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Neil Brock

Football Manager TV: Dynamics

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Guest El Payaso
4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If you want a wide player to be primarily goal focussed, such as your Messi example, then you'd obviously play him at AMR/L not MR/L  with an appropriate role and duty.  The point of using MR/L instead is to aid your defensive ambitions which you probably wouldn't do with a player such as Messi.

Honestly I feel this is where people get confused - and is where the UI falls short.  If you want somebody to actively help out in defence, then use the ML/R positions.  If you prefer them to stay further forward then use AML/R.

But even then, given relevant tactical settings and/or player attributes, players can still track back effectively and consistently from AML/R.

I'm not saying that I'm having any problems with that. I've had a MR as my main goalscorer for many FMs, for example on FM 2017 and 2015. I'm mainly talking about how the AI would cope with something like this as they even struggle to make Messi score as a AMR. 

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1 hour ago, El Payaso said:

I'm not saying that I'm having any problems with that. I've had a MR as my main goalscorer for many FMs, for example on FM 2017 and 2015. I'm mainly talking about how the AI would cope with something like this as they even struggle to make Messi score as a AMR. 

This is where my skeptism comes from, as a human manager I can put together a very attacking 451, I had MSN scoring 100+ goals in a season & given the same players it’s easy to outbtactic the AI because it lacks the ability to formulate a cohesive tactical approach or adapt to what is happening other than a binary are we winning or losing & what did we expect logic & now SI is asking another set of AI code to be adept at more complex squad management principles, simply put I have my doubts that there will be a challenge from other managers & the only likely cause of failure is not selecting the correct option in an interaction mini-game.

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31 minutes ago, Barside said:

This is where my skeptism comes from, as a human manager I can put together a very attacking 451, I had MSN scoring 100+ goals in a season & given the same players it’s easy to outbtactic the AI because it lacks the ability to formulate a cohesive tactical approach or adapt to what is happening other than a binary are we winning or losing & what did we expect logic & now SI is asking another set of AI code to be adept at more complex squad management principles, simply put I have my doubts that there will be a challenge from other managers & the only likely cause of failure is not selecting the correct option in an interaction mini-game.

Tn theory the AI could handle many aspects of the squad management near perfectly (since you can hard code knowledge of how players will react to an action, and players' responses to a particular action must be considerably less complex a simulation than the ME) but then the dreaded "AI Realism" vs AI performance trade off rears its head, and the game ensures that managers with attributes that make them disciplinarians will always take the tough option even if it provokes squad riots, and managers with bad man management attributes will frequently fail to take even basic steps, and then you get the AI screwing up in more ways than it did before.

I mean, there's an argument than an AI which usually sees Mourinho fall out with his players and get sacked after two or three seasons is an improvement on one where he seems to stick around for a while, but I'm not sure players finding their title races too easy already will see it that way.

 

If I had to guess at how humans will behave significantly differently to the AI and derive enormous benefit, I'd anticipate that the AI will be programmed to see high influence players just past their prime as fantastic assets to the squad, whereas the experienced human manager will do everything they possibly can to avoid being stuck with players who will make the entire dressing room unhappy when they don't start, and make the team weaker with their lack of pace when they do.

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3 hours ago, KUBI said:

Not a FM 2018 feature video.

 

As FM doesn't deal in match rigging, probably not. :D Hopefully and likely not one either, whilst we're talking about the beauty of 2d graphics and player behavior. ;)
 

 

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

Tn theory the AI could handle many aspects of the squad management near perfectly (since you can hard code knowledge of how players will react to an action, and players' responses to a particular action must be considerably less complex a simulation than the ME) but then the dreaded "AI Realism" vs AI performance trade off rears its head, and the game ensures that managers with attributes that make them disciplinarians will always take the tough option even if it provokes squad riots, and managers with bad man management attributes will frequently fail to take even basic steps, and then you get the AI screwing up in more ways than it did before.

I mean, there's an argument than an AI which usually sees Mourinho fall out with his players and get sacked after two or three seasons is an improvement on one where he seems to stick around for a while, but I'm not sure players finding their title races too easy already will see it that way.

 

If I had to guess at how humans will behave significantly differently to the AI and derive enormous benefit, I'd anticipate that the AI will be programmed to see high influence players just past their prime as fantastic assets to the squad, whereas the experienced human manager will do everything they possibly can to avoid being stuck with players who will make the entire dressing room unhappy when they don't start, and make the team weaker with their lack of pace when they do.

If the AI managers can actually read & understand the report card assessment of player personality traits (hidden attributes) that would be a massive step in the right direction, the next would be for them to then appreciate how the differently personalities interact with each other & how they blend with particular positions & roles within the tactic.

4 minutes ago, Jason the Yank said:

Clearly the solution is to bring back wibble/wobble.

 

What do you mean bring back?  Despite the UI representation I highly doubt the CM3 ME had any ability to use the concept & all we got was a placebo effect.

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This was already in the past games, i am playing FM15 and this is obvious with the team meetings and also the assistant manager mentions who fits in and who doesnt, so its pretty much just an interface improvement to make it easier to follow. 1 year for just this? wow

And from a previous post showing that FM thinks Zarate is greek, it seems to be buggy already.

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53 minutes ago, GoldenGoal said:

This was already in the past games, i am playing FM15 and this is obvious with the team meetings and also the assistant manager mentions who fits in and who doesnt, so its pretty much just an interface improvement to make it easier to follow. 1 year for just this? wow

And from a previous post showing that FM thinks Zarate is greek, it seems to be buggy already.

This definitely was not in FM15 at this depth . Nor in any other FM. It's clearly incorporated some parts and added new areas. 

How well it will work remains to be seen. But to say it's a re-skin is objectively wrong 

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8 hours ago, GoldenGoal said:

This was already in the past games, i am playing FM15 and this is obvious with the team meetings and also the assistant manager mentions who fits in and who doesnt, so its pretty much just an interface improvement to make it easier to follow. 1 year for just this? wow

And from a previous post showing that FM thinks Zarate is greek, it seems to be buggy already.

actually the screenshot said mostly Greek not that they all were Greek

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14 hours ago, herne79 said:

If you want a wide player to be primarily goal focussed, such as your Messi example, then you'd obviously play him at AMR/L not MR/L  with an appropriate role and duty.  The point of using MR/L instead is to aid your defensive ambitions which you probably wouldn't do with a player such as Messi.

Honestly I feel this is where people get confused - and is where the UI falls short.  If you want somebody to actively help out in defence, then use the ML/R positions.  If you prefer them to stay further forward then use AML/R.

But even then, given relevant tactical settings and/or player attributes, players can still track back effectively and consistently from AML/R.

I beg to differ. I don't think the AI is smart enough to handle that. lol 

I have seen countless times my attacking players, especially the striker, who finds himself having to defend a counter attack from a set piece, chases after a player till the middle of the pitch, fails to cover or put in a tackle and then runs back to his striker position. My defenders were still out of position and all he had to do was to track him long enough and hold up play for the defensive shape to return, but he freaking ran back! 

It was funny and frustrating at the same time.

And mind you, I had instructions for all my attacking players to press, and I don't set up my team to be very attacking. I am a defensive-first manager.

It is hilarious (and shocking) how the AI can still be so awful at this stage of SI's development.

It has been like what, 20 years since SI have created this game?

There are so many major issues with the game at the basic level that SI really need to focus on.

I am willing to give this new dynamic feature a look-see and see how it pans out, but I honestly don't see how it can be a game changer.  

I really hope to see an announcement on AI soon, along with tactics. 

Please, SI. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Spedding said:

actually the screenshot said mostly Greek not that they all were Greek

See, I was thinking about this, I'm interested to know to what extent nationality/age etc are what defines the groups, or whether the UI is just giving a summary of the group members similarities

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I think this is an interesting feature as long as it does help player interaction. It's tiring having nonsensical discussions with players. I hope this isnt all just a pretty screen with loads of information which is basically saying who is mates with who and then there's not really much aside from that. I'm just hoping there's some added to depth to all this. What I really want to know is how is all this information gonna help me out? 

Edited by Harryhi

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People wanting to see dramatic year on year improvements really don't understand how yearly releases work, do they? Sometimes getting stuff in the game as a foundation for expanding and tweaking for the game after is going to happen - case in point, data analysts and sports scientists.

This seems like a good improvement to what was already on the back-end.

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1 hour ago, CaptainSa said:

People wanting to see dramatic year on year improvements really don't understand how yearly releases work, do they? Sometimes getting stuff in the game as a foundation for expanding and tweaking for the game after is going to happen - case in point, data analysts and sports scientists.

This seems like a good improvement to what was already on the back-end.

Ahh... Refreshing to see someone else who have at least heard of iterative programming. Take one step at a time, too big changes will often create big issues that are hard to resolve.

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On 08/10/2017 at 22:21, martplfc1 said:

Sorry to sound miserable, but this seems like another feature that brings you little joy for getting it right but causes huge problems if you get it wrong.

I'm not a psychotherapist, just let me buy players because their stats are good and fit my style of play.

Hopefully this isn't too overbearing and hasn't had too much time spent on its development to the detriment of the ME. 

 

/Agree

Nursery manager 2018.  I wonder if the manager can achieve the kind of status enjoyed by the likes of Ferguson where it didn't really matter what the players in the dressing room wanted as his word was law, didn't like it and out you went with the full backing of the board.

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Guest El Payaso
16 minutes ago, eric1000 said:

/Agree

Nursery manager 2018.  I wonder if the manager can achieve the kind of status enjoyed by the likes of Ferguson where it didn't really matter what the players in the dressing room wanted as his word was law, didn't like it and out you went with the full backing of the board.

Like it or not but this is quite major part of managing a team in real life. Tell Mourinho that managing a team and getting along with your players for more than two seasons is as easy as dancing barefooted on a field of grass and flowers. 

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Very dubious about this new feature seems like if you get it right you gain little but get it wrong and basically you lose the dressing room and your job....
I don't want to be spending ages worrying about social groups of my players wasting my time, rather than playing the game. 
I will wait till the game is released won't be pre ordering have a feeling this feature will kill off quite a lot of players. 
This goes into for me personally too much micro managing. 

 

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1 hour ago, styluz_05 said:

Very dubious about this new feature seems like if you get it right you gain little but get it wrong and basically you lose the dressing room and your job....

 

Welcome to Bayern Munich vs Carlo Ancelotti ;-)

Realism was "always" a hugely important factor in regards to the development of the FM and social aspects both in terms of squad building and team management are extremely relevant topics. It is not a coincedence that Hitzfeld and Heynckes were responsible for Munichs last two CL titles, both highly skilled when it came to this particular part of the job.

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On 10/9/2017 at 10:53, westy8chimp said:

I'm arguing it from the UI perspective to be honest. Also objectively through the eyes of a first timer

On this forum we are told the formation is akin to our defensive shape and that the instructions can be used to determine our transition to attack. But everything in the game (UI) tells us differently. It's more like we are presented with an attacking formation, and then through observation we realise there is some natural tracking back (as opposed to starting position) into a defensive shape.

 

As someone that is new to football in general, and new to the game with FM16, when I saw posters discussing "it's your defensive shape" I didn't actually take it to mean that players on the UI that are on the other side of the midfield line will never come back onto my side of half....

I took it as "this is the general shape that my team will have on defense" and that still appears to be an accurate statement?  If I have AML vs ML, the AML sits a bit farther forward than the ML but the basic shape (and I typically played with 4-1-2-3 DM Wide this game).

In fact, it wasn't until reading this thread that the idea that someone may infer that even occurred to me...

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3 hours ago, eric1000 said:

/Agree

Nursery manager 2018.  I wonder if the manager can achieve the kind of status enjoyed by the likes of Ferguson where it didn't really matter what the players in the dressing room wanted as his word was law, didn't like it and out you went with the full backing of the board.

Eh? Ferguson treated different players in the squad very differently. He would dress down the Nevilles when they messed up because that's what they were used to, while often treating Ronaldo like a wayward son.

This idea that he ruled with a unwavering rod is false. He understood that kind of human psychology very well. Even did a lecture on it at Harvard after retirement

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The biggest concern I have with this feature is the interaction between the player expectation and the squad happiness. If you're not playing in a top team (e.g. Real, United), players come very often with requests for contract renewal (in most cases asking for ridiculously high salaries that the team can't offer anyway) and requests for first team soccer (even though they are playing a lot and their status is not first-team/indispensable). If these issues occur much less often, then this feature will be a very interesting addition. If not it could be extremely frustrating to face coups all the time.

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1 hour ago, tmpusr said:

The biggest concern I have with this feature is the interaction between the player expectation and the squad happiness. If you're not playing in a top team (e.g. Real, United), players come very often with requests for contract renewal (in most cases asking for ridiculously high salaries that the team can't offer anyway) and requests for first team soccer (even though they are playing a lot and their status is not first-team/indispensable). If these issues occur much less often, then this feature will be a very interesting addition. If not it could be extremely frustrating to face coups all the time.

A problem with FM over the years has been with things like your 3rd string keeper who signed as a backup, starting to cry and whine about not getting first team football and upsetting the rest of the team because you don't give in to him.  If this has not been sorted out then the dynamics will be a disaster.  We should be able to tell players where they rank in the squad apart from simply 'backup'.  I want my 3rd string keeper to know that he is 3rd in the pecking order when he signs for the club so that there can be no mistakes as to his importance.  Same applies for the other positions.

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6 minutes ago, eric1000 said:

A problem with FM over the years has been with things like your 3rd string keeper who signed as a backup, starting to cry and whine about not getting first team football and upsetting the rest of the team because you don't give in to him.  If this has not been sorted out then the dynamics will be a disaster.  We should be able to tell players where they rank in the squad apart from simply 'backup'.  I want my 3rd string keeper to know that he is 3rd in the pecking order when he signs for the club so that there can be no mistakes as to his importance.  Same applies for the other positions.

You are telling him though - You have told him he has "backup" status but then don't give the required amount of games to match that status.

As usual the issue is your understanding of the term "backup" is different to what "backup" means in FM.

TBH I almost never have an issue with players and interacting with them.  When one approaches me which is on average 2/3 times a season I look at their complaint and decide how much I agree with their issue.  Once I've decided if they have a fair complaint I choose the option which I feel best fits.  If they don't agree with my decision thats fine and sometimes this results in them moving on.

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48 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

You are telling him though - You have told him he has "backup" status but then don't give the required amount of games to match that status.

As usual the issue is your understanding of the term "backup" is different to what "backup" means in FM.

In this case, it could be interesting to have the ability to put this in numbers when signing a contract. E.g. you should expect to play 10 games/season (or for instance 5% of the games in the season). If he gets this playing time (or more) then he should be happy, otherwise he should complain. I'm not sure if this is something that happens irl tbh. Maybe however it could be part of the interaction with the player.

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3 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

You are telling him though - You have told him he has "backup" status but then don't give the required amount of games to match that status.

As usual the issue is your understanding of the term "backup" is different to what "backup" means in FM.

TBH I almost never have an issue with players and interacting with them.  When one approaches me which is on average 2/3 times a season I look at their complaint and decide how much I agree with their issue.  Once I've decided if they have a fair complaint I choose the option which I feel best fits.  If they don't agree with my decision thats fine and sometimes this results in them moving on.

Number 4 mate.  Nothing wrong with my understanding of the term.  If he aint needed for the entire season then he doesn't get to play.

BACKUP

noun

1.
a person or thing that supports or reinforces another.
2.
a musician or singer or group of musicians or singers accompanying asoloist:
a singer with a three-man backup that plays cello, bass, and guitar.
3.
an overflow or accumulation due to stoppage, malfunctioning, etc.:
a sewage backup; a backup of cars at the tollbooth.
4.
a person, plan, device, etc., kept in reserve to serve as a substitute, ifneeded. 
5.
Computers.
  1. a copy or duplicate version, especially of a file, program, or entirecomputer system, retained for use in the event that the original isin some way rendered unusable.
  2. a procedure to follow in such an event.
6.
Bowling. a ball that curves in a direction corresponding to the bowlinghand of the bowler.
adjective
7.
(of a person, plan, device, etc.) held in reserve as a substitute ifneeded:
a backup driver; a backup generator.
8.
performing a secondary or supporting function:
A drummer and guitarist are the singer's backup musicians.

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6 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

As usual the issue is your understanding of the term "backup" is different to what "backup" means in FM.

I agree here. The backup in FM-terms does not mean someone who won't play a match unless a massive injury crisis happens like some seem to think. A backup wants his fair share of games. I think I read a good overview here on the forums once, but I can't find it.

I do think there is a role missing though. The same as Liverpool had last year with Alex Manninger. A kind of, "you don't play unless we had an emergency"-role. Like a backup of backups. Though, I usually try to have the youngsters fill out those roles, sometime you might want someone older....

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1 hour ago, XaW said:

 

I do think there is a role missing though. The same as Liverpool had last year with Alex Manninger. A kind of, "you don't play unless we had an emergency"-role.

There’s no logical reason why the current backup status in FM cannot be changed this definition, in fact this should be the definition as I suspect this or something similar is what people will answer when asked to describe a backup.

What would be required is a change to player contract interest with fewer players being willing to accept a backup role based on their hidden personality attributes.

 

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19 minutes ago, Barside said:

There’s no logical reason why the current backup status in FM cannot be changed this definition, in fact this should be the definition as I suspect this or something similar is what people will answer when asked to describe a backup.

What would be required is a change to player contract interest with fewer players being willing to accept a backup role based on their hidden personality attributes.

 

Well, I agree! I would like to see players with more realistic demands. For me Key players are playing every match they are fit for, except some unimportant cups. First teamers almost the same, but I'm more inclined to leave them our following a bad streak. Rotation play somewhere between 70% and 30% per cent of the matches. Backups play in the unimportant cups and in an injury crisis. Youth players get their chances every now and then. This is how I would assume it would be.

I would rather my backup player coming to me and reasoning for why he should get more matches because he feels he is skilled enough to be a rotation player rather than demanding matches. Then I can assess if I agree with him or not. I would also want him to acknowledge that we went out early in a cup this season so his chances will be limited due to fewer games.

I don't know how well this will be represented in FM18, but I'm hoping to find out soon enough.

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18 hours ago, CaptainSa said:

People wanting to see dramatic year on year improvements really don't understand how yearly releases work, do they? Sometimes getting stuff in the game as a foundation for expanding and tweaking for the game after is going to happen - case in point, data analysts and sports scientists.

This seems like a good improvement to what was already on the back-end.

I have absolutely no problem with this kind of development of the game :) .. what I do have a problem with, is them charging 60 bucks for each release (plus you now have to pay for the editor), when only a few new features and enhancements are made to the game. This feels more like a 30 USD game, as it is basically the same experience as last year and the year before, with often minor (overall) changes.

Non-sports games are often developed on new engines with completely new mechanincs, graphics, gameplay elements etc. .. and are still sold at 60 bucks. I got a 40 USD expansion to X-Com2 that almost felt like a whole new game.

The feature creep in the game can sometimes feel like they are in there to justify the price tag of the game.

Now I don't hate new features, and if dynamics are implemented correctly it can help and expand on the player relationships in the game, that used to be a huge mystery. Sadly with SI's track record of implementing something new like this, it will probably have to balanced a lot over patches, and as others have mentioned, we'll see whole squad revolts when selling highly liked backup players.

I just feel we get too little for the money required.

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7 hours ago, eric1000 said:

Number 4 mate.  Nothing wrong with my understanding of the term.  If he aint needed for the entire season then he doesn't get to play.

Honestly, that just proves my point.

What you expect from the term "Backup" is different from how a player in FM sees it.

A backup squad member is a member of the first team and expects to start first team games albeit not as many as higher squad status players.  I did get a response from a SI staff member a couple of years ago and I think for backup the figure was about 10% of games.  Thats not a hard limit as personality and possibly other factors such as favoured team/staff/players + being a former youth player possiblly alters that on a player by player basis.

GK is probably the hardest area to give players games at but you should be aiming to give a backup keeper at least say five starts a season.  If you don't they will generally become restless and want more first team action.  I have a 3rd choice backup keeper currently who hasn't played at all this season.  He is a former youth player which possibly helps but he hasn't complained yet but I'm prepared for it if/when he does.  I can't promise him more game time so when he does raise the issue I'll agree to let him move on.  It won't be an issue and eventually he'll be sold or released when his contract ends.

 

EDIT

I can't find the discussion I was looking for but below is a quote from a SI staff member regarding expectations for each squad status:

On 07/11/2015 at 02:21, John Schofield said:

The rough rule with players is key players want to start in 60% of games, first team 50% and rotation 25%.

Edit: this is over the last 10-15 games

Edited by Cougar2010

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The problem with that is the FM definition & application is detached from reality, add in that there is no breakdown in FM & it’s not surprising that most people get undone in this area.

My hope is that John & Keith have collaborated to change what a backup would expect in FM18z

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19 minutes ago, Barside said:

The problem with that is the FM definition & application is detached from reality, add in that there is no breakdown in FM & it’s not surprising that most people get undone in this area.

My hope is that John & Keith have collaborated to change what a backup would expect in FM18z

In terms of being detached from reality I don't really agree.  In general I think most footballers want to play.  Some players might come into a club (or promoted from a youth team) knowing that they have to prove themselves to get a chance but eventually they'll either get that chance or become disillusioned which will lead to them moving on.

Same with players who lose their places, they might stick it out for a while and fight for their place but if they don't get it they'll also eventually move on.

The main difference is how long they are prepared to wait which is reflected in FM in their personalities.

In terms of GKs Begovic is a good RL example.  He went from being No 1 at Stoke to being backup at Chelsea but I'm sure he felt like he could challenge for the starting spot.  19 apps in two years wasn't enough for him despite being on a four year contract so he made it known he wanted to leave without kicking up a fuss and joined Bournemouth in the summer.

Much like other areas of FM I feel like whatever you call it would cause confusion for some people, its not really about what you call something but how SI communicate what it represents to the user.  Perhaps tmpusr has the right idea above and as well as the squad status you would agree a minimum amount of apps per season.  To a lesser extent maybe a tooltip over the squad status would be enough. 

 

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2 hours ago, StormenDK said:

I have absolutely no problem with this kind of development of the game :) .. what I do have a problem with, is them charging 60 bucks for each release (plus you now have to pay for the editor), when only a few new features and enhancements are made to the game. This feels more like a 30 USD game, as it is basically the same experience as last year and the year before, with often minor (overall) changes.

Non-sports games are often developed on new engines with completely new mechanincs, graphics, gameplay elements etc. .. and are still sold at 60 bucks. I got a 40 USD expansion to X-Com2 that almost felt like a whole new game.

The feature creep in the game can sometimes feel like they are in there to justify the price tag of the game.

Now I don't hate new features, and if dynamics are implemented correctly it can help and expand on the player relationships in the game, that used to be a huge mystery. Sadly with SI's track record of implementing something new like this, it will probably have to balanced a lot over patches, and as others have mentioned, we'll see whole squad revolts when selling highly liked backup players.

I just feel we get too little for the money required.

For me, what is turning me off the game that I have played for so many years is the fact that the tactics, AI and match engine have not even reached a minimal level of expectation for a football management game. 

I used to just enjoy the game without thinking too much else. But as I get older and develop a better understanding of football I realise how woefully inadequate SI is in terms of the tactical aspect.

Football has moved on heaps in terms of tactics. I do not profess to be an expert in tactics but even with the little knowledge that I have, I cannot even implement it on my team and the individual players. It is frustrating and almost criminal for a game that prides itself as the best in the world with regards to realism to the actual game. 

I believe that the diehards are those who are still relatively young. Because once they start having a deeper insight on football they will probably realise what I found out, and chuck the game aside. 

My two cents worth is this: Rather than trying to add more fluff (which will probably create more issues, which will then put the bigger issues in the backseat) to justify the price tag, I think SI should spend the next two-three seasons to focus on improving the main aspects of the game, and releasing them at a discounted price. I believe doing this will bring back the fans they have lost over the past few years. 

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25 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

In terms of being detached from reality I don't really agree.  In general I think most footballers want to play.  Some players might come into a club (or promoted from a youth team) knowing that they have to prove themselves to get a chance but eventually they'll either get that chance or become disillusioned which will lead to them moving on.

Same with players who lose their places, they might stick it out for a while and fight for their place but if they don't get it they'll also eventually move on.

The main difference is how long they are prepared to wait which is reflected in FM in their personalities.

In terms of GKs Begovic is a good RL example.  He went from being No 1 at Stoke to being backup at Chelsea but I'm sure he felt like he could challenge for the starting spot.  19 apps in two years wasn't enough for him despite being on a four year contract so he made it known he wanted to leave without kicking up a fuss and joined Bournemouth in the summer.

Much like other areas of FM I feel like whatever you call it would cause confusion for some people, its not really about what you call something but how SI communicate what it represents to the user.  Perhaps tmpusr has the right idea above and as well as the squad status you would agree a minimum amount of apps per season.  To a lesser extent maybe a tooltip over the squad status would be enough. 

 

Surely Form has got to come into it Cougar, If a player is out of form why should he expect to play, it is up to him to work harder and try and regain his form.

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1 minute ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Surely Form has got to come into it Cougar, If a player is out of form why should he expect to play, it is up to him to work harder and try and regain his form.

Form is part of it and maybe a player who recognises he is in poor form is prepared to wait longer before raising an issue but he'll still want to play in general.

Eventually he'll reach a trigger point where he feels he can't wait any longer whatever his form, you can't prove yourself if you aren't playing games.

In FM there are also player interactions regarding form, I haven't used them that much but you do have the option of talking to players about improving both form and areas of their game which are leading to poor performances (STs not scoring enough for example).

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13 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Form is part of it and maybe a player who recognises he is in poor form is prepared to wait longer before raising an issue but he'll still want to play in general.

Eventually he'll reach a trigger point where he feels he can't wait any longer whatever his form, you can't prove yourself if you aren't playing games.

In FM there are also player interactions regarding form, I haven't used them that much but you do have the option of talking to players about improving both form and areas of their game which are leading to poor performances (STs not scoring enough for example).

I usually give an out of form player a few games in the reserves to see if he can regain it, especially STs who are not scoring, as often this is down to confidence and if they can score a few goals in the reserves it can help.

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20 hours ago, XaW said:

Ahh... Refreshing to see someone else who have at least heard of iterative programming. Take one step at a time, too big changes will often create big issues that are hard to resolve.

Think most have heard of it ... just not seen it in action enough.

You can be smug and sarcastic "ooo these idiots don't understand that we should accept dynamics will be turd for the first couple of years but then it will get better, that's how programming works"

...but where does your confidence come from? Where is the iterative programming with 20 year old features like squad building, training, media interactions? This stuff has been stagnant for years.

I think it's a fair and genuine concern to a lot of FM'ers that we get unnecessary new features in raw state, while old features that really need a remodel or improvement just get ignored.

Since this feature they have released improvement to scouting and some new roles though, which is very positive.

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3 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Honestly, that just proves my point.

What you expect from the term "Backup" is different from how a player in FM sees it.

A backup squad member is a member of the first team and expects to start first team games albeit not as many as higher squad status players.  I did get a response from a SI staff member a couple of years ago and I think for backup the figure was about 10% of games.  Thats not a hard limit as personality and possibly other factors such as favoured team/staff/players + being a former youth player possiblly alters that on a player by player basis.

GK is probably the hardest area to give players games at but you should be aiming to give a backup keeper at least say five starts a season.  If you don't they will generally become restless and want more first team action.  I have a 3rd choice backup keeper currently who hasn't played at all this season.  He is a former youth player which possibly helps but he hasn't complained yet but I'm prepared for it if/when he does.  I can't promise him more game time so when he does raise the issue I'll agree to let him move on.  It won't be an issue and eventually he'll be sold or released when his contract ends.

 

EDIT

I can't find the discussion I was looking for but below is a quote from a SI staff member regarding expectations for each squad status:

 

 

Perira ( man utd 2nd string keeper )  3 appearences

Johnstone ( man utd 3rd string keeper ) 0 appearences & will probably play in one or two cup games this season if he is lucky

http://www.manutd.com/en/Players-And-Staff/First-Team.aspx

Both are considered members of the first team squad.  Honestly Cougar if you stopped waving the Si flag everytime someone says anything negative about the game and instead looked at the issue without the rose tinted glasses the problems would become self evident.  You do not see jhonstone whining about the lack of 1st team chances and you certainly don't see the rest of the dressing room unhappy because he isn't between the sticks.  In past iterations FM has been too hardcore when it comes to players acting like children.  Sure, some players are like that in real life but they are in the minority.  Look at Sterling when he wanted the move to Man City, his behaviour was that of a three year old throwing his teddy in the corner and far from taking the dressing room with him, they instead rallied behind the club as did most of the pundits.  He got his move and I suspect the rest of the squad by that time were happy to see him go.

It isn't the fact that certain players will act this way that is the problem, it's the inevitable snowball effect that comes after.  It would be good for the game imo if the Ai reflected the reactions of others to these shenanigans more realistically, maybe even with a few level headed senior players telling the baby to grow up.

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5 minutes ago, eric1000 said:

It isn't the fact that certain players will act this way that is the problem, it's the inevitable snowball effect that comes after.  It would be good for the game imo if the Ai reflected the reactions of others to these shenanigans more realistically, maybe even with a few level headed senior players telling the baby to grow up.

Isn't this the entire point of Dynamics? A 3rd choice keeper won't have much influence in the squad, so isn't going to get much (if any) backup when he complains about game time. Not that this is even an issue now, but it looks to be even more fleshed out with more information in FM18.

Also, remember, a lot of the time when these players do complain about lack of game time, it's because they realise they're not good enough, so they're thinking of moving on.

Players will also have different social groups etc, so not everyone in the squad will see eye to eye on the same things either.

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2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Isn't this the entire point of Dynamics? A 3rd choice keeper won't have much influence in the squad, so isn't going to get much (if any) backup when he complains about game time. Not that this is even an issue now, but it looks to be even more fleshed out with more information in FM18.

Also, remember, a lot of the time when these players do complain about lack of game time, it's because they realise they're not good enough, so they're thinking of moving on.

Luis Suarez was a very influential player but not many of his team mates supported his eating habits on the pitch.

I just hope that Si get this aspect right this time around.

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4 minutes ago, eric1000 said:

Perira ( man utd 2nd string keeper )  3 appearences

Johnstone ( man utd 3rd string keeper ) 0 appearences & will probably play in one or two cup games this season if he is lucky

http://www.manutd.com/en/Players-And-Staff/First-Team.aspx

Both are considered members of the first team squad. 

Yes both are listed on the first team section of the Man Utd website but when you look at their individual circumstances you can draw a parallel to FM.

Both are Man Utd youth players who are on the fringe of the main squad.  Pereira is 21yo and spent 6 months last season on loan before being recalled to be 3rd choice.  Johnstone is older and has been on loan a lot over the last few years.  Within FM Pereira as 3rd choice probably wouldn't be complaining at this stage even if he didn't play (I have a 3rd choice GK in my current save who hasn't played once this season and hasn't complained).

Johnstone clearly wants football which is the part of the reason he has been out on loan so much.

While you state that Johnstone hasn't been complaining you honestly have no idea what discussions have taken place between the player & the staff at Man Utd.

 

4 minutes ago, eric1000 said:

Honestly Cougar if you stopped waving the Si flag everytime someone says anything negative about the game and instead looked at the issue without the rose tinted glasses the problems would become self evident.

This I do take issue with as I'm getting a bit sick of it.

Explaining how a feature works or why a user has got a message is not waving the SI flag as you put it, its simply helping the user understand the game.

In terms of other issues I look at the pros & cons and come to my own neutral conclusion whichever side of the argument that falls on.  If that means I'm not a sheep that follows the herd thats just fine with me.

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16 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Isn't this the entire point of Dynamics? A 3rd choice keeper won't have much influence in the squad, so isn't going to get much (if any) backup when he complains about game time. Not that this is even an issue now, but it looks to be even more fleshed out with more information in FM18.

Also, remember, a lot of the time when these players do complain about lack of game time, it's because they realise they're not good enough, so they're thinking of moving on.

Players will also have different social groups etc, so not everyone in the squad will see eye to eye on the same things either.

Exactly. I have basically never run into big trouble with player interactions. The only thing required being good at this (to me) is that you keep on eye of things on every continue clicking and also read very well why a player is complaining. On most of the cases the interactions actually do go in logical way and you can reason the players well enough. 

For me it's only positive if players who just holiday between games and fast forward the game will be punished for their sloppiness. Player interactions like tactics or anything else in the game are not too demanding or time consuming as long as you pay a little effort and do sensible choices and in terms of player interactions the game only requires a little bit of understanding. 

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1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

Yes both are listed on the first team section of the Man Utd website but when you look at their individual circumstances you can draw a parallel to FM.

Both are Man Utd youth players who are on the fringe of the main squad.  Pereira is 21yo and spent 6 months last season on loan before being recalled to be 3rd choice.  Johnstone is older and has been on loan a lot over the last few years.  Within FM Pereira as 3rd choice probably wouldn't be complaining at this stage even if he didn't play (I have a 3rd choice GK in my current save who hasn't played once this season and hasn't complained).

Johnstone clearly wants football which is the part of the reason he has been out on loan so much.

While you state that Johnstone hasn't been complaining you honestly have no idea what discussions have taken place between the player & the staff at Man Utd.

 

This I do take issue with as I'm getting a bit sick of it.

Explaining how a feature works or why a user has got a message is not waving the SI flag as you put it, its simply helping the user understand the game.

In terms of other issues I look at the pros & cons and come to my own neutral conclusion whichever side of the argument that falls on.  If that means I'm not a sheep that follows the herd thats just fine with me.

Well said Cougar whilst I may not agree with all of your comments, I find you a fairly balanced poster and certainly not a SI lap dog

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4 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

Think most have heard of it ... just not seen it in action enough.

You can be smug and sarcastic "ooo these idiots don't understand that we should accept dynamics will be turd for the first couple of years but then it will get better, that's how programming works"

...but where does your confidence come from? Where is the iterative programming with 20 year old features like squad building, training, media interactions? This stuff has been stagnant for years.

I think it's a fair and genuine concern to a lot of FM'ers that we get unnecessary new features in raw state, while old features that really need a remodel or improvement just get ignored.

Since this feature they have released improvement to scouting and some new roles though, which is very positive.

I have not called anyone idiots or said that we should accept poor solutions. That was a bit tongue-in-cheek, I'll admit, but it was not as harsh as calling you an idiot, was it?

How do you know it's poor? Have you tried it? You ask where the confidence comes from? Well, allow me to ask where your negativity comes from? In my opinion the game have been better each and every year. While I don't agree with all they have added or removed, the total gaming experience have improved for each addition. Have there been bugs? Poor additions? Error? Of course! But the biggest ones have been fixed in the next versions. I would at least give it a chance before dooming it?

I do agree with you that tactics need an upgrade, but that have nothing to do with Dynamics? I assume there are different teams who are working on different topics and tactics would need to be closely matches with the Match Engine team. Dynamics are not that closely related to the match and more to squad management.

Hopefully, we'll get a new video shortly regarding tactics and the ME, then we can take a look at your arguments and see if they are valid.

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12 minutes ago, XaW said:

where your negativity comes from?

Social Media :D

That's by the by ... I'm simply pointing out that whilst iterative programming in theory is a logical defence of new features.. it's by the same sword I could carve up a lot of old stagnant features.

Dynamics should be OK on release as a lot of it was there already by hook or crook, but I'm still bitter and scarred by social media being released in such a poor state

 

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3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Social Media :D

That's by the by ... I'm simply pointing out that whilst iterative programming in theory is a logical defence of new features.. it's by the same sword I could carve up a lot of old stagnant features.

Dynamics should be OK on release as a lot of it was there already by hook or crook, but I'm still bitter and scarred by social media being released in such a poor state

Heh, well, I'm all for stating ones opinion, but only after I've tried it. Dynamics may be a horrible mess for all I know, but I won't know until I mess around with it for a while. Until I know, I'm positive since I have faith that the game will improve because of it.

The social media was a good idea, but the implementation wasn't the best. It got too static to be of any big news, other than the occasional message. When my striker scored 5 goals and got 10.0 I don't think many fans would say that he was average. I hope it will be improved this time around, along with a properly implemented Dynamics! :)

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