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Football Manager TV: Tactics

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Just now, El Payaso said:

Use a different role then. 

That's what I'm trying to say. There isn't any other ball magnet in the AM area.

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Besides, a player's attributes, personality, and PPMs (if he has any) are also just as important as the role you've given him. Pogba, for example, starts with 18 for long shots along with 19 flair and 18 technique, it's quite clear he'll ignore the shoots less often instruction more frequently than someone whose attributes are much lower in that role. 

There's so much more to how a player performs than their position and role. 

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3 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Well yes, but the beta isn't even out yet, how on earth can you 'raise concerns' on something you've only seen a handful of 5 minute videos on and never played yourself? 

As is so often said, if you're unsure about it, wait for the demo, try that and then you're in a far better position to (constructively) 'raise concerns'. 

However, it's an open forum, so everyone has the right to post whatever they want, within the house rules, so fill yer boots. 

It's called experience over many years of playing CM & FM.  Couple that with the fact that Si wait until the pre-order bonus is coming to an end before drip feeding us the new details.  Then add on the fact that they raised the price so that the pre-order bonus looked like a good deal in the first place and it doesn't take much imagination to react in a negative manner to what amounts to more of the same with legitimate user feedback ignored again.  I didn't buy the game last year ( first time since Eidos published CM ) and to be honest it doesn't look like I will be buying it this year either, because at the moment it looks like 90% preparation & 10% actually playing the game.  Some people like to pour over spreadsheets and that's fine.  If you are one of those people then more power to you.  I want to play a video game and have fun, not spend all of my time trying to appease virtual babies and running the risk of a wrong word completely effing up the team.

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Guest El Payaso
1 minute ago, ilkork said:

That's what I'm trying to say. There isn't any other ball magnet in the AM area.

I believe that on FM he will see enough of the ball even without being a ball magnet. :D And you always have the option to teach him the 'shoots from the distance' player trait. 

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1 minute ago, eric1000 said:

I I want to play a video game and have fun, not spend all of my time trying to appease virtual babies and running the risk of a wrong word completely effing up the team.

That's exactly why the 'Classic' edition of the game was created back in FM13,  You have the choice to immerse yourself in the full game, but if that's not for you, and all you want to do is zip through a season picking the team/tactic and buy/sell players, then there's a mode for that too. In fact, just started an FMT save with Sampdoria last night to get a quick season in before the Beta comes out. It's great that SI have catered for both audiences, despite many people turning their noses up to it 

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15 minutes ago, ilkork said:

No ****, really? I didn't know that SI decides what's football. Let's give the "Shoot Less Often" PI to players like Pogba, Coutinho, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Rivaldo. Because SI says so.

 

14 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Use a different role then: like for example just a plain centre midfielder and freely modify it yourself. 

Use offensive midfielder and put all the PIs you want.

 

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Guest El Payaso
3 minutes ago, ilkork said:

No, I don't want him to have a heavier workload.
I don't know how to say this in English. All these are not the fix to the problem. They are workarounds, that don't entirely fix the main problem.

You know that I'm right, it's not just me. Let me quote one of the best posts in the entire forum:

 

I agree on some of those like for example a CM(D) in a 4-4-1-1 system where he is supposed to be the 'holding midfielder' and I did complain about that during FM 2017 as 4-4-1-1 used to be one of those formations I liked to use. But I mainly spoke about those highly specific roles such as Enganche and Trequartista and on those exceptions it's highly understandable and good thing that you cannot modify them. 

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Just now, apvmoreira said:

 

Use offensive midfielder and put all the PIs you want.

 

Jesus... We said earlier, THE ATTACKING MIDFIELDER ISN'T A BALL MAGNET.

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Because an ap should not shoot often? he's a playmaker, he wants the ball to make assist to his team mates. this is his main work. if you want a player who mainly try to score, then he's not a playmaker

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2 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Jesus... We said earlier, THE ATTACKING MIDFIELDER ISN'T A BALL MAGNET.

If you don't use playmakers as central mids, it can, i've used in 17 with great success, using a 4222 tactic, emulating Brazilian football

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Just now, pauso said:

Because an ap should not shoot often? he's a playmaker, he wants the ball to make assist to his team mates. this is his main work. if you want a player who mainly try to score, then he's not a playmaker

Really? Go say that to Pogba...

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Just now, apvmoreira said:

If you don't use playmakers as central mids, it can, i've used in 17 with great success, using a 4222 tactic, emulating Brazilian football

I use an Advanced playmaker in the AM area.

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3 minutes ago, ilkork said:

You know that I'm right,

Only you aren't. You just don't understand the bigger picture of what's involved in how a player works in a team. The locked in PI's of an advanced playmaker are simply a template of how an AP will work within the confines of the role itself. If you have an AP with high finishing, composure, decisions, long shots etc and play him in an attacking strata of the pitch, he WILL shoot when given the chance. 

So, the problem isn't taking away a PI from a player, it's finding the RIGHT player to play the role the way you want it to. 

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Just now, ilkork said:

I use an Advanced playmaker in the AM area.

 

You've said that earlier, but on his back what are the roles?

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2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Only you aren't. You just don't understand the bigger picture of what's involved in how a player works in a team. The locked in PI's of an advanced playmaker are simply a template of how an AP will work within the confines of the role itself. If you have an AP with high finishing, composure, decisions, long shots etc and play him in an attacking strata of the pitch, he WILL shoot when given the chance. 

So, the problem isn't taking away a PI from a player, it's finding the RIGHT player to play the role the way you want it to. 

Yes, okay, I'm wrong. So is Noikeee.
Let's just leave it here...
 

1 minute ago, apvmoreira said:

You've said that earlier, but on his back what are the roles?

BWM-D and BBM-S. What's your point?
Look mate, I don't have a problem with my tactic. My tactic is very good. I have a problem as to why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for the Advanced Playmaker.

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Just now, ilkork said:

I have a problem as to why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for the Advanced Playmaker.

**Bangs head off wall***

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39 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's exactly why the 'Classic' edition of the game was created back in FM13,  You have the choice to immerse yourself in the full game, but if that's not for you, and all you want to do is zip through a season picking the team/tactic and buy/sell players, then there's a mode for that too. In fact, just started an FMT save with Sampdoria last night to get a quick season in before the Beta comes out. It's great that SI have catered for both audiences, despite many people turning their noses up to it 

FMT is still looked down upon, no idea why anyone who bemoans the depth of full sim mode & wants to relive the less demanding days of past CM/FM experiences would not play FMT, the only reason I can think of is the lack of an editor & that IMHO has to be a number 1 priority as it coudl see more angry at sim mode players move to the game mode which already provides the experience they want.

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

That's what I'm trying to say. There isn't any other ball magnet in the AM area.

Yes there are.  The Trequartista and Enganche are both playmaker "ball magnets" available at AMC.

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1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Yes there are.  The Trequartista and Enganche are both playmaker "ball magnets" available at AMC.

1 hour ago, ilkork said:

Ok, let me choose Enganche:
-Close Down Much Less? Why?
-Not being able to add Move Into Channels? Why?
-Not being able to add Hold Up Ball? Why?

Ok, let me choose Trequartista:
-Ease Off Tackles? Why?
-Fewer Risky Passes? Why?
-Roam From Position? No, I just want him to Move Into Channels.


You see Herne? All these make no sense to me and leave me dissatisfied.

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6 hours ago, Kcinnay said:

And that aside: a fluid team shape doesn't/(didn't?) make strikers fall back to midfield in the defensive phase, like some users want, like a lot of manager irl make them do.

you can now make strikers fall back to the midfield in the defensive phase with the new PI option where you can tell your striker to mark a specific position (around 3:50 in the video).

before we can only mark specific players, now we can still do that but also mark a specific position.

still not perfect i know but it's getting there. i too hate my forward stuck in the center circle 98% of the game no matter the role/mentality/shape. it was common 15 years ago but not in today's game.

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Guest El Payaso
11 minutes ago, Barside said:

FMT is still looked down upon, no idea why anyone who bemoans the depth of full sim mode & wants to relive the less demanding days of past CM/FM experiences would not play FMT, the only reason I can think of is the lack of an editor & that IMHO has to be a number 1 priority as it coudl see more angry at sim mode players move to the game mode which already provides the experience they want.

I really don't understand why people complain about the depth that the game has and the time that some parts consume. 

Like for example tactically you can make things really simple for yourself and create three tactics tailored to your team's needs in less than three minutes. Also people have had years to study how the roles and instructions work. That is not tough or time consuming at all. And being tactically successful on FM doesn't even require a lot of football knowledge. 

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This is fun but I do agree with @ilkork the AP role shouldn't have a Shoot Less Often PI locked in. The only way around that is either PPMs or a standard AM with modified PIs but then you lose the ball magnet...

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

Ok, let me choose Enganche:
-Close Down Much Less? Why?
-Not being able to add Move Into Channels? Why?
-Not being able to add Hold Up Ball? Why?

Ok, let me choose Trequartista:
-Ease Off Tackles? Why?
-Fewer Risky Passes? Why?
-Roam From Position? No, I just want him to Move Into Channels.


You see Herne? All these make no sense to me and leave me dissatisfied.

Might be an idea if you recheck the hard coded PIs of the TQ.  He has More Risky Passes and Move into Channels set, so the only thing missing from your wish list is tackling (which makes sense as the role is based on players such as Totti or Riquelme).  And you can even get round that (to an extent) by using a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate.  And/or set a TI to get stuck in (although that will affect everyone of course, not just the TQ).

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1 minute ago, Jean0987654321 said:

This is fun but I do agree with @ilkork the AP role shouldn't have a Shoot Less Often PI locked in. The only way around that is either PPMs or a standard AM with modified PIs but then you lose the ball magnet...

Nonsense. A player with the correct attributes to play as a playmaker will still be a 'ball magnet' in an AM role, where you also give him playmaker PIs. 

Anyway, it's a moot point. A player with high finishing, composure, and decisions playing in with an attacking mentality will still shoot when the opportunity presents itself, regardless of the role he plays in. People pay too much attention to the specifically created roles. As I said, they are merely templates representing the typical instructions for that specific role. It's far more important to find the right player for your desired instructions. This is borne out of years of playing the game an experimenting with thousands of players/roles/positions. 

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13 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Might be an idea if you recheck the hard coded PIs of the TQ.  He has More Risky Passes and Move into Channels set, so the only thing missing from your wish list is tackling (which makes sense as the role is based on players such as Totti or Riquelme).  And you can even get round that (to an extent) by using a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate.  And/or set a TI to get stuck in (although that will affect everyone of course, not just the TQ).

Yes, you were right about the "More Risky Passes". It is added by default. However, the "Roam From Position" is also added and I don't want that. Also, I don't like the "Close Down Much Less" and "Ease Off Tackles".
And no, I don't have a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate, neither do I like the "Get Stuck In" TI.

Like I said in an earlier post, these are just workarounds that don't fix the problem. The problem is why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for a role like the Advanced Playmaker, and not just blank so that we decide what we want.

 

Trequartista.PNG

Edited by ilkork

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Just now, nie jem frytek said:

Some of you sound like you think that the best tactic ever would be 11 Messis on the pitch without a goalkeeper.

Care being more specific please?

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3 hours ago, Barside said:

More is great as it gives the AI managers more tool to create realistic & challenging tactical approaches, the last thing I ever want to see are fewer roles that have more customisation . At least not until the AI is capable of creating its own custom roles but very few people will really want to see that as that's when FM really because a test of tactical acumen.

 

Fair enough, but I maintain that, for the human player, less is more. Especially as long as tactical feedback and in-game representation of the match are as unreliable and erratic like they've been til FM17.

Maybe the new additions in FM18 (link play, weakness areas) will help, but generally speaking it's still a guessing game trying to find out why your 4* Advanced Playmaker is playing like crap despite ticking all the boxes for that role. Or whether your star AMC should be set as Trequartista, AP or AM, as the difference isn't really so noticeable... And, to be honest, the lines between roles are blurred in real life as well.

I see how AI may need all those specific roles with PIs and everything, but the human manager is often overwhelmed (and confused about terminology, as many roles aren't 100% defined, and my idea of a DLP may be different than yours or SI's...)

10 different roles for the CM position are like 10 variations of chocolate ice-cream... Appealing and fancy, but ultimately redundant. And in most cases, you'll want to go with a bigger serving of regular chocolate (in FM terms, "screw the role, I'll just buy a better player")
Not to mention, more often than not, you'll see your L2 side playing short pass as if they were Guardiola's Barça anyway...

Edited by RBKalle

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Guest El Payaso
1 minute ago, ilkork said:

Yes, you were right about the "More Risky Passes". It is added by default. However, the "Roam From Position" is also added and I don't want that. Also, I don't like the "Close Down Much Less" and "Ease Off Tackles".
And no, I don't have a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate, neither do I like the "Get Stuck In" TI.

Like I said in an earlier post, these are just workarounds that don't fix the problem. The problem is why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for a role like the Advanced Playmaker, and not just blank so that we decide what we want.

 

Trequartista.PNG

But like said: those are the instructions that make Trequartista a Trequartista. And they are based on how the role works irl and how it imitates that in the game. It's not TA anymore if you can tweak those. 

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33 minutes ago, ilkork said:


The problem is why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for a role like the Advanced Playmaker, and not just blank so that we decide what we want.

 

Have you actually been listening to a word I've said, or are you just going to repeat the same thing over and over again? 

You simply need to either be more creative with the vanilla roles in the game, or buy a player who'll fit in to the style of player you want in that position. It's really not that difficult. 

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26 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

But like said: those are the instructions that make Trequartista a Trequartista. And they are based on how the role works irl and how it imitates that in the game. It's not TA anymore if you can tweak those. 

And who said that the "Shoot Less Often" PI makes the Advanced Playmaker? Is this how this role works irl?

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I don't think there will be a major overhaul in any defending until the coders have worked out how to deal with it. From memory, the guys basically made the entirety of FM 2012 engine-wise a "gap year" where parts were significantly re-coded behind the scenes. Back then afaik without exactly making promises as to which release it would be all ready. In the end, it took the better part of two releases, and a 2012 version where nothing much had changed from prior. Given the likely complexity of the task, and based on the game's development history, I don't think we'll see a significant shift until a few versions in. If it all comes to pass -- I've argued this before, but if the game would start introducing specific micro-management of pressing zones and similar, this forum might become a funhouse. This game has probably one of most divisive (or diverse for a more positive connotation) target groups you'll find for any game. As such, you'll find plenty guys who struggle with the "common sense" tasks you're assigned to manage as is, and that's not all to do with opaque UI and documentation that probably can't hope to cope with bringing all users on a roughly level playing field.

As a side-note, I'm dissapointeed that some remarks from "experienced user/s" about apparently talks having the power to single-handedly end a run/cause a loss haven't bean dealt with. Even if that were meant to display tongue-in-cheekiness, it's cringe and continues to spread completely wrong ideas about the game works (and should work). I'll filter this all come a demo if it improves the playing experience for me. But this nonsense previously wasn't allowed to spread unaddressed, and it's all the more disappointing that it is experienced players against resorting to it.
 

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Guest El Payaso
20 minutes ago, ilkork said:

And who said that the "Shoot Less Often" PI makes the Advanced Playmaker? Is this how this role works irl?

Read the messages that @Dagenham Dave wrote and try to understand and see a bigger picture. 

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Anyone have any ideas about what would happen if you ask your player to mark a position which your opposition ends up not using? Say for example you ask your striker to mark the defensive midfielder but your opponent plays without one. It's a shame the instruction isn't clicked on in the video

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3 hours ago, wazza said:

Looking forward to this along with the other features 

Has anyone noticed on the video on the analysis section it shows regained possession and lost possession and also the location in the middle third section in both positive and negative traits - how can this be as you cannot regain and lose possession in the same pitch area. It has to be one or the other or would you read this as the players lost possession but then won it back in that section of the pitch or that it is a glitch that needs fixing for release of the beta in that it is read as that they lost / won possession overall as a team cannot have a trait of winning and losing possession. 

 

I would also hope on the squares where you are vunerable it would tell you what the weaknesses are 

I definately agree with your third paragraph. 

 

As for the second paragraph, the way I read it is that the area of the pitch is where you lose possession a lot but are good at regaining it .

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3 hours ago, eric1000 said:

It's called experience over many years of playing CM & FM.  Couple that with the fact that Si wait until the pre-order bonus is coming to an end before drip feeding us the new details.  Then add on the fact that they raised the price so that the pre-order bonus looked like a good deal in the first place and it doesn't take much imagination to react in a negative manner to what amounts to more of the same with legitimate user feedback ignored again.  I didn't buy the game last year ( first time since Eidos published CM ) and to be honest it doesn't look like I will be buying it this year either, because at the moment it looks like 90% preparation & 10% actually playing the game.  Some people like to pour over spreadsheets and that's fine.  If you are one of those people then more power to you.  I want to play a video game and have fun, not spend all of my time trying to appease virtual babies and running the risk of a wrong word completely effing up the team.

I think your 90% and 10% is a prety good reflection of real life football management, managers spend five days preparing for an hour and half match.

 

If you want to play a video game and have fun, that sounds like FIFA or PES

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9 hours ago, irish kopite said:

Hard to think of a Trequartista out wide currently playing. Two that I can think of from the past are John Barnes and John Robertson. Both had the freedom to either go down the line or cut inside so not exact examples. Robertson was definitely the playmaker in Forest's European Cup winning teams.

Give it to the fat man

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Most of you pple arguing about the hard-coded instructions probably just don't understand football well enough. Those instructions are there to make the roles what they are. Those are what define the roles. I would rather that SI put more roles in the game with hard-coded instructions that fine tune their behavior than just put more roles leaving the instructions blank. If the instructions are not there, there won't be any need for the enganche as well as the treq and AP. The instructions are what differentiates the roles. If you remove them, the roles change. 

As for the tactics improvements in the new game, decent effort. Thank God they did away with the boxes. I like the new features do far. 

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I would have preferred a specific role or PI to encourage that behaviour but a new player trait is the next best option.

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7 hours ago, RBKalle said:

 

Fair enough, but I maintain that, for the human player, less is more. Especially as long as tactical feedback and in-game representation of the match are as unreliable and erratic like they've been til FM17.

Maybe the new additions in FM18 (link play, weakness areas) will help, but generally speaking it's still a guessing game trying to find out why your 4* Advanced Playmaker is playing like crap despite ticking all the boxes for that role. Or whether your star AMC should be set as Trequartista, AP or AM, as the difference isn't really so noticeable... And, to be honest, the lines between roles are blurred in real life as well.

You’ve effectively summed it up here. SI are attempting to mimic real life so in FM just as irl what works on the tactics board just doesn’t work on the pitch & there will be times when there is no logical reason, just an acceptance that it didn’t work & it’s time to move to a new plan or player.

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It looks good and many useful new features, but I'm still a bit underwhelmed. I had hoped for a couple of things more, though I understand it might be hard to implement. I would like to see more "transitional" instructions. For instance when the team loses possession do <something>, when the team regain possession in advanced areas do <something>. This would allow us to give more tactical instructions as to how the transitional phases were to be executed. Like gegenpress. If the team loses possession full on pressing for a short while, if unsuccessful then fall back into deeper positions. Or more detailed counterattacking options. If we are getting the ball in advanced areas everyone in wide areas bomb forward to create space for a cross to our big target man.

As I stated, I get it might be hard to do, but it would give a more realistic approach to tactics, or at least the transitional phases of the play. This is, at least for me, the most lacking aspect of tactics for the moment. I'm still looking forward to play, don't get me wrong, I was just hoping for this to be implemented.

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57 minutes ago, tyro said:

A new match engine will be presented. As Miles said. It's not graphics. It's what underneath. What makes all tick.

 

Miles didn't say that at all though, what he actually said was a new *graphics* engine

 

Edited by 91427

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26 minutes ago, XaW said:

It looks good and many useful new features, but I'm still a bit underwhelmed. I had hoped for a couple of things more, though I understand it might be hard to implement. I would like to see more "transitional" instructions. For instance when the team loses possession do <something>, when the team regain possession in advanced areas do <something>. This would allow us to give more tactical instructions as to how the transitional phases were to be executed. Like gegenpress. If the team loses possession full on pressing for a short while, if unsuccessful then fall back into deeper positions. Or more detailed counterattacking options. If we are getting the ball in advanced areas everyone in wide areas bomb forward to create space for a cross to our big target man.

As I stated, I get it might be hard to do, but it would give a more realistic approach to tactics, or at least the transitional phases of the play. This is, at least for me, the most lacking aspect of tactics for the moment. I'm still looking forward to play, don't get me wrong, I was just hoping for this to be implemented.

You said it. It is an improvement, for sure. It seems like the interface is clearer now, with the ability to do more, easier.

But if one seeks to play the game in a way that mirrors real life he will be disappointed. 

The defensive part of the game is very lacking, as are things like pressing triggers, passing lanes, when to pass, where to compress play...

In short, the tactical ship has sailed, and SI is trying to play catch up in a paddle boat. 

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6 hours ago, kidthekid said:

I consider Dybala as both a playmaker and scorer at Juve. In addition, he has decent workrate and closes down players, so making him a trequartista and enganche wouldn't work.

It certainly can work.  Those attributes will just make him carry out the roles in a different type of way compared to players you'd normally associate with those roles who have very low work rate.

Roles define player behaviour, everything else (including player attributes) then modify that behaviour.  For example, in terms of on pitch performances, Carlos Tevez, with all his aggression, determination and work rate, has been the best "trequartista" I've ever used.  Not only great in attack but also ran all day long all over the pitch both defensively and offensively.  But a traditional trequartista such as Totti or Riquelme he most certainly was not.

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