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[FM18] Uncle Sam Custom USA Pyramid [WIP]

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If I split USA and Canada, I do plan on at least a 3-tier Canadian pyramid: CPL - CSL - Regional Leagues. The only problem is that I don't like creating a bunch of fake clubs and I'm not really going to spend a bunch of time on the Canadian pyramid. If someone wants to edit a bunch of the defunct Canadian clubs in the database and send it to me I can expand the pyramid.

The CONCACAF Champions League will be modified to be more like the UEFA format: 32 teams, 8 groups, 16 advance to the Knockout Stage.

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I like the first team football experience of B Teams, but when in use I prefer being able to use my 'reserves' when injuries or other issues affect first team players. Not being able to temporarily promote a B team to the first team for a match or two irritates me, seems in Spain for example, once placed in the B team they are there for the season. Am I wrong?

No opinion on Candadian teams, tho I run a personal mod that removes GB nations from EU and adds Canada, Australia and New Zealand to the Overseas Territories Act so like to see Canada witha  viable regen pool.

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On 18/10/2017 at 21:02, Uncle_Sam said:

So I thought I would go ahead and open a thread to get some input on how to structure my Custom USA Pyramid file for FM 2018. Let me be clear, this will not be the REAL LIFE file. This will be a custom file implementing promotion and relegation into the US system. I'll post how I envision the format working and I'll take your thoughts on that. I'll also just throw out some questions on aspects of the file I really haven't decided on yet.

League Structure:

MLS - 24 Teams - Two Conferences

NASL - 24 Teams - Two Conferences

USL - 24 Teams - Two Conferences

USL III - 36 Teams - Two Conferences

NISA - 36 Teams - Two Conferences

NPSL - 72 - Four Conferences

I'll probably set it up so that the rest of the clubs are in the USASA and the NPSL will have teams promoted from that pool.

The US Open Cup will be recreated, although functioning mostly as it does in real life.

Questions

1. The Youth Structure: I go back and forth on this. One idea is that I will have a U18 division, but for all of the clubs that have an Academy in the game I might let them function as the parent club's U18 squad and compete in the USSDA.

2. II/B Clubs - Do I keep these in? For example, do I keep Orlando B in the game? Part of me wants to do that, and set it up so that they can't be promoted above the parent club or promoted into the top two divisions (NASL & MLS). If I get rid of the Academy teams, then I will probably also get rid of the II/B teams. What it amounts to is do I want to keep the system as close as I can to real life while incorporating pro/rel, or do I want to just start fresh? For example, do I want the clubs to look like this:

Houston Dynamo -> Houston U23s -> Houston U18s, or Houston Dynamo -> Rio Grande Valley FC -> Dynamo Academy.

I have to say that I'm leaning towards keeping the B teams and Academies, but I'm open to hearing everyone out. 

3. Canadian teams - Should I leave them in or create their own pyramid? I'm definitely leaning towards taking them out. For one, it really makes everything else much cleaner, from setting up cups to modifying the Champions League. But again, I'm open to input.

First of all, I'm Italian and apologize for my not perfect English, I hope I can make you understand my words correctly. I can't wait you complete this db to play it :)

About your questions:

1. I agree with your idea;

2. I'd like very much if II/B Teams are like a "normal" team that is the Houston Dynamo and Rio Grande Valley FC can play TOGETHER in the same tier, even in MLS and in NASL. If you don't want this, I accept how you will do it (hoping that you tell me how to do it in the way I want it, please ;) ).

3. I always wanted to join the two pyramids in this way but I don't know if FM editor allows it:

      1st tier: MLS

      2nd tier: NASL

      3th tier: USL + Canadian 1st tier

      4th tier: NISA + Candian 2nd tier

      etc

According to you, is it possible?

Any way, if you split USA and Canada, according to me you should leave in USA pyramid all Canadian teams that play in USA pyramid (Toronto FC, Montreal Impact, Vancouver Whitecaps, FC Edmonton, Ottawa Fury, etc.)

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On 10/20/2017 at 10:59, PaMi 7 said:

First of all, I'm Italian and apologize for my not perfect English, I hope I can make you understand my words correctly. I can't wait you complete this db to play it :)

About your questions:

1. I agree with your idea;

2. I'd like very much if II/B Teams are like a "normal" team that is the Houston Dynamo and Rio Grande Valley FC can play TOGETHER in the same tier, even in MLS and in NASL. If you don't want this, I accept how you will do it (hoping that you tell me how to do it in the way I want it, please ;) ).

3. I always wanted to join the two pyramids in this way but I don't know if FM editor allows it:

      1st tier: MLS

      2nd tier: NASL

      3th tier: USL + Canadian 1st tier

      4th tier: NISA + Candian 2nd tier

      etc

According to you, is it possible?

Any way, if you split USA and Canada, according to me you should leave in USA pyramid all Canadian teams that play in USA pyramid (Toronto FC, Montreal Impact, Vancouver Whitecaps, FC Edmonton, Ottawa Fury, etc.)

Thank you for your feedback. I really don't like the idea of a II/B club playing at the same level or higher than the parent club. What I could do (and I probably would if more people preferred the English-system of no B clubs) is make the clubs like Rio Grande Valley FC and Bethlehem Steel their own entities. 

As for the Idea of incorporating the Canadian pyramid, there might be a way to do it, but I don't know if it's possible to create a division that fluctuated in size. For example, let's say 4 American clubs got relegated from NASL while 3 American clubs and 1 Canadian club got promoted. Who would fill the empty slot in the Canadian 1st tier?  I don't know how to force the leagues the change in size to make sure that the clubs are properly allocated into their regional division. If someone else knows I'd be happy to work with them.

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On 10/19/2017 at 19:03, The Good Rebel said:

Is there any way to add promotion and relegation to the current US pyramid and still keep the unique rules?

I have never gotten it to work in the past. It always resulted in a crash. Maybe with the 18 editor it will be possible.

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On 10/20/2017 at 07:03, Kalou said:

Sam will you be making a real life one?

Very likely. The real life file is such a moving target right now though, with the coming NISA and USL3. I want to incorporate those but there isn't a lot of information on how it will work.

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7 hours ago, atcdelay said:

My only request for this database-keep Columbus in Columbus.

Ha, well if they move I will probably move in the game. Hopefully they'll get a stadium built. As many great moments as there were in their current stadium, it is a bit antiquated.

Edited by Uncle_Sam

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On 10/18/2017 at 23:50, Uncle_Sam said:

If I split USA and Canada, I do plan on at least a 3-tier Canadian pyramid: CPL - CSL - Regional Leagues. The only problem is that I don't like creating a bunch of fake clubs and I'm not really going to spend a bunch of time on the Canadian pyramid. If someone wants to edit a bunch of the defunct Canadian clubs in the database and send it to me I can expand the pyramid.

The CONCACAF Champions League will be modified to be more like the UEFA format: 32 teams, 8 groups, 16 advance to the Knockout Stage.

There are about 50-60 ish clubs in the Canadian before you have to start making them up, i think. 

I have 4 tier system (20/22/22/24) with a handful made up from the MLS/NHL/MLB/NFL Canadian sides (10 ish).

Their is a CONCACAF File is knockout around somewhere, prelims =  

Screenshot.thumb.png.917581d4791fd192e28c112a3cd63bfc.png

Then into the 32 team format to the final.. CL style.

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MLS Year 1 will definitely have the 21 MLS clubs:

1. Atlanta United

2. Chicago Fire

3. Colorado Rapids

4. Columbus Crew SC

5. D.C. United

6. FC Dallas

7. Houston Dynamo

8. LA Galaxy

9. Los Angeles FC

10. Minnesota United

11. New England Revolution

12. New York City FC

13. New York Red Bulls

14. Orlando City

15. Philadelphia Union

16. Portland Timbers

17. Real Salt Lake

18. San Jose Earthquakes

19. Seattle Sounders FC

20. Sporting Kansas City

21. Miami (Custom: Inter Miami)

 

My question is who should occupy the other 3 spots? Obviously it should come from the expansion candidates: Charlotte Independence, FC Cincinnati, Detroit City FC, Indy Eleven, Nashville SC, Phoenix Rising, North Carolina FC, Sacramento Republic, Saint Louis FC, San Antonio FC, San Diego (Custom: San Diego Waves), Tampa Bay Rowdies. Currently I'm leaning towards FC Cincinnati, Sacramento Republic, and Tampa Bay Rowdies since they seem to be the leading candidates in real life.

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On 22/10/2017 at 00:00, Uncle_Sam said:

Thank you for your feedback. I really don't like the idea of a II/B club playing at the same level or higher than the parent club. What I could do (and I probably would if more people preferred the English-system of no B clubs) is make the clubs like Rio Grande Valley FC and Bethlehem Steel their own entities. 

As for the Idea of incorporating the Canadian pyramid, there might be a way to do it, but I don't know if it's possible to create a division that fluctuated in size. For example, let's say 4 American clubs got relegated from NASL while 3 American clubs and 1 Canadian club got promoted. Who would fill the empty slot in the Canadian 1st tier?  I don't know how to force the leagues the change in size to make sure that the clubs are properly allocated into their regional division. If someone else knows I'd be happy to work with them.

About 1st bold text, you should do clubs like Rio Grande Valley FC and Bethlehem Steel are a "normal" clubs but set as "default" they often play friendlies with teams who are their parent club in real life. It could be a good compromise but I trust you ;)

About the 2nd bold text, you're right, I don't thought tp this "problem".

On 22/10/2017 at 07:08, Uncle_Sam said:

MLS Year 1 will definitely have the 21 MLS clubs:

1. Atlanta United

2. Chicago Fire

3. Colorado Rapids

4. Columbus Crew SC

5. D.C. United

6. FC Dallas

7. Houston Dynamo

8. LA Galaxy

9. Los Angeles FC

10. Minnesota United

11. New England Revolution

12. New York City FC

13. New York Red Bulls

14. Orlando City

15. Philadelphia Union

16. Portland Timbers

17. Real Salt Lake

18. San Jose Earthquakes

19. Seattle Sounders FC

20. Sporting Kansas City

21. Miami (Custom: Inter Miami)

 

My question is who should occupy the other 3 spots? Obviously it should come from the expansion candidates: Charlotte Independence, FC Cincinnati, Detroit City FC, Indy Eleven, Nashville SC, Phoenix Rising, North Carolina FC, Sacramento Republic, Saint Louis FC, San Antonio FC, San Diego (Custom: San Diego Waves), Tampa Bay Rowdies. Currently I'm leaning towards FC Cincinnati, Sacramento Republic, and Tampa Bay Rowdies since they seem to be the leading candidates in real life.

So, you prefere Canadian clubs play in Canadian Pyramid :(

For the last 3 spots, I agree for FC Cincinnati but I should choose Saint Louis FC and Detroit City FC because they are 3 teams I "love" but your choose is closer to reality so good choose ;)

Edited by PaMi 7

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I say keep the B/II teams in a division below. Also, I don't know if this will change in FM18 but even in an edited file MLS still took a 3rd of all transfer fees. If that hasn't changed then maybe a custom first division? Any thoughts on moving to a Fall-Spring schedule? Losing half your team to international Call-ups is not fun.

Edited by Dunbar22
Added thoughts

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Uncle Sam, regarding youth teams, in my experience with your previous databases, the U18 teams in year one were always comprised of greyed out players whereas MLS Academy teams always had 'real' players you could sign to the first team.

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7 hours ago, atcdelay said:

Uncle Sam, regarding youth teams, in my experience with your previous databases, the U18 teams in year one were always comprised of greyed out players whereas MLS Academy teams always had 'real' players you could sign to the first team.

That has been my experience as well. Because of all the frustrating hard-coding with MLS it takes clubs a while to populate to the point where they can allow young players to occupy the U18 squad.

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I like the idea of joining the pyramids, but you'd need some to create a "D4" parent division (for example) with PDL, NPSL, and the Canadian leagues all sending teams into a promotion playoff

I've considered using Canada as a host nation for "winter" leagues like USSDA in order to accommodate the winter schedule, I think that would just throw things off too much though

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Would you be looking at including the NCAA as a closed youth league? With a potential feeder link to clubs? Could include academies and B teams there.

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I honestly don't know if keeping the NCAA is even a good idea. I might try it with and without and see if it can work.

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Why not try a fantasy approach Uncle_Sam?

Add NCAA as a normal teams, instead. Add them as lower level teams, below NPSL e PDL.

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On 10/18/2017 at 15:02, Uncle_Sam said:

So I thought I would go ahead and open a thread to get some input on how to structure my Custom USA Pyramid file for FM 2018. Let me be clear, this will not be the REAL LIFE file. This will be a custom file implementing promotion and relegation into the US system. I'll post how I envision the format working and I'll take your thoughts on that. I'll also just throw out some questions on aspects of the file I really haven't decided on yet.

League Structure:

MLS - 24 Teams - Two Conferences

NASL - 24 Teams - Two Conferences

USL - 24 Teams - Two Conferences

USL III - 36 Teams - Two Conferences

NISA - 36 Teams - Two Conferences

NPSL - 72 - Four Conferences

I'll probably set it up so that the rest of the clubs are in the USASA and the NPSL will have teams promoted from that pool.

The US Open Cup will be recreated, although functioning mostly as it does in real life.

Questions

1. The Youth Structure: I go back and forth on this. One idea is that I will have a U18 division, but for all of the clubs that have an Academy in the game I might let them function as the parent club's U18 squad and compete in the USSDA.

2. II/B Clubs - Do I keep these in? For example, do I keep Orlando B in the game? Part of me wants to do that, and set it up so that they can't be promoted above the parent club or promoted into the top two divisions (NASL & MLS). If I get rid of the Academy teams, then I will probably also get rid of the II/B teams. What it amounts to is do I want to keep the system as close as I can to real life while incorporating pro/rel, or do I want to just start fresh? For example, do I want the clubs to look like this:

Houston Dynamo -> Houston U23s -> Houston U18s, or Houston Dynamo -> Rio Grande Valley FC -> Dynamo Academy.

I have to say that I'm leaning towards keeping the B teams and Academies, but I'm open to hearing everyone out. 

3. Canadian teams - Should I leave them in or create their own pyramid? I'm definitely leaning towards taking them out. For one, it really makes everything else much cleaner, from setting up cups to modifying the Champions League. But again, I'm open to input.

I prefer the U23 to U18 Model personally in terms of youth dev. are you committed to maintaining the names of MLS, NASL and USL? Moving to a traditional Pro/Rel it might make sense to rebrand as D1, D2, D3. Huge fan of previous years work btw!

 

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On 10/29/2017 at 15:13, Uncle_Sam said:

I honestly don't know if keeping the NCAA is even a good idea. I might try it with and without and see if it can work.

NOOOOOOO! NCAA was a game changer! 

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So here is the plan:

I'm going to release the real life version first. Hopefully finish that in 1-2 weeks. Then I'll use that file to build a custom pyramid with pro/rel.

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re: joining the pyramids, can't you just set the divisions to minimum/maximum size with preferred regional divisions? I've never tried it in practice, but I assumed that's kind of what those numbers were for.

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On 11/10/2017 at 14:26, Uncle_Sam said:

So here is the plan:

I'm going to release the real life version first. Hopefully finish that in 1-2 weeks. Then I'll use that file to build a custom pyramid with pro/rel.

Hi, do you know when the pro/rel version will be available? Have been looking for one for weeks!

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On 11/9/2017 at 22:44, Boyle.se said:

I prefer the U23 to U18 Model personally in terms of youth dev. are you committed to maintaining the names of MLS, NASL and USL? Moving to a traditional Pro/Rel it might make sense to rebrand as D1, D2, D3. Huge fan of previous years work btw!

 

@Uncle_Sam Everything about this is perfect!

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I also second the u18/21 model. Because at the moment the youth academy players don't seem to train (obviously they don't get match experience either, but they don't seem to really develop at all). That's one of the biggest draws of custom set ups like this for me, actually being able to train and develop players in the lower levels. 

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This sounds amazing. Is there any guess on when it would be done? Would I also be able to use the other world leagues with this?

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Sam, I have a question that is slightly of topic but which your expertise might allow you to answer.  In the vanilla game do MLS teams ever hire from their academies?  I know that database updates reflect rosters which will include academy products, but in my game experience talented kids are poached by other countries and MLS teams only seem to repopulate local players through the draft or from lower leagues.

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This looks like some fantastic idea! Cant wait to see the result. Will this still have playoffs? 

One idea ive always had but never really known how to implement in the editor is this; 

MLS is made of 40 teams - 2 conferences of 20 (East and West). The top 4 or 8 of each conference then meet in a MLS playoff to decide the winner. What do you think of this idea, any idea on how to implement it on the editor?

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10 minuti fa, mhamlet49 ha scritto:

This looks like some fantastic idea! Cant wait to see the result. Will this still have playoffs? 

One idea ive always had but never really known how to implement in the editor is this; 

MLS is made of 40 teams - 2 conferences of 20 (East and West). The top 4 or 8 of each conference then meet in a MLS playoff to decide the winner. What do you think of this idea, any idea on how to implement it on the editor?

According to me, it would be better if:

MLS is made of 32 teams - 2 conferences of 16 (East and West) both double round robin (in regular season, every team play 2 times against team of their own conference for 30 matches. Playoff in the same way of real life but with the top 8 (all two legged matches with ET and PK, without away gol rule) of each conference; 2 teams winner of each conferences meet in one legged match to decide national winner

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Why only have 32? As the USA is huge, my idea is that by having 40 teams in the MLS, the top league is basically split into two separate leagues. The playoffs is then like a USA champions league if you like, a way to determine who is best in the continent. 

The USA is almost the size of Europe, so my fantasy idea is that the teams in the top league should be of the quality of the best teams in Europe and that winning the conference should be considered an achievement as such as winning the Premier League or LaLiga and winning the Playoff would be an achievement such as the Champions League. 

I would however, like to see the league keep the current calendar format, but with a league break for the international tournaments, if such a thing is possible in the editor?

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1 ora fa, mhamlet49 ha scritto:

Why only have 32? As the USA is huge, my idea is that by having 40 teams in the MLS, the top league is basically split into two separate leagues. The playoffs is then like a USA champions league if you like, a way to determine who is best in the continent. 

The USA is almost the size of Europe, so my fantasy idea is that the teams in the top league should be of the quality of the best teams in Europe and that winning the conference should be considered an achievement as such as winning the Premier League or LaLiga and winning the Playoff would be an achievement such as the Champions League. 

I would however, like to see the league keep the current calendar format, but with a league break for the international tournaments, if such a thing is possible in the editor?

According to me, your idea is very good but mine is "better": other US sport's top league, NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL, have respectively 30, 30, 31, 32 teams. In addition, teams that arrive in final match will play 30 matches in regular season + 7 matches for Playoff = 37 matches. in the season, US teams play also US Open Cup and some teams also CONCACAF Champions League so it could mean many matches in the season. With your idea, matches will be 45, even if there is not much difference to tell the truth. Which teams would you put and why those?

However, I think it's possibile to do as you say, just be good with the editor but I'm not good enough :(

 

P.S.: in your idea there are also promotions/relegations? If yes, if yes, how would you structure them?

P.P.S.: Sorry for my not perfect English, I'm italian and used Google Translate to help me.

Edited by PaMi 7

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Well if you consider top european teams, they play over 50 games if they reach the finals of their domestic and continental competitions (e.g. premier league, fa cup, league cup, champions/europa league) so the number of games will still be lower than those leagues. 

It would still feature pro/rel, but of course a similar set up would have to exist further down the tier, although the playoff scenario wouldnt be required, it would simply be a number of teams bottom of east/west leagues go down and the same number from each east/west league would promote. The idea of a single table would be gone, it would simply be two different leagues (east league and west league) but on the same tier. Its this I am unsure is possible on the editor though. I looked into learning the editor but it was far too complicated for my little brain haha!

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15 ore fa, mhamlet49 ha scritto:

Well if you consider top european teams, they play over 50 games if they reach the finals of their domestic and continental competitions (e.g. premier league, fa cup, league cup, champions/europa league) so the number of games will still be lower than those leagues. 

It would still feature pro/rel, but of course a similar set up would have to exist further down the tier, although the playoff scenario wouldnt be required, it would simply be a number of teams bottom of east/west leagues go down and the same number from each east/west league would promote. The idea of a single table would be gone, it would simply be two different leagues (east league and west league) but on the same tier. Its this I am unsure is possible on the editor though. I looked into learning the editor but it was far too complicated for my little brain haha!

Certainly the top European teams play more but I've always thought about doing a North American championship (or an American and a Canadian one) with fewer matches considering all the possible matches in national and international competitions but I thought about it and your idea convinces more and more so I'll repeat the question:
what would be the 40 teams you would like to include and why those?

about the pro/rel, maybe you can do something with the editor but I'm not sure because I'm not so good

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I am unsure what teams they would be, my knowledge of american soccer teams isnt extensive, but I have been doing some reading today and came across this interesting article. http://soccerreform.us/blog/?p=43

It's basically the idea I pitched above but with 2 18team conferences instead of 20 and some other minor differences. I also came across a plan by NISA however I don't like their idea as much as this 2 open pyramid structure idea. 

Edited by mhamlet49

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I can't wait for a database like this. I would really like Canadian and USA clubs separated and rules like the English PL. So regular first team, B-team/U23-team not in a league, youth team in separate league and just named LA Galaxy U19/18 for example. This way you can get a first team player get match fit with the reserves when back from injury etc.

Above cleans everything up nicely. I don't like B-teams in the same pyramid like Bundesliga/LaLiga. Premier League setup has my preference

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Any plans to integrate UPSL teams into this pyramid? I know that you're planning to add UPSL to your realistic database, but I'd love to see it in this one as well.

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On 16/05/2018 at 01:31, Sebacore said:

Any updates on this?

I hope there will be a download for this soon!

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The Eastern and Western conferences are flipped (LA, Seattle, etc in East, Columbus etc in West). Otherwise no issues just starting a new game!

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On 29/06/2018 at 07:46, Dodis said:

The Eastern and Western conferences are flipped (LA, Seattle, etc in East, Columbus etc in West). Otherwise no issues just starting a new game!

Wow, I can't believe I didn't notice that but I'm pretty sure I found the fix. The editor changed how it regionalizes leagues and I didn't notice when I rebuilt it. Opening post is updated with the corrected file.

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So I've just played through the first season and it was pretty nice. What bothered me though was the fixture. I had like 10 matches in March and then like 3/4 weeks without a game in September. I know nothing about the real MLS so maybe it the way it's supposed to be and you took inspiration from but I find it strange anyway.

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15 minutes ago, mackos7 said:

So I've just played through the first season and it was pretty nice. What bothered me though was the fixture. I had like 10 matches in March and then like 3/4 weeks without a game in September. I know nothing about the real MLS so maybe it the way it's supposed to be and you took inspiration from but I find it strange anyway.

That doesn't have anything to do with real life MLS play, but the game allocates matches at it sees fit. It might have something to do with Champions League and cup play, I don't know.

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Do you think this would work with classens's files (minus his USA/Canada file)?

And do you recommend this file or your non pro/rel file as the best option to play with FC Cincy (I know the other file has the academy problem hardcoded)?

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