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Neil Brock

Football Manager TV: Dynamics

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Great video!  Really looking forward to FM18!

Edited by Lobaeux4

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Really happy about this feature! Squad harmony was something that always felt a bit underplayed. Player interactions still look very one dimensional but hopefully dynamics will allow them to build on that in the next few years. Definitely a step in the right direction!

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hopefully they'll have sorted out the number of youth prospects who demand first team football or you'll be undone by a coup of u21 players and disaffected back up goalkeepers.

Why do I get the feeling this is going to be massively overpowered initially and have to be scaled back as clubs implode over player revolts.

 

 

 

Edited by Swindon69

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4 minutes ago, Swindon69 said:

hopefully they'll have sorted out the number of youth prospects who demand first team football or you'll be undone by a coup of u21 players and disaffected back up goalkeepers.

Why do I get the feeling this is going to be massively overpowered initially and have to be scaled back as clubs implode over player revolts.

 

 

 

That is my only concern with it,  after  a few months are we going to see a stack of  'unh' icons next to the majority of squad members in the teams in our league.  And the reason being 9 times out of 10, "Wants to leave as unhappy with treatment of team mate"  and see about a dozen players all listed by request, including major stars.  

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As long as scouting can give a good clue about the personality match of a new acquisition with the team, it should work.

Edited by Bunkerossian

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1 hour ago, ChelseaSince86 said:

That is my only concern with it,  after  a few months are we going to see a stack of  'unh' icons next to the majority of squad members in the teams in our league.  And the reason being 9 times out of 10, "Wants to leave as unhappy with treatment of team mate"  and see about a dozen players all listed by request, including major stars.  

I couldn't have put this any better.

The new feature pudding tends to be over-egged upon it's introduction. Lukaku, Morata and Jesus were not signed because of their personalities, yet I sense the game is about to wag its finger at me for not basing my signings on this.

In addition, how realistic is it for a first team lone striker to side with a back-up striker about not getting picked, even though if that were to happen, it would be at the expense of the first teamer.

Bonkers.

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7 minutes ago, martplfc1 said:

Sorry to sound miserable, but this seems like another feature that brings you little joy for getting it right but causes huge problems if you get it wrong.

I'm not a psychotherapist, just let me buy players because their stats are good and fit my style of play.

Hopefully this isn't too overbearing and hasn't had too much time spent on its development to the detriment of the ME. 

 

This is what FMT is for, introduce additional layers of management like this to the simulation version while keeping Touch closer to the classic (name should never have changed :D ) core elements of CM.

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5 hours ago, Swindon69 said:

hopefully they'll have sorted out the number of youth prospects who demand first team football or you'll be undone by a coup of u21 players and disaffected back up goalkeepers.

Why do I get the feeling this is going to be massively overpowered initially and have to be scaled back as clubs implode over player revolts.

 

3 hours ago, martplfc1 said:

Sorry to sound miserable, but this seems like another feature that brings you little joy for getting it right but causes huge problems if you get it wrong.

I'm not a psychotherapist, just let me buy players because their stats are good and fit my style of play.

Hopefully this isn't too overbearing and hasn't had too much time spent on its development to the detriment of the ME. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, FrazT said:

Ambivalent about this new feature as I have been concerned for a few versions now that player interaction has been overplayed and far too much manager time is taken up with questionable demands from players.  Will be interesting to see if this improves the current module or not

Same. I've been holding off on the "contract extension" pre-release purchase until some more details came out, and this has actually made me think I'll wait a few months until it's working as intended.

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8 hours ago, martplfc1 said:

Sorry to sound miserable, but this seems like another feature that brings you little joy for getting it right but causes huge problems if you get it wrong.

I'm not a psychotherapist, just let me buy players because their stats are good and fit my style of play.

Hopefully this isn't too overbearing and hasn't had too much time spent on its development to the detriment of the ME. 

 

I'm with you here mate. 

 

I don't think people have been screaming out for player dynamics. This is just going to had a layer of complexity and is going to be even more confusing when your team's form crashes just because two of your players have moved social groups.

 

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9 hours ago, rdbayly said:

I couldn't have put this any better.

The new feature pudding tends to be over-egged upon it's introduction. Lukaku, Morata and Jesus were not signed because of their personalities, yet I sense the game is about to wag its finger at me for not basing my signings on this.

In addition, how realistic is it for a first team lone striker to side with a back-up striker about not getting picked, even though if that were to happen, it would be at the expense of the first teamer.

Bonkers.

Absolutely this. It will be a good feature if implemented properly but skill and quality should - in most cases - trump all. 

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43 minutes ago, Stripeyfox2011 said:

I'm with you here mate. 

 

I don't think people have been screaming out for player dynamics. This is just going to had a layer of complexity and is going to be even more confusing when your team's form crashes just because two of your players have moved social groups.

 

As a seasoned pro on the game I'm looking forward to this - anything to make the game more difficult and complex. IMO the solution would be that each time a player comes to you with an issue or needs disciplining etc.. click the dynamics screen and check if he has moved social groups, so you can give the best decision you can at the time to stop the form from crashing.

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It doesn't look like it's going to give us many more issues. If anything, this looks to be more transparent about what's happening at the club. You'll also be able to pick your battles easier now that it's clear who is in the same social groups etc. Everyone's always saying we need more info and now we're getting it, but still there are complaints and this without even trying it first. Teh interwebz, eh?

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People aren’t moaning about the information it’s showing. We’re more a bit sceptical on what this means under the hood - how much important will be put on players being in the same social group rather than players just being good? How will I know if my drop in form is the result of my new signing not getting along with a team leader or is it just my tactics?

I’d be intrigued to actually see the mechanics of this and how it affects matches but I guess we’ll never really know. 

As long as it helps certain teams but doesn’t become the dominating factor for most, then it won’t be a problem. 

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I'm not moaning about getting the information I just don't want to be in a position where getting rid of my 3rd choice left back causes a revolt because he's good mates with a chunk of my starting 11. So a lot is going to depend on how it's implemented.

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24 minutes ago, DP said:

People aren’t moaning about the information it’s showing. We’re more a bit sceptical on what this means under the hood - how much important will be put on players being in the same social group rather than players just being good? How will I know if my drop in form is the result of my new signing not getting along with a team leader or is it just my tactics?

I’d be intrigued to actually see the mechanics of this and how it affects matches but I guess we’ll never really know. 

As long as it helps certain teams but doesn’t become the dominating factor for most, then it won’t be a problem. 

The first screen we see around 55 seconds in, shows that because of poor team gelling, attributes such as Positioning and Vision are affected. We've had squad gelling/team cohesion that affected teams and now we're getting more info. Now the info there says the players are blending well, but there are cohesion issues still.

 

How to tell whether it's your tactic or cohesion? The same way we've always been able to tell. In FM17, I can see misplaced passes, for example. I can see a pass intended to be played to the winger that should reach him, but the pass was played just as he started his run, so the ball ended up behind him and out of play. Timing issue because of a lack of understanding/communication. That's the type of thing I see less and less as the season goes on and my squad starts gelling and getting more familiar with the tactic.

I highly doubt a single player can cause a drop in form, but even so, if you see that player under-performing, you have the info to say he's not fitting in with the rest of the squad. Play someone else either for an entire match or as a sub and see if it's making a change. This is the sort of thing we'd be able to judge when we get hands on with the game.

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I like it, I think it is going to make us think a little more carefully about how we build our squads, and the types of personalities we sign.

I'm also interested to see what happens when people sign loads of strong personalities just for tutoring people, can you have too many leaders?

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28 minutes ago, Swindon69 said:

I'm not moaning about getting the information I just don't want to be in a position where getting rid of my 3rd choice left back causes a revolt because he's good mates with a chunk of my starting 11. So a lot is going to depend on how it's implemented.

It's not even happening now, so don't see a reason why it would in FM18.

Regardless, you can see at around 3:45 that the selected team leader (who has the most influence) has been at the club a while, has a high rep and ability while also being the captain (so Leadership, presumably), so if that's an example of the criteria, a third choice left back won't have 3 of the 4, so isn't going to be very influential. You should be able to sell him without any issue.

There may be bugs of course, but it does seem like this sort of potential issue has been considered.

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Great new feature.

Managers who tend to hussle the squad at the beginning and sell/buy loads of players, should be warned.

It adds realism and makes you tink twice to sell that overpayed second striker if he's high in the pyramid.

 

Of course bug issues are possible, but that's just wait and see.

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11 hours ago, Barside said:

This is what FMT is for, introduce additional layers of management like this to the simulation version while keeping Touch closer to the classic (name should never have changed :D ) core elements of CM.

FMT is just too arcady for me. I'd like something in between - a stripped back version of the original (I.e. One which looks like the original rather than throwing a rainbow at me when I click on a player). If we could get to a stage where you could choose features prior to starting (like you can for attribute masking, etc.) I'd be very happy. I appreciate that might be difficult for SI to implement though.

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It is a decent feature but will prob create more problems or become too cumbersome to handle. 

how do SI know which players are good friends? 

what is it based on?

nationality and age? it is too simplistic a view if that is the case. 

moreno and coutinho are great pals but they are from two different countries and speak somewhat similar but different languages. 

at the end of the day, the players are paid professionals, and they still have to do a job, regardless of how much they like or do not like their team mates. 

and of course we have seen cases of players not being great pals off the pitch but playing very well together. 

this feature, thus can cause more problems if not done properly. 

it is a little add-on feature but to me, not a big leap. well at least not enough for me to make a purchase yet. 

SI have bigger issues to settle before even this needs to be improved. 

keeping fingers crossed for a massive improvement in tactics. 

Edited by theballstopshere

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As i have said elsewhere it is an interesting feature, and should be fine if issues with tactics and the ME have been addressed, but a bit pointless if they havn't

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I'm hoping that Si get the dynamics balance right regarding players who don't get on. There are numerous examples of team mates who don't get on - but on the pitch have worked together well and have been part of a successful / championship winning teams:

Tommy Smith / Emlyn Hughes (Liverpool) & Teddy Sherringham and Andy Cole (Man United) to name a few.

I'm hoping maturity and professionalism will also be taken into account when determining such fractious relationships.



 

 

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it needs to be implemented with a lot of thought for it to work well. 

but the more I think about it the more I think that this new feature will open up another can of worms. 

as it is SI already have more pressing issues to fix.

 

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This feature doesn't look so hot. It continues SI's policy of putting more and more focus on players mental well being without fixing some of the other core issues. This seems like something that only the player will be able to manage properly and the AI will have MASSIVE troubles with. I fully expect that before the 1st patch you'll have major transfer issues in AI squads due to squad unhappiness. 

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Would rather they concentrated on issues that need fixing rather than creating another segment that will cause more problems . And when are they going to stop these useless uninformative videos . How about a proper list of new features and or changes ???

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1 hour ago, theballstopshere said:

as it is SI already have more pressing issues to fix.

 

28 minutes ago, grasu said:

It continues SI's policy of putting more and more focus on players mental well being without fixing some of the other core issues.

 

5 minutes ago, prot651 said:

Would rather they concentrated on issues that need fixing rather than creating another segment that will cause more problems.

I don't mean to call out you guys, but I clearly remember last year, and the year before that, that most people criticized SI for NOT implementing new features and only focusing on getting the features already in the game and making them work better. They got lot of messages in here stating that the game lacked anything new. I don't think they can win, no matter what they focus on, when I see critique as the ones in here.

I fully agree there are issues that I hope SI have worked out for FM18, but I also think that Dynamics seems to be a good addition. Not because it's a fully new feature, rather it just help clear som issues with information for most players.

There is already a form of group dynamics in the game. Player have other players they like better or worse, and some players they will side with against the manager and others were they stand with the gaffer. The new screen will, hopefully, make this much clearer for the manager and help out in getting the feedback needed to improve.

My only concern is whether or not our interactions with the players themselves are going to be good enough, and that players recognize that their antics will have a reaction from the management. Such as outrageous wage demands might end up in the player getting sold. I hope the other players will understand why the player was sold even though he might have been an important player. Or at least letting the manager justify their actions properly in dialogue.

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13 minutes ago, XaW said:

I hope the other players will understand why the player was sold even though he might have been an important player. Or at least letting the manager justify their actions properly in dialogue.

The lack of such dialogue options to justify and rationalise your decisions to the players is exactly what makes people skeptical about how dynamics will function.

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Is dynamics really a new feature or just something that was hidden from the player in earlier versions?

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8 minutes ago, chadnw said:

Is dynamics really a new feature or just something that was hidden from the player in earlier versions?

Not sure, but specific mention to its impact on vision and other attributes made me sit up and and take notice. This is new isn't it?

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1 minute ago, rdbayly said:

Not sure, but specific mention to its impact on vision and other attributes made me sit up and and take notice. This is new isn't it?

I suspect a good chunk of it was already in the game, just not as obvious.

Examples are the likes of "Player X is having to adapt to fit into the squad" which is on scout/coach reports and players complaining and taking sides when you are perceived to mistreat a player.

I don't think anyone knows if it had an effect on the pitch in prior FMs so that may or may not be new.

 

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I smell a recipe for disaster with this feature. I can almost guarantee this will not work straight off the bat, thus affecting other aspects of the game in turn. This will eventually only become playable until around the 3rd patch which by that time you have wasted half of the gaming year for this edition. I wish SI would concentrate on perfecting key elements of the game first i.e. Match Engine, Training & Media before adding features such as this into the fold.

The phrase 'Walk before you can run' springs firmly to mind on this one im afraid.

Hugely disappointed SI, will not be pre-ordering. Will gauge feedback on release & then hopefully purchase if all seems good.

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49 minutes ago, XaW said:

I don't mean to call out you guys, but I clearly remember last year, and the year before that, that most people criticized SI for NOT implementing new features and only focusing on getting the features already in the game and making them work better. They got lot of messages in here stating that the game lacked anything new. I don't think they can win, no matter what they focus on, when I see critique as the ones in here.

I fully agree there are issues that I hope SI have worked out for FM18, but I also think that Dynamics seems to be a good addition. Not because it's a fully new feature, rather it just help clear som issues with information for most players.

There is already a form of group dynamics in the game. Player have other players they like better or worse, and some players they will side with against the manager and others were they stand with the gaffer. The new screen will, hopefully, make this much clearer for the manager and help out in getting the feedback needed to improve.

My only concern is whether or not our interactions with the players themselves are going to be good enough, and that players recognize that their antics will have a reaction from the management. Such as outrageous wage demands might end up in the player getting sold. I hope the other players will understand why the player was sold even though he might have been an important player. Or at least letting the manager justify their actions properly in dialogue.

I'm fully with you here. SI seem damned if they do and damned if they don't, add new features, everyone complains they haven't fixed stuff (which, for what it's worth, they almost certainly will have). Focus on polish, everyone complains about a lack of new features.

Improvements and new features are not mutually exclusive, and just because they've gone down one route, doesn't mean there's not plenty of work going on in other departments. It's also worth noting that several areas are developed separately, so not working on dynamics would not have meant that more work could be done on tactics or the ME, as these are worked on by separate teams.

The other thing for me is that there seems to be very little in terms of groundbreaking new features they can actually add into the game.

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2 minutes ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

I smell a recipe for disaster with this feature. I can almost guarantee this will not work straight off the bat, thus affecting other aspects of the game in turn. This will eventually only become playable until around the 3rd patch which by that time you have wasted half of the gaming year for this edition. I wish SI would concentrate on perfecting key elements of the game first i.e. Match Engine, Training & Media before adding features such as this into the fold.

The phrase 'Walk before you can run' springs firmly to mind on this one im afraid.

Hugely disappointed SI, will not be pre-ordering. Will gauge feedback on release & then hopefully purchase if all seems good.

A part of this Dynamic thing is allready in the game, it's just more visible now with some important extra's.

SI is already walking and is starting to run right now.

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15 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

I'm fully with you here. SI seem damned if they do and damned if they don't, add new features, everyone complains they haven't fixed stuff (which, for what it's worth, they almost certainly will have). Focus on polish, everyone complains about a lack of new features.

Improvements and new features are not mutually exclusive, and just because they've gone down one route, doesn't mean there's not plenty of work going on in other departments. It's also worth noting that several areas are developed separately, so not working on dynamics would not have meant that more work could be done on tactics or the ME, as these are worked on by separate teams.

The other thing for me is that there seems to be very little in terms of groundbreaking new features they can actually add into the game.

Not sure I agree with you that SI will certainly have fixed things, there are issues with the game that have been there for years and not been fixed. Some things have been improved but not exactly fixed yet

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Just now, Tony Wright 747 said:

Not sure I agree with you that SI will certainly have fixed things, there are issues with the game that have been there for years and not been fixed. Some things have been improved but not exactly fixed yet

And there are plenty of things that have been fixed. Every year.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

And there is still plenty that havn't,

So what do you suggest? No new features til everything is fixed 100% working perfectly?

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1 hour ago, XaW said:

 

 

I don't mean to call out you guys, but I clearly remember last year, and the year before that, that most people criticized SI for NOT implementing new features and only focusing on getting the features already in the game and making them work better. They got lot of messages in here stating that the game lacked anything new. I don't think they can win, no matter what they focus on, when I see critique as the ones in here.

I fully agree there are issues that I hope SI have worked out for FM18, but I also think that Dynamics seems to be a good addition. Not because it's a fully new feature, rather it just help clear som issues with information for most players.

There is already a form of group dynamics in the game. Player have other players they like better or worse, and some players they will side with against the manager and others were they stand with the gaffer. The new screen will, hopefully, make this much clearer for the manager and help out in getting the feedback needed to improve.

My only concern is whether or not our interactions with the players themselves are going to be good enough, and that players recognize that their antics will have a reaction from the management. Such as outrageous wage demands might end up in the player getting sold. I hope the other players will understand why the player was sold even though he might have been an important player. Or at least letting the manager justify their actions properly in dialogue.

I don't disagree with you totally. I have nothing against SI having new features. This is something that I welcome, and I alluded to that in another post. 

In fact I don't think people are against them having new features.

It is the lack of effort shown towards tactics that is giving people grief. 

My issue is on how the main thrust of the game, the tactics, has not been improved upon for the longest time. 

This to me should be the most important thing they do: overhauling the tactics. 

If the tactics are still stuck in the 90s then nothing else they do will really give the game a quantum leap. 

Let's face it, whether you like it or not, this new "dynamics" is not really that big a leap. 

Yes it is a good feature to have, not a must though. 

If there is a ranking of what should be changed, improved or added upon I am sure most, if not everyone will say that the tactics will be top of the pile.  

 

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26 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

I'm fully with you here. SI seem damned if they do and damned if they don't, add new features, everyone complains they haven't fixed stuff (which, for what it's worth, they almost certainly will have). Focus on polish, everyone complains about a lack of new features.

Improvements and new features are not mutually exclusive, and just because they've gone down one route, doesn't mean there's not plenty of work going on in other departments. It's also worth noting that several areas are developed separately, so not working on dynamics would not have meant that more work could be done on tactics or the ME, as these are worked on by separate teams.

The other thing for me is that there seems to be very little in terms of groundbreaking new features they can actually add into the game.

Agreed. What else is there to add? Certainly something here and there, but in the grander scheme? Not much. Most of the bugs I have reported in the bugs sections have been fixed within a patch or a newer version. Though it don't seems like everyone knows the difference between bugs and their own thought of how the feature _should_ be. It's not a bug if you don't like how the feature works, it's a bug if the feature don't do what the developers have intended. Now, of course, that don't necessary mean the feature is implemented and working as well as is could. At least regarding the ME changing anything major will have a rough impact and might do more harm than good.

This doesn't mean I think the game is perfect, far from it, but I think that most versions and patches are getting better and better for each iteration. I might not always agree with the way things are working, but I'll post a report and get an answer (something not many other developers do, mind you!). If I don't like the answer I'll let SI know in a civil matter and then they can take the suggestion or not depending on how they want their game to work.

If they would do something to make me not want to buy the game anymore, then that's their right, but so far I'm getting my moneys worth as a satisfied costumer.

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22 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

I'm fully with you here. SI seem damned if they do and damned if they don't, add new features, everyone complains they haven't fixed stuff (which, for what it's worth, they almost certainly will have). Focus on polish, everyone complains about a lack of new features.

Improvements and new features are not mutually exclusive, and just because they've gone down one route, doesn't mean there's not plenty of work going on in other departments. It's also worth noting that several areas are developed separately, so not working on dynamics would not have meant that more work could be done on tactics or the ME, as these are worked on by separate teams.

The other thing for me is that there seems to be very little in terms of groundbreaking new features they can actually add into the game.

There is definitely an element of that. However, I'd argue they can market the improvements to necessary areas as features. i.e.

  • this years new feature is extra player movements (skills/tricks/running style) - fixing the issue that players have no (very little) unique traits in the ME.
  • new feature - tactical instructions split into pitch zones - fixing the lack of flexibility we currently have with huge tactical decisions like pressing

Instead we get something completely new - last year social media & brexit both of which are terrible

And this year we get dynamics, which was already under the hood, but now we get annoying screens with rubbish information see exhibits A and B below! Pros and Cons are a mirror of each other (remind you of social media responses at all?) and in the second picture I'm being told Zarate is pals with Holebas because of age and nationality! 3 year gap and a different continent! Sorry for being repetitive I have highlighted this in the main thread. But think it illustrates perfectly why a lot of us would rather see what we have get a good polish, than given new features in early stage implementation.

 

msupport.JPG

msuppp2.JPG

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5 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

So what do you suggest? No new features til everything is fixed 100% working perfectly?

You are taking it to the extreme. 

Tactics is the most important aspect of a football management game. 

But right now, tactics is so lacking it seems as though that part of the game is stuck in the 90s. 

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5 minutes ago, theballstopshere said:

You are taking it to the extreme. 

Tactics is the most important aspect of a football management game. 

But right now, tactics is so lacking it seems as though that part of the game is stuck in the 90s. 

Yeah, you're right, that is the extreme end of the spectrum, but I'm sure there are people out there that would be happy with that, equally there are people that won't.

And as for tactics, we don't know what's been done yet as it hasn't been announced, that doesn't mean it's nothing. The feature tease already acknowledged additional roles, but we won't know more til they tell us more.

 

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