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Forged In Steel - Ideas

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4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Some great ideas there Cleon :thup:.

A couple of other potential ideas:

1)  The Target Man.  We see very little written about this other than "big and strong, players punt the ball to him" when in reality it doesn't necessarily always play out like that.  For example, I've quite happily used a TM in a more possession focused system and even different types of "Target Man", from the big strong stereotype to the smaller more technical type of player.  It's linked into your using different players in the same role ideas.

2)  Building on Youth development and how much you love doing this, it might be an interesting twist to use a club in a country which has "B" teams as separate clubs (eg., Spain, Germany) rather than countries that employ reserve teams instead.  Especially if such B teams are in non-playable leagues.

3)  Revisiting archived articles, bringing them up to date and to a new audience.  There is a lot of great archived material linked at the top of this forum which I love reading through and finding inspiration from.  Not only from yourself but also from others such as S Fraser going back as far as FM08.

Hell, I might even have to start a blog myself ;).

Cheers :)

There's always a home for you and anyone else who wants to write who doesn't currently have a blog over on mine. More the merrier and all that :)

1 - I glad you mentioned the TM as its something I do plan on writing about and funnily enough the idea is for writing about a poacher type player who plays the role as its something I do frequent. This article might become more complex though because depending on how I play I might have to alter the supply and support from what I normally use. So it won't be complex to read but will be for me setting it up but I think that's a good think as it shows you you can adapt to different roles and to highlight a few different ways you can provide the player with the ball based on how you want to utilise the TM. After all, he can be anything you want like you pointed out with the more technical player.

2 - It could be a good idea, I'll have to see what clubs come up.

3 - I often read the older threads, especially the SFraser stuff, he was a good friend of mine. I might pay homage to him and bring his work/principles up to date and show how principles never really change regardless of how the game evolves. It would be great to write something about his work for the newer people and those who were fans of his and show how it all works in the here and now.

Some good idea, thanks :)

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36 minutes ago, Cleon said:

show how principles never really change regardless of how the game evolves.

This :thup:.

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54 minutes ago, herne79 said:

1)  The Target Man.  We see very little written about this other than "big and strong, players punt the ball to him" when in reality it doesn't necessarily always play out like that.  For example, I've quite happily used a TM in a more possession focused system and even different types of "Target Man", from the big strong stereotype to the smaller more technical type of player.  It's linked into your using different players in the same role ideas.

Yes please - I asked a few questions about the wide target man this season and the consensus was pretty much "haven't used one". I never had time to really build a tactic around one to see the full extent of their capability. This role tends to flit in and out of the English football and often used as an impact change to affect matches late on (possibly as it isn't the trendiest style of football). In theory it should be very effective - diagonal long range passes to find a mismatch of target man vs smaller fullback. Or as Herne says, move away from the big & strong TM, and see if the WTM can be a Ramdeuter type with extra ball attraction.

 

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Yes, a video explanation about Target Man and Wide Target Man would be great, I think these are two roles that are often discarded because you need some particular players around them. Another idea (this is not too much related to tactic) is to make some video explanation about what TIs/PIs does in game, I think it could be very very helpful to non expert players and also it can clarify some doubts about instruction like "Move into channels" which is often not understood by players. 

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The Poacher/Target Man hybrid sounds very interesting to me and actually something I experimented with in the past with some success (see link below) so I'd be very interested in your tactical interpretation of this role and strategy :thup:

 

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I like the sound of your ideas. I particularly like the bit about developing players that offer something different to the same role.

One thing I did think of was showing how you build a tactic from the very beginning. I know you've done threads like that before and you always have a plan in mind from the offset but what if you didn't have a plan? Say someone suggests a formation and a rough idea of how they'd like it to play and you could demonstrate either why the idea wouldn't work or why it would and how you'd go about doing it, what tweaks you'd make, what you'd look for in game etc.

Hope that makes sense - read it back and I'm not sure it does!

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8 minutes ago, macca7292 said:

I like the sound of your ideas. I particularly like the bit about developing players that offer something different to the same role.

One thing I did think of was showing how you build a tactic from the very beginning. I know you've done threads like that before and you always have a plan in mind from the offset but what if you didn't have a plan? Say someone suggests a formation and a rough idea of how they'd like it to play and you could demonstrate either why the idea wouldn't work or why it would and how you'd go about doing it, what tweaks you'd make, what you'd look for in game etc.

Hope that makes sense - read it back and I'm not sure it does!

Already did one with an idea and one without, one was 2014 and the other 2015 iirc and posted them on here.

I'm looking for new ideas rather than rehashing the same boring content and going over the same ground year after year. I'd rather focus on new content that no-one has covered yet :)

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@Cleon

I cant wait another minute to read any analysis of you about fm18 or anything

one thing I would like to see, if possible, would be the classic Dutch 433 with crosses from the 2 wings to a poacher, I have never got it, I hope someday you can write about it

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38 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Already did one with an idea and one without, one was 2014 and the other 2015 iirc and posted them on here.

I'm looking for new ideas rather than rehashing the same boring content and going over the same ground year after year. I'd rather focus on new content that no-one has covered yet :)

No worries, must have missed those!

How about on the target man theme above a traditional English 442 with wingers, target man and poacher?

I like Herne's suggestion of revisiting old articles and bringing them up to date. I still refer to S Fraser's youth development thread and I think his striker ppm thread is still valid.

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Cleon,

I would like to see you show how playing styles can be achieved using different approaches. For example, in your Art Of Series, you showed us how to build a Possession tactic using Very Structured Shape, Control Mentality with 4-1-2-2-1 formation and certain roles (DM-S, BBM-S, RPM-S, AP-S, F9-S). I would like to see you build a possession tactic with a completely different approach - different shape, formation, mentality, roles, etc. 

I think whenever you, Rashidi, O-zil, herne, etc., show a successfully working tactic, most people assume that is the only way to play or achieve that style/success. You guys keep talking that is just a lesson and there are different ways to achieve the same styles and concepts. I think it will be interesting to see popular playing styles (possession, counter-attacking, attacking, defensive, geggenpressing, etc.) developed and achieved in different ways, with different approaches.

What do you think about that?

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24 minutes ago, yonko said:

Cleon,

I would like to see you show how playing styles can be achieved using different approaches. For example, in your Art Of Series, you showed us how to build a Possession tactic using Very Structured Shape, Control Mentality with 4-1-2-2-1 formation and certain roles (DM-S, BBM-S, RPM-S, AP-S, F9-S). I would like to see you build a possession tactic with a completely different approach - different shape, formation, mentality, roles, etc. 

I think whenever you, Rashidi, O-zil, herne, etc., show a successfully working tactic, most people assume that is the only way to play or achieve that style/success. You guys keep talking that is just a lesson and there are different ways to achieve the same styles and concepts. I think it will be interesting to see popular playing styles (possession, counter-attacking, attacking, defensive, geggenpressing, etc.) developed and achieved in different ways, with different approaches.

What do you think about that?

Makes sense and is something I will be doing. The 352 I’m using for example is a different 352 to the one I recently wrote about in the 352 Chronicles. It shows a different way to play it and another style, so this is a good start as people will be able to see both articles and see just how different they are yet hopefully yield the same success.

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2 hours ago, Cleon said:

Makes sense and is something I will be doing. The 352 I’m using for example is a different 352 to the one I recently wrote about in the 352 Chronicles. It shows a different way to play it and another style, so this is a good start as people will be able to see both articles and see just how different they are yet hopefully yield the same success.

I think this will be an example of using the same formation for different style.

I was thinking more the opposite - same style achieved with different formation, shape, roles, etc. 

In FM18 we will have 4 new roles and I heard that some of the existing ones may be revised a little (hopefully the False9 doesn't shoot as often and doesn't drift into channels). Plus I'm sure there will be some refinements in the ME overall - here I'm hoping that the HB role mechanism splits the CBs wider in a back 4 formations. So I was thinking that it will be very educational for all of us to see how the new roles and the existing roles could be used in different ways to achieve the same styles of play as in your The Art Of....series.

I keep going to the possession style you showcased in FM16 with Swansea, cause this is my favorite style of play (Barca fan, Pep Guardiola fan as well). It was very educational to see the combination of formation, shape, mentality, roles and instructions. I wonder if you could show a different combination of formation, shape, mentality, roles and instructions to achieve possession football. 

Just like IRL Guardiola hasn't used the same tactic to achieve his possession style at Barca, at Bayern and now at Man City. His principles are the same - control the ball, dictate the game, pressure to recover the ball, attack and create chances., defender the counter-attack, etc. But he has achieved it, I believe, in different ways, with different roles, instructions, etc. 

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6 hours ago, yonko said:

I think this will be an example of using the same formation for different style.

I was thinking more the opposite - same style achieved with different formation, shape, roles, etc. 

In FM18 we will have 4 new roles and I heard that some of the existing ones may be revised a little (hopefully the False9 doesn't shoot as often and doesn't drift into channels). Plus I'm sure there will be some refinements in the ME overall - here I'm hoping that the HB role mechanism splits the CBs wider in a back 4 formations. So I was thinking that it will be very educational for all of us to see how the new roles and the existing roles could be used in different ways to achieve the same styles of play as in your The Art Of....series.

I keep going to the possession style you showcased in FM16 with Swansea, cause this is my favorite style of play (Barca fan, Pep Guardiola fan as well). It was very educational to see the combination of formation, shape, mentality, roles and instructions. I wonder if you could show a different combination of formation, shape, mentality, roles and instructions to achieve possession football. 

Just like IRL Guardiola hasn't used the same tactic to achieve his possession style at Barca, at Bayern and now at Man City. His principles are the same - control the ball, dictate the game, pressure to recover the ball, attack and create chances., defender the counter-attack, etc. But he has achieved it, I believe, in different ways, with different roles, instructions, etc. 

The 352 will be possession or very attacking football, in the first article it wasn't. I just haven't decided which style I prefer yet but I'm leaning towards possession football myself. So that would showcase how to achieve it with a 352, which would be very different from what I did with the Swansea article. It'll also be more in depth as it'll handle what happens with the style when you get promoted and how you don't have to stray from your ideas just because you're not playing in a better league. It will also explore why I won't use certain roles in this set up and show what happens when I alter the roles, hopefully it will show how the dynamics change with-in the system. What I'm hoping is it'll be a complete series and focus on every aspect of this formation. I'll even be showing what happens when I face all the different styles of football and different shapes. Showing how this might impact the football I play and discussing why.

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55 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The 352 will be possession or very attacking football, in the first article it wasn't. I just haven't decided which style I prefer yet but I'm leaning towards possession football myself. So that would showcase how to achieve it with a 352, which would be very different from what I did with the Swansea article. It'll also be more in depth as it'll handle what happens with the style when you get promoted and how you don't have to stray from your ideas just because you're not playing in a better league. It will also explore why I won't use certain roles in this set up and show what happens when I alter the roles, hopefully it will show how the dynamics change with-in the system. What I'm hoping is it'll be a complete series and focus on every aspect of this formation. I'll even be showing what happens when I face all the different styles of football and different shapes. Showing how this might impact the football I play and discussing why.

That sounds exciting! Do you plan to do that with other formations?

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5 minutes ago, yonko said:

That sounds exciting! Do you plan to do that with other formations?

It depends as I'll be writing from my long term save, which I don't usually do. I normally create new saves just to write about tactical stuff usually. If I change clubs though I suspect I'll change styles and tactics though.

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Another vote here for an old style 4-4-2 with two out and out attacking wingers.  It's a style I have tried to recreate in every FM since FM12 but failed.  It is in full part due to the fact that i'm not the best with FM tactics and have openly admitted (not complained I may add...) that I struggle to decypher the Tactics Creator into what I want.

It would be interesting to see how someone who is excellent at creating tactics gets on with something like this.

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10 hours ago, Cleon said:

It depends as I'll be writing from my long term save, which I don't usually do. I normally create new saves just to write about tactical stuff usually. If I change clubs though I suspect I'll change styles and tactics though.

I remember that is what you used to do before on older FMs - long term saves with the Blades and writing tactical threads. I think eventually you will get bored and would want to write about something different. It will be cool to see you manage in Italy's Seria A where opponents use various tactical set ups and formations. I believe it would be a nice challenge for you and interesting tactical journey for all of us to follow it.

I'm personally interested in your take on popular formations and styles, and how little subtle changes impact them. I find it educational and somewhat inspirational. But that can be said about pretty much everything you write about anyway.

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I've been trying to think of things I struggle with.

I struggle with the 4231 deep, with the 2 in the DM strata and the 3 in the M strata. I've only really had success in later stages of saves when my squad is really good and I could get away with just about anything and still win! I seem to control possession quite well but lack bite up front.

The other thing is what you could almost call "forumitis"! I doing ok with my team and formation, I'm inspired by a thread on here to try something different with a squad wholly unsuited for it. It woukd be interesting to see how you'd transition from one formation to another without massive changes to your squad.

I know you don't want to go over old ground but I always enjoyed your WM formation thread. A modern update of that would be amazing.

Let's be honest , whatever you choose to do is bound to be brilliant! Really looking forward to it. Trying to decide if I should get FM18 - I'm still on 16.

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Actually a thread dedicated to the 4-2-3-1 deep set-up (with either 2DM's and 1ML/MC/MR or 2DM's and 1AML/AMC/AMR) would be awesome to read about. I agree that it replicates most real life systems better, but I always struggle gettin it to work properly and I don't think there's much written about it.

Obviously I have to agree with others on as long as we have Cleon's threads to read, whichever the topic/format they may have, we are in for a treat! :)

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17 hours ago, Cleon said:

The 352 will be possession or very attacking football, in the first article it wasn't. I just haven't decided which style I prefer yet but I'm leaning towards possession football myself. So that would showcase how to achieve it with a 352, which would be very different from what I did with the Swansea article. It'll also be more in depth as it'll handle what happens with the style when you get promoted and how you don't have to stray from your ideas just because you're not playing in a better league. It will also explore why I won't use certain roles in this set up and show what happens when I alter the roles, hopefully it will show how the dynamics change with-in the system. What I'm hoping is it'll be a complete series and focus on every aspect of this formation. I'll even be showing what happens when I face all the different styles of football and different shapes. Showing how this might impact the football I play and discussing why.

One thing that I would find interesting and helpful would be one (or two, if necessary) article on what changes you would make to change your possession 352 to an attacking 352, even if the majority of your time and articles are spend on the possession 352.

Regardless of whether you choose to do that or not, I look forward to your articles.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the community.

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Hello Cleon

The things I would like to see from tactical point of view

1. Developing a move against different formations and mentailties.

2. Controlling the game once you get the lead.

3. Set piece arrrangements

 

From training point of view

1. general training effects on various settings and durations in long term.

2. Developing a youngster with high potential (I still struggle in it despite tutoring and starting games week in and out)

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8 hours ago, kev_portland said:

One thing that I would find interesting and helpful would be one (or two, if necessary) article on what changes you would make to change your possession 352 to an attacking 352, even if the majority of your time and articles are spend on the possession 352.

Regardless of whether you choose to do that or not, I look forward to your articles.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the community.

I would be interested in this too.

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Some good suggestions so far, keep them coming. Remember though I'm looking for new ideas and this is my long-term saved game I'll be playing here so I'll not be changing tactics much at all unless I move clubs.

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10 hours ago, Cleon said:

Some good suggestions so far, keep them coming. Remember though I'm looking for new ideas and this is my long-term saved game I'll be playing here so I'll not be changing tactics much at all unless I move clubs.

Understood.  My thinking was a brief article with changes and thoughts behind them, but maybe that isn't in line with what you're looking to do.  :-)

Looking forward to reading your stuff, as always.

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12 minutes ago, kev_portland said:

Understood.  My thinking was a brief article with changes and thoughts behind them, but maybe that isn't in line with what you're looking to do.  :-)

Looking forward to reading your stuff, as always.

Your suggestion was fine mate and no doubt will definitely be covered :)

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As much as i like your tactical pieces (looking foward to see your approach of the new roles), I would like to see more articles about player development, like the Meet the... Series you did.

I especially liked the one about the deep lying foward, where you took a natural full-back(IIRC) and turned him to a striker solely based on his attributes. That type of outside of the box thinking is really interesting and keeps the game fresh.

Since you mentioned playing a 352 possession, maybe also give us a little insight on how you develop the youth to fit that playstyle.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your knowledge of the game and help us do better.

I'm sure the articles will be fun and insightful as they always have been.

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11 hours ago, forlegaizen said:

As much as i like your tactical pieces (looking foward to see your approach of the new roles), I would like to see more articles about player development, like the Meet the... Series you did.

I especially liked the one about the deep lying foward, where you took a natural full-back(IIRC) and turned him to a striker solely based on his attributes. That type of outside of the box thinking is really interesting and keeps the game fresh.

Since you mentioned playing a 352 possession, maybe also give us a little insight on how you develop the youth to fit that playstyle.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your knowledge of the game and help us do better.

I'm sure the articles will be fun and insightful as they always have been.

All this will be covered yeah, especially the recruitment and development of players to play the system. :) This will heavily be wrote about all throughout and be one of the underlining themes running through the articles. 

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29 minutes ago, Cleon said:

All this will be covered yeah, especially the recruitment and development of players to play the system. :) This will heavily be wrote about all throughout and be one of the underlining themes running through the articles. 

To add, maybe something that shows the type of football/tactic you're working towards, but don't have the players etc for yet. So with the current squad, show what you do with them tactically as it suits them, but how you work toward that goal of implementing a certain system.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

To add, maybe something that shows the type of football/tactic you're working towards, but don't have the players etc for yet. So with the current squad, show what you do with them tactically as it suits them, but how you work toward that goal of implementing a certain system.

A bit like I did with the Arsenal Invincible stuff I wrote? I can do this yeah, I think this will probably tie in with recruitment/development side of things. Especially for how I build tactics these days, it's more about the players and the attributes rather than TI'S/PI's for me. But yeah, I'll be sure to cover this extensively. 

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2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

A bit like I did with the Arsenal Invincible stuff I wrote? I can do this yeah, I think this will probably tie in with recruitment/development side of things. Especially for how I build tactics these days, it's more about the players and the attributes rather than TI'S/PI's for me. But yeah, I'll be sure to cover this extensively. 

I think I missed that article. Will look it up.

But yes, it'd probably be more of a recruitment and development thing more than tactical. You delve deeper into development than most, I think and it's not something that gets written about enough (around the community, I mean). So seeing how you especially think about young players and what you're aiming for them in development terms and out of the box thinking like turning that left back (iirc) into a forward, is great stuff. Personally I'd be far more interested in that than anything tactically.

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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I think I missed that article. Will look it up.

But yes, it'd probably be more of a recruitment and development thing more than tactical. You delve deeper into development than most, I think and it's not something that gets written about enough (around the community, I mean). So seeing how you especially think about young players and what you're aiming for them in development terms and out of the box thinking like turning that left back (iirc) into a forward, is great stuff. Personally I'd be far more interested in that than anything tactically.

This is definetly the sort of stuff I'll be writing about, the stuff that is ignored/not wrote about much. That side of the game is much more interesting and its more enjoyable to write about.

In the Invincible stuff I did, because it was a particular style it was heavily player/ppm dependant. So I showed how I started and how I'd be developing with the end goal in mind. Then I revisited it 3 years down the line and showed how we was closer to the style I wanted etc. It was very much a long term series of articles showing the whole process from start to finish.

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9 hours ago, Cleon said:

After some consideration from what people have said, I think I will do a standalone article (as it doesn't fit with what I'll be doing) sometime after FM18 is released that discusses the 4-2-3-1. Too many people struggle with this formation and I always get lots of requests to write about it but I find it a boring formation. However I will write about it but it'll be separate to what I've mentioned in this thread. In fact I'll kill two birds with one stone with the stand alone article, I'll discuss the 4-2-3-1 and make it about an attacking possession tactic. Best of both worlds then. No time scale on it, but it'll be not that long after FM18 is released.

This should be very interesting indeed. Is this going to be the standard 4231 wide - 2 MCs, AMR, AML, AMC variant? Or will it be the one you like with the 2 DMCs and other variants?

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34 minutes ago, yonko said:

This should be very interesting indeed. Is this going to be the standard 4231 wide - 2 MCs, AMR, AML, AMC variant? Or will it be the one you like with the 2 DMCs and other variants?

Probably be the deep version and I'll explain to people why its superior and nothing changes when attacking, it's all about how you defend in the deep one. Which makes it superior. 

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Quite surprised you've decided to do an article on 4231, glad it is gonna be the deep one, something i never seem to get quite right compared to the flat.

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2 hours ago, Cleon said:

Probably be the deep version and I'll explain to people why its superior and nothing changes when attacking, it's all about how you defend in the deep one. Which makes it superior. 

DMs with Support Duties? I would go DM-S and DLP-S or RGA or RPM depending on the playmaker I have and the players around him. The defending is superior because the players defend naturally from deeper position even with support duties, especially when using more structured shape, which I know you prefer traditionally. I can already kind of guess what you will go with, but I'm sure you will have a surprise/revelation or two.....

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What I would like to be discussed about are applying tactical principles and patterns of play, rather than discussing about formations. I am referring to ideas I found in excellent guide 'Lines and Diamonds' by THOG, rarely discussed here. What I would like to know is what kind of attributes are required to implement specific patterns (combination, third man, rotational runs,..) and how to apply them.

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5 hours ago, Cleon said:

Probably be the deep version and I'll explain to people why its superior and nothing changes when attacking, it's all about how you defend in the deep one. Which makes it superior. 

Excellent! Really looking forward to it

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10 hours ago, yonko said:

DMs with Support Duties? I would go DM-S and DLP-S or RGA or RPM depending on the playmaker I have and the players around him. The defending is superior because the players defend naturally from deeper position even with support duties, especially when using more structured shape, which I know you prefer traditionally. I can already kind of guess what you will go with, but I'm sure you will have a surprise/revelation or two.....

Just to be awkward I'm not going to use any of the role combinations or the settings you mention just to make it more interesting :D

I'll be writing about it from a practical point of view rather than my own preference (apart from the actual shape 2 DMC's) to make it more universal and easy to people to implement some version of it in their own saves :)

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Hey, long time reader but I don't really post as much as I should. That being said have you thought about maybe showing how a football ideal such as how Bielsa uses a set philosophy of how football should play but changing his starting formations and so on dependant on the opposition. Would that be something you would be interested in doing? Maybe building different formations around a certain style instead of a set formation with different styles and showing how you can build a flexible team like that?

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I know I would! :D Also curious to see what you mean by "being to cautious". As an usual reader of your threads I got the idea you don't really adapt your playing style prior to the match and only change things if you spot something's not right in the match

 

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Interesting on the changing players to different roles as I had an idea about trying to change James Ward-Prowse into an alternative wing-back, one more in the style of a Beckham style winger who would cross from deeper and whip earlier balls in as an alternative to the more traditional style wing back with pace and dribbling who gets up and down the line. 

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I would love to see an article about that. I usually play cautious because I am the underdog but sometimes I think it would be better to lose all respect and kick opponent's @$$.

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Hi Cleon. My third formation is a direct 3-1-4-2 and I find it very exciting to watch. It's an absolute Hail Mary of a system for my team and the players I have - I love the anarchy of it!

My question is: Do you ever rip it up and start again? I'd like to see what your go-to is when the Blades' possession 3-5-2 just isn't doing the business in a game that you have to win

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35 minutes ago, Diego Imposta said:

Hi Cleon. My third formation is a direct 3-1-4-2 and I find it very exciting to watch. It's an absolute Hail Mary of a system for my team and the players I have - I love the anarchy of it!

My question is: Do you ever rip it up and start again? I'd like to see what your go-to is when the Blades' possession 3-5-2 just isn't doing the business in a game that you have to win

The other thread is open now :)

But I'd not change away from my approach ever, if its not working then I'll fix it rather than do something drastic and switch formations and go against everything I've just been building towards for whatever period of time. Things don't break for no reason and they can always be fixed.

@herne79 Could you please close this now the other is open please :)

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