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Football Manager TV: Tactics

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Just now, El Payaso said:

Use a different role then. 

That's what I'm trying to say. There isn't any other ball magnet in the AM area.

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Besides, a player's attributes, personality, and PPMs (if he has any) are also just as important as the role you've given him. Pogba, for example, starts with 18 for long shots along with 19 flair and 18 technique, it's quite clear he'll ignore the shoots less often instruction more frequently than someone whose attributes are much lower in that role. 

There's so much more to how a player performs than their position and role. 

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3 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Well yes, but the beta isn't even out yet, how on earth can you 'raise concerns' on something you've only seen a handful of 5 minute videos on and never played yourself? 

As is so often said, if you're unsure about it, wait for the demo, try that and then you're in a far better position to (constructively) 'raise concerns'. 

However, it's an open forum, so everyone has the right to post whatever they want, within the house rules, so fill yer boots. 

It's called experience over many years of playing CM & FM.  Couple that with the fact that Si wait until the pre-order bonus is coming to an end before drip feeding us the new details.  Then add on the fact that they raised the price so that the pre-order bonus looked like a good deal in the first place and it doesn't take much imagination to react in a negative manner to what amounts to more of the same with legitimate user feedback ignored again.  I didn't buy the game last year ( first time since Eidos published CM ) and to be honest it doesn't look like I will be buying it this year either, because at the moment it looks like 90% preparation & 10% actually playing the game.  Some people like to pour over spreadsheets and that's fine.  If you are one of those people then more power to you.  I want to play a video game and have fun, not spend all of my time trying to appease virtual babies and running the risk of a wrong word completely effing up the team.

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Guest El Payaso
1 minute ago, ilkork said:

That's what I'm trying to say. There isn't any other ball magnet in the AM area.

I believe that on FM he will see enough of the ball even without being a ball magnet. :D And you always have the option to teach him the 'shoots from the distance' player trait. 

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1 minute ago, eric1000 said:

I I want to play a video game and have fun, not spend all of my time trying to appease virtual babies and running the risk of a wrong word completely effing up the team.

That's exactly why the 'Classic' edition of the game was created back in FM13,  You have the choice to immerse yourself in the full game, but if that's not for you, and all you want to do is zip through a season picking the team/tactic and buy/sell players, then there's a mode for that too. In fact, just started an FMT save with Sampdoria last night to get a quick season in before the Beta comes out. It's great that SI have catered for both audiences, despite many people turning their noses up to it 

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1 minute ago, El Payaso said:

I believe that on FM he will see enough of the ball even without being a ball magnet. :D And you always have the option to teach him the 'shoots from the distance' player trait.

No, I don't want him to have a heavier workload.
I don't know how to say this in English. All these are not the fix to the problem. They are workarounds, that don't entirely fix the main problem.

You know that I'm right, it's not just me. Let me quote one of the best posts in the entire forum:

On 9/7/2017 at 20:02, noikeee said:

I'm not sure I agree with the general tone and attitude but I generally agree with the OP. Getting rid of the sliders and moving into TC concepts was one of the best things SI has done, but it shouldn't have brought together the attached restrictions on player roles and all the confusingly inter-connected things. We've been stuck with a clunky, restrictive tactical interface for years now with little progress on it. The game below is pretty good but it suffers from this layer on top.

I mean, I can make a pretty comprehensive list of ways I feel restricted in this game:

 


Roles

- Why can't I tell a DLF/S to stop playing risky passes? What if I want something that's a little more creative than a DF but not a last-pass type player like a DLF?

- Why is "close down more" locked for a CM/D? What if I just want him to stay back and hold a restrained defensive position (relative to a CM position), instead of acting like a slightly toned down version of the headless chicken role aka the BWM?

- Why is "more risky passes" locked for a DLP? What if I just want him to dictate play from deep by mostly passing sideways?

- Why are the ball magnet effects of target men and all playmaker roles un-changeable? What if I like the PIs one of the playmaker roles have, but don't want the magnet effect?

- Why can't I tell my AP to shoot more? Is there anything in real life that forbids my playmaker who also happens to be good to shoot from long to try it?

- Why must a IWB have almost every single PI turned on? Why do I need all my IWBs to dribble more and play more risky passes? What if I have a guy that I want to use as an extra body on midfield from the fullback position, but who just passes sideways and doesn't do anything wild rather than morph into a deep-lying Iniesta?

- Speaking of which, why does the IWB role perform COMPLETELY different depending on whether I have a winger in front of him or not? What if I want to choose between the IWB that immediately moves to a midfield position without the ball (which happens with a winger in front), or the IWB that dribbles his way into midfield like a IF (which happens without a winger).

- Why must a Raumdeuter sit narrower? What if I want a guy that stretches play laterally but doesn't dribble and cross all the time like a winger does? There doesn't appear to be any fitting role for this?

- Why does the half-back role only drop to split the CBs if you're not playing with fullbacks? 

- Why does the sweeper keeper role barely do anything different from a normal keeper and not sweep at all?

- Why does the BPD role often waste more of the ball than the regular CB role, because it perversely tells them to play more risky passes which ends up with more punted up long balls, when the common sense interpretation of the role is the other way around?

- Why can't I tell any of my centreback roles, even the BPD, to dribble more? I know it's silly and stupid risky, but let me do it.

- Why can't I manually tell my wingers whether I want them to naturally defend in a very wide position like in FM17, or in a narrow, proper 2-banks-of-4 narrow stance like in FM16?

 

Mentality and team shape

- Why is creative freedom linked to fluidity? What if I want very tight lines (Very Fluid) but very little creativity (Very Structured), Atlético Madrid style?

- Why is "counter" mentality named the way it is, which is completely not counter-attacking football as discussed earlier, yet is more prone to activating a nebulous hidden mode of sudden gung-ho attacks?

- Why does lower mentalities increase the passing length of my defending players and decrease the passing length of my attacking players? What if I want to change mentalities for other reasons but don't want this side-effect?

- I often find myself wanting to change mentalities to increase/lower my player's positioning overall, HOWEVER this also increases my player's risky choices with the ball (ie more through balls, more long shots). What if I want the former but not the later? For more forward runs and higher positioning do I need to go through every single of my players and change their roles, when by the way this could have all sorts of all other implications depending on the available roles?

 

Instructions

- Why does work ball into box affect crossing? What if I want to stop my players to shoot from long (which they are VERY VERY VERY prone to do in this version of the game, against deep defences) but not stop the crosses? Why do I need to go through every single player and give them the "shoot less" PI for this?

- Does anyone actually know the full list of implications of what "retain possession" does these days? Does it shorten passing lenght? Drop risky passes? Turn down the tempo? All of it? What am I supposed to do with an instruction whose effects are nebulous and unclear?

- As the OP vaguely hinted at, why is there no distinction in instructions between running with the ball into an open space, and running past opposition players? They both seem to be covered by the "run with ball often" or "dribble more" instructions? What if I want one but not the other?

- Why is there no distinction between overall defending width and attacking width, with the defending width being exclusively set by mentality? What if I want to change this and defend narrower/wider but don't want all the other side-effects of mentality?

 

I'm sure you can think of many workarounds for many of these issues, or think these are pointless issues that do not make sense, and point me instead to SI's vision of the roles and instructions. And those are valid interpretations. I hope however, that I have shown there are plenty of other alternative interpretations, and plenty of constraints as a result of this tactical interface with too many interconnected side-effects from choosing certain instructions.

Please give us more freedom. I don't care if it makes the game too easy - maybe it will. Maybe it will open up holes for the ME to be exploited, indeed. I just want to feel that my players do what I tell them directly to do (in their own way according to their attributes, of course), rather than game the interface around by pressing 5 different buttons of 5 different things to maybe get them to play the way I want it. This is indeed not good game design.

And now imagine someone who tries to dance their way through the interface, as a newbie to the game, without having the knowledge I've accumulated here through years and years of reading the forum to know what the instructions do. Even real life football tactics gurus would be absolutely lost in the interface and nuances.

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15 minutes ago, ilkork said:

No ****, really? I didn't know that SI decides what's football. Let's give the "Shoot Less Often" PI to players like Pogba, Coutinho, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Rivaldo. Because SI says so.

 

14 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Use a different role then: like for example just a plain centre midfielder and freely modify it yourself. 

Use offensive midfielder and put all the PIs you want.

 

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Guest El Payaso
3 minutes ago, ilkork said:

No, I don't want him to have a heavier workload.
I don't know how to say this in English. All these are not the fix to the problem. They are workarounds, that don't entirely fix the main problem.

You know that I'm right, it's not just me. Let me quote one of the best posts in the entire forum:

 

I agree on some of those like for example a CM(D) in a 4-4-1-1 system where he is supposed to be the 'holding midfielder' and I did complain about that during FM 2017 as 4-4-1-1 used to be one of those formations I liked to use. But I mainly spoke about those highly specific roles such as Enganche and Trequartista and on those exceptions it's highly understandable and good thing that you cannot modify them. 

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Just now, apvmoreira said:

 

Use offensive midfielder and put all the PIs you want.

 

Jesus... We said earlier, THE ATTACKING MIDFIELDER ISN'T A BALL MAGNET.

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Because an ap should not shoot often? he's a playmaker, he wants the ball to make assist to his team mates. this is his main work. if you want a player who mainly try to score, then he's not a playmaker

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2 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Jesus... We said earlier, THE ATTACKING MIDFIELDER ISN'T A BALL MAGNET.

If you don't use playmakers as central mids, it can, i've used in 17 with great success, using a 4222 tactic, emulating Brazilian football

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Just now, pauso said:

Because an ap should not shoot often? he's a playmaker, he wants the ball to make assist to his team mates. this is his main work. if you want a player who mainly try to score, then he's not a playmaker

Really? Go say that to Pogba...

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Just now, apvmoreira said:

If you don't use playmakers as central mids, it can, i've used in 17 with great success, using a 4222 tactic, emulating Brazilian football

I use an Advanced playmaker in the AM area.

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3 minutes ago, ilkork said:

You know that I'm right,

Only you aren't. You just don't understand the bigger picture of what's involved in how a player works in a team. The locked in PI's of an advanced playmaker are simply a template of how an AP will work within the confines of the role itself. If you have an AP with high finishing, composure, decisions, long shots etc and play him in an attacking strata of the pitch, he WILL shoot when given the chance. 

So, the problem isn't taking away a PI from a player, it's finding the RIGHT player to play the role the way you want it to. 

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Just now, ilkork said:

I use an Advanced playmaker in the AM area.

 

You've said that earlier, but on his back what are the roles?

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2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Only you aren't. You just don't understand the bigger picture of what's involved in how a player works in a team. The locked in PI's of an advanced playmaker are simply a template of how an AP will work within the confines of the role itself. If you have an AP with high finishing, composure, decisions, long shots etc and play him in an attacking strata of the pitch, he WILL shoot when given the chance. 

So, the problem isn't taking away a PI from a player, it's finding the RIGHT player to play the role the way you want it to. 

Yes, okay, I'm wrong. So is Noikeee.
Let's just leave it here...
 

1 minute ago, apvmoreira said:

You've said that earlier, but on his back what are the roles?

BWM-D and BBM-S. What's your point?
Look mate, I don't have a problem with my tactic. My tactic is very good. I have a problem as to why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for the Advanced Playmaker.

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Just now, ilkork said:

I have a problem as to why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for the Advanced Playmaker.

**Bangs head off wall***

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39 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's exactly why the 'Classic' edition of the game was created back in FM13,  You have the choice to immerse yourself in the full game, but if that's not for you, and all you want to do is zip through a season picking the team/tactic and buy/sell players, then there's a mode for that too. In fact, just started an FMT save with Sampdoria last night to get a quick season in before the Beta comes out. It's great that SI have catered for both audiences, despite many people turning their noses up to it 

FMT is still looked down upon, no idea why anyone who bemoans the depth of full sim mode & wants to relive the less demanding days of past CM/FM experiences would not play FMT, the only reason I can think of is the lack of an editor & that IMHO has to be a number 1 priority as it coudl see more angry at sim mode players move to the game mode which already provides the experience they want.

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

That's what I'm trying to say. There isn't any other ball magnet in the AM area.

Yes there are.  The Trequartista and Enganche are both playmaker "ball magnets" available at AMC.

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1 minute ago, herne79 said:

Yes there are.  The Trequartista and Enganche are both playmaker "ball magnets" available at AMC.

1 hour ago, ilkork said:

Ok, let me choose Enganche:
-Close Down Much Less? Why?
-Not being able to add Move Into Channels? Why?
-Not being able to add Hold Up Ball? Why?

Ok, let me choose Trequartista:
-Ease Off Tackles? Why?
-Fewer Risky Passes? Why?
-Roam From Position? No, I just want him to Move Into Channels.


You see Herne? All these make no sense to me and leave me dissatisfied.

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6 hours ago, Kcinnay said:

And that aside: a fluid team shape doesn't/(didn't?) make strikers fall back to midfield in the defensive phase, like some users want, like a lot of manager irl make them do.

you can now make strikers fall back to the midfield in the defensive phase with the new PI option where you can tell your striker to mark a specific position (around 3:50 in the video).

before we can only mark specific players, now we can still do that but also mark a specific position.

still not perfect i know but it's getting there. i too hate my forward stuck in the center circle 98% of the game no matter the role/mentality/shape. it was common 15 years ago but not in today's game.

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Guest El Payaso
11 minutes ago, Barside said:

FMT is still looked down upon, no idea why anyone who bemoans the depth of full sim mode & wants to relive the less demanding days of past CM/FM experiences would not play FMT, the only reason I can think of is the lack of an editor & that IMHO has to be a number 1 priority as it coudl see more angry at sim mode players move to the game mode which already provides the experience they want.

I really don't understand why people complain about the depth that the game has and the time that some parts consume. 

Like for example tactically you can make things really simple for yourself and create three tactics tailored to your team's needs in less than three minutes. Also people have had years to study how the roles and instructions work. That is not tough or time consuming at all. And being tactically successful on FM doesn't even require a lot of football knowledge. 

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This is fun but I do agree with @ilkork the AP role shouldn't have a Shoot Less Often PI locked in. The only way around that is either PPMs or a standard AM with modified PIs but then you lose the ball magnet...

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

Ok, let me choose Enganche:
-Close Down Much Less? Why?
-Not being able to add Move Into Channels? Why?
-Not being able to add Hold Up Ball? Why?

Ok, let me choose Trequartista:
-Ease Off Tackles? Why?
-Fewer Risky Passes? Why?
-Roam From Position? No, I just want him to Move Into Channels.


You see Herne? All these make no sense to me and leave me dissatisfied.

Might be an idea if you recheck the hard coded PIs of the TQ.  He has More Risky Passes and Move into Channels set, so the only thing missing from your wish list is tackling (which makes sense as the role is based on players such as Totti or Riquelme).  And you can even get round that (to an extent) by using a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate.  And/or set a TI to get stuck in (although that will affect everyone of course, not just the TQ).

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1 minute ago, Jean0987654321 said:

This is fun but I do agree with @ilkork the AP role shouldn't have a Shoot Less Often PI locked in. The only way around that is either PPMs or a standard AM with modified PIs but then you lose the ball magnet...

Nonsense. A player with the correct attributes to play as a playmaker will still be a 'ball magnet' in an AM role, where you also give him playmaker PIs. 

Anyway, it's a moot point. A player with high finishing, composure, and decisions playing in with an attacking mentality will still shoot when the opportunity presents itself, regardless of the role he plays in. People pay too much attention to the specifically created roles. As I said, they are merely templates representing the typical instructions for that specific role. It's far more important to find the right player for your desired instructions. This is borne out of years of playing the game an experimenting with thousands of players/roles/positions. 

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13 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Might be an idea if you recheck the hard coded PIs of the TQ.  He has More Risky Passes and Move into Channels set, so the only thing missing from your wish list is tackling (which makes sense as the role is based on players such as Totti or Riquelme).  And you can even get round that (to an extent) by using a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate.  And/or set a TI to get stuck in (although that will affect everyone of course, not just the TQ).

Yes, you were right about the "More Risky Passes". It is added by default. However, the "Roam From Position" is also added and I don't want that. Also, I don't like the "Close Down Much Less" and "Ease Off Tackles".
And no, I don't have a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate, neither do I like the "Get Stuck In" TI.

Like I said in an earlier post, these are just workarounds that don't fix the problem. The problem is why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for a role like the Advanced Playmaker, and not just blank so that we decide what we want.

 

Trequartista.PNG

Edited by ilkork

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Just now, nie jem frytek said:

Some of you sound like you think that the best tactic ever would be 11 Messis on the pitch without a goalkeeper.

Care being more specific please?

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3 hours ago, Barside said:

More is great as it gives the AI managers more tool to create realistic & challenging tactical approaches, the last thing I ever want to see are fewer roles that have more customisation . At least not until the AI is capable of creating its own custom roles but very few people will really want to see that as that's when FM really because a test of tactical acumen.

 

Fair enough, but I maintain that, for the human player, less is more. Especially as long as tactical feedback and in-game representation of the match are as unreliable and erratic like they've been til FM17.

Maybe the new additions in FM18 (link play, weakness areas) will help, but generally speaking it's still a guessing game trying to find out why your 4* Advanced Playmaker is playing like crap despite ticking all the boxes for that role. Or whether your star AMC should be set as Trequartista, AP or AM, as the difference isn't really so noticeable... And, to be honest, the lines between roles are blurred in real life as well.

I see how AI may need all those specific roles with PIs and everything, but the human manager is often overwhelmed (and confused about terminology, as many roles aren't 100% defined, and my idea of a DLP may be different than yours or SI's...)

10 different roles for the CM position are like 10 variations of chocolate ice-cream... Appealing and fancy, but ultimately redundant. And in most cases, you'll want to go with a bigger serving of regular chocolate (in FM terms, "screw the role, I'll just buy a better player")
Not to mention, more often than not, you'll see your L2 side playing short pass as if they were Guardiola's Barça anyway...

Edited by RBKalle

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Guest El Payaso
1 minute ago, ilkork said:

Yes, you were right about the "More Risky Passes". It is added by default. However, the "Roam From Position" is also added and I don't want that. Also, I don't like the "Close Down Much Less" and "Ease Off Tackles".
And no, I don't have a player with high Aggression, Determination and Work Rate, neither do I like the "Get Stuck In" TI.

Like I said in an earlier post, these are just workarounds that don't fix the problem. The problem is why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for a role like the Advanced Playmaker, and not just blank so that we decide what we want.

 

Trequartista.PNG

But like said: those are the instructions that make Trequartista a Trequartista. And they are based on how the role works irl and how it imitates that in the game. It's not TA anymore if you can tweak those. 

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33 minutes ago, ilkork said:


The problem is why is the "Shoot Less Often" PI locked for a role like the Advanced Playmaker, and not just blank so that we decide what we want.

 

Have you actually been listening to a word I've said, or are you just going to repeat the same thing over and over again? 

You simply need to either be more creative with the vanilla roles in the game, or buy a player who'll fit in to the style of player you want in that position. It's really not that difficult. 

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26 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

But like said: those are the instructions that make Trequartista a Trequartista. And they are based on how the role works irl and how it imitates that in the game. It's not TA anymore if you can tweak those. 

And who said that the "Shoot Less Often" PI makes the Advanced Playmaker? Is this how this role works irl?

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Cut it out the pair of you.

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I don't think there will be a major overhaul in any defending until the coders have worked out how to deal with it. From memory, the guys basically made the entirety of FM 2012 engine-wise a "gap year" where parts were significantly re-coded behind the scenes. Back then afaik without exactly making promises as to which release it would be all ready. In the end, it took the better part of two releases, and a 2012 version where nothing much had changed from prior. Given the likely complexity of the task, and based on the game's development history, I don't think we'll see a significant shift until a few versions in. If it all comes to pass -- I've argued this before, but if the game would start introducing specific micro-management of pressing zones and similar, this forum might become a funhouse. This game has probably one of most divisive (or diverse for a more positive connotation) target groups you'll find for any game. As such, you'll find plenty guys who struggle with the "common sense" tasks you're assigned to manage as is, and that's not all to do with opaque UI and documentation that probably can't hope to cope with bringing all users on a roughly level playing field.

As a side-note, I'm dissapointeed that some remarks from "experienced user/s" about apparently talks having the power to single-handedly end a run/cause a loss haven't bean dealt with. Even if that were meant to display tongue-in-cheekiness, it's cringe and continues to spread completely wrong ideas about the game works (and should work). I'll filter this all come a demo if it improves the playing experience for me. But this nonsense previously wasn't allowed to spread unaddressed, and it's all the more disappointing that it is experienced players against resorting to it.
 

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Guest El Payaso
20 minutes ago, ilkork said:

And who said that the "Shoot Less Often" PI makes the Advanced Playmaker? Is this how this role works irl?

Read the messages that @Dagenham Dave wrote and try to understand and see a bigger picture. 

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Anyone have any ideas about what would happen if you ask your player to mark a position which your opposition ends up not using? Say for example you ask your striker to mark the defensive midfielder but your opponent plays without one. It's a shame the instruction isn't clicked on in the video

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3 hours ago, wazza said:

Looking forward to this along with the other features 

Has anyone noticed on the video on the analysis section it shows regained possession and lost possession and also the location in the middle third section in both positive and negative traits - how can this be as you cannot regain and lose possession in the same pitch area. It has to be one or the other or would you read this as the players lost possession but then won it back in that section of the pitch or that it is a glitch that needs fixing for release of the beta in that it is read as that they lost / won possession overall as a team cannot have a trait of winning and losing possession. 

 

I would also hope on the squares where you are vunerable it would tell you what the weaknesses are 

I definately agree with your third paragraph. 

 

As for the second paragraph, the way I read it is that the area of the pitch is where you lose possession a lot but are good at regaining it .

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3 hours ago, eric1000 said:

It's called experience over many years of playing CM & FM.  Couple that with the fact that Si wait until the pre-order bonus is coming to an end before drip feeding us the new details.  Then add on the fact that they raised the price so that the pre-order bonus looked like a good deal in the first place and it doesn't take much imagination to react in a negative manner to what amounts to more of the same with legitimate user feedback ignored again.  I didn't buy the game last year ( first time since Eidos published CM ) and to be honest it doesn't look like I will be buying it this year either, because at the moment it looks like 90% preparation & 10% actually playing the game.  Some people like to pour over spreadsheets and that's fine.  If you are one of those people then more power to you.  I want to play a video game and have fun, not spend all of my time trying to appease virtual babies and running the risk of a wrong word completely effing up the team.

I think your 90% and 10% is a prety good reflection of real life football management, managers spend five days preparing for an hour and half match.

 

If you want to play a video game and have fun, that sounds like FIFA or PES

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9 hours ago, irish kopite said:

Hard to think of a Trequartista out wide currently playing. Two that I can think of from the past are John Barnes and John Robertson. Both had the freedom to either go down the line or cut inside so not exact examples. Robertson was definitely the playmaker in Forest's European Cup winning teams.

Give it to the fat man

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1 hour ago, ilkork said:

And who said that the "Shoot Less Often" PI makes the Advanced Playmaker? Is this how this role works irl?

I know this is a side topic but I figured I chime in. I agree with this. I think the best way to deal with this would be to bring back the setting where you can set a player to be the designated playmaker or at the very least make 'shoot less often' not hard coded.

Every playmaker is different, take Dybala for example. I consider Dybala as both a playmaker and scorer at Juve. In addition, he has decent workrate and closes down players, so making him a trequartista and enganche wouldn't work. You can remedy this and set him as a Shadow striker, but his movement wouldn't facilitate being a playmaker as he would be running towards goal and less involved in build up play. Using him as an advanced playmaker has "shoot less" coded. Making him an AMC may not have him see the ball as much and if you are playing with Matuidi and Khedira, you would want Dybala to get as many touches as possible.

Now, you can say, there are workarounds, you can give him ppms, like shoot from distance for an AP, or dictates tempo and comes deep to get ball for a shadow striker to facilitate the playmaking side of his game, or give him hard tackling for an enganche/trequartista but you can see how this can be frustrating and it may not even lead to the ideal scenario.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy the game or make it work but I agree that sometimes the excessive hardcoding can be limiting and unnecessary, especially for strikers.

 

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Most of you pple arguing about the hard-coded instructions probably just don't understand football well enough. Those instructions are there to make the roles what they are. Those are what define the roles. I would rather that SI put more roles in the game with hard-coded instructions that fine tune their behavior than just put more roles leaving the instructions blank. If the instructions are not there, there won't be any need for the enganche as well as the treq and AP. The instructions are what differentiates the roles. If you remove them, the roles change. 

As for the tactics improvements in the new game, decent effort. Thank God they did away with the boxes. I like the new features do far. 

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I personally think this year's FM has a lot of big changes incorporated. Usually you see some updates and they are small improvements but this year there are really big steps.

Dynamics has a lot of potential and is very timely with real life dressing rooms getting their coaches fired. 

The new scouting system is also very nice and improves upon the previous model. You get more and more information and things get more meaningful and in depth. 

The tactics overhaul, while many complain about it, is really a big change. So far we have only seen a couple of screenshots but from experience you know there is even more behind it when you start playing. Analysis of your weaknesses on the tactics screen? Color coded? Nice. Relationships between players. New roles that let you do things in the game that people constantly kept complaining about that they can't do. 

It'sreally not difficult. Read the instructions what they do and select the role you want. They are presets. People complain about wanting their freedom to have their goalkeeper be the playmakers dribble all the way to the opposing goal, cut inside, run back with the ball, move outside etc. for what purpose? You have all the roles. Just select them. That's why they're giving us more hard coded options. Click and it's set. 

You will get more information similar to many match statistics sites. Pros and cons. Weaknesses. Let's see how much influence the tactics team talk has. What you can do with it. 

And then don't forget. A new match engine will be presented. As Miles said. It's not graphics. It's what underneath. What makes all tick. So why complain now already about something you haven't seen. 

I'm on board with those that want to see features before the discount deal is done. It's human nature and anyone saying you just have to trust them - uhm, no, that's not how it works. 

But this year they have done it. I waited for the headlines video and saw enough to convince me. And now they are releasing multiple videos to show features. Not just some small feature reveal on Twitter somewhere. For me personally much better and I'm excited for this year's game. 

And as usual, I'm gonna mention the FIFA manager because if you ever played that, then you can appreciate this game. Complain as much as you want about your computer animated players not really doing what you want but if you played the other one and then came over to this game as I did, you'd just marvel at how they actually really do what you ask them to. 

Is it perfect? Not yet. But it's getting better each year and this year is a giant leap. 

Let's see what else they will show us. A video every two days it's amazing. Even the usual YouTubers are overwhelmed to keep up.

 

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I would have preferred a specific role or PI to encourage that behaviour but a new player trait is the next best option.

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7 hours ago, RBKalle said:

 

Fair enough, but I maintain that, for the human player, less is more. Especially as long as tactical feedback and in-game representation of the match are as unreliable and erratic like they've been til FM17.

Maybe the new additions in FM18 (link play, weakness areas) will help, but generally speaking it's still a guessing game trying to find out why your 4* Advanced Playmaker is playing like crap despite ticking all the boxes for that role. Or whether your star AMC should be set as Trequartista, AP or AM, as the difference isn't really so noticeable... And, to be honest, the lines between roles are blurred in real life as well.

You’ve effectively summed it up here. SI are attempting to mimic real life so in FM just as irl what works on the tactics board just doesn’t work on the pitch & there will be times when there is no logical reason, just an acceptance that it didn’t work & it’s time to move to a new plan or player.

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It looks good and many useful new features, but I'm still a bit underwhelmed. I had hoped for a couple of things more, though I understand it might be hard to implement. I would like to see more "transitional" instructions. For instance when the team loses possession do <something>, when the team regain possession in advanced areas do <something>. This would allow us to give more tactical instructions as to how the transitional phases were to be executed. Like gegenpress. If the team loses possession full on pressing for a short while, if unsuccessful then fall back into deeper positions. Or more detailed counterattacking options. If we are getting the ball in advanced areas everyone in wide areas bomb forward to create space for a cross to our big target man.

As I stated, I get it might be hard to do, but it would give a more realistic approach to tactics, or at least the transitional phases of the play. This is, at least for me, the most lacking aspect of tactics for the moment. I'm still looking forward to play, don't get me wrong, I was just hoping for this to be implemented.

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57 minutes ago, tyro said:

A new match engine will be presented. As Miles said. It's not graphics. It's what underneath. What makes all tick.

 

Miles didn't say that at all though, what he actually said was a new *graphics* engine

 

Edited by 91427

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26 minutes ago, XaW said:

It looks good and many useful new features, but I'm still a bit underwhelmed. I had hoped for a couple of things more, though I understand it might be hard to implement. I would like to see more "transitional" instructions. For instance when the team loses possession do <something>, when the team regain possession in advanced areas do <something>. This would allow us to give more tactical instructions as to how the transitional phases were to be executed. Like gegenpress. If the team loses possession full on pressing for a short while, if unsuccessful then fall back into deeper positions. Or more detailed counterattacking options. If we are getting the ball in advanced areas everyone in wide areas bomb forward to create space for a cross to our big target man.

As I stated, I get it might be hard to do, but it would give a more realistic approach to tactics, or at least the transitional phases of the play. This is, at least for me, the most lacking aspect of tactics for the moment. I'm still looking forward to play, don't get me wrong, I was just hoping for this to be implemented.

You said it. It is an improvement, for sure. It seems like the interface is clearer now, with the ability to do more, easier.

But if one seeks to play the game in a way that mirrors real life he will be disappointed. 

The defensive part of the game is very lacking, as are things like pressing triggers, passing lanes, when to pass, where to compress play...

In short, the tactical ship has sailed, and SI is trying to play catch up in a paddle boat. 

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6 hours ago, kidthekid said:

I consider Dybala as both a playmaker and scorer at Juve. In addition, he has decent workrate and closes down players, so making him a trequartista and enganche wouldn't work.

It certainly can work.  Those attributes will just make him carry out the roles in a different type of way compared to players you'd normally associate with those roles who have very low work rate.

Roles define player behaviour, everything else (including player attributes) then modify that behaviour.  For example, in terms of on pitch performances, Carlos Tevez, with all his aggression, determination and work rate, has been the best "trequartista" I've ever used.  Not only great in attack but also ran all day long all over the pitch both defensively and offensively.  But a traditional trequartista such as Totti or Riquelme he most certainly was not.

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