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I was at work yesterday (Sunday - as I am now) and it was silly quiet. Sat on the forums here and saw this thread. 

Drew a load of formations with instructions and then, upon making it home, set to work.

I started unemployed, chose 1860 Munich from the jobs offered as they had three good candidates for targetmen up top - two aerial lads, and one pacy AND aerial lad.

Made a deep lying 442 with an aerial TMS and the pacy lad as a TMA up top. It works a dream at 3.Bundesliga level. Either the ball hits the TMS and the TMA runs on to it in the clear, or the TMA nods it back out of the box for the TMS to bang it in from 20yards.

Next step is to set up my defensive corners in true Pulis style with the wingers on the halfway line.

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On 09/12/2019 at 15:03, Boy_Wonda said:

I was at work yesterday (Sunday - as I am now) and it was silly quiet. Sat on the forums here and saw this thread. 

Drew a load of formations with instructions and then, upon making it home, set to work.

I started unemployed, chose 1860 Munich from the jobs offered as they had three good candidates for targetmen up top - two aerial lads, and one pacy AND aerial lad.

Made a deep lying 442 with an aerial TMS and the pacy lad as a TMA up top. It works a dream at 3.Bundesliga level. Either the ball hits the TMS and the TMA runs on to it in the clear, or the TMA nods it back out of the box for the TMS to bang it in from 20yards.

Next step is to set up my defensive corners in true Pulis style with the wingers on the halfway line.

Post some screens?

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On 27/11/2019 at 21:21, Peljam said:

So this is my current Hoof. I've moved on a bit from the one I had in the Dictate the Game article, and to be honest it is pretty similar to the tactic I used in FM19 (I've got the same name for the style!). Which is to be expected as the same principles apply.

 

I'm getting a lot of chances in the box now. Not excessive amounts but I'm getting very little in the way of shots outside the box, or from tight angles. I like to work out my xG and it has increased by a decent amount since swapping to this - by about .5 which on its own doesn't sound huge but it's moved me to about 2xG a game now which is a healthy amount for a minnow with a £500pw budget.

 

EDIT: I should add this tires players out. I've had to change the rest settings in training. The first two condition ratings (60-70 I think) are now no training as we can't kick and rush, and press, and survive.

Hoofharder.PNG

How well does this work in Premier League, and in current match engine.

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I've not tried this exact one in the top flight but I imagine it will depend partly on how teams approach you. If you are the underdog I think it will probably work reasonably well as teams will attack you and leave some space behind. If they are set up to defend you will struggle to break them down.

You need the right players as well. I imagine Burnley and Newcastle might have the players for it.

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1 hour ago, Peljam said:

I've not tried this exact one in the top flight but I imagine it will depend partly on how teams approach you. If you are the underdog I think it will probably work reasonably well as teams will attack you and leave some space behind. If they are set up to defend you will struggle to break them down.

You need the right players as well. I imagine Burnley and Newcastle might have the players for it.

I'm in my first season with Villa, got off to a good start but am dropping like a stone now.  Might give it a try, I can't do any worse.  Download Link?

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22 hours ago, Duke313 said:

Post some screens?

I unfortunately moved on to Hull with three games of the season left. Saved them from relegation. Bought a few of my players with me. Was chastised for not playing attractive football... Changed things about a bit, then moved to Premiership West Brom in the January of season two. Hoofball did not go well there... So, quit the save. When I'm at my laptop and not work, i'll attach my tactic.

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@Duke313

From my experience you cant have such a huge gap between the forward and the rest of the team, I use a lower line of Engagment as well as a lower defensive line and with this managed to shithouse my way to top 4 finish with St Rennais

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On 03/01/2020 at 19:08, Duke313 said:

I'm in my first season with Villa, got off to a good start but am dropping like a stone now.  Might give it a try, I can't do any worse.  Download Link?

These are the two I'm running at the moment. The wide version is not as direct, but is still...well fairly direct. I'm having a lot of joy with it. Often end up with a lot of players in the box. Sometimes the AMC gets the ball from a long ball or throughball/cross field ball, draws out a defender and then slips a short pass through. Other times it goes long on the wings and everything sort of pivots so we still have 3-4 in the box.

DM acts as cover to help shield the back as you basically give up on the centre of the pitch and go long or wide.

Generally speaking all the DC's are dribble less, take more risks, hold position, shoot less, tackle harder.

Fullbacks cross from deep, shoot less, tackle harder.

MC's or DM's are shoot less, take more risks

 

With both of them I've got my set pieces set up just how I want them. I don't get excessive amounts but I get enough. Long throws. Corners and free kicks to the near post that is being attacked by your best header. Usually your targetman. I've also got my defensive set pieces set up to encourage counter attacks.

442.PNG

442Wide.PNG

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Le 06/01/2020 à 21:26, Peljam a dit :

These are the two I'm running at the moment. The wide version is not as direct, but is still...well fairly direct. I'm having a lot of joy with it. Often end up with a lot of players in the box. Sometimes the AMC gets the ball from a long ball or throughball/cross field ball, draws out a defender and then slips a short pass through. Other times it goes long on the wings and everything sort of pivots so we still have 3-4 in the box.

DM acts as cover to help shield the back as you basically give up on the centre of the pitch and go long or wide.

Generally speaking all the DC's are dribble less, take more risks, hold position, shoot less, tackle harder.

Fullbacks cross from deep, shoot less, tackle harder.

MC's or DM's are shoot less, take more risks

 

With both of them I've got my set pieces set up just how I want them. I don't get excessive amounts but I get enough. Long throws. Corners and free kicks to the near post that is being attacked by your best header. Usually your targetman. I've also got my defensive set pieces set up to encourage counter attacks.

442.PNG

442Wide.PNG

Could you upload your tactics ?

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4 hours ago, Nicke9000 said:

Anybody still trying hoofball?

Yep, in Brazil

This is my standard

HGxnLvu.png

And this is my experimental chasing the game tactic

4BZomhq.png

 

Edited by Brother Ben
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On 08/04/2020 at 20:14, Brother Ben said:

Yep, in Brazil

This is my standard

HGxnLvu.png

And this is my experimental chasing the game tactic

4BZomhq.png

 

Loving the look of the TM plus 2 WTM's!

 

I'm still playing hoof but with a wide 442 diamiond, and the wingers on attack. So I guess I end up with a fair few players up front.

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On 10/04/2020 at 17:38, Peljam said:

Loving the look of the TM plus 2 WTM's!

 

I'm still playing hoof but with a wide 442 diamiond, and the wingers on attack. So I guess I end up with a fair few players up front.

The wide target men are great, a lot of the time they run with the ball and then just stop, play it back to a defender who launches it to the TM who knocks it down to an on rushing AM.  Magic when it pays off.  I’ll have to post some goals up

Edited by Brother Ben
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I have developed what I think is a very nice hoofball tactic that helped me finish 6th in Scottish League 2 with Albion Rovers (Predicted to finish 10th)

Declan McDonald my main striker scored 32 goals in 34 league games using my tactic.

I will update the thread with stats etc but currently working on another save before I revisit this for season 2

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25 minutes ago, witticism said:

Considering the latest match engine only rewards attacking and counterpressing, havent bothered.

These are two vital components of hoofball in my opinion, why would they not be?

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2 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

These are two vital components of hoofball in my opinion, why would they not be?

You arent wrong.

But I like to play the sit deep and counter kind of hoofball.

Not the tick the attacking, counter pressing, higher loe, and extremely urgent intensity boxes so you can pretend the ME isnt broken kind of hoofball.

 

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18 minutes ago, witticism said:

You arent wrong.

But I like to play the sit deep and counter kind of hoofball.

Not the tick the attacking, counter pressing, higher loe, and extremely urgent intensity boxes so you can pretend the ME isnt broken kind of hoofball.

 

Yeah I get what you mean, you can see I go for a similar approach with my tactics above.  Does it always work? No. But I do get some great passages of play and i'd love to see how it plays out with players that are really well suited to the roles

My main criticism of the match engine is that it's hard to get them to play enough long balls.  I really wish I could literally say "stick it to my target man's head every time" I suppose what I want is the option of how to feed the target man like we used to have (to feet/head)

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1 hour ago, witticism said:

You arent wrong.

But I like to play the sit deep and counter kind of hoofball.

Not the tick the attacking, counter pressing, higher loe, and extremely urgent intensity boxes so you can pretend the ME isnt broken kind of hoofball.

 

I have a slightly different opinion on this.

The way i tend to interpret those instructions when building a hoofball tactic is:

 

Attacking - I want my players to play the most advanced pass they can. i dont want to see defenders passing it to each other and THEN it go forward, i want it forward immediately. so i lift the intensity with mentality.

 

Counter Pressing, High LOE and Urgent Pressing- I concentrate bodies into the final third with the intention of delivering the ball into the final third. When inevitably the low percentage ball doesnt come off, i want my players swarming around the loose ball to pick up the seconds. Classical get it into the big man get bodies around him kind of idea.

 

The hoofball tactic i liked the look of most was the one utilising the wide target men for this reason. it reminded me of the sort of football the old Wimbledon might try and play

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Posted (edited)
On 14/04/2020 at 01:29, Brother Ben said:

The wide target men are great, a lot of the time they run with the ball and then just stop, play it back to a defender who launches it to the TM who knocks it down to an on rushing AM.  Magic when it pays off.  I’ll have to post some goals up

That sounds delightful 

Edited by Experienced Defender
inappropriate word
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On 15/04/2020 at 11:28, witticism said:

You arent wrong.

But I like to play the sit deep and counter kind of hoofball.

Not the tick the attacking, counter pressing, higher loe, and extremely urgent intensity boxes so you can pretend the ME isnt broken kind of hoofball.

 

I have to admit I'm not a fan of that kind of hoofball either. For me going Route One is a big middle finger to the game that seems to want me to play attacking counter pressing football. I like the challenge of winning with a side of hard men who sit back and play the least attractive football known to man. 

To this day I've barely managed to finish more than 2 seasons playing attractive football, it gets very dull.

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13 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I have to admit I'm not a fan of that kind of hoofball either. For me going Route One is a big middle finger to the game that seems to want me to play attacking counter pressing football. I like the challenge of winning with a side of hard men who sit back and play the least attractive football known to man. 

To this day I've barely managed to finish more than 2 seasons playing attractive football, it gets very dull.

I'm in agreement on this.  This is how I would like to play, super structured with the smallest pitch available.  

1209285455_Annotation2020-05-06125119.thumb.png.2227cef9f4fb3d150c10f2cafd11970e.png

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17 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

I'm in agreement on this.  This is how I would like to play, super structured with the smallest pitch available.  

1209285455_Annotation2020-05-06125119.thumb.png.2227cef9f4fb3d150c10f2cafd11970e.png

That is quite beautiful :applause:

Id say that you might get over run due to being constantly attacked if you tried it though. 
 

Im never sure whether it’s such a good idea to hold shape and press so little for 90 mins, especially with an attacking mentality in midfield.

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3 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

That is quite beautiful :applause:

Id say that you might get over run due to being constantly attacked if you tried it though. 
 

Im never sure whether it’s such a good idea to hold shape and press so little for 90 mins, especially with an attacking mentality in midfield.

What i'd love is to have a slightly more attacking variation and then shut up shop with this after going a goal up.  That would be my idea of success.  A big run of 1-0 wins would be glorious

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11 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

That is quite beautiful :applause:

Id say that you might get over run due to being constantly attacked if you tried it though. 
 

Im never sure whether it’s such a good idea to hold shape and press so little for 90 mins, especially with an attacking mentality in midfield.

I’ve not tried it yet but will do later and maybe someone else has tried already, but I’m hoping that by putting the instruction of Hold Shape on with Standard Closing Down then there’s enough pressing happening that you’re not completely passive but it’s really rigid and disciplined. I guess the ultimate aim is to push all the play out wide for your horrible centre halves to head or boot clear. 

The ratings my full backs and entire midfield are getting are horrifying but then I guess they’re not really getting the ball so it’s hard to influence the game.

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Posted (edited)

I do wonder what the best pitch size is for this kind of thing my gut feeling is the smallest possible but I wonder if anyone has any other ideas?

The other dilemma I have is being caught between having loads of spoilers behind the ball and having runners to get to the target man's knock downs

Edited by Brother Ben
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Posted (edited)

I have to say I'm very excited by my current hoofball tactic. I mean it's early days yet into my second season but so far the "results" have been great. My overall goal towards creating a reasonably effective, but ultimately ugly style of football is starting to come together in a way I hadn't quite managed before. Based on a few tweaks to my old ways of thinking, and advice I've garnered from this board I've got a tactic and a group of players that 'feel' very Pulis.

The basic aim of the tactic is to play in a split block. 8+2. In the Pulis mould I want my fullbacks to play like central defenders and my winger to play like wingbacks. The game plan is to keep things tight for 90 minutes and hope that the opposition will have a momentary slip and that is when I will score, possibly through a corner or long throw. The games themselves look exactly how you'd expect. The opposition have a lot of shots, not many of target, many highlights of scrambled defence with everyone parking the bus in our penalty area, a long ball out to our two strikers and occasionally a goal. 

wimb-tact1.thumb.png.c8cd04013130bcd2155751231fbf357b.png

442.
Defensive Mentality
Extremely direct passing
Play for Set Pieces
Be more disciplined

GK distribute quickly
Counter
Regroup

Defend Narrow
Low LOE
Get Stuck in.

Many of these instructions seem kinda obvious. I want to be playing Route 1 football, I want to stick to my tactics and I want to score more from set pieces. I want my team to counter when there is an opportunity (change this to hold shape at the end of games) but also keep shape most of the time.
The low LOE was a big game changer for me, usually it worries me but seemed to go well with a standard Defensive line even with a defensive mentality. It means my team sits back and keeps shape rather well.
Of course get Stuck in has to be there.


Goalie -Sweeper Keeper Defend
I want him to initiate counters with long kicks when he can, but also don't do anything fancy and mostly stay on his line

Central Defenders - No Nonsense
Of course I don't want any funny business here. I want my defenders to clear the lines and don't try and play out from the back. Ever. Unfortunately I have Oshilija in my side, who is my most highly rated defender, and he plays more like Lundstrum than I'd like with his 'play out of defence' trait which I can't get rid of. He will be replaced, but I have moved him to one of the fullback positions when I can.

Defender Left - Defensive
I don't want my fullbacks crossing the halfway line. This is my more attacking fullback in comparison but I still have him on defend to keep him back. There are still more than enough crosses coming from him to make me happy.

Defender Right - No Nonsense
I want this guy to play more like a centre half, tucking in and getting headers, not offering much in support other than to give it to a winger. I have started to retrain central defenders for the role.

Central Mid left - Defend
Added press less and take less risks and dribble less to make sure that the guy sits in front of the defence and acted like a wall. I previously experimented with BMWs here because it felt more on brand with Wimbledon, but actually it leaves a lot of space in front of the defence and I want my centre to remain solid.

Central Mid Right - Support
This guy is pretty similar, but with a support role.

Wingers - Defensive Wingers
Bit of a decision as to whether to just go with standard wingers, maybe an inverted winger for variety. But this seemed to have go to the wide players to contribute to defence a bit more, whilst offering something in attack. I was worrying about them not getting to the byline to cross, but in a lot of cases I don't think I need them to. Much of the crossing I see is around the halfway point, is very direct. With 2 attacking strikers its a lot easier to cause more chaos when you hoof it into the mixer like that.

Striker left - Pressing forward attack
This could have been a poacher or attacking forward, someone to beat the back line and run in behind. But I went with pressing forward to harass any team playing out of defence. I've scored a couple of goals like this already.

Striker Right - Target man attack
Now I really held back from it being a TMA for a long time, I didn't like what I'd seen from two attack strikers in the past, I know its recommended on here for counter formations, but the big gaps I saw in my tactic really worried me. But I've given in and gone for it, and it has worked very well. It means I really am playing 8+2. However the 8 need to be very very solid to make up for the amount of space I allow in front of my midfield. The TMA doesn't track back as deep as I'd want but its ok because I can release it to him quickly. There is also a big difference having 2 up front when you counter vs one up front. 


So some of the results worth mentioning after only 12 games admittedly but:
conceded.thumb.png.5f5e45d43b15c10f74f757442ccb4e04.png

Second least goals conceded in the league so far.
goals.thumb.png.e9e45009a96a65e4e092e52144cf4aa9.png
Coupled with the second least number of goals scored! Beautiful

sot.thumb.png.69719b296fab047a48af9582b6dc62e6.png

Also, topping the shots on target ratio in the league. This means we aren't having very many chances, but the ones we do get are hitting the right place and are sometimes going in. Efficiency.

We are currently 8th in the table with 2 losses, both 0-1. We were predicted to go down. So that is good.

I'm also slowly bringing in the sort of players I want, even starting from a good base. My record signing Songo'o has been sent off twice, both before the 10th minute and has so far barely been able to play for me. Seems about right. 
All of my players need to have high levels of work rate, bravery and aggression. Height and pace are highly sought after and anyone who doesn't fit this style is shipped off. My best winger Mitch Pinnock was sold, he had fantastic crossing and pace, but didn't defend or work hard. I even loaned in what I assume is David Batty's son to add some bite to midfield. 

Long term I want to change the club personality to unsporting, and have an academy that creates players that suit my style, aggressive units. Then my long term ambition is to get them playing for England and win a world cup with a long ball side. I'll probably be playing FM2029 by then.
 

Edited by johnnyyakuza78
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1 hour ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I have to say I'm very excited by my current hoofball tactic. I mean it's early days yet into my second season but so far the "results" have been great. My overall goal towards creating a reasonably effective, but ultimately ugly style of football is starting to come together in a way I hadn't quite managed before. Based on a few tweaks to my old ways of thinking, and advice I've garnered from this board I've got a tactic and a group of players that 'feel' very Pulis.

The basic aim of the tactic is to play in a split block. 8+2. In the Pulis mould I want my fullbacks to play like central defenders and my winger to play like wingbacks. The game plan is to keep things tight for 90 minutes and hope that the opposition will have a momentary slip and that is when I will score, possibly through a corner or long throw. The games themselves look exactly how you'd expect. The opposition have a lot of shots, not many of target, many highlights of scrambled defence with everyone parking the bus in our penalty area, a long ball out to our two strikers and occasionally a goal. 

wimb-tact1.thumb.png.c8cd04013130bcd2155751231fbf357b.png

442.
Defensive Mentality
Extremely direct passing
Play for Set Pieces
Be more disciplined

GK distribute quickly
Counter
Regroup

Defend Narrow
Low LOE
Get Stuck in.

Many of these instructions seem kinda obvious. I want to be playing Route 1 football, I want to stick to my tactics and I want to score more from set pieces. I want my team to counter when there is an opportunity (change this to hold shape at the end of games) but also keep shape most of the time.
The low LOE was a big game changer for me, usually it worries me but seemed to go well with a standard Defensive line even with a defensive mentality. It means my team sits back and keeps shape rather well.
Of course get Stuck in has to be there.


Goalie -Sweeper Keeper Defend
I want him to initiate counters with long kicks when he can, but also don't do anything fancy and mostly stay on his line

Central Defenders - No Nonsense
Of course I don't want any funny business here. I want my defenders to clear the lines and don't try and play out from the back. Ever. Unfortunately I have Oshilija in my side, who is my most highly rated defender, and he plays more like Lundstrum than I'd like with his 'play out of defence' trait which I can't get rid of. He will be replaced, but I have moved him to one of the fullback positions when I can.

Defender Left - Defensive
I don't want my fullbacks crossing the halfway line. This is my more attacking fullback in comparison but I still have him on defend to keep him back. There are still more than enough crosses coming from him to make me happy.

Defender Right - No Nonsense
I want this guy to play more like a centre half, tucking in and getting headers, not offering much in support other than to give it to a winger. I have started to retrain central defenders for the role.

Central Mid left - Defend
Added press less and take less risks and dribble less to make sure that the guy sits in front of the defence and acted like a wall. I previously experimented with BMWs here because it felt more on brand with Wimbledon, but actually it leaves a lot of space in front of the defence and I want my centre to remain solid.

Central Mid Right - Support
This guy is pretty similar, but with a support role.

Wingers - Defensive Wingers
Bit of a decision as to whether to just go with standard wingers, maybe an inverted winger for variety. But this seemed to have go to the wide players to contribute to defence a bit more, whilst offering something in attack. I was worrying about them not getting to the byline to cross, but in a lot of cases I don't think I need them to. Much of the crossing I see is around the halfway point, is very direct. With 2 attacking strikers its a lot easier to cause more chaos when you hoof it into the mixer like that.

Striker left - Pressing forward attack
This could have been a poacher or attacking forward, someone to beat the back line and run in behind. But I went with pressing forward to harass any team playing out of defence. I've scored a couple of goals like this already.

Striker Right - Target man attack
Now I really held back from it being a TMA for a long time, I didn't like what I'd seen from two attack strikers in the past, I know its recommended on here for counter formations, but the big gaps I saw in my tactic really worried me. But I've given in and gone for it, and it has worked very well. It means I really am playing 8+2. However the 8 need to be very very solid to make up for the amount of space I allow in front of my midfield. The TMA doesn't track back as deep as I'd want but its ok because I can release it to him quickly. There is also a big difference having 2 up front when you counter vs one up front. 


So some of the results worth mentioning after only 12 games admittedly but:
conceded.thumb.png.5f5e45d43b15c10f74f757442ccb4e04.png

Second least goals conceded in the league so far.
goals.thumb.png.e9e45009a96a65e4e092e52144cf4aa9.png
Coupled with the second least number of goals scored! Beautiful

sot.thumb.png.69719b296fab047a48af9582b6dc62e6.png

Also, topping the shots on target ratio in the league. This means we aren't having very many chances, but the ones we do get are hitting the right place and are sometimes going in. Efficiency.

We are currently 8th in the table with 2 losses, both 0-1. We were predicted to go down. So that is good.

I'm also slowly bringing in the sort of players I want, even starting from a good base. My record signing Songo'o has been sent off twice, both before the 10th minute and has so far barely been able to play for me. Seems about right. 
All of my players need to have high levels of work rate, bravery and aggression. Height and pace are highly sought after and anyone who doesn't fit this style is shipped off. My best winger Mitch Pinnock was sold, he had fantastic crossing and pace, but didn't defend or work hard. I even loaned in what I assume is David Batty's son to add some bite to midfield. 

Long term I want to change the club personality to unsporting, and have an academy that creates players that suit my style, aggressive units. Then my long term ambition is to get them playing for England and win a world cup with a long ball side. I'll probably be playing FM2029 by then.
 

Love it! 

Glad to see you're getting some results with this.  Defensive winger is an interesting choice, I held back from using them as in my mind I expect them to work a lot like a BWM and maybe be drawn out of position. My guess is though that you've got enough players holding position that it doesn't matter as much. 

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Defensive Winger is something that I’m considering switching to. I’ve got mine on Winger Support at the moment and they’re really not doing well generally. I’m thinking getting them involved in the defensive side of the game might help somehow.

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7 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

Love it! 

Glad to see you're getting some results with this.  Defensive winger is an interesting choice, I held back from using them as in my mind I expect them to work a lot like a BWM and maybe be drawn out of position. My guess is though that you've got enough players holding position that it doesn't matter as much. 

Yeah that was my worry too. But thinking about it, with defensive mentality and a low LOE I think they are more inclined to only press lower down the pitch anyway, so aren’t running around the pitch too much.

The area I want them to press is the wings, around the half way line and further back. 
 

Also because the full backs sit further back and maybe a bit narrower the wingers do more to defend the flanks.

Having said that, I have brought in more defensive wingers anyway, so it might also be a personnel change that has helped.

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6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yeah, defensive winger sounds so logical when it comes to hoofball, but the role was completely out of my mind until I saw this post (tactic) by @johnnyyakuza78 :thup: :brock:

I think like Wide Target man, people probably forget it even exists!:lol:

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Apologies for asking again but any thoughts on pitch size?  Does it make a real difference?  Will the Delap style throw-in's work better on a narrower pitch for example?

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3 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

Apologies for asking again but any thoughts on pitch size?  Does it make a real difference?  Will the Delap style throw-in's work better on a narrower pitch for example?

I honestly don’t know how much difference it makes. Last year I set it for large and wide thinking I had wingers and I wanted to get men running in behind but it rarely worked out.

This year I set it to minimum and possibly it’s had some effect in defence but it’s hard to say

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1 minute ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I honestly don’t know how much difference it makes. Last year I set it for large and wide thinking I had wingers and I wanted to get men running in behind but it rarely worked out.

This year I set it to minimum and possibly it’s had some effect in defence but it’s hard to say

My own thought is that I want a pitch size that makes it harder for the opposition rather than better for my own team as it's spoiler tactics we're talking about here after all.  With that in mind the smaller pitch seems the way to go here to limit the space that the opposition have to work in but I really don't have any evidence to really support this

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2 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

My own thought is that I want a pitch size that makes it harder for the opposition rather than better for my own team as it's spoiler tactics we're talking about here after all.  With that in mind the smaller pitch seems the way to go here to limit the space that the opposition have to work in but I really don't have any evidence to really support this

Yeah that’s my thinking too. The size of the pitch means little to this style of play when you aren’t trying to create space by moving the ball around and the main area of the pitch you are interested in is right in front of their goal.

So compressing the space and making it as hard as possible for them to score goals seems the way to go

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1 hour ago, Brother Ben said:

Defensive winger is an interesting choice, I held back from using them as in my mind I expect them to work a lot like a BWM and maybe be drawn out of position.

My experience is that they tend to defend the flanks, instead of rushing to press in the middle.

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55 minutes ago, TommyToxic said:

My experience is that they tend to defend the flanks, instead of rushing to press in the middle.

I like the idea of them giving the opposite winger hassle, then winning the ball and launching it straight away to a target man.

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6 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I have to say I'm very excited by my current hoofball tactic. I mean it's early days yet into my second season but so far the "results" have been great. My overall goal towards creating a reasonably effective, but ultimately ugly style of football is starting to come together in a way I hadn't quite managed before. Based on a few tweaks to my old ways of thinking, and advice I've garnered from this board I've got a tactic and a group of players that 'feel' very Pulis.

The basic aim of the tactic is to play in a split block. 8+2. In the Pulis mould I want my fullbacks to play like central defenders and my winger to play like wingbacks. The game plan is to keep things tight for 90 minutes and hope that the opposition will have a momentary slip and that is when I will score, possibly through a corner or long throw. The games themselves look exactly how you'd expect. The opposition have a lot of shots, not many of target, many highlights of scrambled defence with everyone parking the bus in our penalty area, a long ball out to our two strikers and occasionally a goal. 

wimb-tact1.thumb.png.c8cd04013130bcd2155751231fbf357b.png

442.
Defensive Mentality
Extremely direct passing
Play for Set Pieces
Be more disciplined

GK distribute quickly
Counter
Regroup

Defend Narrow
Low LOE
Get Stuck in.

Many of these instructions seem kinda obvious. I want to be playing Route 1 football, I want to stick to my tactics and I want to score more from set pieces. I want my team to counter when there is an opportunity (change this to hold shape at the end of games) but also keep shape most of the time.
The low LOE was a big game changer for me, usually it worries me but seemed to go well with a standard Defensive line even with a defensive mentality. It means my team sits back and keeps shape rather well.
Of course get Stuck in has to be there.


Goalie -Sweeper Keeper Defend
I want him to initiate counters with long kicks when he can, but also don't do anything fancy and mostly stay on his line

Central Defenders - No Nonsense
Of course I don't want any funny business here. I want my defenders to clear the lines and don't try and play out from the back. Ever. Unfortunately I have Oshilija in my side, who is my most highly rated defender, and he plays more like Lundstrum than I'd like with his 'play out of defence' trait which I can't get rid of. He will be replaced, but I have moved him to one of the fullback positions when I can.

Defender Left - Defensive
I don't want my fullbacks crossing the halfway line. This is my more attacking fullback in comparison but I still have him on defend to keep him back. There are still more than enough crosses coming from him to make me happy.

Defender Right - No Nonsense
I want this guy to play more like a centre half, tucking in and getting headers, not offering much in support other than to give it to a winger. I have started to retrain central defenders for the role.

Central Mid left - Defend
Added press less and take less risks and dribble less to make sure that the guy sits in front of the defence and acted like a wall. I previously experimented with BMWs here because it felt more on brand with Wimbledon, but actually it leaves a lot of space in front of the defence and I want my centre to remain solid.

Central Mid Right - Support
This guy is pretty similar, but with a support role.

Wingers - Defensive Wingers
Bit of a decision as to whether to just go with standard wingers, maybe an inverted winger for variety. But this seemed to have go to the wide players to contribute to defence a bit more, whilst offering something in attack. I was worrying about them not getting to the byline to cross, but in a lot of cases I don't think I need them to. Much of the crossing I see is around the halfway point, is very direct. With 2 attacking strikers its a lot easier to cause more chaos when you hoof it into the mixer like that.

Striker left - Pressing forward attack
This could have been a poacher or attacking forward, someone to beat the back line and run in behind. But I went with pressing forward to harass any team playing out of defence. I've scored a couple of goals like this already.

Striker Right - Target man attack
Now I really held back from it being a TMA for a long time, I didn't like what I'd seen from two attack strikers in the past, I know its recommended on here for counter formations, but the big gaps I saw in my tactic really worried me. But I've given in and gone for it, and it has worked very well. It means I really am playing 8+2. However the 8 need to be very very solid to make up for the amount of space I allow in front of my midfield. The TMA doesn't track back as deep as I'd want but its ok because I can release it to him quickly. There is also a big difference having 2 up front when you counter vs one up front. 


So some of the results worth mentioning after only 12 games admittedly but:
conceded.thumb.png.5f5e45d43b15c10f74f757442ccb4e04.png

Second least goals conceded in the league so far.
goals.thumb.png.e9e45009a96a65e4e092e52144cf4aa9.png
Coupled with the second least number of goals scored! Beautiful

sot.thumb.png.69719b296fab047a48af9582b6dc62e6.png

Also, topping the shots on target ratio in the league. This means we aren't having very many chances, but the ones we do get are hitting the right place and are sometimes going in. Efficiency.

We are currently 8th in the table with 2 losses, both 0-1. We were predicted to go down. So that is good.

I'm also slowly bringing in the sort of players I want, even starting from a good base. My record signing Songo'o has been sent off twice, both before the 10th minute and has so far barely been able to play for me. Seems about right. 
All of my players need to have high levels of work rate, bravery and aggression. Height and pace are highly sought after and anyone who doesn't fit this style is shipped off. My best winger Mitch Pinnock was sold, he had fantastic crossing and pace, but didn't defend or work hard. I even loaned in what I assume is David Batty's son to add some bite to midfield. 

Long term I want to change the club personality to unsporting, and have an academy that creates players that suit my style, aggressive units. Then my long term ambition is to get them playing for England and win a world cup with a long ball side. I'll probably be playing FM2029 by then.
 

Absolutely the love the way you go about this. One question, what changes do you make if you find yourself chasing a game?

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1 hour ago, Atarin said:

Absolutely the love the way you go about this. One question, what changes do you make if you find yourself chasing a game?

Thanks! It is a very good question though, and not sure I have the perfect answer. I notice that many sides who play this way really do struggle to score once they go behind and it has happened to me a few times. 

First thing I do is try to make sure it doesn't come to that situation. I tend to play with my LOE a lot if I find I am coming under too much pressure, pushing it up to standard or maybe even high for a bit. 

But if I do concede early then I do at least have a secondary tactic that I swap over to which is a bit more attack minded. Its on my other machine so can't screen shot it right now, but it's built off my main tactic anyway with a couple of tweaks. 
Main changes are moving from Defensive > Balance mentality
Changing Def Wingers to normal Wingers
Support mid becomes a BBM with 'gets further forward' 
Left Fullback > Support 
Switch off regroup and counter.
Target man to Support
High LOE

Its all a little bit of a balancing act, because on one hand I know the sort of tactic that would be good to create space and score goals, but also it goes against what I am trying to create. So instead of passing through the opponent I really just want to batter them with desperate attempts to score by lumping the ball into the box and hoping it finds somebody. 

As the match progresses I also find if I'm getting more and more desperate I'll try more things. For instance just going to Attacking (rarely seems to work) or changing LW to a IW and changing my left fullback to attack. Basically I just want more people near the box and get my fullbacks to hit crosses in. I have a def winger who can also play wingback so he sometimes fills in in that role. 
 

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6 hours ago, Brother Ben said:

Apologies for asking again but any thoughts on pitch size?  Does it make a real difference?  Will the Delap style throw-in's work better on a narrower pitch for example?

Pulis made his pitch as small as possible to maximise the effectiveness of delaps throw ins. This also means you can play a midfield 4 where the wingers will be close to the midfield 2 meaning youre harder to break down. https://www.coachesvoice.com/stoke-city-tony-pulis/

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Posted (edited)

Okay i've had a little crack at this with this tactic

1136777048_Annotation2020-05-10233902.thumb.png.571a4d5271435264b25bba5fe2adb05f.png

It works off the same premise as johnny's but with a few tweaks here and there.  The main difference being that in defence pressing is set to less urgent and my players are told to stay on feet.  In conjunction with asking all players to hold position (bar the PF) leads to defensive shuffling across the pitch which invites LOADS of pressure but seems to be effective against certain opposition

I also found my strikers were always a little far apart so I decided to shift them over slightly which resulted in this kind of outcome which was very pleasing

It does though, as expected, leave us vulnerable to attacks down our left played from the back, i'm still working on how to mitigate this

These are his individual instructions

592401776_Annotation2020-05-10234855.thumb.png.aa2475f3aaa4faea0ec0d0242d6b6bc2.png

He runs late into channels really well and often puts really dangerous crosses in, either to the target man or the left sided DW arriving late in the box

There is still plenty wrong with this tactic but i'm really enjoying watching one or two of the outcomes I was hoping for paying off

The other most frequent type of goal is this one, from wide on the left

And of course one of these is always more than welcome

 

Edited by Brother Ben
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12 minutes ago, Brother Ben said:

Okay i've had a little crack at this with this tactic

1136777048_Annotation2020-05-10233902.thumb.png.571a4d5271435264b25bba5fe2adb05f.png

 

It works off the same premise as johnny's but with a few tweaks here and there.  I found my strikers were always a little far apart so I decided to shift them over slightly which resulted in this kind of outcome which was very pleasing

These are his individual instructions

592401776_Annotation2020-05-10234855.thumb.png.aa2475f3aaa4faea0ec0d0242d6b6bc2.png

He runs late into channels really well and often puts really dangerous crosses in, either to the target man or the left sided DW arriving late in the box

There is still plenty wrong with this tactic but i'm really enjoying watching one or two of the outcomes I was hoping for paying off

The other most frequent type of goal is this one, from wide on the left

And of course one of these is always more than welcome

 

Have they changed the rules of football? In that last clip there must have be thirty odd players on the pitch.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Atarin said:

Have they changed the rules of football? In that last clip there must have be thirty odd players on the pitch.

:D Good spot, makes it look like a school yard game with a long punt upfield

Must have been video upload issue, I've amended it

Edited by Brother Ben
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10 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Wingers - Defensive Wingers
Bit of a decision as to whether to just go with standard wingers, maybe an inverted winger for variety. But this seemed to have go to the wide players to contribute to defence a bit more, whilst offering something in attack. I was worrying about them not getting to the byline to cross, but in a lot of cases I don't think I need them to. Much of the crossing I see is around the halfway point, is very direct. With 2 attacking strikers its a lot easier to cause more chaos when you hoof it into the mixer like that.

What about a FB+WB combo instead, do you think it would work? I wonder how much more solid would it make you in defence and you might have more freedom when it comes to certain PIs, plus an attack duty, should you need it.

Mm3gRzs.jpg

Ever since someone posted this picture (@Svenc, if I recall correctly?), I'm curious what kind of tactic was used. Always wanted to try some sort of ultra negative football myself, but never really got around to it. Looking forward to how you get on!

Also, if you don't mind, could you post some analysis screenshots like shots, opposition' touches inside your box and maybe key passes/crosses completed? Really curious how many butt clenching moments a tactic like that produces. :D

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6 horas atrás, Atarin disse:

Have they changed the rules of football? In that last clip there must have be thirty odd players on the pitch.

There are indeed 12 blue players on the pitch, plus the goalkeeper :D

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1 hour ago, davidbarros2 said:

There are indeed 12 blue players on the pitch, plus the goalkeeper :D

Don't forget the random goalkeeper admiring the ball hitting the net  :cool:

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@Brother Ben , nice , I really like the changes you made to it. I would never have considered moving strikers over to one side. It makes some sense, though I personally prefer to have some sort of visual symmetry in my tactics.

How did you find the much lower LOE? Did it concede too much space or did you find your team was the right level of compactness?

Also be interested in you defend duty on the right winger. How did he play? I did think about doing that as well but wondered if it wasn't defensive overkill. 

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9 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

@Brother Ben , nice , I really like the changes you made to it. I would never have considered moving strikers over to one side. It makes some sense, though I personally prefer to have some sort of visual symmetry in my tactics.

How did you find the much lower LOE? Did it concede too much space or did you find your team was the right level of compactness?

Also be interested in you defend duty on the right winger. How did he play? I did think about doing that as well but wondered if it wasn't defensive overkill. 

To be honest the striker movement works really well but the rest of the tactic is very sketchy

I took your advice and I switch to balanced when falling behind and it works so much better but obviously its a little against what i'm trying to achieve.  That said my other TI's and roles are ultra defensive

In terms of the LOE I don't really have much comparison as i've never tinkered with it as I didn't see the point really if we're going to close down less and stay on feet.  I guess I was hoping to minimise the passing options with good positioning forcing them to go long where my 4 defenders (all natural CB's) will head the ball away.  It's an area of concern though as they do get through us pretty easily although 9 times out of 10 they are forced wide and crosses are charged down by either the DW or NFB who often double up on wingers.  If crosses do come in then they are usually headed away easily.

The trouble is that it's wave after wave of attack and we often concede to long shots so the tactic needs a lot of tinkering

The DW on defend duty works really well because the PF drifts wide so he has the option of hitting the target man, playing into the channels or the cross field switch to the other DW who is often in acres of space (albeit a bit deep for my liking), the defend duty helps as it prevents him occupying the same space as the PF

The biggest revelation has been the left sided DW who often has acres of space to run into because of the overload on the right

I've found my most effective tinkering on the go to be changing the defensive width and moving up to balanced

I've currently played 6 and my record is 2-2-2, with both losses and one draw coming at home so either the small pitch isn't helping or it works better against teams that attack more

I'm predicted to finish 18th and I currently sit in 12th so it's a pleasing start 

I'm really enjoying the challenge to be honest it's fun remaining true to the ethos 

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