right,  ball is always in the centre, nothing gets blocked. Ideally the widgets should fade away.  If people wanted to pin it left and right and try and get a mini pitch in the middle, then I am afraid it may be an issue, I kinda think that is a bit overkill. Sorry forgot this was about 2D

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4 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I know but it doesn't make the pitch appear smaller.

An option to use the split screen or to be able to make the pitch smaller would be highly appreciated.

If you pin them the pitch stops at them instead of going behind;

capture_001_30102017_170702.thumb.png.f79a8d2e2b359fffddcd63cbebd6b416.png

 

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