Trying to create more shots and through passes into the box

[Ragin Cajun]

I'm doing a YT save to try to get help in playing the game.  Some good advice there.  But I'm really struggling to understand how to set positions/duties etc to get the play I want.  Currently I am playing a 4-3-3 with a striker up top, two attacking wingers, three center mids and two defensive mids.  My fullbacks are playing wingback positions on Attack.  It's probably my fifth or sixth tactic since starting.

My top striker is doing ok, 11 in 16 games but I'm seeing a big log jam in the middle just outside the box and I am wanting to see my wingers doing more crosses and my center mids that come up to play more passes into the box.  The striker, I've had him on several roles, seems to end up outside the penalty area when he receives most balls.  I'll try to start taking some pictures.  As noted I'm doing a save on YT to try to get help as well.  Not sure if the YT link is allowed but here is the link to the playlist for this save.  If not allowed, let me know and I'll remove it. 

 

[herne79]

28 minutes ago, Ragin Cajun said:

I'll try to start taking some pictures.

Yeh please put up some screenshots to detail your current tactical system.  If you can, a brief overview of what you've been doing up to this point would also be handy as, with the best will in the world, it's perhaps unlikely someone here is going to sit through 21 thirty+ min episodes to catch themselves up.  

You also say "I'm really struggling to understand how to set positions/duties etc to get the play I want" but you haven't told us what play (you mean style of play?) you want?

[Ragin Cajun]

That's the biggest problem herne.  I know a bit about the game but I'm not knowledgable on the various tactics (4-4-2, etc) and I mix up some of the words to describe what I'm looking at (some mean the same to us Americans..lol).  Actually the last episode is the most recent tactic/shape change as well.  (I guess I'm a glutton, I just finished binging on a 191 episode journeyman..lol).  And the first 9 videos are just me asking a bunch of questions and trying to figure a starting tactic.  The first friendly isn't until Ep. 9.

So here's a recap attempt:

Playing with Colchester in League Two.  I'm not doing badly, sitting 7th in the table at 8-5-6 and a +5 GD.  We have 29 points after 19 matches.  We're two points out of 2nd position in the table and 11 points clear of relegation.  Portsmouth are running away with the league at 51 points, 20 points clear of anyone else.

1. Started with a 4-3-1-2 (two strikers and a AMC).  First friendly we outshot Barnsley 14-10; 9 on target, 2 half chances, 6 long shots.  58% possession.  78% passes.  Lost 1-3. 

2. Moved to a similar tactic but with one center mid (BBM/Su) and wingers (W/Att on left and WM/Au on right).  AMC is set to AP/Su.  Strikers are AF/Att and TM-Att.  Won this one 4-0.  15-7 advantage on shots.  6 on target.  1 half chance.  9 long shots.  44% possession, 71% passing.

3. Getting eaten up defensively I moved to a 4-1-2-2-1 (or a 4-3-3) but with a DM and two CM (AP/Att and CM/Sup).  My AML was set to W/Supp and my AMR was set to IF/Att.  My striker up top was AF/Att.  My DM was BWM/Def.  Won this one 1-0.  Outshot however 9-16.  4 on target, 2 long shots.  No CCC or half.  50/50 possession.  61% passing.

4. Switched to a 4-3-1-2 Narrow with three CM (BBM/sup; BWM/sup; AP/sup).  Strikers are AF/Att and DLF/Sup.  Won 2-1.  18-7 advantage on shots.  9 OT, 2 CCC, 1 half.  11 long.  59% poss. 76% passing.

5. In my most recent upload I had spent a lot of time on YT watching some How To videos by Bust the Net.  With that information I devised a 4-3-3 (4-5-1 wide) with my back four, three center mids, two AM (L/R) and a striker up top.  Center mids are AP/Att in the middle; BWM/Supp on the mid left and a AP/Supp on the mid right.  My left winger is set IF/Supp and my right winger is W/Supp.  My striker is AF/Att.  Won the game 3-0.  Outshot 20-7 however.  3 on target, 1 CCC, 3 half.  46% possession.  69% passing.

However....winning or not I honestly have no clue how to figure what tactic/shape is best for my club based on my players (by this I mean a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 etc).  I am further confounded by roles and duties.  I have no inkling how to choose Attack/Support/Defend/Automatic duties because even reading them I am unsure of how they mesh together in both ends of the pitches.  This is my fourth version of the game I've tried to play (9, 12, 14 and now 17) and honestly each time I've trashed the game as I can't figure it out.  The only real success I've had was in 12 with a downloaded plug and play tactic but that feels like playing someone elses save to me and I want to be able to come up with my own, not just take someone elses creation and have it work.  Sadly the game doesn't do a whole lot to help out (18 shows some promise with the red zones in the tactic screen to show areas that you may be weak in attacking/defending...at least I hope that is what that means).  But even after four versions, countless forum browsing, YouTube videos...I'm just pushing buttons and mashing switches in hopes that something works.  But I couldn't explain why something is working or if anything I did was good or bad.  Hence the video series so people could see everything and give me advice on the fly.  I'll continue that but was also asking here just to try and get something to make sense to me.  I'm not even sure what screenshots would be beneficial I'm so lost at the nuances of the game.  The screenshots are the current roster look and the last game recap e-mail from ingame.

[Ragin Cajun]

As for what I want to play...lol, good question. 

I want a solid defense to attempt clean sheets.  I want multiple scoring threats if possible.  I like crossing and through passing into the penalty area.  I dislike long shots due to their inaccuracy especially at the lower levels of the game that I'm currently playing.  I also like to play control and retain the possession. 

One thing I haven't even started to look at is individual player orders and I'm not sure how to use the team instructions within the tactic to work towards this goal.

[herne79]

ok nice one.  I think perhaps the best place to start (given all the questions you have) is probably the "Art of Possession Football" found in the pinned guides at the top of the forum https://community.sigames.com/topic/373937-tactic-building-and-training-guides-start-here/.  Hopefully you don't mind a little reading .

One thing I'll add:

28 minutes ago, Ragin Cajun said:

I have no inkling how to choose Attack/Support/Defend/Automatic duties

Attack / Support / Defend basically defines how forward thinking (or not) a player is.  Automatic just means the player will adopt the same duty as your chosen Mentality (contain/defend = defend; counter/standard/control = support; attacking/overload = attack).  Getting the right balance of duties in the right areas is the million dollar question, but the principles discussed in that thread above should give you a decent idea.

Have a read, see how you get on, ask questions if you get stuck.

[Armistice]

10 hours ago, Ragin Cajun said:

As for what I want to play...lol, good question. 

I want a solid defense to attempt clean sheets.  I want multiple scoring threats if possible.  I like crossing and through passing into the penalty area.  I dislike long shots due to their inaccuracy especially at the lower levels of the game that I'm currently playing.  I also like to play control and retain the possession. 

One thing I haven't even started to look at is individual player orders and I'm not sure how to use the team instructions within the tactic to work towards this goal.

Umm I think you want a bit of everything in your game which is not always possible to do. In my opinion you should try to look at your favorite style of football (Spain, Brazil, Liverpool whatever) and try to take a few things from one single tactic and implement them into yours. Ofc you shouldn't forget about your player attributes, matchday opponent, etc.

 

Let's say you want to play a bit like Spain. Aha, so how are they playing nowadays? Hmm, short passing, possession style. Hmm good, so how should I achieve that short passing? You think of your options and then try to come up with a plan.

[Ragin Cajun]

OK, been reading a lot and trying to incorporate some of what I think I understand into my tactic.  I had a 4-1-2-3 with a DM and attacking wingers that I used in the last two games in the table.  This current game I'm using a 4-3-3 with a condensed center mid and wingers on the attacking end with one up top.  Here's some various screenshots:

Here's the current 4-3-3 tactic with roles and duties.  The field shots are one with a ball being played into our zone by the opponent and how my defense is reacting; the other is my side responding after taking possession and beginning to move the ball into the midfield transition zone.

[Ragin Cajun]

The first shot here is defending the right flank.

Second is my poacher putting a shot in from the top of the box instead of working in for a better shot.

Last is transitioning into the attack zone with the 4-3-3.

We're about 31 minutes into the match here.  I'm on Counter/Structured.  We're at 58% possession but are outshot 2-3.  Both of our shots are on target, so that's positive; but they are also both long shots.  We're at 84% pass completion.

[Ragin Cajun]

We ended the game with 8 shots, 5 on target.  64% possession.  However, they had a man sent off in the 75th minute.  Both our goals game in the first 54 minutes. 

[summatsupeer]

On 10/10/2017 at 22:30, Ragin Cajun said:

I want a solid defense to attempt clean sheets.  I want multiple scoring threats if possible.  I like crossing and through passing into the penalty area.  I dislike long shots due to their inaccuracy especially at the lower levels of the game that I'm currently playing.  I also like to play control and retain the possession. 

I'm going to read between the lines and say you want a lower risky style (clean sheets + possession). You want to work the ball around then when the time is right, play a through ball / cross to create a quality chance, but without a reliance on one player to score the goals.

1 hour ago, Ragin Cajun said:

Counter makes sense with what I put above, but you've not shown your EIGHT team instructions?

Currently I think your setup to counter attack due to Structured and those roles + duties.  You lack movement between the lines, your only attack duty is leading your attack, with only support duties behind him, plus two of them are playmakers so tend to stay deeper than other roles with a support duty.

Why would a Poacher work it around for a better chance?  He's the most attacking player in your team and probably doesn't have great vision / decisions / teamwork to see other options.

Your left side could lack width with the DFB very unlikely to get forward due to role+duty+counter+structured and using a IF ahead of him.  Yet on the right you have Winger who will hold width and he is supported by a FB-S, who will still be quite low risk due to counter+structured.  You can see the FB difference in the second image you posted.  Third looks like a good chance if the poacher makes the run and the AP makes the through ball.  

You mention BustTheNet on YT, have you watched the LLM 41221 (433 DM Wide) video?

[Ragin Cajun]

1 minute ago, summatsupeer said:

I'm going to read between the lines and say you want a lower risky style (clean sheets + possession). You want to work the ball around then when the time is right, play a through ball / cross to create a quality chance, but without a reliance on one player to score the goals.

Counter makes sense with what I put above, but you've not shown your EIGHT team instructions?

Currently I think your setup to counter attack due to Structured and those roles + duties.  You lack movement between the lines, your only attack duty is leading your attack, with only support duties behind him, plus two of them are playmakers so tend to stay deeper than other roles with a support duty.

Why would a Poacher work it around for a better chance?  He's the most attacking player in your team and probably doesn't have great vision / decisions / teamwork to see other options.

Your left side could lack width with the DFB very unlikely to get forward due to role+duty+counter+structured and using a IF ahead of him.  Yet on the right you have Winger who will hold width and he is supported by a FB-S, who will still be quite low risk due to counter+structured.  You can see the FB difference in the second image you posted.  Third looks like a good chance if the poacher makes the run and the AP makes the through ball.  

You mention BustTheNet on YT, have you watched the LLM 41221 (433 DM Wide) video?

I haven't watched any specific formation/tactic videos because I'm trying to learn how to pick my own...rather than just copy something.  Maybe that's the wrong tact.  The only extended success I've ever had with the game was a plug and play tactic from FM12 but I got bored because it was "too good" and I still didn't understand why it worked.

Seems like ANY formation/tactic would work (ie 4-4-2, 4-5-1) it's the details of picking the right roles and duties and instructions that make or break a tactic.  And that's what I'm really grasping at straws trying to understand.

[Ragin Cajun]

This is from the next match, currently playing it out.  I've dialed it back to six.  The other two are usually Get Stuck In and then I think the other I had added during the match was Run At Defense.  Trying to get some breakthroughs with my top man.

[summatsupeer]

39 minutes ago, Ragin Cajun said:

I haven't watched any specific formation/tactic videos because I'm trying to learn how to pick my own...rather than just copy something.  Maybe that's the wrong tact.  The only extended success I've ever had with the game was a plug and play tactic from FM12 but I got bored because it was "too good" and I still didn't understand why it worked.

Seems like ANY formation/tactic would work (ie 4-4-2, 4-5-1) it's the details of picking the right roles and duties and instructions that make or break a tactic.  And that's what I'm really grasping at straws trying to understand.

Like pretty much all of @Rashidi content, it is about the principles and how things go together, not "just use this".  His video explanations are a lot clearer than me trying to pretty much repeat him in text.

I totally agree Roles + Duties are key, i'd say the most important factor.  I'd focus on them before adding TI's with a major effect like Retain Possession or going to extreme team shapes if you aren't sure what things do.  If your going to play such a low risk team mentality I think you need a few more players taking risks than just your lone ST.

[Ragin Cajun]

33 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Like pretty much all of @Rashidi content, it is about the principles and how things go together, not "just use this".  His video explanations are a lot clearer than me trying to pretty much repeat him in text.

I totally agree Roles + Duties are key, i'd say the most important factor.  I'd focus on them before adding TI's with a major effect like Retain Possession or going to extreme team shapes if you aren't sure what things do.  If your going to play such a low risk team mentality I think you need a few more players taking risks than just your lone ST.

So, am I interpreting that in that I SHOULD watch tactic specific videos to better understand how they piece together?  Good info if so. 

[Cleon]

11 hours ago, Ragin Cajun said:

So, am I interpreting that in that I SHOULD watch tactic specific videos to better understand how they piece together?  Good info if so. 

Rashidi's video's specifically yeah. No offence to everyone else who makes tactical videos but they tend to not be very accurate with what they say. Where as Rashidi's videos on his Bustthenet channel are informative and he explains why something works and the way it works. He also speaks facts considering he is one of a handful of people who knows the game inside out and how it functions

[Ragin Cajun]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

Rashidi's video's specifically yeah. No offence to everyone else who makes tactical videos but they tend to not be very accurate with what they say. Where as Rashidi's videos on his Bustthenet channel are informative and he explains why something works and the way it works. He also speaks facts considering he is one of a handful of people who knows the game inside out and how it functions

Well, you and he are two of the main ones I'm browsing through stuff.  :-)