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ilkork

Does experience matter in FM?

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I have this 19y old Central Defender whom I loaned out. He hasn't even played more than 5 matches for me (League, Cup) the past 2 seasons. But he is slightly better in everything (attributes, personality) from a 24y old Central Defender I have, who has played about 40 matches for me (League, Cup, Europa League, Champions League). And of course, the 19y old has the potential to become even better.

IRL, the 24y old DC would be far more experienced than the 19y old DC and that would count as to who should you choose. But, is such thing coded in FM?

And to take this one step further, let's say you have an 18y old MC who is better in everything (attributes, personality) than a 30y old MC, but he has no experience, whereas the 30y old has plenty (League, Cup, EL, CL, International).
Would the 30y old's experience matter?

 

I've searched for similar topics, but they all are from 2009-2010 (this and this)

Edited by ilkork

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Not directly however the older player should in theory have better mental attributes.

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4 minutes ago, Barside said:

Not directly however the older player should in theory have better mental attributes.

Thanks for the reply!
So, it's only that? The fact that most older players have better mental attributes?

Now, a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you have an XI full of 18y olds with amazing attributes (even mental ones) and personalities. Are you saying that in FM, they could beat a team full of 28-30y old experienced fellas with slightly worse attributes and personalities??? I doubt that such thing could happen irl, at least not all the time.

 

Did I just find one more thing in FM that needs fixing :D?

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I'm sorry but I don't get your logic at all.

Experience as such doesn't make player any better IRL either. 18 yo kid can be a better player than a 26 yo is or will ever be.

Players tend to get better as years go on, but that's because the experience gives them the opportunity to develop their abilities (technical, physical and mental). Works pretty much the same way IRL and in FM. If player A is better than player B - he in fact is a better player. Age or amount of games played doesn't matter.

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7 minutes ago, Seqw said:

I'm sorry but I don't get your logic at all.

I think you can find my logic in everyday examples.
Would most teams pick the wonderkid in important matches or the more experienced one?

And yes, it's true that an 18y old can be a lot better than a 26y old. But teams do count the player's experience for picking up the match squad (at least in important matches).

Edited by ilkork

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18 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Would most teams pick the wonderkid in important matches or the more experienced one?

They would probably pick the better player.

18 yo Messi over 28 yo average Joe? I would pick Messi any day.

Edited by Seqw

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Just now, Seqw said:

18 yo Messi over 28 yo average Joe - I would pick Messi any day.

Messi is an exception, don't use him in examples mate :).

And no, most teams would pick the more experienced player in important matches. At least 90% of times.

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6 minutes ago, ilkork said:

And no, most teams would pick the more experienced player in important matches. At least 90% of times.

Would they really? I mean if the kid is by every standard a better player, would they still put the grumpy old man on the pitch?

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7 minutes ago, Seqw said:

Would they really? I mean if the kid is by every standard a better player, would they still put the grumpy old man on the pitch?

Do you really want me to research such thing? It's gonna take me at least 1 hour...
I mean, come on... IRL, most managers choose the experienced player over the wonderkid in semi finals, finals, or generally, important matches. As I said earlier, at least 90% of times.

And a 28y-30y old isn't a "grumpy old man".

Edited by ilkork

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1 minute ago, ilkork said:

Do you really want me to research such thing? It's gonna take me at least 1 hour...
I mean, come on... IRL, most managers choose the experienced player over the wonderkid in semi finals, finals, or generally, important matches.

And a 28y-30y old isn't a "grumpy old man".

Oh they can be, at least I am. :lol:

But that's because most of the teams are build on players at the peak of their careers. They are not picked because they have experience and age, they are picked because they are the best players of the team.

Still talented enough young players break in to first teams all the time and takeover the playing time of more experienced players.

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54 minutes ago, ilkork said:

I think you can find my logic in everyday examples.
Would most teams pick the wonderkid in important matches or the more experienced one?

And yes, it's true that an 18y old can be a lot better than a 26y old. But teams do count the player's experience for picking up the match squad (at least in important matches).

Your logic is sound, at a pure level if you were about to play a CL final & had two identical players in every regard (FM = attributes) you'd pick the one more positive experience of the competition & elite level cup finals whereas in FM it's a coin flip because that competitive experience has no value of itself.

I understand why such a specific factor is not in FM because irl it's an almost undefinable quality & the only mechanic would be XP which is far too binary in its application & open to being ruthlessly exploited by the end user.

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11 minutes ago, Barside said:

Your logic is sound, at a pure level if you were about to play a CL final & had two identical players in every regard (FM = attributes) you'd pick the one more positive experience of the competition & elite level cup finals whereas in FM it's a coin flip because that competitive experience has no value of itself.

Thank you, I thought we were getting nowhere :D!
 

11 minutes ago, Barside said:

I understand why such a specific factor is not in FM because irl it's an almost undefinable quality & the only mechanic would be XP which is far too binary in its application & open to being ruthlessly exploited by the end user.

I don't know about that, because for example, would you choose the better 18y old with less experience or the 30y old with most experience but slightly worse attributes?
I think such feature would make the game more competitive and make us like more the experienced footballers. I mean, 90% of FM players (including me) try to have as a young squad as possible and not care much about a more experienced 30y old fella.

Edited by ilkork

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8 minutes ago, ilkork said:

I think such feature would make the game more competitive and make us like more the experienced players. I mean, 90% of FM players (including me) try to have as a young squad as possible.

I believe the problem is more due to the high number of super talented regens in the game who seem to have matured at an age that IRL doesn't happen nearly as often.

And also the ME which doesn't give mental attributes the appreciation they deserve. Mental side is in fact the most important part IRL.

Edited by Seqw

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The strange thing is that the game seems to try to give the player an impression that it matters by asking questions in press conferences related to this and labeling things such as experienced squads in the match reports.

I would also like to know if international experience has any relevance in the game at all. It is something the scouts label in the reports, but what is the effect for club games? Is there any sort of confirmed effect? Not just speculation made by others.

As well as competition experience? Does it have any effect? Even then at least i don't think it should have any (its all the same football game, rules and pitch).

It would be nice if there was some more clarification about how these things actually work in the game.

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

IRL, the 24y old DC would be far more experienced than the 19y old DC and that would count as to who should you choose. But, is such thing coded in FM?

We have to define what experience really mean. A sportsperson once said on TV that "experience is the level of knowledge of the game, not the age". I agree with that. Some of the older players never learn anything through years but on the other hand a 20 year old may have a better learning ability, confidence, knowledge and desire to improve for the game. Let's say mbappe. We can't say he is inexperienced now. He proved what he can do, he has ability and the confidence. He doesn't feel like a player on his debut. Of course he may be better through years as learning never ends, but he is more experienced than many of older players. He jumped up to the elite level now and that's all matters i guess.

In the game, game itself gives us the tips like "strikers generally have their best footballing years between the ages of 27-32. There must be a hidden attribute and older players are likely to give their best and be more consistent.

To conclude, ability brings the experience of an older player in a short time but age doesn't bring the ability with it.

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1 minute ago, Seqw said:

I believe the problem is more due to the high number of super talented regens in the game who seem to have matured at an age that IRL doesn't happen nearly as often.

That's also true :thup:.
My other DC is 19y old and is only 5CA points from reaching his PA. Bear in mind, he started with 110CA at the age of 17 and now, 2 seasons later, he already has 155CA...

 

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2 minutes ago, ermant said:

We have to define what experience really mean.

Players over 30y old who have played in big occasions, finals, etc. and generally have A LOT of appearances, thus have more confidence in winning a match and feel no pressure, whereas an inexperienced player will be a lot more "scared".
Xavi, Iniesta, Zanetti, Cambiasso, Giggs, Ferdinand, Terry, Buffon. You know...

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4 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Players over 30y old who have played in big occasions, finals, etc. and generally have A LOT of appearances, thus have more confidence in winning a match and feel no pressure, whereas an inexperienced player will be a lot more "scared".
Xavi, Iniesta, Zanetti, Cambiasso, Giggs, Ferdinand, Terry, Buffon. You know...

Exactly, we all agree with that but a player doesn't have to wait until 30 years of age for not being scared and perform in a high level. He may experience those big matches younger and better adapt himself as some will never.

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5 minutes ago, ermant said:

Exactly, we all agree with that but a player doesn't have to wait until 30 years of age for not being scared and perform in a high level. He may experience those big matches younger and better adapt himself as some will never.

Not the norm...

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59 minutes ago, Barside said:

Your logic is sound, at a pure level if you were about to play a CL final & had two identical players in every regard (FM = attributes) you'd pick the one more positive experience of the competition & elite level cup finals whereas in FM it's a coin flip because that competitive experience has no value of itself.

I get that sort of but as a man of science I probably just can't agree. :D

I mean in a case of two identical players (or to make it easier to understand you can also think of a product; a phone for example, same model, two copies to choose from) it actually is down to coin flip to choose. Everything else we take in to consideration is more or less nonsense.

Now if we find a reason to favor one over the other player, they aren't identical in our mind now are they? So out of those "identical players" if we pick the more experienced one because we think he is more likely to stand the pressure of a cup final, we actually rate him as better player.

You follow?

IRL we only have subjective ratings of players whereas in FM we have exact facts about them, which makes the selecting so much easier.

Edited by Seqw

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5 minutes ago, Seqw said:

Now if we find a reason to favor one over the other player, they aren't identical in our mind now are they? So out of those "identical players" if we pick the more experienced one because we think he is more likely to stand the pressure of a cup final, we actually rate him as better player.

You follow?

Well, two identical players in every regard (attributes, personality), except age and appearances.
The one is 20y old with 100apps, the other is 30y old with 500apps.

In finals, important matches in general, most managers irl would choose the 30y old. But, in all other matches, most managers would choose the 20y old, so that he would progress and become better.

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By the looks of it, this could be one of the positive aspects of the "Dynamics" feature: it appears that if your 24 year old centre back has been fitting well into the system and has a strong linkup with his partner the tactics engine highlights this (and presumably the player gets a small boost in the ME), and thus he can probably outperform the slightly more talented 18 year old reserve defender. (There is how fluid the players' understanding of your tactics is in current FMs, but I believe you can train that up by playing reserve matches)

The other way this probably ought to show up is "consistency" and "big matches", which I believe does improve as players gain experience but possibly not as much as it could/should do. The "pressure" attribute should probably be the same way.

 

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9 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Well, two identical players in every regard (attributes, personality), except age and appearances.
The one is 20y old with 100apps, the other is 30y old with 500apps.

In finals, important matches in general, most managers irl would choose the 30y old. But, in all other matches, most managers would choose the 20y old, so that he would progress and become better.

But IRL we don't really have identical players. Nor do we have factual information about ones penalty taking ability.

IRL we only have subjective ratings of players whereas in FM we have exact facts about them, which makes the selecting so much easier.

So basically the difference is that in FM we can choose the actually best option and IRL the coach needs to assess who's the better choice and play him.

For example Mbappe was favored instead of more experienced players in the CL last year and that turned out to be a good choice.

Edited by Seqw

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Experience isn't everything. eg. Phil Jones was decent when he first moved to Man Utd as a teenager and has only got better since. While on the other hand the much more experienced Martin Demichelis was an absolutely atrocious player when he went to Man City.

Edited by rusty217

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2 minutes ago, Seqw said:

But IRL we don't really have identical players. Nor do we have factual information about ones penalty taking ability.

IRL we only have subjective ratings of players whereas in FM we have exact facts about them, which makes the selecting so much easier.

So basically the difference is that in FM we can choose the actually best option and IRL the coach needs to assess who's the better choice and play him.

Ok, forget about the "identical" comparison.
Player A: Age-20, Slightly better than Player B, 100 apps.
Player B: Age-30, Slightly worse than Player A, 500 apps.

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Just now, rusty217 said:

Experience isn't everything. ie. Phil Jones was decent when he first moved to Man Utd as a teenager and has only got better since. While on the other hand the much more experienced Martin Demichelis was an absolutely atrocious player when he went to Man City.

There is also "football culture" to take into account.
-You can't expect and English player to perform well in leagues outside the UK, especially Mediterranean ones (Spanish, Italian) or South American ones.
-You can't expect old school Brazilians with flair and dribbling (like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo) to perform well in the UK or Germanic, Nordic cultures.

At least 90% of times.

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11 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Ok, forget about the "identical" comparison.
Player A: Age-20, Slightly better than Player B, 100 apps.
Player B: Age-30, Slightly worse than Player A, 500 apps.

Simple answer is A if those are the only facts we can base our decision on. He's better, so he gives us better chance of winning.

But IRL of course it's usually not simple to choose your lineup. There's things that need to be considered; who are we playing against, how are we approaching the game, which one fits the game plan, who's in better form, who's in better shape, is there special chemistry between certain players and so on.

Edited by Seqw

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4 minutes ago, Seqw said:

Simple answer is A if those are the only facts we can base our decision on. He's better, so he gives us better chance of winning.

But IRL of course it's usually not simple to choose your lineup. There's things that need to be considered; who are we playing against, how are we approaching the game, which one fits the game plan, who's in better form, who's in better shape, is there special chemistry between certain players and so on.

Yes, okay. But what about Player's B experience? It doesn't matter at all? Even if his experience alone gives him more confidence in approaching an important match and be less "scared" than Player A, who hasn't played in as many important matches as Player B?
 

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10 minutes ago, ilkork said:

There is also "football culture" to take into account.
-You can't expect and English player to perform well in leagues outside the UK, especially Mediterranean ones (Spanish, Italian) or South American ones.
-You can't expect old school Brazilians with flair and dribbling (like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo) to perform well in the UK or Germanic, Nordic cultures.

At least 90% of times.

Okay, this is just stupid.

A good player, in a team that plays to his/her strengths, will play well anywhere; whereas managers who sign players without knowing how to fit them into a tactic, or build a tactic around them, will struggle to get the best from that player.

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Just now, turnip said:

Okay, this is just stupid.

A good player, in a team that plays to his/her strengths, will play well anywhere; whereas managers who sign players without knowing how to fit them into a tactic, or build a tactic around them, will struggle to get the best from that player.

Stupid? It seems to me that you don't understand some things about football.

If it's stupid, how come most UK players stay in the UK and avoid other leagues?
When was the last time you saw a S. American player be the best in England?
When was the last time you saw a S. American player be the best in Germany?
Why do South American players tend to choose Spain, Italy and Portugal and not the UK or "Northern" leagues?

Because they can't adapt. That's what happens. Different football culture. Leagues in the UK are mostly physical, strong and don't rely much on a player's flair or dribbling, whereas, more "Southern" leagues are more "relaxed".

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Also: work permit restrictions, language (that does play a part) and tactics.

Juninho, when he played for Middlesborough, was one of the best players in the league. At one of the worst teams in the league. They got relegated, but damn if he didn't play well most weeks, with his "flair and dribbling" as you put it.

Why don't English players move abroad? Because their clubs in England practically throw money at them; if you can earn £30k per week as a bit-part player for a mid-low table Premier League team, why would they leave? Also, British clubs typically do a horrible job of actually educating young players, so they'll be unable to speak a foreign language and have no life skills their parents didn't teach them. Moving abroad is a big leap if you're a thick 20 year old who doesn't know how to use a washing machine, let alone talk to someone in Italian or Spanish.

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2 hours ago, ilkork said:

Stupid? It seems to me that you don't understand some things about football.

If it's stupid, how come most UK players stay in the UK and avoid other leagues?
When was the last time you saw a S. American player be the best in England?
When was the last time you saw a S. American player be the best in Germany?
Why do South American players tend to choose Spain, Italy and Portugal and not the UK or "Northern" leagues?

Because they can't adapt. That's what happens. Different football culture. Leagues in the UK are mostly physical, strong and don't rely much on a player's flair or dribbling, whereas, more "Southern" leagues are more "relaxed".

Most UK players stay in the UK because it's in their comfort zone, and because there's loads of money so why would you want to leave? You had Joe Hart at Torino last season, yes he wasn't great but he was abroad, Shaun Wright-Phillips is doing well in MLS, you have Jordan Sancho who's joined Dortmund from Man City and Eric Dier who spent 11 years at Sporting before joining Tottenham. Beckham, Gerrard, Cole, Lampard and Defoe have all been in the MLS, Ravel Morrison is currently in Mexico. There's bound to be more but these are just the ones at the top of my head.

Aguero? Gabriel Jesus? Coutinho? As far as I'm aware these guys are all doing pretty well, as well as Richarilson at Watford,

And for you saying that experience should always rule? Shall we take Olympiacos who have Thanasis Androutsos who last season was in the first team aged 19 and Kostas Fortounis who's only 24 and has only been back at Olympiacos for 3 seasons and has 81 appearances and 35 goals already as well as 30 caps for Greece, if you're good enough then you're old enough.

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5 hours ago, ilkork said:

Messi is an exception, don't use him in examples mate :).

And no, most teams would pick the more experienced player in important matches. At least 90% of times.

Rooney, Ronaldo, Rashford etc.  Do you want anymore?

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24 minutes ago, Makoto Nakamura said:

Most UK players stay in the UK because it's in their comfort zone, and because there's loads of money so why would you want to leave? You had Joe Hart at Torino last season, yes he wasn't great but he was abroad, Shaun Wright-Phillips is doing well in MLS, you have Jordan Sancho who's joined Dortmund from Man City and Eric Dier who spent 11 years at Sporting before joining Tottenham. Beckham, Gerrard, Cole, Lampard and Defoe have all been in the MLS, Ravel Morrison is currently in Mexico. There's bound to be more but these are just the ones at the top of my head.

Yes, but MLS is...English. It's not South America or South Europe. Not very different culture, easier to adapt.
Now, put these players in Brasileirao, and let's see how they fare. You are right, they won't be able to perform well, because they won't be able to adapt.
And it's the same for 90% of South American players. They won't be able to perform in the UK, even if they speak the language, because they are used to a different football culture. One with lower tempo, more direct passing, less compact defences, less physicality.
 

24 minutes ago, Makoto Nakamura said:

Aguero? Gabriel Jesus? Coutinho? As far as I'm aware these guys are all doing pretty well, as well as Richarilson at Watford,

The majority of S.American players can't adapt. That's the way it is, what can we do? I don't make the rules!
 

24 minutes ago, Makoto Nakamura said:

And for you saying that experience should always rule? Shall we take Olympiacos who have Thanasis Androutsos who last season was in the first team aged 19 and Kostas Fortounis who's only 24 and has only been back at Olympiacos for 3 seasons and has 81 appearances and 35 goals already as well as 30 caps for Greece, if you're good enough then you're old enough.

I'm not saying that experience always rules. I'm saying that, in FM, there isn't such thing to consider when buying players, or when selecting your squad for an important match. Shouldn't it be included? I mean, it exists irl, we all agree that there is a thing called "experience" and that older players have it, because they have played more, they have more appearances. And that alone is a small bonus. But no such thing in FM.

Androutsos played a lot last year, because we didn't have better options and because everybody agreed to give youth a chance. What about Manthatis, who has far better flair and dribbling than Androutsos, but wasn't involved a lot because he is inexperienced or "more immature"?
As for Fortounis, you are talking about our best player. Of course he will play. But Fortounis isn't as experienced as Alejandro Dominguez who left this summer from Olympiacos. That's a fact.

Edited by ilkork

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10 minutes ago, eric1000 said:

Rooney, Ronaldo, Rashford etc.  Do you want anymore?

Anymore?

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Surely what you're asking for should be covered by consistency and important matches hidden attributes, as well as previously mentioned mentals for reading the game (and determination, concentration in approaching it?). I mean, the perceived draw backs of playing a young, talented player over a reliable, solid veteran is that the young player will be inconsistent while he matures and gains a better understanding of the game and that he won't handle the pressure as well in the derbies and other big games.

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8 minutes ago, Cal585 said:

Surely what you're asking for should be covered by consistency and important matches hidden attributes, as well as previously mentioned mentals for reading the game (and determination, concentration in approaching it?).

It should, but, is it? That's what this topic is all about. To receive an answer from a mod, who knows for sure.
Because I always check things via the pre-game editor and I have noticed the "Consistency", "Important Matches" and "Pressure" attributes for youngsters with high potential. And yes, it's high for the majority of them, higher than many veterans.
 

8 minutes ago, Cal585 said:

I mean, the perceived draw backs of playing a young, talented player over a reliable, solid veteran is that the young player will be inconsistent while he matures and gains a better understanding of the game and that he won't handle the pressure as well in the derbies and other big games.

Exactly.

Edited by ilkork

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I think that FM does not really replicate experience as well as in real life but I do think it does a decent enough jobs with the mental attributes, in that they develop with age and continue to improve even after 30. So you can come across a 19 year old player with better technicals and physicals but chances are that a slightly worse  30 year old in the same team and position may have higher attributes for decision, concentration, anticipation etc.

So when it comes to a big game, I tend to go with the latter for defensive positions and the former for attacking positions.

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4 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Yes, but MLS is...English. It's not South America or South Europe. Different culture.
Now, put these players in Brasileirao, and let's see how they fare. You are right, they won't be able to perform well, because they won't be able to adapt.
And it's the same for 90% of South American players. They won't be able to perform in the UK, even if they speak the language, because they are used to a different football culture. One with lower tempo, more direct passing, less compact defences, less physicality.
 

The majority of S.American players can't adapt. That's the way it is, what can we do? I don't make the rules!
 

I'm not saying that experience always rules. I'm saying that, in FM, there isn't such thing to consider when buying players, or when selecting your squad for an important match. Shouldn't it be included? I mean, it exists irl, we all agree that there is a thing called "experience" and that older players have it, because they have played more, they have more appearances. And that alone is a small bonus. But no such thing in FM.

Androutsos played a lot last year, because we didn't have better options and because everybody agreed to give youth a chance. What about Manthatis, who has far better flair and dribbling than Androutsos, but wasn't involved a lot because he is inexperienced?
As for Fortounis, you are talking about our best player. Of course he will play. But Fortounis wasn't as experienced as Alejandro Dominguez who left this summer from Olympiacos. That's a fact.

The first bit I do agree on, put an Englishman in South America and he will most likely struggle because next to no-one has done that before him, but once a group of Englishmen play over there they can pass on their knowledge and help others adapt, much like what's happened with when South Americans started playing in England, and a lot of South American players are in the top tier and 2nd tier of Premier League players, such as; Ederson (Man City's and worlds most expensive goalkeeper) Nicolas Otamendi, David Luiz, Danilo, Marcos Rojo, Antonio Valencia, Manuel Lanzini, Roberto Pereyra, Alexis Sanchez, Diego Costa, Roberto Firmino, Erik Lamela, Chicharito (Yes, I know he's Mexican) and Jose Izquierdo. I think that's quite a strong and exhaustive list of South Americans who have adapted well.

In FM I guess there isn't exactly that but when you scout a player there is a thing in the report which says whether a player enjoys playing in big matches or not.

Fortounis isn't as experienced, no, but Alejandro is 36 now so is very much on his last legs so it's good to have Fortounis and hopefully in future you can give Mario Vrushaj game time, shame you sold Panagiotis Retsos though.

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24 minutes ago, Makoto Nakamura said:

The first bit I do agree on, put an Englishman in South America and he will most likely struggle because next to no-one has done that before him, but once a group of Englishmen play over there they can pass on their knowledge and help others adapt, much like what's happened with when South Americans started playing in England, and a lot of South American players are in the top tier and 2nd tier of Premier League players, such as; Ederson (Man City's and worlds most expensive goalkeeper) Nicolas Otamendi, David Luiz, Danilo, Marcos Rojo, Antonio Valencia, Manuel Lanzini, Roberto Pereyra, Alexis Sanchez, Diego Costa, Roberto Firmino, Erik Lamela, Chicharito (Yes, I know he's Mexican) and Jose Izquierdo. I think that's quite a strong and exhaustive list of South Americans who have adapted well.

Yes, a change is already in place, but I still think it will take many years. It's for the same reason that most players from this kind of cultures, can't adapt well to leagues such as the German, Dutch or Belgian.
And there is also a difference. Unfortunately, most S.Americans come from poor cultures, where talent alone can make you successful there, when in England you need more than that. You need to be smart, very well physically and always try to improve.

24 minutes ago, Makoto Nakamura said:

In FM I guess there isn't exactly that but when you scout a player there is a thing in the report which says whether a player enjoys playing in big matches or not.

True, it isn't exactly that.

24 minutes ago, Makoto Nakamura said:

hopefully in future you can give Mario Vrushaj game time, shame you sold Panagiotis Retsos though.

Yes, Vrushaj showed this summer that he has potential :thup:.
Man, what can we do. We are a selling club, that's our role, we can't compete with top clubs. Once the fat-man smelled the €20m he said "Here you go Leverkusen" :D.
The real shame is that we don't have a good plan regarding youth development. Some weeks ago, 15-20 youngsters signed a professional contract (all together at once), because last year Dortmund was able to sign one of our youngsters (Kabetsis) almost for nothing, because he was on a youth contract. That shows bad management...

Edited by ilkork

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

Anymore?

There are many young players like this around the world but let me put it this way.   Assume that you are managing a team in the Vanarama North and by a quirk of fate a 16 year old kid comes to your club.  He is one of those players that has the potential to truly be something special if he gets the right coaching.  He plays in the same position as Fred the local butcher who gives you a great deal on pork sausages every week and is maybe a few pounds overweight.  The kid can run rings around him.  Sure he has some rough edges and he doesn't have the experience to pick out the right ball on occasion but when he gets that piece of leather at his feet it's like watching a mini magician.  Do you play Fred the butcher in the next vital league match or do you put the kid in despite being 5 years younger?  For me Fred would be warming the bench, at least for the first hour or so as I wouldn't want to tire the kid too much.

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14 hours ago, ilkork said:

Messi is an exception, don't use him in examples mate :).

And no, most teams would pick the more experienced player in important matches. At least 90% of times.

Are you speaking from direct experience or just talking out of your ass? Because your Logic isnt making much sense here.

Managers pick the best players for each game, regardless of age. All experience does is give older players higher mental attributes but it doesnt make them automatically better than young players.

I remember when Mourinho at Inter started a 17 years old Santon vs Manchester United's Ronaldo, or Conte constantly playing an unknown Pogba at Juventus and saying he doesnt look at the ID when selecting the starting 11.

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2017/08/conte--no-age-barrier-.html

But surely you must know the game better than Conte. :rolleyes:

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There are some hidden attributes that "emulate" experience in FM.
For example the "important matches" attribute.

I do agree with the OP. Experince should matter more in FM, but i think the inly solution for this is to tone down a little bit the regens that appear in the game.

After 4 or 5 seasons it's far to easy to built a CL win team with a starting XI under 23 or 24 yo. IRL that would be almost impossible,

The reason for this i think is related with the development of regens, with their attributes increasing too soon. 

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2 hours ago, BigRoboCrouch said:

Are you speaking from direct experience or just talking out of your ass? Because your Logic isnt making much sense here.

You go manage a club IRL, use the "17y old Santon" and let's see how you do.
Fired before Christmas...
 

 

2 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

I do agree with the OP. Experince should matter more in FM, but i think the inly solution for this is to tone down a little bit the regens that appear in the game.

Thank you. Well, regens are already toned down. I mean, I've been b....ng about the regen attribute distribution for a long time.

2 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

After 4 or 5 seasons it's far to easy to built a CL win team with a starting XI under 23 or 24 yo. IRL that would be almost impossible

Exactly!

 

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

You go manage a club IRL, use the "17y old Santon" and let's see how you do.
Fired before Christmas...
 

 

Thank you. Well, regens are already toned down. I mean, I've been b....ng about the regen attribute distribution for a long time.

Exactly!

 

I used Mourinho and Conte as examples of why you are talking out your ass, and that's all you can come up with?

 

P.S. If 4-5 seasons in you can make a CL win team made of under 24yo you should stop using genie scout.

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1 minute ago, BigRoboCrouch said:

I used Mourinho and Conte as examples of why you are talking out your ass, and that's all you can come up with?

The problem is that you think than only Mourinho and Conte exist in this world and you can only give examples based on them.
Well, guess what, there are over 150 nations with leagues, and let me tell you, most managers IRL will use the more experienced player in an important match and the promising youngster in easier matches. At least 90% of times.

4 minutes ago, BigRoboCrouch said:

P.S. If 4-5 seasons in you can make a CL win team made of under 24yo you should stop using genie scout.

No, personally I can't, because I manage Olympiacos in Greece.
What I can do though is to make a very good team of under 26-27y old players that can reach the latter stages in CL and dominate in Greece. When IRL, this thing would be impossible.
What's genie scout have to do with it?
What's your opinion on the fact that most FM players try to have as a young squad as possible (including me) and don't really care about a 30y old guy who is more experienced than a 20y old?
What's your opinion on the fact that "experience" is not depicted as it should?

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6 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Should experience matter more?  Debatable.  I can see both sides.  Should young players never have good hidden attributes and so can only develop with match experience?  Personally I'd say no because that would then preclude any young players being able to perform well at a high level when of course there are plenty of real life examples that do just that.

 

Again, this where the "wonderkid" comes in.

Of course a wonderkid, that could turn into Messi or CR7 in the future should have good hidden attributes from the start. But this should be rare cases, and even in this cases they should start with attributes not very high.

IMO, the large majoraty of young players should have low attributes for important matches, consistency and pressure. And in time, with training and matchday experience this attributes would increase, and reach their full potential later in their carreer.

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4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Should experience matter more?  Debatable.  I can see both sides.  Should young players never have good hidden attributes and so can only develop with match experience?  Personally I'd say no because that would then preclude any young players being able to perform well at a high level when of course there are plenty of real life examples that do just that.

Finally. Very glad a mod replied :thup:.

No, I'm not saying it should matter more than everything else. I'm saying, experience alone should be a small bonus (% in the code) for players over 30y old who have a lot of appearances, played in important matches and can handle situations better than a fresh youngster. That way, we won't always try to sign as many youngsters as we can and FM will be more balanced than it is now.
Because, let's be honest. Most FM users (including me) don't rely on experienced veterans, but try to sign as many youngsters as we can.

I was checking the average ages for the top 5 leagues in Europe, from a quick search (taken from this):
59e5fdafa872e_averageages.thumb.PNG.8a2a1895542f9223a118aed3848eb1bd.PNG

Number 25 (Villarreal) has an average of 26.42y.
You can understand that, the 75 other teams in the top 5 leagues have an average age of over 27y old.

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