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36 minutes ago, Rub Me said:

Thanks man. I started unemployed and took over Guiseley after the first quarter of the season where they were in the relegation zone in the VNN. I accepted their offer because they've already got a 6 foot 6 TM n the squad. 3 games into hoofball and we've drawn 2-2 away at 3rd in the league and won two other games 1 and 2-0 respectively. What stats would you look at to see if hoofball is truly working?

No problem. Good start! Good size TM as well.

It might sound obvious but the match performance is key. Watching the highlights will tell you more to begin with than the stats as A) the tactic is bedding in and you are getting used to players, B) stats in the short term are more easily biased by extremes, and C) Hoofball is a percentages game in a way that a lot of other philosophies aren't. A lot of longballs might not work, and that doesn't show up in the game stats as well as other 'successful actions'.

 

For me A and C are the key points. You are hoofing it forward and often there are going to be issues - the delivery might not be right, you might lose the battle for the ball in the air, you might win the first ball but not the 2nd etc. Each potentially means something different and very little of that will be captured as a meaningful stat in the short term. If you're watching enough of the highlights you'll be able to see if your players are attempting the right passes, getting into the right areas...or not. For example if your deeper players are getting the ball into the right areas consistently but you're not winning the 1st ball then there's potentially an issue with the TM. But if the TM is winning the first ball consistently but no one is picking up the flick on or the pass then there's an issue with the support or position, and so on.

 

Once you played enough matches though then things like the Tactics analysis can be useful for working out where the goal assists are coming from - long ball, through ball, cross, square ball, free kick etc. I wouldn't take it as 100% accurate as I'm not sure what it considers through and what it considers long. In 23 league games I've got 4 goals from long balls and 17 from throughballs according to that. To me I think we played a lot more long ball assists. I'd keep in mind with this as well that it is focussed on assists so there'll be lots it doesn't pick up as there was no goal (though there is a chance creation screen too).

You can also use things like the passing map when you have enough games to look at as well.

 

Edited by Peljam
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And just to add to Peljam's very insightful post - given that with a hoofball style you are not likely to see a lot of ball possession, you need to make sure your defense is tight and can handle a considerable amount of pressure coming from the opposition.

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4 hours ago, Peljam said:

No problem. Good start! Good size TM as well.

It might sound obvious but the match performance is key. Watching the highlights will tell you more to begin with than the stats as A) the tactic is bedding in and you are getting used to players, B) stats in the short term are more easily biased by extremes, and C) Hoofball is a percentages game in a way that a lot of other philosophies aren't. A lot of longballs might not work, and that doesn't show up in the game stats as well as other 'successful actions'.

 

For me A and C are the key points. You are hoofing it forward and often there are going to be issues - the delivery might not be right, you might lose the battle for the ball in the air, you might win the first ball but not the 2nd etc. Each potentially means something different and very little of that will be captured as a meaningful stat in the short term. If you're watching enough of the highlights you'll be able to see if your players are attempting the right passes, getting into the right areas...or not. For example if your deeper players are getting the ball into the right areas consistently but you're not winning the 1st ball then there's potentially an issue with the TM. But if the TM is winning the first ball consistently but no one is picking up the flick on or the pass then there's an issue with the support or position, and so on.

 

Once you played enough matches though then things like the Tactics analysis can be useful for working out where the goal assists are coming from - long ball, through ball, cross, square ball, free kick etc. I wouldn't take it as 100% accurate as I'm not sure what it considers through and what it considers long. In 23 league games I've got 4 goals from long balls and 17 from throughballs according to that. To me I think we played a lot more long ball assists. I'd keep in mind with this as well that it is focussed on assists so there'll be lots it doesn't pick up as there was no goal (though there is a chance creation screen too).

You can also use things like the passing map when you have enough games to look at as well.

 

Thanks very much for the info mate. I suppose I should look at this when I an properly stamp my authority on the side with transfers. I'll have to come up with some set piece routines too. 

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

And just to add to Peljam's very insightful post - given that with a hoofball style you are not likely to see a lot of ball possession, you need to make sure your defense is tight and can handle a considerable amount of pressure coming from the opposition.

My defence is trash, probably why they were in the relegation zone when I took over :lol: I'll need to bring in some better ones for sure. 

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1 hour ago, Rub Me said:

Thanks very much for the info mate. I suppose I should look at this when I an properly stamp my authority on the side with transfers. I'll have to come up with some set piece routines too. 

My defence is trash, probably why they were in the relegation zone when I took over :lol: I'll need to bring in some better ones for sure. 

When I say "defence", I don't mean just defenders (the back 4/5), but the way of defending by the team as a whole. So of course you should look to have (bring) as good defenders as you can, but even if you cannot afford to have the best ones, you should look to offset their lack of their quality by creating an appropriate tactical setup.

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12 hours ago, Rub Me said:

Thanks very much for the info mate. I suppose I should look at this when I an properly stamp my authority on the side with transfers. I'll have to come up with some set piece routines too. 

 

It's much easier when you know the players. Do you have to wait until the next transfer window or can you start signing straight away? I know in some of the lower leagues free's can come in anytime which what I end up relying on.

Set pieces are like gold. If you're squeezing out a few extra goals for, and conceded a couple less a season, that can equate to enough points to make a really difference.

Well worth setting up them but make sure when you do that you also set up the takers properly too. I spent ages getting my set pieces right and then noticed in game the team wasn't going through them correctly. Then I realised it was because the people meant to be on the end of some of the passes were actually taking the kicks - the default free kick taker was one of my strikers in one case so there was a hole where he was meant to be tapping in the balls from the goal mouth scramble! Also, this might just be my FM, but every time I load up my hoofball tactic at a new team it wipes the set piece routines I have with it, so I have to load them again seperately.

I don't know if you've seen them but the Strikerless blog posts on set peices are really good.

https://strikerless.com/2018/11/09/do-you-even-delap/

https://strikerless.com/2018/11/19/defending-corners-and-other-set-pieces/

The corner one is really good. I always ignored defending corners other than putting players on the posts but actually in FM19 I've not noticed any benefit to having them on the posts so I've swapped to the 'banks' in that blog post instead. We're much better at defending corners now.

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Just had an example of the stats not matching up usefully with performance. Lost 1-0 to Runcorn Linnets, apparently only had 1 clear cut chance. But from watching the game I know the supporting players and TM were pretty much perfect and laid on at least 4 good chances for my pressing forward. Who blasted each and everyone one of them wide. So I lost not because of the tactic but because of a poor player.

His days are numbered.

 

Just been listening to my backlog of podcasts from Christmas and there's a shout out for @sparkyunited on 5* Potential podcast, tweeting about the benefits of a good PF/TM combo :D

Edited by Peljam
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I like a bit of hoofball. I've been farting around with an old fashioned 5-3-2 recently but I find the wingbacks don't quite offer the number of crosses I'd like, so will come back to that.

In the meantime I've moved over to a Leipzigish 4-4-2, all about lumping it long to the big man at every opportunity and getting the other 3 members of the forward line gathered around.

 

Screenshot 2019-01-09 at 09.45.17.png

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On 09/01/2019 at 09:45, ceefax the cat said:

I like a bit of hoofball. I've been farting around with an old fashioned 5-3-2 recently but I find the wingbacks don't quite offer the number of crosses I'd like, so will come back to that.

In the meantime I've moved over to a Leipzigish 4-4-2, all about lumping it long to the big man at every opportunity and getting the other 3 members of the forward line gathered around.

 

Screenshot 2019-01-09 at 09.45.17.png

Looks interesting, who's getting the goals for you? Is the TM working as the provider and the other 3 are getting the flick on's and knock downs? Or is the TM getting the ball back as the focal point because he's on attack duty?

I've been thinking about using IF's for my current team as my wingers seem pretty attacking but I'm not sure they are up to it, and I think I'd only really have maybe one IF and the other would still be back as a winger. I don't think my team are ready for an asymetric formation! It might blow their minds.

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Turns out goals are pretty evenly split between the strikers. They're both good in the air and the fullbacks put quite a lot of crosses in, plus they assist each other.

It's quite hard to get the DLP to be the one pumping it long - he just ends up passing it forwards normally even if I tell him to go direct. It's the fullbacks who do all my hoofing.

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1 hour ago, ceefax the cat said:

Turns out goals are pretty evenly split between the strikers. They're both good in the air and the fullbacks put quite a lot of crosses in, plus they assist each other.

It's quite hard to get the DLP to be the one pumping it long - he just ends up passing it forwards normally even if I tell him to go direct. It's the fullbacks who do all my hoofing.

I've got a standard, flat, 442 and I find too that my MC's aren't great at hoofing it. In my current team at least. They tend to get it to the wingers or go back to a DC.  I'm wondering if there's a PI that might or trait that might work here. Tries killer balls maybe? Riskier passes?

 

My backline are good hoofers though.

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5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Try long-range passes ;)

I had completely spaced out and forgotten that even existed.  :seagull: I just had 'Tries killer balls often' stuck in my head.

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Really interesting thread. I'm playing a youth academy challenge with Kettering Town and was stuck between tactics. This thread has inspired me to go all out with a direct tactic. 

 

I don't remember seeing training mentioned. What types of schedule is everyone using? I guess the best specific sessions would be physical, attacking direct, aerial defense, ball distribution (?), set pieces, resistance and quickness. 

 

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8 hours ago, davenumber40 said:

Really interesting thread. I'm playing a youth academy challenge with Kettering Town and was stuck between tactics. This thread has inspired me to go all out with a direct tactic. 

 

I don't remember seeing training mentioned. What types of schedule is everyone using? I guess the best specific sessions would be physical, attacking direct, aerial defense, ball distribution (?), set pieces, resistance and quickness. 

 

I've just been playing Kettering in my Little Oakley save. IIRC they're still part-time, right? I play a hoof-ball style at this level, but for the limited time we have for training and the frequent midweek matches I concentrate on the 4 match prep sessions. With the limited facilities and coaching quality along with the stark reality that young players with potential are not going to hang around, long-term training programs don't strike me as the best approach.

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On 13/01/2019 at 18:42, davenumber40 said:

Really interesting thread. I'm playing a youth academy challenge with Kettering Town and was stuck between tactics. This thread has inspired me to go all out with a direct tactic. 

 

I don't remember seeing training mentioned. What types of schedule is everyone using? I guess the best specific sessions would be physical, attacking direct, aerial defense, ball distribution (?), set pieces, resistance and quickness. 

 

Basically what @phnompenhandy says. I sometimes add in attacking set piece training though.

The schedules you've suggested sound sensible for full time though.

Edited by Peljam
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Kettering are still part time. You all are right about the training. I've been dedicating 3 of my 4 sessions a week to player development and only one to match prep. I've seen it in my results but I'm not ready to go up so I'm not really bothered. Once I have the players to fill out a team, I will have to really focus on league position. 

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On 16/01/2019 at 05:45, VinceLombardi said:

Any word on Brunt? Has he handled promotion well?

Bath/Brunt did really well over the first 10 games or so after gaining promotion to the National League.  He wasn't as dominant at the higher level but we adapted the tactics a little more to use him as a facilitator rather than the main scorer in a 4-1-4-1 setup which worked really well.  Given he has no movement or pace, we used him like a forward pivot so he could hold the ball up and have runners around him (think Viduka in his prime).  His scoring dropped, but he was fundamental to the setup and we would have likely been promoted or at least made playoffs but....

I encountered was a board takeover in January and they decided they wanted someone else to manage....luckily I was offered an interview with Oxford United and got the gig.  I then decided to buy Brunt and take him with me but he struggled two divisions above due to his lack of pace. It was a fun experiment, but his technical prowess didn't make up for his complete lack of movement.  

I did get Oxford promoted to the Championship though! We had the lowest wage budget in the division and managed to float around in mid-table for a couple of season before I got bored with the save so have parked it for now.  Without further investment from the board, that's where they'll stay.  

I've just started a Leyton Orient save and am trying to play a bit of Bielsa-ball Leeds style (4-1-4-1), to give the hoof-ball a rest for a while.   

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  • 1 month later...

Hows the longball going for everyone since the update?

Fina442.thumb.PNG.23e25cf3f1205f2bd525ce8c43a1d8db.PNG

I'm using this with my Rurutu Humpbacks team and it is working really well. The fullbacks and wingers are getting balls in to the targetman and pressing forward so much earlier, and getting the ball forward much more. The update seems to have just made it work so much better, the earlier crosses tweak and the playing optimal balls forward tweak has done the trick. I do need to rework some of my set-pieces, well the throw ins, but otherwise it is all good.

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On 03/03/2019 at 20:54, andre62 said:

can you share??

It’s pretty much the tactic in the screenshot plus:

- shoot less often on every midfielder and defender that it can be used on

- full backs cross early/from deep and deliver to target man.

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

This is really late, but in FM 16 I had a route one tactic that was nearly unbeatable in conf north, conf national and league 2.

The team I chose was chorley. Very small squad and no wage budget. So all I did was bring up a couple of U21 (rubbish) and I signed a decent RB and LB. Had no wingers or wide midfielder so I chose 5-3-2 narrow. Counter, Structured.

Drop deeper, be more disciplined, go route one, hit early crosses, higher tempo.

GK sweeper attack

RB attack (cross more, deeper,dribble less)

LDF x3 defend

LB same as RB

CM x2 defend (shoot less, tackle hard)

CM attack (shoot more)

Target man support (close down more, shoot more)

Poacher (close down more)

During games:

If target man swamped went to more direct passing. Or moved cm attack to shadow stricker

If losing overload, get stuck in and moved cm attack further forward to shadow striker position.

If leading by 2 goals: shorter passing, keep possession, lower tempo, changed both ST to defensive stickers close down much more, all cm to defend RB and LB limited defend role.

Worked a treat. First season 2nd, promoted via play offs. 

Second season (same squad, brought in few loans for cover) promoted as champions.

Third season same squad, survived by 5pts

Fourth season again just brought in loans but target man James dean just wasn't able stay fit so went from 4th to 12th in last 10games. If he had stayed fit deffo would've got playoffs.

I then tried it with Bolton (who I support) transfer embargo and not a great squad. Got promoted to premiership with a Clough and heskey partnership up front. Then had no laptop for 2yrs, have kids now too playing time limited....

Gna get 2020 though and see if it works.

Route one is far  more exciting to watch (on FM anyway). Always found though to many mistakes come from short passing... Conf north was best year... Was beating teams 4-0, 3-0 it was great. Then main rival always accepted a friendly for extra cash to keep board happy. Fans used to get on my back though for playing "weakened team" and worried about style of play.... Always thought that's a trick by game engine because it can't cope with long ball

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  • 5 months later...

Long live hoofball. I've tweaked it slightly, and have only played a few games, but it seems to be just as effective in the lower leagues for FM20 as it was FM19.

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Having fun with Hoofball with Lens for my beta save for FM20. I brought in an old friend, Lars Veldwijk from Sparta as my TM and he has forged a tremendous partnership with his strike partner Moukandjo.  With 19 goals between them in 17 games. 

 

image.thumb.png.b7d95530767c59ab7aff0789aa4d0c62.png

I've experimented a lot tactically and this version seems to be much more adaptive/responsive so far to in-game adjustments. I can usually find  ways during the match to exploit opposition weaknesses simply by looking at the Analysis heat map and eyeballing the match engine.  This aligns nicely with the Big Sam approach to Hoof ball. 

The striker movement is also much better with the Target Man being less static and dropping off defensively and linking beautifully with his partner when we win the ball back and feed him.  This allows me to keep my central midfielders as more of a double pivot, rather than using a BBM which would expose us more against a three-man midfield.  

Defensively, I'm going for the Pulis-style of trying to defend at the edge of the penalty box which seems to work better against long shots in this version which are OP (along with cross-field balls). I move my defensive line higher/lower as needed to defend this area. 

So far, I'm enjoying it. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, sparkyunited said:

Having fun with Hoofball with Lens for my beta save for FM20. I brought in an old friend, Lars Veldwijk from Sparta as my TM and he has forged a tremendous partnership with his strike partner Moukandjo.  With 19 goals between them in 17 games. 

 

image.thumb.png.b7d95530767c59ab7aff0789aa4d0c62.png

I've experimented a lot tactically and this version seems to be much more adaptive/responsive so far to in-game adjustments. I can usually find  ways during the match to exploit opposition weaknesses simply by looking at the Analysis heat map and eyeballing the match engine.  This aligns nicely with the Big Sam approach to Hoof ball. 

The striker movement is also much better with the Target Man being less static and dropping off defensively and linking beautifully with his partner when we win the ball back and feed him.  This allows me to keep my central midfielders as more of a double pivot, rather than using a BBM which would expose us more against a three-man midfield.  

Defensively, I'm going for the Pulis-style of trying to defend at the edge of the penalty box which seems to work better against long shots in this version which are OP (along with cross-field balls). I move my defensive line higher/lower as needed to defend this area. 

So far, I'm enjoying it. 

 

 

Looks good. Hows the IW working for you? Are they getting to the 2nd ball a lot from the strikers?

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On 04/11/2019 at 16:37, sparkyunited said:

Having fun with Hoofball with Lens for my beta save for FM20. I brought in an old friend, Lars Veldwijk from Sparta as my TM and he has forged a tremendous partnership with his strike partner Moukandjo.  With 19 goals between them in 17 games. 

 

image.thumb.png.b7d95530767c59ab7aff0789aa4d0c62.png

I've experimented a lot tactically and this version seems to be much more adaptive/responsive so far to in-game adjustments. I can usually find  ways during the match to exploit opposition weaknesses simply by looking at the Analysis heat map and eyeballing the match engine.  This aligns nicely with the Big Sam approach to Hoof ball. 

The striker movement is also much better with the Target Man being less static and dropping off defensively and linking beautifully with his partner when we win the ball back and feed him.  This allows me to keep my central midfielders as more of a double pivot, rather than using a BBM which would expose us more against a three-man midfield.  

Defensively, I'm going for the Pulis-style of trying to defend at the edge of the penalty box which seems to work better against long shots in this version which are OP (along with cross-field balls). I move my defensive line higher/lower as needed to defend this area. 

So far, I'm enjoying it. 

 

 

The best thing about this is your tactic being called simply "HOOF".  Great stuff  :thup:  :D 

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10 hours ago, OlivierL said:

Great article about hoofbal on dictate the game website and nice short video :

 

Thanks ;)

I didn't include it as an alternative in the article but an alt to 442 I've been trying is involves a IW like @sparkyunited and a shadow striker behind a TM.

 

Asym Hoof.PNG

Edited by Peljam
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8 minutes ago, Peljam said:

Thanks ;)

I didn't include it as an alternative but an alt to 442 I've been trying is involves a IW like @sparkyunited and a shadow striker behind a TM.

 

Asym Hoof.PNG

looks good , you are losing your 2 flat lines shape off course by putting the ML on the AML spot , no issues ?

Edited by OlivierL
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7 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

looks good , you are losing your 2 flat lines shape off course by putting the ML on the AML spot , no issues ?

A few. It is a bit of a balancing act. If we get caught out of position and they counter there's a huge hole behind the IW on the wing, and in front of the fullback (because he doesn't push up much).

I'm wondering if a wingback instead or getting rid of hold position on the LB will let them pivot a little a cover that gap.

At the moment though I'm just accepting it as the cost for getting the IW, SS and W behind the TM, ready to pick up the ball.

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faa525092506014e245a5798867ea2e7.png

this is my attempt. i want a wingback to do some overlap and the WM has cut inside.
All of them have tackling harder and cross deep and to TM if possible.

My GK needs to feed the ball to the NCB's and they should hoof the ball if possible.

In my first 4-4-2 flat attempt i used a MC roaming playmaker, but i want the b2b to get close to the strikers.

 

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The video is interesting but I think it misses out defensive depth. If the long ball team's forward line lacks pace then the simplest solution is to push up as high as you can. That way even if the CF wins the first ball and even if the smaller striker wins the second ball they're miles from goal and as long as you have decent pace at the back you should be able to recover. Another strategy involving the high defensive line is simply pushing up in order to pull a centre forward back because he doesn't want to be caught offside when the ball is punted forward. Its a really great strategy because to some extent the CF is powerless to decide where he receives the ball, the defensive team do that by placing their defensive line. There are many ways to play long ball football and many ways to counter it.

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17 hours ago, Peljam said:

Has anyone tried hoofball since the lastest update? Any changes? I've not had a chance to load up my Belfast save.

I have as Bolton with good success. 5-3-2 have D. Murphy as target man, great with flick ones and attacking far post with corners. I also have Luke Murphy as a box to box with shoot more often.

My FBs have cross more and from deep aiming at target man. So they boot it up, its flicked on or held up and laid off, Murphy then smashes it in. Or win a free and D. Murphy heads in at back post.

Also use 2 No no- nonsense CB to pump ball up.

I'm going to try it with newry when the main game comes out.

Tried it with Derry just haven't got a tough squad. Still use a target man but with wing play

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Each year I try to do this and fail and end up reverting back to using knaps tactics.

I play with Burnley, which should be the perfect team to pull this kind of tactic off, but can never do so.

The statistics in the game just turn against you if you play direct passing, at least in the premier league.

I first tried to set up my own tactic, kept things basic with a 4-4-2, deep line and engagement, crosses from deep, TM Suport and PF Attack. Simple wingers on support and fullbacks support. standard centre backs, A BBM and DPL in CM position, team mentality defensive. No dice, bottom of the league, by some way.

Then I decided to change some roles based on things I've read in this thread, went to full back defend instead, NCB instead of CB and a DLP and BWM in the centre, standard wingers still but upped the mentality to attacking. Still no dice.

If anything, I'd say the more conservative roles make your team play worse.

I have (once again) given up and am using one of knaps 442's and win the next game easily, even when my players aren't even familiar with any part of the tactic...

I think what is mentioned in the other thread is true, the game favours attacking football by far and whilst you may be able to play more direct in the lower leagues, the gap between bottom Premier League teams and top premier league sides is too big. Its stupid and unrealistic. Not everyone wants to play attacking, pretty short passing football.

I want to recreate the shithouse tactics that work so well for Burnley and others in real life.

There's something wrong with the game I think...

Edited by Diegotimmy
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There's no reason why direct can't be attacking. My latest version has an attacking mentality. I've had it work in the championship and premiership (and SPL) in FM19. I don't think FM20 is so different it can't work, it might just take a little bit of time.

 

Not all hoofball is created equal. The Burnley way is different from Watford, from Wimbledon, from Stoke, from Bolton etc. I'd keep at it.

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I’ve never ever tried to play direct football. I seen an article by dictate the game and had a go closely copying there tactic.i couldn’t believe the amount of chances created so easily.  I’m Bolton and wanted to replicate big Sam. But would like a dash of Dyche. So my question is can you play “hoof ball” with a low block/mid block? 
 

also any ideas on training would be much appreciated 

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, a low(ish) block does make more sense when it comes to hoofball than a high one.

Only if you've got pace up front. If you've got big men then you need to get them as close to goal as possible because they can't run in behind. The English leagues are perhaps best known for their use of the hoof. Traditionally you'd either have a big lump and a little speedster in which case you'd go for a mid-block. If you had two little speedsters you might well go for a low block. If you had two big lumps you'd use a high block.

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So this is my current Hoof. I've moved on a bit from the one I had in the Dictate the Game article, and to be honest it is pretty similar to the tactic I used in FM19 (I've got the same name for the style!). Which is to be expected as the same principles apply.

 

I'm getting a lot of chances in the box now. Not excessive amounts but I'm getting very little in the way of shots outside the box, or from tight angles. I like to work out my xG and it has increased by a decent amount since swapping to this - by about .5 which on its own doesn't sound huge but it's moved me to about 2xG a game now which is a healthy amount for a minnow with a £500pw budget.

 

EDIT: I should add this tires players out. I've had to change the rest settings in training. The first two condition ratings (60-70 I think) are now no training as we can't kick and rush, and press, and survive.

Hoofharder.PNG

Edited by Peljam
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On 27/11/2019 at 16:21, Peljam said:

So this is my current Hoof. I've moved on a bit from the one I had in the Dictate the Game article, and to be honest it is pretty similar to the tactic I used in FM19 (I've got the same name for the style!). Which is to be expected as the same principles apply.

 

I'm getting a lot of chances in the box now. Not excessive amounts but I'm getting very little in the way of shots outside the box, or from tight angles. I like to work out my xG and it has increased by a decent amount since swapping to this - by about .5 which on its own doesn't sound huge but it's moved me to about 2xG a game now which is a healthy amount for a minnow with a £500pw budget.

 

EDIT: I should add this tires players out. I've had to change the rest settings in training. The first two condition ratings (60-70 I think) are now no training as we can't kick and rush, and press, and survive.

Hoofharder.PNG

That's pretty much the same as the stock park the bus preset, with a few tweaks.

I've tried a second season now with Burnley, trying the same thing. Never works, always get trounced.

I find it frustrating and have accepted another year of FM not being able to make my own tactic. It may work in the lower leagues but doesn't in the premier league. I think if you set up a team like in real life, they should at least perform similarly, whats the point of the presets if none of them even work?

I feel the match engine favors too much short passing. Teams that play with that tactic by default always over-perform (Norwich always top half of the premier league each 2019-20 season) yet playing direct you suffer.

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22 hours ago, Diegotimmy said:

That's pretty much the same as the stock park the bus preset, with a few tweaks.

I've tried a second season now with Burnley, trying the same thing. Never works, always get trounced.

I find it frustrating and have accepted another year of FM not being able to make my own tactic. It may work in the lower leagues but doesn't in the premier league. I think if you set up a team like in real life, they should at least perform similarly, whats the point of the presets if none of them even work?

I feel the match engine favors too much short passing. Teams that play with that tactic by default always over-perform (Norwich always top half of the premier league each 2019-20 season) yet playing direct you suffer.

I agree that the match engine has tended to favour short passing. I think the ME has always favoured what is in favour so gegenpressing recently, tiki taka before that. And almost always short passing for some years now, just because thats how modern football tends to be. Direct doesn't get the same love as it's not as common at the top and just isn't as fashionable. I think Wilson refers to it in Inverting the Pyramid as 'the right of the weak'. Even when it's working youll still get the ass man saying you should pass it short!

On the other point though park the bus is pretty different even on just the TI's. You can't see the PI's above in mine but they are a bit different as well.

 

image.thumb.png.32388c1cad476d9a2eef61258619f465.png

 

Less flexible, more defensive by default, lower tempo, time wasting, slowing pace down, less urgent etc. There's some overlap but the park the bus default is slow and safe. The one I've gone for is more blood and thunder. Risky passes, more pressing and tackling, no wasting of time, quick transitions for the long ball. It does work well in the lower leagues. I've had almost the same tactic work in FM19 in the EPL and SPL.

 

Defensive Wingers over standard wingers (on support and attack) really change the transitions and attacks as well. I end up with the MR often scoring after picking up the ball from the TM. Having a BWN and DLP in the park the bus leaves the team deeper. Having a box to box again gives you an attack man in attack or for the second ball. With hoof harder hoof longer you can end up with 4 up front or 3 with one in the hole fairly often.

 

Park the Bus preset is more try not to die. The one I've been using is more die trying.

Edited by Peljam
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That's a great analogy...die trying...

I'm working on some other tactical approaches right now (i.e. purely reactive based on opposition analysis) but will be coming back to the Hoof soon enough. 

I did some analysis and experimentation with PulisBall in a 4-4-1-1 from his Stoke era in the beta (including a Delap-long thrower), so want to pick that back up at some point. 

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@Peljam my bad, I think I was mixing up the wing play and park the bus presets. Between my two failed seasons I actually had better luck starting with wing play and tweaking it from there. I also has significantly better results using a DLF and AF than I did a TM/PF.

Part of the issue with the match engine and going hoofball is the reliance on your target man. If you try to emulate that kind of hoofball in real life and every ball in the game is practically hoofed at one guy, if that one guy doesn't best others in the league for aerial attributes, he will fail.

Aside for this though, the "mentality" part of the tactic engine seems rather unrealistic to me. It seems instead to adjust how much players to attack, it only adjusts how players take risks.

Yes when you attack more you naturally take more risks, but that is not how hoofball works. It should be a tactical approach with defense first, no risks. 

In the match engine, at least to me it seems like the only way you can play safe successfully is by having short passing, possession based football. That works well, even on defensive mentality.

With direct passing you have to go attacking, and you can't do well this way if you are lower than average squad because your form and morale will be destroyed by big teams.

The "take more risks/take less risk" instruction to me just seems like an extension to mentality, yet if you try a balanced or defensive approach, you can't find success, even with this extra control.

The other thing I noticed was the auto flexibility change. To get the team to defend as a unit you have to be able to use a very fluid approach, which means your players almost exclusively need basic and support roles...without that strikers do not come back and defend the lines, which is stupid because having a pressing forward on defend, or other defensive roles should have the same effect in a structured formation.

Some big changes again in 20.2 to the match engine and the game has just got even harder. I'm close to quitting the game right now as I'm just finding it far, far too difficult.

I agree with the defensive winger thing, they are almost more attacking than wingers are on support.

Edited by Diegotimmy
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9 hours ago, Peljam said:

I agree that the match engine has tended to favour short passing. I think the ME has always favoured what is in favour so gegenpressing recently, tiki taka before that. And almost always short passing for some years now, just because thats how modern football tends to be. Direct doesn't get the same love as it's not as common at the top and just isn't as fashionable. I think Wilson refers to it in Inverting the Pyramid as 'the right of the weak'. Even when it's working youll still get the ass man saying you should pass it short!

On the other point though park the bus is pretty different even on just the TI's. You can't see the PI's above in mine but they are a bit different as well.

 

image.thumb.png.32388c1cad476d9a2eef61258619f465.png

 

Less flexible, more defensive by default, lower tempo, time wasting, slowing pace down, less urgent etc. There's some overlap but the park the bus default is slow and safe. The one I've gone for is more blood and thunder. Risky passes, more pressing and tackling, no wasting of time, quick transitions for the long ball. It does work well in the lower leagues. I've had almost the same tactic work in FM19 in the EPL and SPL.

 

Defensive Wingers over standard wingers (on support and attack) really change the transitions and attacks as well. I end up with the MR often scoring after picking up the ball from the TM. Having a BWN and DLP in the park the bus leaves the team deeper. Having a box to box again gives you an attack man in attack or for the second ball. With hoof harder hoof longer you can end up with 4 up front or 3 with one in the hole fairly often.

 

Park the Bus preset is more try not to die. The one I've been using is more die trying.

Interesting. This is very, very similar to the tactic that I've just developed for my new save. Out of curiosity what are your PI's?

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my problem with hoofball is, I never see enough hoofing.

I had a tactic in Ukraine last year designed to be hoofball, passing and tempo long, 442, defence sitting deep and idea was to get long balls up to the target man and get support around him.

All we ended up doing was actually playing nice, progressive football at good tempo.

The boys were actually passing too short

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5 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

my problem with hoofball is, I never see enough hoofing.

I had a tactic in Ukraine last year designed to be hoofball, passing and tempo long, 442, defence sitting deep and idea was to get long balls up to the target man and get support around him.

All we ended up doing was actually playing nice, progressive football at good tempo.

The boys were actually passing too short

NCB's?

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