Is this what I should expect in FM18 too??

[alex21px]

So I started a carrer with AC Milan, using a 4-3-1-2 with 2 wing backs, 1 DLP(D), 2 BWM(S), AM, CF(S) and AF. Mentality, shape and D-line where changed regarding the opponent and how the games played out. I also had a 4-1-3-2 in hand for the thougher matches. In the league, 26 games in, I had a wonderfull record of 21-2-3, I was leading the league by 12 points, the attack was effective and the defence was conceding on average less than half a goal per game.

Was I happy? Of course I was! My team was performing above expectations and the gameplay was incredible solid. I was also worried. Why? Because my team was performing above expectations and I've played enough FM to know what was going to happen next. An odd defeat at home to Pescara made all of my work useless. In a matter of 6-7 games I lost my advantage to Juventus and they are now sitting 2 points ahead of me. Will I displace them from 1st and claim the spot I held on to for most of the competition? No, because complacency doesn't work both ways, never did and it never will. I was extremely carefull on the transfer market, sending away dead weight and bringing in players with high determination and work rate (ended up with the highest attributes in the league in those attributes), so I could rely on them to win me games with sheer will power where sometimes tactical instructions don't work very well, and for those 26 matches, it worked. I got late winners and I hold on to several minimal leads. Once I started losing matches, all of that didn't matter. I follow some advice from the forums to play more cautious and tweak the tactic a bit to at least hold on to draws and them work my way through there, but it was useless, my defence was beeing sliced apart like butter, the midfield wasn't effective any more in transitions and my strikers were missing chances where they were putting them in before.

Can I really blame myself for this? No, at least not entirely. I could have done something wrong along the way but the fact that I was expecting something inevitably bad to happen says a lot. Did Monaco showed any loss of momentum when they won the league they were not the favorites to win? Lille and Montpellier before them? Dortmund as well, didn't they shove off Bayern for two seasons without showing any sigh of faltering? Leicester, did they fail to stay up despite performing hugely above expectations?

PS1 - Woodwork - I analysed all of my league matches so far and came up with this. I had 494 shots and hit the woodwork 24 times, at a rate of 1 hit per 20.5 shots. My opponents had 236 shots and hit the woodwork 3 times, at a rate of 1 hit per 78.6 shots. I hit the woodwork almost 4 times as often as my opposition. I am open to explanations, because I can find none.

PS2 - Just saw the new features about FM18. Time will tell if they are any helpfull or if it's just a couple more things to make the game even more complicated and bogged down as it is already (yes, I mean the social media feature). To me I find it hard to excited about them when there are more pressing issues to deal with, some of them already mentioned above.

PS3 - Serie A has finished. My team finally put up a convincing performance in the final fixture, too bad Juventus won the title the week before. My worst striker, who had a ratio of a goal every 480 minutes, I gave him a start just for giggles, and in the end, I giggled. The idiot scores a brace and I just can't help myself to ask if this game is actually making fun of me. FM at it's best/worst, i guess...

 

[Overmars]

How did your opponents score against you? Your 4-3-1-2 sounds like it leaves the wings very vulnerable to counterattacks. Were you using a control or attacking mentality too?

Losing the league to Juventus is not unbelievable. Use the collapse as motivation to win the league next season. Sounds like you have a good rivalry building against them.

[Svenc]

Based on your previous threads: yes, yes and yes. As soon as you go with AI bias as your reason, you don't stand a chance. You'll loop all the way up up until FM 2050, which is when the guys retire and leave harsh London for an island in the sun.

I think the game lacks some of the feedback in vital areas for you to dig any deeper into this. I also don't think the game will spoon feed solutions to causes though. A big influx of wood work hits is down to compressing play into the opposition final third typically, which leads to an increased amount of shots taken from guys in range under pressure, as they can't play a back pass anymore. Play getting a few compressed into one team's final third tends to happen itself if you play a lot of teams defending deep. It's what tends to happen in real football too -- the more attacking / proactive sides tend to have more wood works, the teams mostly sitting deep tend to concede the most. If you add to this by throwing all your players in front of the opposition box, it's typically a bit worse. However, as this isn't real football, the ball physics model in-game can also be to blame if stats are higher.

1 hour ago, Overmars said:

Losing the league to Juventus is not unbelievable. Use the collapse as motivation to win the league next season. Sounds like you have a good rivalry building against them.

Yeah that too. Unless this uses a Chinese Takeover transfer update, the first seasons in terms of squad quality isn't even a contest. Even if Juventus have ****** games, they will still win the points simply due to inherently ten times superior player quality (additionally dribbles, additionally won headers, tackles, key passes, etc. etc.) And as they are managed by AI, that can happen a few.

[alex21px]

Don't mind losing 1St place to Juventus, 2nd place is brilliant and it means I beat three teams of equal quality (inter, Roma or napoli) to it, but I just can't accept these inevitable slumps of form, I was 12 points ahead! When Juventus won the title I played two more games. Udinese away and napoli in the cup final. Both matches won 3-1 with the team playing the football I was seeing them play most of the season. I mean, what the hell? Now that there is nothing else to play for my team switches to 'winning mode' again?

[Cougar2010]

12 minutes ago, alex21px said:

Don't mind losing 1St place to Juventus, 2nd place is brilliant and it means I beat three teams of equal quality (inter, Roma or napoli) to it, but I just can't accept these inevitable slumps of form, I was 12 points ahead! When Juventus won the title I played two more games. Udinese away and napoli in the cup final. Both matches won 3-1 with the team playing the football I was seeing them play most of the season. I mean, what the hell? Now that there is nothing else to play for my team switches to 'winning mode' again?

All teams IRL suffer good & bad spells of form every year.

Part of a managers job is to extend the good spells of form and minimise the poor spells.

What also hasn't been mentioned is that your poor run came at the end of the season which can be a sign that several of your players don't handle pressure very well and perform poorly in these matches.

[herne79]

13 hours ago, alex21px said:

Can I really blame myself for this? No, at least not entirely. I could have done something wrong along the way but the fact that I was expecting something inevitably bad to happen says a lot. Did Monaco showed any loss of momentum when they won the league they were not the favorites to win? Lille and Montpellier before them? Dortmund as well, didn't they shove off Bayern for two seasons without showing any sigh of faltering? Leicester, did they fail to stay up despite performing hugely above expectations?

 

33 minutes ago, alex21px said:

but I just can't accept these inevitable slumps of form, I was 12 points ahead!

Can Newcastle blame themselves for letting a 12 point lead slip and so lost the Premier League title?  Pretty sure Keegan didn't like it.  If you dig up real life examples of things that supposedly support your point of view, equally there are others that don't.

As cougar says above, it's the Manager's job to minimise poor spells.  Yes you tried some tactical tweaking, but if that didn't seem to work the answer is not to just blame the game.  The answer is to try something different.

[alex21px]

15 hours ago, Overmars said:

How did your opponents score against you? Your 4-3-1-2 sounds like it leaves the wings very vulnerable to counterattacks. Were you using a control or attacking mentality too?

Actually is not that vulnerable on the wings. I conceded almost as much  from the middle of the park as from attacks down my wings. I switch the wingbacks roles and duties to suit the opponents formation. They play on WB(S) if the opponent has 2 men on each flank, FB(S) if those 2 men are dangerous and CWB(S) if my wingbacks are facing only one man of inferior quality on the flank. If they go up the pitch, the BWM(S) will have their backs. I played most of the season on counter/standard/control, only switching to attack when chasing a result.

15 hours ago, Overmars said:

Losing the league to Juventus is not unbelievable. Use the collapse as motivation to win the league next season. Sounds like you have a good rivalry building against them.

I wish there were some improvements on the end of season team talk. It has beem stuck on the same stuff for years. All I could say was for them to have a rest and come back stronger to challenge for the league next year, when I actually wanted so throw shoes and tomatoes at them for beeing so irresponsable and blowing a huge lead.

14 hours ago, Svenc said:

I think the game lacks some of the feedback in vital areas for you to dig any deeper into this. I also don't think the game will spoon feed solutions to causes though.

It's nearly 2018. FM needs tutorials. Not to spoonfeed people into giving them some magic formula but to teach them the diference between A and B and how that applies in a gameplan. Most people learn the basics on FM in the web, I know I did.

6 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

What also hasn't been mentioned is that your poor run came at the end of the season which can be a sign that several of your players don't handle pressure very well and perform poorly in these matches.

As far as I know, thats highly unlikely. In my first season that just finished I sold almost everyone I could with negative media handling style/balanced personality/determination below 14. Never played Deulofeu, Zapata, Vangioni and barely played Bertolacci, Montolivo and Paletta. Sold them all and Bacca and Suso too for funds. In exchange got highly determined and experienced players for defense, midfield and attack. So if their Pressure atribute is low, I can't actually tell to be honest, but I don't reccon it's low.

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Can Newcastle blame themselves for letting a 12 point lead slip and so lost the Premier League title?  Pretty sure Keegan didn't like it.

Allright, point taken. Thank you.

 

 

[Spurs08]

19 hours ago, alex21px said:

PS1 - Woodwork - I analysed all of my league matches so far and came up with this. I had 494 shots and hit the woodwork 24 times, at a rate of 1 hit per 20.5 shots. My opponents had 236 shots and hit the woodwork 3 times, at a rate of 1 hit per 78.6 shots. I hit the woodwork almost 4 times as often as my opposition. I am open to explanations, because I can find none.

You're a top team, which means the opposition is going to play conservatively against you. They aren't going to take a pot shot from 20 yards, they're going to be patient, try to frustrate you and generally only shoot when there's a clear opportunity. Meanwhile, you're likely to be on top most of the time, but will often face packed defences. That means the opposition are more likely to hit the target when they do shoot, whereas you'll have more shots but they're a lot more likely to miss - albeit narrowly or hitting the woodwork due to your players' superior technical skills. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

In my last save on FM17, I managed for the first time ever to go through a whole season unbeaten with Hacken of Sweden.  Therefore, the rubberbanding you're indirectly referring to simply doesn't exist. 

[Cap'nRad]

Having gone through several of these slumps with different teams/ players, I am curious what their origin is. So far there has only been a few speculations like teams being more defensive (which shouldn't affect CCC conversion) and players' poor pressure handling (which doesn't apply to all the teams). Wondering if there's some sort of official explanation/ solution for this seemingly common phenomenon? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cap'nRad said:

Having gone through several of these slumps with different teams/ players, I am curious what their origin is. So far there has only been a few speculations like teams being more defensive (which shouldn't affect CCC conversion) and players' poor pressure handling (which doesn't apply to all the teams). Wondering if there's some sort of official explanation/ solution for this seemingly common phenomenon? 

 

I have had two of them, really bad ones, near the end of the season - at the point where I have maybe six to eight matches left to play.

 

The problem I have is that I don't seem to be able to pinpoint the problem in any way. There is no feedback that would allow me to analyze. Does morale drop? Yes, a little, but only after the slump has been noticeably going on for three matches (which is perfectly reasonable). Do I get any feedback that my players are stressed? No. If anything, I appear to have a group of players that seems to relish big matches and performs quite consistently - although of course not every individual player boasts both of these attributes.

 

Is there any media feedback around this, something I could comment upon? No, the media doesn't notice it at all.

 

Do my players display more nervosity during these matches? No, mostly they appear "professional" and "listen keenly" to what I say. If there are any responses to my pre-match and half-time talks, they are more green (good) than red (bad).

 

So, it's a bit difficult to say what's going on and why.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, xzar_monty said:

Do I get any feedback that my players are stressed? No.

Did you look though? The assistant manager's feedback could be very useful. Although, If they appear to have the same body language during a match, it's probably not that, but: There's more pressure in those final few games compared to the rest of the season.

[Svenc]

The assistant manager feedback would be there indeed. As for generally understanding slumps and streaks in football, whilst FM isn't fully as "random" as real football imo, these are a must-read for anybody (which are also areas the game is lacking in... making it easier to judge what point drops might have been just and which a bit of rotten luck and to which extents). Dortmund finished that season in 7th place, being dead last by January.

http://www.espnfc.com/blog/tactics-and-analysis/67/post/2271195/borussia-dortmund-will-rebound-after-poor-bundesliga-season-so-far-writes-michael-caley
https://statsbomb.com/2014/12/borussia-dortmund-whats-gone-wrong/

 

 

Somewhat connected to this @Cap'nRad what in-game either way changes if a side would shut up shop in-game is the nature of your (hopefully) quality chances. Whereas previously you may be allowed an easy tap-in off a break / easy through ball behind a team pushed up in numbers, the best you may get are one on ones with the forward surrounded by an army of defenders, immediately closed down and pressured to do something. FM statistically anyway, has treated those all completely equal when from playing experience, longer term, they just aren't. However, even decent quality chances may not be converted... the forward is almost always expected to bottle it, in football anyways. If you toss a coin, which is a fifty fifty chance that does favor neither forward nor keeper, you will still get a few interesting streaks. Subconciously, in real football anyway, we appreciate all of that. It is the core reason why we tune in, that uncertainty of knowing who will win this, even in comically unbalanced match-ups. In-game, that can be quite frustrating, however.

[westy8chimp]

On ‎01‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 21:21, alex21px said:

Because my team was performing above expectations and I've played enough FM to know what was going to happen next

I won the league with Sassuolo in one of the FM community challenges ... we were only allowed to sign 2 players and were given a fixed tactic to use.

1) it's definitely down to you (this isn't a harsh criticism but deduction) ... if other people can win leagues, and you must have done in the past, there is no "happen next lose the league inevitability"

2) what is making you lose? too much tactical tweaking? too many new signings? Not keeping an eye on player body language or morale? Not adjusting formation/style in accord with your league standing (and how the AI perceive you differently at different points of the season)?

Could be a hundred reasons - and it isn't always obvious. The collapse doesn't always happen... not every FM player always comes 2nd in a league race.. so there are triggers to look out for that you need to act quickly to not lose a game... when you do lose act quickly to make sure it doesn't become a losing streak.

 

[westy8chimp]

On ‎02‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 01:50, Overmars said:

Use the collapse as motivation to win the league next season.

Quite.

And use it as a learning opportunity - change your approach a little each time until you learn to avoid the collapse.

One thing I've done, or rather refused to carry on doing (and it's most likely just a superstitious act)  is when you get an item in inbox, towards the end of the season with the title in reach, saying something along the lines of "do you wish to address the squad about their chances of sealing the title or speak to the captain about the feel of the dressing room?".

I now completely ignore it because it always used to go tits up and then I would lose the subsequent match.

[alex21px]

On 02/10/2017 at 21:59, Dagenham_Dave said:

Therefore, the rubberbanding you're indirectly referring to simply doesn't exist. 

Ok then, another example, this one a bit more fresh.

This is SPAL 2013's calendary so far. They have been promoted to the Serie A and with 12 games in they look like they are not going to last. Other relegation-bound teams like Spezia and Pescara managed to put 6 and 5 goals past them and they are naturally sitting in the bottom of the league with a 0-0-12 score and a 8-44 goal stat. They only managed to keep one team from scoring more than a goal against them. Mine, of course... But not without its fair share of FM's peculiarities.

58 minutes played with a man down, they finally succumbed and conceded a penalty, wich I was absolutelly sure my player would miss it, but Hey!, the FM gods smilled at me for once. One of my biggest issues with FM is that defensive formations from the AI are severelly overpowered. All they have to do is sit back, increase the numbers there and watch as their opponent try to breach their walls with no avail. And they do it with during 90 minutes flawlessly. With very few mistakes . No matter if they are any good or not. Stuff like this is what makes me believe that I can't be faulted that certain things happen in the game (and they happen in a greater number than it's considered normal or realistic), every season, carrer or FM edition. Reducing it to bad luck or 'It's your tactics mate' won't do it for me anymore. 

I'm not looking for sympaty here, and I know I'm going to get thrashed by some fellow user for my opinion, but it's only that, a opinion. Not a rant. I'm done ranting about FM.

[XaW]

Without seeing the detailed stats I can see that very few of your shots are on target. I can also see that SPAL are playing very defensively against you. They have 3 central defenders, wingbacks and 3 midfielders who are most likely holding back at all times. Seeing as they got a rather early red card they would likely go even further defensive with that. These things lead me to believe that you are struggling to cope with teams trying to defend in points. SPAL know they are vastly inferior compared to your team and will likely settle for a draw if they are able. Since you have so few shots on goal, I would assume a good amount of them are long shots. This happens because you are unable to break them down. Had you gotten an early goal then SPAL would have had to go a bit more offensively, at least towards the latter part of the match, in order to try to get something from the match. 

Seeing that you play a rather narrow formation, I'm guessing that your strikers and attacking midfielder are getting caught in a massive bulk of players around the box, unable to create space for themselves. The wingbacks on SPAL would also not have many issues tracking players out wide, since you only have your full backs providing width.

Now, how do one counter such matches? Well, I would look at the detailed stats to see where your shots are coming from and how takes them. If it's usually your 3 central midfielders and the shots are from outside the box, then I would ask them to shoot less. You might have success if your strikers were to roam a bit, or move into channels. Just in order to create a bit of hassle in the defense. I'm not tactical genius, but those are a couple of things I would try against opponents playing so defensively as SPAL are.

Oh, and in case you are wondering why other relegation candidates are putting 5 or 6 goals against SPAL? That's because SPAL are playing more attacking against them, since they feel they have the best chance for a win against those teams. Evidently SPAL are not cut for Serie A, but they are trying to attack when they are facing other teams around their level. Against you and the other top rated teams they are trying to get a lucky draw.

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, alex21px said:

 

 Reducing it to bad luck or 'It's your tactics mate' won't do it for me anymore. 

 

Since you never show any of yours, you will be put under question exactly for that.

Same for whether you are actually following football to the level you claim you would.

You can only draw comparisons if you follow bits of football, actually, for realz. And yes, there are many areas where the game isn't quite football.

If you struggle to put goals past SPAL with much superior players, regularly, you are not very good at playing this. Fact. Unfortunately, you generally don't need to be very good to win anything on this game, which is both a weakness, a strength, and to a degree a representation of what a manager has to deal with in real football. A team could win totally without anything of his contributing, he could get things wrong a fair amount of times. The team could even play quite shoddy football, and luck out in 8 times out of 10, as long as he's winning, he will be heralded as the second coming. However, as soon as he loses matches and drops points left and right, he will come under scrutiny, even if he did all he could. You now have the option to admit this to yourself and actually start enquiring a few of the better guy. Or hope that SI will add a few more feedback, advice and adjust some of the game flaws that may influence things. As they influence every team in the league, they would all suffer from the same issues though. Go with your AI bias route, nobody cares. You should. You'll remain a player who's not very good at this.

If SI would wanted to make this as harsh as football, they could. If SI wanted to make it hard to score on this, they could. The reason they're not doing this is that kids these days can't accept the tiniest point drop against a run of play, when there is evidence that in real football the influence of "bad luck" same as its opposite, can last half a season, or longer. The aforementioned and linked to Dortmund season even if you reload a thousand times and is physically impossible to recreate on FM. I'm not at all convinced that was simply bad luck, see also @XaW The AI actually needs loads of improvements. I will stress this: loads of improvements.If you actually follow football as much as you claim, you may know that in football, teams may line up differently, sometimes from match to match. Surely the first thing to do is taking a look at what the other AI managers did when they played SPAL?

[reo hustler]

It has happened in real life and is simulated well in the game. That's what the majority of us want(a simulation), not an easy arcade game.

11 hours ago, Svenc said:

 

 

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

On 08/10/2017 at 15:50, alex21px said:

. One of my biggest issues with FM is that defensive formations from the AI are severelly overpowered. All they have to do is sit back, increase the numbers there and watch as their opponent try to breach their walls with no avail.

And here's where your entire argument falls to pieces. If that really was the case, how come in your example, other AI teams were able to smash five and six goals past that 'overpowered' SPAL defence?  You can keep your head in the sand all you want, but until you realise it's down to you, you'll never get any better. 

[Guest El Payaso]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And here's where your entire argument falls to pieces. If that really was the case, how come in your example, other AI teams were able to smash five and six goals past that 'overpowered' SPAL defence?  You can keep your head in the sand all you want, but until you realise it's down to you, you'll never get any better. 

If I was paranoid in terms of FM I would rather claim the game having bias towards human users what comes to tactics. I've seen human users beating the AI and overachieving with such stupid tactical solutions that I've at times thought about how the AI possibly can do worse than that. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, El Payaso said:

If I was paranoid in terms of FM I would rather claim the game having bias towards human users what comes to tactics. I've seen human users beating the AI and overachieving with such stupid tactical solutions that I've at times thought about how the AI possibly can do worse than that. 

The game will always have 'bias' towards the human user for as long tactics can be created that the AI simply can't cope with. And yet there's people who want to have even more freedom to create their AI-bursting tactics. Must be an almost impossible job for the coders to make AI tactics robust enough to cope with every possible combination. Don't envy that job. 

[Miravlix]

If you give some of us a team like Tottenham, you can create a save where you for the next 10+ years will win the league and Champions Cup every single year, something that has never ever happened in real life. If you give us worse teams than that we need a season or two to break the game and end up with Penguins of the North Pole as world champions, Champions Cup winner. (Would be amazing as the penguins is from the South)

Problem is I can't explain to you what to do to be this good at the game, I think it's mostly down to you getting lucky and holding the right team talk, to allow for unprecedented winning streaks. It's not because I'm some amazing tacticians or whatever, the game has virtually no real game play element beyond luck.

[alex21px]

On 08/10/2017 at 17:24, Svenc said:

If you struggle to put goals past SPAL with much superior players, regularly, you are not very good at playing this.

You are absolutelly right mate. Totally spot on.

They played me away now, here's a summary of what happened

- 8 minutes in, one of my strikers smashes a open goal chance in the post, one of my midfielders picks up the ball and in a good position to make it count, smashes it to the moon. At this point I already KNOW how the game is going to turn out. Pretty weird how I know this, only having my past experiences to recall to... But what do I know? I don't know how to play this...

- 20 minutes in they score from a direct free kick, their first one in the season. Also my bad...

- 42 minutes in. Penalty for them. Wrongly awarded by the way (the referee had a score of 3.0 and the federation kept their silence after my complaints). But it's probably down to my tactics or whatnot...

- 61 minutes and they score their 3rd. Ok, no sarcasm now, that is on me, I increased the risk to try to score and they did me on a counter. That's normal.

- 92 minutes and on a last ditch effort to try to equalize, I hit the post again and the game's finished.

Full time and SPAL get their first league win in the season, having a grand total of 6 points in 26 games. You would've think that with a performance like that they would be title contenders, but no, they are just the league's punching bag (80 goals conceded in 26 games).

Adding insult to injury, 2 weeks ago Juventus put 7-1 past SPAL (they used the same 'defensive' strategy), and I put 6-2 past Juventus just 4 days ago for the TIM Cup. I can only laugh at this really . Lets all bring out the best excuses for situations like this, while we sweep the REAL reasons under the rug. As long as SI doesn't put a end to this bull****, or at least make it a rare ocurrence (as I should be!), I can't bring myself to get another FM title. I play FM so I can have fun and for the fantasy it brings to the little manager in me, not to be stressed out things like this.

 

On 11/10/2017 at 20:46, Dagenham_Dave said:

And here's where your entire argument falls to pieces. If that really was the case, how come in your example, other AI teams were able to smash five and six goals past that 'overpowered' SPAL defence?

And here's where your argument crumbles too. The AI teams were playing themselves, not me... 

 

 

 

[bowieinspace]

2 hours ago, alex21px said:

You are absolutelly right mate. Totally spot on.

They played me away now, here's a summary of what happened

- 8 minutes in, one of my strikers smashes a open goal chance in the post, one of my midfielders picks up the ball and in a good position to make it count, smashes it to the moon. At this point I already KNOW how the game is going to turn out. Pretty weird how I know this, only having my past experiences to recall to... But what do I know? I don't know how to play this...

- 20 minutes in they score from a direct free kick, their first one in the season. Also my bad...

- 42 minutes in. Penalty for them. Wrongly awarded by the way (the referee had a score of 3.0 and the federation kept their silence after my complaints). But it's probably down to my tactics or whatnot...

- 61 minutes and they score their 3rd. Ok, no sarcasm now, that is on me, I increased the risk to try to score and they did me on a counter. That's normal.

- 92 minutes and on a last ditch effort to try to equalize, I hit the post again and the game's finished.

Full time and SPAL get their first league win in the season, having a grand total of 6 points in 26 games. You would've think that with a performance like that they would be title contenders, but no, they are just the league's punching bag (80 goals conceded in 26 games).

Adding insult to injury, 2 weeks ago Juventus put 7-1 past SPAL (they used the same 'defensive' strategy), and I put 6-2 past Juventus just 4 days ago for the TIM Cup. I can only laugh at this really . Lets all bring out the best excuses for situations like this, while we sweep the REAL reasons under the rug. As long as SI doesn't put a end to this bull****, or at least make it a rare ocurrence (as I should be!), I can't bring myself to get another FM title. I play FM so I can have fun and for the fantasy it brings to the little manager in me, not to be stressed out things like this.

 

And here's where your argument crumbles too. The AI teams were playing themselves, not me... 

 

 

 

You struggled against them before, then used the same formation/set up and struggled again? Who would have thought it. 
 

[alex21px]

23 minutes ago, bowieinspace said:

You struggled against them before, then used the same formation/set up and struggled again? Who would have thought it. 
 

Ever heard of shouts? Mentality/shape/roles/duties? Just because I used the same formation (why should I change it anyway?) doesn't mean I approached both games the same way. Even SPAL used diferentes formations in each games. My tactical knowledge is not my issue, beeing it good or bad. I invite you to read my posts again. 

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, alex21px said:

You are absolutelly right mate. Totally spot on.

 

 

Alternative solution then, you would need a bit of an explanation about how football works;  and may be a bit of a sore loser who whines at every drop against a run of play. Given your generally success, yup, you seem just that kind of manager. Don't worry, you're not alone. You actually have shining examples all over the football place.

Quote

In soccer, the rate at which shots are scored is massively variable. A club might win 1-0 on a perfect long-distance strike one week and then lose 2-1 the next while firing a dozen shots from good positions right into the keeper's chest.

Art imitating life and all that.  https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/video/worst-excuses-losing-football-112458801.html And FM isn't really close to football in terms of how random this can be (sadly).

[alex21px]

Wow. This must be the reason why people won't bother expressing and elaborate negative opinions on FM/SI, just to be shot down like this. Sore loser? Maybe a bit, yeah. Whiny? Absolutely not. Am I not alone into thinking there's severe issues with Fm17 in particular? Definitely! Thousands of us! I don't mind losing games, that has to be perfectly clear. Teams lose games. But examples like both SPAL matches happened far too often. 

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, alex21px said:

Wow. This must be the reason why people won't bother expressing and elaborate negative opinions on FM/SI, just to be shot down like this. Sore loser? Maybe a bit, yeah. Whiny? Absolutely not. Am I not alone into thinking there's severe issues with Fm17 in particular? Definitely! Thousands of us! I don't mind losing games, that has to be perfectly clear. Teams lose games. But examples like both SPAL matches happened far too often. 

I think there's issues too. Plenty. I just don't think this is what you continue to suggest it is in all of your threads.  From anything seen, you will be back for 2018, 2019, 2020 with the same things, as so far you've shown nothing that a fix would solve. You don't seem the victim of one of the supposedly "super tactics" shared on the Steam Workshops, which can report back with matches where your side spams 50/60 bad shots for at best one goal, as those tactics are structurally unsound (those 60 shots still shouldn't be possible, no matter how bad they are). Statistically the first SPAL result seems even "just". The long-term expectation is 1 goal in 10 shots, and 1 for every 4th on target. If you consistently fail to create more --> tactical forum, totally.

Most players here are familiar with these "happens far too often" posts, including what's been suggested in terms of AI. This isn't dismissed because of some kind of white-washing. It's dismissed as it typically distracts from the issues the game has, of which there are many. Like, actually real ones. If you think there is something you are best bet to report your save to SI. They know their data though, well hopefully, as else they wouldn't make a football sim, but a fantasy. The game isn't near as random as football, as in football teams struggle to win despite creating better chances over weeks, or months on the occasion, including Juve in their 2015/2016 season. That's not up for debate. That's what happens in football everywhere. The EPL has a team in Burnley which conceded 150 shots over the first 7 matches, for a combined total of 5 goals conceded. Which means that in the first two months of the season, their opposition needed an average of 30 attempts to score a goal against them. Palace are every FM'ers worst nightmare, with a total of 80 attempts in the same time, but not a single goal to show for it. Cologne in the Bundesliga are similar. Similar analytics suggest Real could have been top of the tables in La Liga rather than in a "crisis", if only they had taken their chances, in matches such as this --- this---- or this. If you regularly drop points against such sides, it is either perception bias or it is because you struggle to break the deadlock too often. How do teams do that in football, by the way? Creating the same threads suggesting the same things won't see a fix, either way. You'll be back in time for FM 2018, believe me.
 

 

[bowieinspace]

3 hours ago, alex21px said:

Ever heard of shouts? Mentality/shape/roles/duties? Just because I used the same formation (why should I change it anyway?) doesn't mean I approached both games the same way. Even SPAL used diferentes formations in each games. My tactical knowledge is not my issue, beeing it good or bad. I invite you to read my posts again. 

 Sven's last post sums it up pretty well, nothing more to add.

[XaW]

3 hours ago, alex21px said:

Wow. This must be the reason why people won't bother expressing and elaborate negative opinions on FM/SI, just to be shot down like this. Sore loser? Maybe a bit, yeah. Whiny? Absolutely not. Am I not alone into thinking there's severe issues with Fm17 in particular? Definitely! Thousands of us! I don't mind losing games, that has to be perfectly clear. Teams lose games. But examples like both SPAL matches happened far too often. 

Since you haven't acknowledged it at all, have you read my post from earlier? You know, the rational one trying to explain possible issues you are having against smaller teams and how it might be improved on your end?

Most people on this board have no issues with criticism against the game. As long as you are not spouting tinfoil theories or are bashing the game, most people in here are going to try to help you sort out your issue. I tried to give a couple of suggestions as to how to approach games against team you thing will try to defend their way to a point.

6 hours ago, alex21px said:

Adding insult to injury, 2 weeks ago Juventus put 7-1 past SPAL (they used the same 'defensive' strategy), and I put 6-2 past Juventus just 4 days ago for the TIM Cup. I can only laugh at this really . Lets all bring out the best excuses for situations like this, while we sweep the REAL reasons under the rug. As long as SI doesn't put a end to this bull****, or at least make it a rare ocurrence (as I should be!), I can't bring myself to get another FM title. I play FM so I can have fun and for the fantasy it brings to the little manager in me, not to be stressed out things like this. And here's where your argument crumbles too. The AI teams were playing themselves, not me... 

Since I cannot see how things are going in your universe I will give my best guess as to how and/or why this is happening again. Juventus smashed SPAL because they are using different team and player instructions. The were most likely playing it slow and then maybe got an early goal. This causes SPAL to become more attacking to get something from the game. This again give Juventus the space they want to run away with the game. In your game against Juventus they are NOT playing as defensive as SPAL are and then your players get to play as you want them and they show their strengths as you win a big win.

I don't see any issues with this. Take a look at Liverpool in real life. They are struggling to beat the smaller teams, but are bullying the bigger teams (except Man City, but you know). Jurgen Klopp are doing the same thing as you, and the opponents are doing the same both ingame and in real life. Can your players break through and score even though your tactics are failing? Of course, the better the players (compared to the opponent) the better they will play never mind the tactic. If the players are good enough they will manage to win against horrible teams no matter the tactics (Here I'm talking about Barcelona vs San Marino style difference). In short, your tactic might seem to work, but does it work because of the tactical instructions or despite your instructions?

If you are winning against the big teams, but struggling against the poorer ones then I think your tactic is trying to exploit space that are not available against defensive teams. I had the same issues with my Liverpool side in a game, and a single new player role was all that it took for me to run over the poorer teams. I could not play it against the better teams though as the tactic would leave me with too poor defensive coverage if they attacked me. So I had two different starting tactics and were swapping the single role depending on the situation.

Look at that image. I played at home to Sunderland with this tactic. I thought they would stay back and try to get something on a counter. They won't attack me. Now, here I get lucky and score two early goals, but that's when I change up my tactic to the one I used against bigger teams. A bit more safety at the back and let Sunderland have the ball. In the end they had the ball more than me, but hardly created chances.

Here is another game. This time against Crystal Palace. They were also doing the same, but I couldn't break through. How did I fix it? I swapped out a couple of players early in the second half. I felt we were doing enough to win the game, but a couple of players had a poor game and didn't do as well as I had hoped. The players who entered did well, Ings scored and Wijnaldum had an assist on the first goal.

Do I succeed every time? Of course not, I err like everyone else. As you can see we dominated Middlesbrough, but they defended like their lives depended on it. Here I didn't change the players I should have. I wanted to keep Coutinho on the pitch since I felt he had the creativity to create the one chance we needed. Did he? Nope, he finished with a poor 6.1 score. He had a marking he couldn't shake. Could a player change fix it? Maybe, I don't know, but I would try it if I could play the game again.

This is the role we take in this game. Try to figure out how and what we are going to do when things are not working. It's very easy to be a manager when you are winning. It's when you are losing the skill of a manager shows. Keep what is working and change what is not. Keep your tactic against the top teams, as it is clearly working. Try other things against the more defensive teams. Maybe slow it down, or change some roles so your players are doing a better job of breaking them down.

If you are ignoring this post as well as the last then you are only looking to bash the game and trying to project your own shortcomings onto the game. If so, then I don't have anything else to say. If you instead want to try to learn how to do better then I'll try to help you.

[Dagenham_Dave]

7 hours ago, alex21px said:

And here's where your argument crumbles too. The AI teams were playing themselves, not me... 

 

Not really, in fact it only reinforces this viewpoint. 

Let's look at the evidence. 

1 - The game doesn't distinguish between the AI and the human user. This is fact, and has been confirmed time and time again

2 - The AI managed teams seem to have no trouble knocking multiple goals past the SPAL defence

3 - The human managed team (ie, you) DOES struggle to score against them. 

Now, you don't exactly need to be Sherlock Holmes to work out who is at fault here. 

[alex21px]

9 hours ago, XaW said:

Since you haven't acknowledged it at all, have you read my post from earlier?

Yes mate. Both of them. And I'm grateful for the help. I really am. But as I said again and again, my problem is not my tactical knowledge of the fact that I lose such games. On my first season I got a even more embarassing defeat at home (Pescara 0-3) and I only got myself to blame for it. Didn't score early, put on more risk in mentality and got hit on the counter 3 times. That's it! End of history, next game please. But I can not have it when the game throws this

16 hours ago, alex21px said:

- 8 minutes in, one of my strikers smashes a open goal chance in the post, one of my midfielders picks up the ball and in a good position to make it count, smashes it to the moon. At this point I already KNOW how the game is going to turn out. 

- 20 minutes in they score from a direct free kick, their first one in the season. 

- 42 minutes in. Penalty for them. Wrongly awarded by the way (the referee had a score of 3.0 and the federation kept their silence after my complaints). 

- 92 minutes and on a last ditch effort to try to equalize, I hit the post again and the game's finished.

kind of situations (and a lot more) at me consistently when I try to break down such formations, making the difficult impossible. If the roles were reversed, would this happen to the AI? Sure, but only at the same rarity you would expect in real life. So, as for the claims that the match engine doesn't distinguish me from the AI, I don't believe it for a bit, and I got my reasons for it. If I'm alone into thinking like that, so be it. That's my issue with the game. My ONLY issue.

I'll keep playing for now, because I'm a idiot and I love this game. I promise I'll keep myself from posting about this problem again, since it escalated to some rudeness from some users and also from my part, and that's not why I'm here for. 

[XaW]

41 minutes ago, alex21px said:

Yes mate. Both of them. And I'm grateful for the help. I really am. But as I said again and again, my problem is not my tactical knowledge of the fact that I lose such games. On my first season I got a even more embarassing defeat at home (Pescara 0-3) and I only got myself to blame for it. Didn't score early, put on more risk in mentality and got hit on the counter 3 times. That's it! End of history, next game please. But I can not have it when the game throws this

kind of situations (and a lot more) at me consistently when I try to break down such formations, making the difficult impossible. If the roles were reversed, would this happen to the AI? Sure, but only at the same rarity you would expect in real life. So, as for the claims that the match engine doesn't distinguish me from the AI, I don't believe it for a bit, and I got my reasons for it. If I'm alone into thinking like that, so be it. That's my issue with the game. My ONLY issue.

I'll keep playing for now, because I'm a idiot and I love this game. I promise I'll keep myself from posting about this problem again, since it escalated to some rudeness from some users and also from my part, and that's not why I'm here for. 

Fair enough, your choice of thinking is something for you alone. It have, however, been stated by SI that the ME does not distinguish between AI and human players. I only commented on the issues you have stated here and how to counter it should you want or need it.

For what it's worth I had a horrible time last night as I lost the title by 1 points after losing 3 of my last 5 games. 

As you can guess I wasn't very happy with this either, but I still realize the game isn't "scripting" or otherwise "know" how to screw me. I'm now trying to find out how this happened and how I can counter it for next season.

That was the deciding game though. A loss at home, an own goal even when we dominated the game. As you can see I also have these issues sometimes, so I guess I'm an idiot who loves this game as well!

[Svenc]

There is one point  worth debating. It is whether it is too "easy" to "park the bus" and make a side struggling to find space and score. That's subjective, and it's a viable discussion though. That's engine inherent, as you can easily do the same, though. Nothing to do with AI whatsoever in the slightest. Heck, users with barely any posts do this. But then they actually seem to experiment a bit, and enquire in the tactical forums about it. Plus additionally, it is telling the player quality doesn't even seem to be in doubt. Last time I checked, Milan weren't quite onpar with Juve quite yet at all. In fact, they've been struggling for years to make it anywhere close to the top spots. Personally I'd always fighted threads such as this, as it spreads wrong ideas how the game works, keeps players from getting better, which means SI are reluctant to improve AI, which in particular at the top should be far more intelligent. I.e. "bloody" AI Guardiola on FM 2016 oft struggling to score more than 50 goals with Bayern in the Bundesliga and losing up to 8 domestic matches with one of the most dominating squads in any league in-game -- any newbie immediately could have done better. (See also @El Payaso's quote of the century in this thread, I've printed it out and framed it on my wall.

 

 

2 hours ago, alex21px said:

If the roles were reversed, would this happen to the AI? Sure, but only at the same rarity you would expect in real life. So, as for the claims that the match engine doesn't distinguish me from the AI, I don't believe it for a bit, and I got my reasons for it. If I'm alone into thinking like that, so be it. That's my issue with the game. My ONLY issue.

 

Yup, indeed you are not alone. Actually, this has been going on since the dawn of FM. Hence the reaction to this, as better players know this better. If there is anything such, it must be poor, as it is easy to outperform AI ( more so in older releases).  History has always repeated itself.

You'll be back. And nothing will fix this for you, nor for any of the other victims of "perception bias", victims of structurally unsound "super tactics" dominating any major FM fansite, "sore losers" who can't accept matches against a run of play when that regularly happens to the best of teams in football -- and those who simply aren't that great at playing this. Perception bias is actually the most common "cause" of things, as lots of players outconvert AI managers without even realizing. If anything, future releases may make it worse, as AI tactics are being improved and need improving. To quote one of the former tactical mods:

Quote

f the AI ever gets close to mimicking the tactical concepts that we take for granted, then all hell will break loose as user after user struggles to deal with a properly competitive AI manager.

The only major issue the game here has is that it is far too easy to dominate the far too simplistic stats the game has to kingdom come without creating space and any decent chances -- even with poor teams away to Barcelona. It's a long-term engine issue though too. And it relates to AI managers too, who aren't all that. E.g.



 

[alex21px]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

There is one point  worth debating. It is whether it is too "easy" to "park the bus" and make a side struggling to find space and score.

Not the main point of my opinion, but yes, it is worth debating that. However the AI can park the bus effectively without resorting to such extreme measures.  As for the rest of the post, I'll say for the last time, my issue is not tactical, whether I dominate a side or not or if I can accept a defeat or not (I do, except when the most of the stuff listed above happen regularly, often in the same match). Look, our opinions are going to stand no matter what, so instead of going in circles and eventually bore each other with our arguments let's just bury this issue between us.

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

You'll be back.

No, I won't. You can count on it. I said what I had to say about my issue and let my opinion be read. Take care