Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community

Recommended Posts

Post reserved - will try to add a few videos from games

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks promising. Route One soccer isn't pleasing to the eye so that's why I don't usually make those systems myself. Good to see some success with such a "negative" game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This looks really good. It's great seeing someone set up a keeper for this style, it's something I was doing not so long ago and the results were surprising. Especially which how effective it was at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tried something like this myself but it didn't click. I still rely upon match stats too much, despite knowing they're not a be all and end all. 

 

Got promoted S1 with Oldham, so I may give this a go in the championship!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would love to be able to play this way. Never managed to get it work, unfortunately. Will reread this article and try and absorb some ideas.

Its a pity that the video of the Graham Taylor interview doesn't work. Would have loved to seen that.

Edited by Atarin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Cleon how would you go about turning this into a functioning 4-4-2?

Edited by Atarin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2017 at 18:12, Atarin said:

@Cleon how would you go about turning this into a functioning 4-4-2?

It's worth looking at Cleon's site for the article about the Arsenal invincibles team as it has the base for a direct style of play.

The Graham Taylor video above also gives clues as how he'd setup a direct 4-4-2 with the positioning of the blue markers.  If you ignore the one to many that is :)

Of particular note is the variation he mentions of playing in behind the defence for forward to run on to in the chanels or playing into a forward to control the ball and then bring others into play.  I think he chose his words quite well when explaing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 02/10/2017 at 19:12, Atarin said:

@Cleon how would you go about turning this into a functioning 4-4-2?

As someone who likes long-ball football, I'll tell you how I would try to do it with a 442 (provided you have the right players):

TMs    P

 

IWs    BWMd    BtBM    WMs

 

FBs    CDd     CDc     IWBd

GK

Standard/Highly Structured

TIs: lower tempo, go route one, play narrower, early crosses

GK - slow pace down, long kick, distribute to TM

IWs - get further forward, sit narrower

BtBM - get further forward, more risky passes

WMs - hold position, stay wider, cross from deep, cross to TM

FBs - stay wider, cross from deep, cross to TM

TM & P - close down more

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I've been looking for.  :)  Nice read.  Going to try this out, although I don't really have a suitable target man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah fantastic thread, just the sort of football I always love to try to create (often unsuccessfully) 

Often I find with 'long ball' football that I encounter the same problems:

1) Giving the ball away a lot and having to rush back into a defensive shape almost immediately. The usual issue being that the ball is lumped forward to a target man, he is surrounded by defenders and crowded out. Even the best target men struggle in that situation. When teams learn to sit back against you a bit more it becomes even more difficult to find space.

2) Having to sit back and defend a lot is pretty stressful and requires a team who can sit back and concentrate and keep position well. I rarely manage to keep clean sheets this way. 

3) I guess the other option would be to play a very high, very intense block/press meaning that you are actively trying to win the ball back and lump it further forward. This could work as it means your target man is closer to goal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Yeah fantastic thread, just the sort of football I always love to try to create (often unsuccessfully) 

Often I find with 'long ball' football that I encounter the same problems:

1) Giving the ball away a lot and having to rush back into a defensive shape almost immediately. The usual issue being that the ball is lumped forward to a target man, he is surrounded by defenders and crowded out. Even the best target men struggle in that situation. When teams learn to sit back against you a bit more it becomes even more difficult to find space.

2) Having to sit back and defend a lot is pretty stressful and requires a team who can sit back and concentrate and keep position well. I rarely manage to keep clean sheets this way. 

3) I guess the other option would be to play a very high, very intense block/press meaning that you are actively trying to win the ball back and lump it further forward. This could work as it means your target man is closer to goal. 

I tried something similar to what you mentioned in point 3 with helsingsborgs, weirdly the inspiration came after watching a documentary on Jack Charltons Ireland team, was set up like this; (flexible/attacking) TI's, close down much more, go route one, hit early crosses, clear ball to flanks, pass into space

gk-d

fb-s dcb dcb fb-s

dw-s cm-d bwm-s dw-s 

df-s tm-a 

The aim was to turn the opposition as quickly as possible by putting it into the space behind the oppo full backs for the winger and df to chase, was brutally effective, won promotion in first season and then the league in my second season, unfortunately my save died as I tried to tinker with my approach, a rookie mistake. I defo think this approach can be effective however I made many signings prioritising work rate, height, strength and teamwork (I didnt have a player under 6ft) and i think without these I wouldnt have been successful as the tactic itself has quite a lot of flaws

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This post has inspired me to reignite my Crazy Gang Wimbledon save, and really try something a bit different regarding Route one tactics. 

Usually I go with a defensive mentality, inspired by Pulis, to sit back and wait for chances to come to me, hitting long balls behind the opposition. This does however result in some panicky play and lots of goals conceded. Also I don't like the style of football, it doesn't feel like it embodied how I imagined my new Crazy Gang.

My set up is this:

442 or 4411

GK - Sweeper keeper support, distribute to target man, more risky passes. I really wanted to make this guy the hub of my attacks, rather than just a boring GK.

DR - Support - Cross more. Both Fullbacks need to be starting attacks.
DL - Support
Defensive CB - Neither of my defenders are great on the ball, and I want them lumping it far more.
Ball Playing CB - This guy is a bit better and I want him also starting moves.. but directly.

Inverted Winger left  Attack - Want this guy to be speeding up the left but also running into the box to cause panic
Winger Right Support - Need lots of crosses
Central mid Defend
Central mid Support

Target man  - Fewer risky passes, Tackle Harder
Poacher / Shadow Striker 

The main change however is that I go Overload / Highly Structured. This seems suicidal but the Team Shape means that my defenders are actually not very attacking and there is loads of room between the strata for those long passes. It results in tons of chances, and the big difference is that when I lump balls up front there is plenty of support there straight away.

 

Also should note that I lowered tempo often because Overloads tempo is stupidly high and it leads to lots of rushed passes. Lowering it just a little seems to be enough to bring some common sense to the decision making.

The football is certainly Crazy though. And successful too.



 

Edited by johnnyyakuza78

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Jommelb said:

Keep us posted, I like the idea, but it seems a little extreme. 

On paper it sounds extreme but when I look at the balance of mentalities using Highly Structured it really isn’t all that bad.

It does result in far more shots and a lot of running around, but actually that is exactly the sort of all action football I wanted to create. I’m building a team of workers and nutters who are fast and strong and so this fits perfectly. 

Ill have to see how it does against bigger teams though, I doubt it will survive long against them. But my issue with Hoofball tactics is how poorly they do against teams who sit deep against you, this has helped me over come that so far.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without overtaking this topic (the OP doesn't seem to be that active anyway) I thought I would update where I got to using my overload Hoofball tactic. 

The good news:

1) I got AFC Wimbledon promoted in my second season, expectation being avoid relegation. We came second to a rampant Blackburn side.
2) My side played in a way that fitted my design in that it was a style of football based around long balls, hard tackling and lots of running around.
3) We came first for goals scored and almost last for possession.

The bad news:

1) My overload tactic needed constant tweaking and really struggled against good sides or when the target man and attacking forward weren't performing. These long ball tactics are heavily reliant on my strikers being clinical and doing their job and sometimes that didn't happen. I often needed to play with defensive line, width and tempo to get things improving.
2) I conceded a lot of goals. I was letting 3-4 goals in some matches and it simply isn't sustainable. Even with a lower defensive line and defending mids the ball is coming back at you a lot and your team is heavily stretched. 
3) I had to create a second tactic that is closer to my usual Pulis counter hoofball. This kept clean sheets far better and actually feels very close to how many long ball sides play when holding a lead or playing against big sides. I'm disappointed this was necessary and I'm a little angry at myself for not sticking to my principles when in pursuit of glory. 

scorers.thumb.jpg.056a05271186963dcfda32da25b84a3c.jpg

Almost all my goals came from my 3 best strikers. Taylor and Appiah are fantastic speed merchants and I bought Ollie Palmer to be my target man, he is as one dimensional as they come but he pops up with a lot of goals too mainly due to Taylor's movement.
table2019.thumb.jpg.223ff4495814464bbfa9c7c52987442d.jpg
Top goal scorers in the league.
possession.thumb.jpg.c00818b8561deb540c35a045bb24c496.jpg
Second bottom for possession however, Exeter must be really bad!


 tactic2.thumb.jpg.e0487a15b556a4e1e00f8733f0965a2d.jpg
This is my counter tactic, its got the core of the overload tactic but its far closer to a Pulis style Hoofball. My defence and midfield are pretty unambitious, the fullbacks are instructed to sit narrower, my wingers work hard to protect the flanks, my GK hits it to the TM a lot. 

Many of my goals seem to come from a long pass out from my DCB , bypassing midfield and hitting Taylor. That feels good. 

So overall very happy with my Hoofball this season, sad that I can't manage to play the insane Overload tactic every game, but  I do tend to start with it, hoping to grab a goal and then sit back. Next season might be a struggle, but my ambition is to bring in better wingers and more hard tackling midfielders to add some bit. I also want to convert some Central Defenders into Defensive Full backs. 
 

Edited by johnnyyakuza78

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No worries about overtaking the thread, feel free to use it for sharing your own hoofball experiences.

I’m now waiting for FM19 to come out, planning on sticking with anti-football for my only save. Would love to take one of the more obscure non-league clubs to the top playing long ball all the way. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for this thread. I'm been trying to put together a Wimbledon inspired tactic for my Scarborough team and this thread really helped (as did watching the Crazy Gang documentary and shouting 'STICK IT IN THE MIXER!' at my players).

I've tried a 4411, a 442 (flat), a 41221 with edited versions of the route one preset. But based on the above (and the fact none of those were very attacking), I've now settled on what is essentially a 424. I'm getting more shots, kicking the crap out of the other teams and playing genuine hoofs. Needs some tweaking but next step is to buy a decent and unhinged targetman. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Scoham said:

A quick tip, I was looking to see which young players bigger north eastern clubs had released, it seems they’re no longer shown on the “All” transfers out page. You need to change the drop down to youth, so “All” actually means first team.

Thanks for the tip. I missed that when setting up with Scarborough. Recruitment seems key at this level. I've got the tactic set up in a way that should work, and I'm seeing flashes of violent brilliance but my players were terrible (my fault, I signed them) and just couldn't do it. Strikers were too slow for the ball behind, but too weak for the chaos of a true targetman role. Midfielders were playing long balls rather than long passes which my terrible strikers couldn't rescue.

The dream with Scarborough is over but I think I've tweaked the tactic to a point where the right recruitment next time should work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love a good hoofball setup, and this will likely be my first attempt in the new save. I'm thinking about a basic 4-4-2 with simple settings.

GK/D

FB/S - LD/D - LD/D - FB/S

W/A - BWM/D - CM/S - W/A

TM/S - P/A

Mentality Standard

More direct passing

Get Stuck In

Stick to Positions

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I might stick my latest tactic in here tomorrow. I've gone for a 523 as my wingers are terrible.

 

I have my Fullbacks or Wingbacks cross from deep to the targetman. The targetman is on support and has a poacher and a false9 or an advanced forward playing off them.

2 hours ago, kingjericho said:

I love a good hoofball setup, and this will likely be my first attempt in the new save. I'm thinking about a basic 4-4-2 with simple settings.

GK/D

FB/S - LD/D - LD/D - FB/S

W/A - BWM/D - CM/S - W/A

TM/S - P/A

Mentality Standard

More direct passing

Get Stuck In

Stick to Positions

Targetman/Poacher combo seems like the way to go I think. I have my central pair set up like yours (though sometimes I have the CM/S as a DLP/S).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure how everyone else is doing with the glorious hoofball in FM19 but I've been struggling (until my latest season). I made a few rookie errors and got to the point were I had a flat back 5 and an anchor man hoofing to increasingly isolated (and rubbish) strikers. It was not effective and although I was getting most of my goals from long balls, through balls and deep crosses I wasn't getting many goals overall, and I was shipping a lot of goals in return. I did (across two seasons) have the most tackles, fouls and yellow cards - and the least possession.

I think the biggest mistake I made was ignoring the cautious mentality on the pre-set. I just thought I couldn't attack properly with a cautious mentality, that cautious would equal less shots and attacking would equal more. But actually having the cautious mentality means the long balls are actually more useful long passes that penetrate the defense properly, and if you have the right movement you end up with quite a few shots.

I moved to a new club (Portadown, a step up from Grantham and Scarborough) and started from scratch. Made a few changes to the general instructions, and to the fullback instructions. I have a 442 now and it is working wonders. I'm scoring more, I have more shots (with my old system I averaged about 6 shots a game. I'm now averaging about 13), and I have more clean sheets. The goals are mainly from long passes, crosses from deep or from set piece scrambles.

I've actually got 3 versions of the 442. One that is pure long ball (and is doing wonders), one that is based on the direct counter preset, and a 442 for retaining possession (which I've not used much but is there if I need to protect a lead against a smaller side).

If they work this season I'll post the long ball one. The main changes though from the preset have been to add pass into space, lower time wasting, distribute to the centre backs, and to change both fullbacks to cross from deep + cross to targetman.

Edited by Peljam
STICK IT IN THE MIXER!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Peljam said:

Not sure how everyone else is doing with the glorious hoofball in FM19 but I've been struggling (until my latest season). I made a few rookie errors and got to the point were I had a flat back 5 and an anchor man hoofing to increasingly isolated (and rubbish) strikers. It was not effective and although I was getting most of my goals from long balls, through balls and deep crosses I wasn't getting many goals overall, and I was shipping a lot of goals in return. I did (across two seasons) have the most tackles, fouls and yellow cards - and the least possession.

I think the biggest mistake I made was ignoring the cautious mentality on the pre-set. I just thought I couldn't attack properly with a cautious mentality, that cautious would equal less shots and attacking would equal more. But actually having the cautious mentality means the long balls are actually more useful long passes that penetrate the defense properly, and if you have the right movement you end up with quite a few shots.

I moved to a new club (Portadown, a step up from Grantham and Scarborough) and started from scratch. Made a few changes to the general instructions, and to the fullback instructions. I have a 442 now and it is working wonders. I'm scoring more, I have more shots (with my old system I averaged about 6 shots a game. I'm now averaging about 13), and I have more clean sheets. The goals are mainly from long passes, crosses from deep or from set piece scrambles.

I've actually got 3 versions of the 442. One that is pure long ball (and is doing wonders), one that is based on the direct counter preset, and a 442 for retaining possession (which I've not used much but is there if I need to protect a lead against a smaller side).

If they work this season I'll post the long ball one. The main changes though from the preset have been to add pass into space, lower time wasting, distribute to the centre backs, and to change both fullbacks to cross from deep + cross to targetman.

I have tried to create a longball tactic with a poacher and a TM, but have been unsuccessful so far. Hope this works for you because it would be interesting to hear more about your tactic. 

If you don't mind me asking, what roles do you use on the midfield flanks? Do you stick to the preset roles? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mindtrick_42 said:

I have tried to create a longball tactic with a poacher and a TM, but have been unsuccessful so far. Hope this works for you because it would be interesting to hear more about your tactic. 

If you don't mind me asking, what roles do you use on the midfield flanks? Do you stick to the preset roles? 

I've stuck mainly to the roles. I've sometimes swapped them over - so the default has the attacking winger on the right. I move them to the left depending on who I have available. If I do that then I flip the front two around as well so the tactic is mirrored.

 

130595568_PortaPush.thumb.PNG.42e39dc055078a54fc686f74a9e4f2a0.PNG

 

So this is my normal long ball.

1626064321_InPossesion.thumb.PNG.ca238a4a782b84bf137830368f4d7f06.PNG

In possesion I've added pass into space, removed time waiting and changed creative freedom to more expressive.

1626424790_FBinstructions.PNG.84b3000e8f40c836fea07407f3a79c9d.PNG

Both fullbacks have these instructions. I've also told the BBM to shoot less often, and depending on the wingers I also tell them to shoot less often usually.

 

Transition.thumb.PNG.bce6146db64034fe2a147662aebf15ef.PNG

I've told the GK to roll it out quickly to the CB's. Because they are no nonsense the CB's then tend to hoof it forward centrally for the TM or the PF to run onto, or they pass to the FB's who either cross from deep or get it to the wingers who are likely to try and cross further up the pitch. If your keeper is marked then they tend to hoof it forward anyway.

I decided on that rather than distribute to the TM or over the defense because I find getting it to the CB's first means the opposition move a bit whereas straight from the keeper they tend to have regrouped and be in a better defensive position. Plus my keeper isn't great at kicking it that far. I think I might mix it up and go for distrubute to the TM or over the top of the defense if I get a better kicker, and a faster Pressing Forward. I can't bring anyone in at the moment.

 

OutofP.thumb.PNG.e808d3427824923695bc7d7eb6eb140b.PNG

I can't remember if I made many changes here. I think I upped the pressing urgency a touch, made sure get stuck in was on. I might have made the line of engagement slightly higher because of the pressing forward. He's nicked a goal so far.

 

It's still early days but I've played 9 with the new tactics, won 6, drawn 3. Goals For: 15, Goals Against: 5, with 5 clean sheets.

 

Assists.thumb.PNG.72d7f4ca727f1598cc518d59bc59f340.PNG

This has the last 10 games. The game I played before the long ball I lost 2-1, and that's where that single short pass goal has come from. This tool is really good for working out where the goals are coming from but it does tend to say it's a through ball assist rather than a long ball. I think some of those through balls were closer to the long ball.

I've not made any set piece changes yet. I think at the end of the season I might tweak things to include more long throws.  Hope this helps!

If not here's my long ball counter...

 

811487651_PortaCounter.thumb.PNG.ac9b9d97d2af31d3098483def9ce863c.PNG

Mainly the preset positions. Made the same changes to the FB instructions, and shoot less instructions. The main difference is the distribution in transition. I've not used this much yet so I don't know how it holds up.

 

EDIT: My tally of goals for and against from the schedule doesn't seem to match the data analysis. Fixtures below. Larne was the non-new long ball. Everything after is glorious hoofball.

Fixtures.thumb.PNG.c68aa405069c8c55e5c8f47ec5dc6c04.PNG

Edited by Peljam
'Ave it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm using almost the same formation and tactic .

Mentally / shape  : control  / structured

TI : pass into space , deeper line , whipper cross . 

Issue : I lost lots possession when my 2 wbs have ball , DLPs at the position help me a little bit than I use DMs . 

 

                          CFs

                          AMs 

                 BBMs    CMa

   WBs             DLPs              WBs

              CDs   CDd  CDs 

                         GK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, z464 said:

I'm using almost the same formation and tactic .

Mentally / shape  : control  / structured

TI : pass into space , deeper line , whipper cross . 

Issue : I lost lots possession when my 2 wbs have ball , DLPs at the position help me a little bit than I use DMs . 

 

                          CFs

                          AMs 

                 BBMs    CMa

   WBs             DLPs              WBs

              CDs   CDd  CDs 

                         GK

How are they losing possession? Are they getting tackled whilst on the ball? Or passing long to the CF or AM but getting intercepted/delivering a poor ball?

I'm no expert but I'd be tempted to change that AMs to a TMs and change the CF role to attacking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Peljam said:

How are they losing possession? Are they getting tackled whilst on the ball? Or passing long to the CF or AM but getting intercepted/delivering a poor ball?

I'm no expert but I'd be tempted to change that AMs to a TMs and change the CF role to attacking.

Both situation happened to me .  

After I turned my DMs to DLPs , both wbs will pass to DLP rather than pass long forward or losing the ball at own half . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Peljam said:

I'm no expert but I'd be tempted to change that AMs to a TMs and change the CF role to attacking.

Absolutely :thup: Long-ball football requires a TM and works better with 2 strikers than with a lone one. Depending on the formation you use and on the TM's duty, the other striker should be either a poacher/AF or DLF/CF. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Absolutely :thup: Long-ball football requires a TM and works better with 2 strikers than with a lone one. Depending on the formation you use and on the TM's duty, the other striker should be either a poacher/AF or DLF/CF. 

I think pressing forward works quite well too, on attack, as a partner for the TM. They seem to stay pretty advanced and are a real pain for the defenders. I really like the PFa and TMs combo that I have. My counter has a PFd and AFa and pressing forward on defend, if it's the right player, cuts down the time the opposition have on the ball in defense amazingly well.

Poacher works well too as you say. I think for me the Graham Taylor video about the two types of direct passing, to the body/feet or to space, really helps with sorting out the pairing you need for your strikers. With one striker if it goes to the player then they have no one ahead of them, or on the shoulder of the defense, to pass to. They can only hold it up, or pass back - and that's not hoofball really. If the ball is constantly going into space with only one player for the defense to pick up they are going to lose it or be marked out of it more often than not.

But if you have one striker who is cut out more for the ball to body, and one that is waiting for the flick on or the ball to space, you have so many more options. I really wish I'd used targetmen more in past FM's. I barely touched them before FM19.

 

2 hours ago, z464 said:

Both situation happened to me .  

After I turned my DMs to DLPs , both wbs will pass to DLP rather than pass long forward or losing the ball at own half . 

Playmakers tend to be the creative forces, or the conductors, in a team. I'm guessing your WB's might struggle to see a good pass if you've only got one up front so go short/sideways to the DLP instead. They take creative priority/control. When you had just DMs maybe the WB's were freer to take a punt on a long pass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick update. Don't want to spam too much.

I've got to the end of the season with Portadown. Joined 16 games into the season, have played 22 league games, 20 of those with long ball, and 9 cup games.

Headlines:

  • When I joined they were 10th (there are 12 in the league), when I finished we were 7th
  • We won the FA Cup, and the world renowned Mid-Ulster Cup.
  • In the league we won 9, lost 5, drew 6 for a total of 33 points.
  • That's 1.65pts per game and would have been enough for 5th place so not a league winning PPG yet.
  • In the Cups we won 6 in normal time, and needed to go to ET for 3. We didn't go to penalties at any point.
  • Across the 29 games we had a points haul of the equivalent (assuming 6 wins and 3 draws for the cups) of 54 and a PPG of 1.82
  • Across the 29 games we had 298 shots, and 169 of those were on target (about 10 shots, 6 on target, on average per game).
  • Across the 29 games we scored 48, conceded 24.
  • According to the goal/assist stats (for the last 30 as it won't let me select 29)  only 4 goals came from short passes, 1 from a mistake, 0 from square balls or medium passes. The majority came from through balls or long balls, or corners (about 2-1 for the ratio of long/through compared to corners).

 

Verdict?

Hoofball is life. I'm a complete convert to it.

My squad isn't great so I think with some slight improvements to the actual players, and bit more squad depth, I think I can up the points per game. I used the main longball tactic as outline above for most games but swapped in the direct counter version for a couple of key games against bigger sides or when I was a few goals ahead in a game I knew the other side needed to win. It didn't always work, but when it did it was amazing (a 5-0 win against Linfield, and a 1-0 final win against my bigger rivals Glenavon).

In true hoofball style the games we struggled in were those where the opposition retained position more and patiently built up or when our 1st choice TM and PF were tired/injured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Peljam Really enjoying your posts. Keep up the good work! 

I'm gonna give the long ball tactic another go,  where I want to build a direct and strong team. Club DNA will most likely include bravery, determination, workrate and teamwork. 

Also, I want to play 442, and one of the most important players should be the targetman.

Now I just need to find a fun team to start with :)

Edited by Mindtrick_42

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep up the good work. I'm inspired to create a long ball tactic after reading this.

My beta save is with livorno in serie B. I started with a narrow formation and it was doing OK but we weren't creating many chances. Then I tried to recreate my favourite tactic from fm18 (a 4231 with a regista) but its just not working although to be honest I probably haven't got the players for it. So I'm going to use livorno to develop a long ball tactic and then will use it when I start my first long term save. Which will be lower league either  France (US Créteil - if I can find a French lower league DB) or England. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Peljam said:

I think pressing forward works quite well too, on attack, as a partner for the TM

Probably yes, according to the description of PF, but I'm still playing FM18, so I haven't tested him yet. That's the only reason I did not mention PF :D

11 hours ago, Peljam said:

With one striker if it goes to the player then they have no one ahead of them, or on the shoulder of the defense, to pass to. They can only hold it up, or pass back - and that's not hoofball really. If the ball is constantly going into space with only one player for the defense to pick up they are going to lose it or be marked out of it more often than not.

This is absolutely true :thup: What I also like about hoofball is that it can be used as a tactical style with any type of mentality (defensive, balanced, offensive). And I would just add that for a successful implementation of hoofball, these basic principles are key:

- a strong and tall TM as the focal point of your attacks

- ideally a two-striker partnership, or at least 2 AMCs behind the lone TM, one of which should perform SS role

- fullbacks (or wingbacks, depending on the formation) as the primary providers of crosses for the TM

- narrow(er) width, so that the TM is being supported by as many players as possible (width is already provided by FBs/WBs)

- tempo should not be high, but either normal or even lower, in order to give enough time to midfield players to arrive in support once the long ball (or cross) is launched to the TM

- pass into space as a TI is a mistake that many FM players are making. Instead, a better choice is to use a playmaker (either in MC or AMC position) with good passing and vision to provide killer balls behind the opposition defence when an opportunity presents itself

- float/mixed and early crosses are the self-explanatory TIs I guess

- ideal hoofball formations would be flat 4-4-2 and 5-3-2 WB, but you can also use 4-3-1-2, 4-3-2-1 DM Narrow or 5-2-1-2 WB to good effect

- team shape (in FM18) or fluidity (in FM19) should not be fluid, but either (very) structured or at least flexible

- TIs such as Roam from Positions and Be More Expressive should be avoided, as well as the PI "Roam from position", because the hoofball style is not about creativity and beauty but rather simplicity and directness :onmehead:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:DThanks @Mindtrick_42 @improvox

@Experienced Defender I think  the equivalent to a PF in 18 is the defensive forward but I'm not sure, as I've not used the defensive forward in FM18 :) I'd read somewhere that is more of a name change than big role change as defensive doesn't exist in 19 anymore.

38 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

. And I would just add that for a successful implementation of hoofball, these basic principles are key:

- a strong and tall TM as the focal point of your attacks

- ideally a two-striker partnership, or at least 2 AMCs behind the lone TM, one of which should perform SS role

- fullbacks (or wingbacks, depending on the formation) as the primary providers of crosses for the TM

- narrow(er) width, so that the TM is being supported by as many players as possible (width is already provided by FBs/WBs)

- tempo should not be high, but either normal or even lower, in order to give enough time to midfield players to arrive in support once the long ball (or cross) is launched to the TM

- pass into space as a TI is a mistake that many FM players are making. Instead, a better choice is to use a playmaker (either in MC or AMC position) with good passing and vision to provide killer balls behind the opposition defence when an opportunity presents itself

- float/mixed and early crosses are the self-explanatory TIs I guess

- ideal hoofball formations would be flat 4-4-2 and 5-3-2 WB, but you can also use 4-3-1-2, 4-3-2-1 DM Narrow or 5-2-1-2 WB to good effect

- team shape (in FM18) or fluidity (in FM19) should not be fluid, but either (very) structured or at least flexible

- TIs such as Roam from Positions and Be More Expressive should be avoided, as well as the PI "Roam from position", because the hoofball style is not about creativity and beauty but rather simplicity and directness :onmehead:

I agree with most of this. I think sticking to the above should result in a pretty solid hoofball. I think there's some potential for variation though that might change what sort of Hoofball you end up with those. Some of the articles in the first post I found really useful for seperating in my mind the difference between the hoofball of Taylors Watford, from Wimbledon, from Big Sam, and from Pulisball. I think some changes in the key principles can lead you more towards one than the other - which is really fun :D

There are 3 areas where I differ a bit currently.

  • My tempo is slightly higher as in FM19 (I don't know if its the same for 18 as I hadn't tried really) I'm struggling to get them to pass forward with any purpose/urgency if it is on low. I find slightly higher is giving me a good balance between taking the game to the opposition and being more selective with my passes. I think this might work better for two strikers rather than set ups with one and support from midfield as there's already some support relatively near then.
  • I'm finding pass into space is working for me but I can see that if I had somone decent enough to play as a DLP I could change this. I think removing pass into space and having a playmaker might work well for higher end hoofball but for the lower leagues pass into space might be a good fudge to get things done.
  • I've got Be More Expressive on for my main hoofball (but not for the direct counter version). Again it's working for me I think because it is allowing some of my players to take more speculative hoofs. To me, and I could be very wrong, Be More Expressive on a route one tactic feels like it should be renamed 'Stick it in the Mixer!' - Which is fine if you have the strikers who will work hard to get it or if you fancy your changes of soaking up the pressure from lost possession.

 

Also a key area I differ. I think hoofball is beautiful ;)

 

4 hours ago, Mindtrick_42 said:

@Peljam Really enjoying your posts. Keep up the good work! 

I'm gonna give the long ball tactic another go,  where I want to build a direct and strong team. Club DNA will most likely include bravery, determination, workrate and teamwork. 

Also, I want to play 442, and one of the most important players should be the targetman.

Now I just need to find a fun team to start with :)

Those are definitely the right attributes for me. I'd take a player with those over a more technically gifted but mentally weaker player. Workrate in the strikers is key. They need a good engine if they're going to be chasing down the ball all game.

3 hours ago, improvox said:

Keep up the good work. I'm inspired to create a long ball tactic after reading this.

My beta save is with livorno in serie B. I started with a narrow formation and it was doing OK but we weren't creating many chances. Then I tried to recreate my favourite tactic from fm18 (a 4231 with a regista) but its just not working although to be honest I probably haven't got the players for it. So I'm going to use livorno to develop a long ball tactic and then will use it when I start my first long term save. Which will be lower league either  France (US Créteil - if I can find a French lower league DB) or England. 

I did the same thing. My first two teams were long slogs that I used to find out what wasn't working for me. In each case (Scarborough and Grantham) it became clear that I didn't have the players either. So run Livorno into the ground!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Peljam said:

I think  the equivalent to a PF in 18 is the defensive forward but I'm not sure, as I've not used the defensive forward in FM18 :) I'd read somewhere that is more of a name change than big role change as defensive doesn't exist in 19 anymore.

I guess so, and that seems quite logical. The obvious difference is that the attack duty was not available for DF, while PF can have all 3 duties. 

20 minutes ago, Peljam said:

Also a key area I differ. I think hoofball is beautiful ;)

Actually, we agree on this one. I also think it's beautiful. But in this context the term "beautiful" was used to describe what most people regard as "beautiful football" (i.e. the way teams play under Pep, Sarri and similar managers). But I'd rather opt for the Tony Pulis Stoke's style :brock:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Actually, we agree on this one. I also think it's beautiful. But in this context the term "beautiful" was used to describe what most people regard as "beautiful football" (i.e. the way teams play under Pep, Sarri and similar managers). But I'd rather opt for the Tony Pulis Stoke's style :brock:

:cool: Grand. I think I'm loving playing hoofball more than I have any other tactic since about FM12.

Although it might be getting out of hand. I've just watched a mix of Rory Delap throws on youtube to help me set up my new throw in routine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Peljam said:

 

 

Playmakers tend to be the creative forces, or the conductors, in a team. I'm guessing your WB's might struggle to see a good pass if you've only got one up front so go short/sideways to the DLP instead. They take creative priority/control. When you had just DMs maybe the WB's were freer to take a punt on a long pass.

Yes , once my wbs have the ball always get tackled by 2 players . 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, z464 said:

Yes , once my wbs have the ball always get tackled by 2 players . 

 

 

Are they spending too much time on the ball? Maybe set them to dribble less often?

Or drop them back to full backs? I'd be tempted to do this. It should either give them more time and space to make the pass without being tackled...or if they are still getting closed down there should now be more space behind the other team on that wing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/10/2018 at 17:28, z464 said:

Yes , once my wbs have the ball always get tackled by 2 players . 

What are their respective ratings for the Off The Ball attribute? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Peljam said:

Are they spending too much time on the ball? Maybe set them to dribble less often?

Or drop them back to full backs? I'd be tempted to do this. It should either give them more time and space to make the pass without being tackled...or if they are still getting closed down there should now be more space behind the other team on that wing.

No, they get tackled immediately once they  received the ball from the 3 center backs .

I'm playing 3 center backs with dm position that I don't want to drop them back to full backs. 

I mean I can easily change my formation to 4411 or 4132 without any issue , but just want to try a 3 center backs counter tactic  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

What are their respective ratings for the Off The Ball attribute

I’m using Spurs , so you know my wbs are not terrible at all .  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, behold! The magic of hoofball!

I'm playing hoofball with Crusaders from Northern Ireland. It have worked wonders in Europe, where we've qualified for the Europa League group stages. Thank you away goals. Thank you hoofball.

254564690_Skrmbillede2018-10-26kl_21_17_05.thumb.png.b7bfa8c3c2611028dd934614546bcc5e.png

The setup is somewhat the same as Peljams. Only differences as far as I can tell, is that I'm not passing into space, and I haven't asked my players to be more expressive.

1628286320_Skrmbillede2018-10-26kl_21_21_55.thumb.png.cad3f3dc9a6a5ca3b28243c4854406de.png

In the league I've won 3 and lost 1 game so far. But most league games have been scheduled just 2 days after my European games, so I've had to field some weakened sides in the league so far. That won't change much, now that we're in the group stages, I reckon. Might have to play the reserves in Europe now, since I probably won't get many points in the group stages no matter what. But who knows what the magic of hoofball can lead to?

Edited by Sarl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, z464 said:

I’m using Spurs , so you know my wbs are not terrible at all .  

Then I suppose it's because they are the only wide players in your formation (5-4-1WB), so you are in most cases outnumbered by the opposition on the flanks, which in turn encourages them to go more aggressively on your WBs. The first (though not the only) thing you should consider is removing the "Pass Into Space" TI because your formation is pretty defensive (one of most defensive in the game) even though you play with a high mentality (control), so your WBs are the players that are naturally attracting most of those passes into space. And given that they are usually higher up the pitch due to the combination of the high team mentality and their own position and role, the space for them to operate within is likely reduced. Of course, I am just guessing, but you are the only one who can know if this (or something else) is the reason because you are watching your team's matches and so only you can identify where the problem lies. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...