Regional divisions

[massa88]

Hi, my question is about some advanced system to handle geographical divisions.

For example, I like to play with minor Italian divisions. In the Italian football pyramid the levels under the 3rd are geographical based (under 4th are even regional based), but using the basic systems like adding the regional borders to each league or adding the regional divisions to each team still give some issue. Indeed, even adding a dynamic number of teams, after a couple of seasons there is always some southern team that goes in a northern group or viceversa and this is very annoying. I was wondering if someone knows any advanced method to put the teams in the proper group. Maybe adding some hidden stage at the beginning of the season? What do you think? In your opinion, what is the best way to handle this problem? Thank you

[KUBI]

Have a look into this thread:

 

[massa88]

Thank you

[krlenjushka]

Most important thing is to understand "mathematics" in league relegation system. Explain your system in levels where you have regional leagues.

Also if you wanna use this system you must use "hard regional rules" - i like to call this option "hard" because if you use this game will stick to "regional divisions" settings in every club 100%. Thats why your settings in leagues must be 100% accurate or your system will stop.

I even managed to use my system with leagues where promotion playoff with some other child division is included (sometimes you have 1 and sometimes 2 promoted clubs-this change number of relegated teams in real life and in game too).

 

I tried to understand Italian system but its to hard. Not sure how Serie C works.

[massa88]

Thank you for the reply.

This is the Italian current league system:

-Level 1: Serie A - 20 teams - 3 relegations

-Level 2: Serie B - 22 teams - 2 direct promotions + 1 promotion through playoffs , 3 direct relegations + 1 relegation through playout (18th vs 19th)

-Level 3: Serie C - 3 groups of 19 teams - 3 direct promotions (1 promotion per group) + 1 promotion through playoffs (28 teams participate in playoff: 9 per group + winner of the league cup) - 6 relegations through playouts (2 per group 16th vs 19th , 17th vs 18th)

This year only there is no direct relegation because due to teams bankrupt, there are 19 teams instead of 20 per group. In this way the leagues will be back to 20 teams next year (and the 20th will be directly relegated, for a total of 9 total relegations). The three groups are zone-based: roughly North, Centre and South or NorthWest, NorthEast and South.

- Level 4: Serie D - 9 groups of 18/20 teams (regularly 18 teams, but a couple of extra teams that goes bankrupt re-starts from this level). 9 promotions (1 per group) , no playoffs (they exist IRL only for replacing upper level teams going bankrupt, so they're pointless in FM); 18 direct relegations (2 per group) + 18 relegation through playouts (2 per group 13th vs 16th and 14th vs 15th in an 18 teams group)

The nine groups are zone-based, but they're not "fixed" to a region. Roughly the 18 southernmost teams go in group I (the 9th), the 18 most north-west go in group A. Promotions and relegations are always fixed at 1 and 4 per group. The division in groups is done every year at the beginning of the season, so a team can play one year in group C and one year in group D for example, but still the teams are geographically close to each other. There is never a southern team playing in group A for example.

- Level 5: Eccellenza - 28 groups of 16/18 teams - 29 direct promotions (1 per group + winner of league cup) + 7 through playoffs (teams participate from all groups); usually variable number of relegations (depending on the relegated from Serie D) to maintain the total number of teams in a group constant as in your system.

These 28 groups are region-based, so the constraint is more strict. Each group corresponds to a specific Italian region (big regions as Tuscany or Sicily have two groups, Lombardy has 3). For this level I suppose that your system is very well suitable, even if I don't know how it will handle the promotions from lower leagues (both if activated or if not) since the bottom level is also built in the same way just with more groups.

The Italian DBs usually reach level 5 or even 6, but still this problem is always present. I've reduced it using regional division to each team together with a dynamic number of teams (f.ex. 16-20 instead of fixing 18). I noticed that adding more regional division to a team can help a bit more, so when the first choice is not possible, the team go in the second chosen group. But still some teams manage to avoid all these limitations after some year, resulting in some southern teams in northern groups or vice versa. I would like to finally fix this issue in FM18 and reading your topic about dynamic relegation gave me a lot of hope.

However, I think that especially the 4th level needs something more. Indeed, the number of relegations should be fixed in this level, while the teams should move, just not randomly as FM does, but with a geographical order. I was thinking if maybe using a hidden stage at the beginning of the season, where the teams get ordered on geographical base, could solve the issue. But I need the opinion of some expert as you, and maybe some alternative ideas.

Thank you

[krlenjushka]

Hidden stage cant help here. Game cant sort teams in stage as you wish. Best way for level 4 (level 3 also if i undersand this) is to use regional boundaries for competitions but you have to check all cities. Level 5 is first level where you can use my settings but problem is this : if some team in level 4 is in wrong division you can have problem with mathematics for relegation.  I think this can be done but i need to change "teams" section in your case.

As you can see i use "ignore teams" option to ignore teams from other regions in "relegation zone" stage. In your cae i need to exclude all regions and to add relegated teams from all level 4 groups because i dont know where some team can be located based on "team move" action.

Very complicated system.

 

Also im not sure how regional boundaries option works on FM17. My serbian system is same in every level with child divisions so i use dynamic relegation without any major issues. I have level 6 system without single team in wrong division even after 20 seasons. Try to add all your clubs to level 3 parent divsion. Set boundaries for all 3 Serie C competitions and untick "use regional divisions to organize teams" in parent division. (active option but untick).

Test how teams are sorted in season #1 and season #2.

 

This is very big job and first think are you motivated enough for something like this

For example i have working system but lower league finances are major problem for me. Serbian clubs simply get too much money and i cant set that.

 

EDIT: for promotions to level 5 you can use divisions without any fixtures with fixed promotion number. I used divisions (every level 5 divisions should have their level 6 lower league).

So just to clarify- its big job and you should make plan first (i can help with this because its most important part) and start to make database changes.

Also you should test that boundaries so you can be sure how game will handle sorting.

 

EDIT2: hmm one more optional problem. I dont know how many relegated teams from level 4 can be from certain region because game can move teams to fill the gap. Thats why "relegation zone" stage is very hard to make.

That "use regional divisions to organize teams" option (i like to call it "hard regional rules") is made to keep teams 100% in their regions. Can be used in leagues with variable number of teams (IMO bad option becase you can have 24 teams in north and 12 in south after couple seasons - this is just example) or can be used in my dynamic relegation system. Its perfect for my system but this system cant be used in every country.

Thats why i think you shoudnt use my system because you cant use it in every level and can cause problems.

[massa88]

Thank you for the detailed answer.

Actually in a previous version for I was using the regional boundaries for Level 3 and 4, so I 've checked the coordinates of all the italian cities and correct them when wrong, so I'm not scared for the amount of work   In the end, in my current version I've decided to use regional divisions because the boundaries create squares and since Italy is "skewed", it was very hard to set proper and realistic boundaries. 

Yesterday I've checked in a 10 years save the teams in Level 4 and the problem starts when there are too many teams with a certain regional division. And for what I remember it was the same using the boundaries. I was now thinking that maybe assigning more than 1 (or more than 2) regional division to the teams could reduce the problem even more. In my save the teams were wrongly located 3 times and always for the same reason. I've settled 16/20 teams per group (instead of a fixed 18), but in three seasons the two southernmost groups (H and I) had already 20 teams each that could be assigned only to group H and I. So when an additional team with the same characteristic was being promoted/relegated to that level, it was moved to group A. I guess that the way to solve it would be increase even more the number of teams (f.ex. 22) but it'll lead to groups with 15-16 teams and that's not really nice or give to some teams also the possibility to be assigned to group G (as it would be done IRL).

Now I understand the problem with the "relegation zone". It is impossible to assign all the teams in a group of level 4 to the same secondary division, so I think I have to stick to the dynamic number of teams in level 5 (with the problems you mentioned: often a group shrink fast with only 12 teams and some grow a lot reaching 24, for example).

Last thing, I'm not sure if I understood completely what you mean for "I used divisions (every level 5 divisions should have their level 6 lower league)." I mean, I looked at the Serbian system and each level has more levels under it. For example, I've read that the Level 3 West has three groups under it (Level 4: Morava, Dunav, Drina). I got it from Wikipedia so it could be wrong  This is the same situation as in my Level 5 and 6. Basically if you want to stop at Level 3, you would set your level 4 without fixtures, fixing number of promotions and setting that these three groups (Morava, Dunav, Drina) refer to Level 3 West in order that the teams promoted are placed there. Did I understand correctly?

Thank you again for the help!

[krlenjushka]

3 hours ago, massa88 said:

Thank you for the detailed answer.

Actually in a previous version for I was using the regional boundaries for Level 3 and 4, so I 've checked the coordinates of all the italian cities and correct them when wrong, so I'm not scared for the amount of work   In the end, in my current version I've decided to use regional divisions because the boundaries create squares and since Italy is "skewed", it was very hard to set proper and realistic boundaries.

I created new cities for my serbian project and i set coordinates as i wish so i can can get squares without any overlap. Coordinates are not important for the game but squares overlap is. For example i have 5-6 cities in region #1 and all cities have same coordinates. Its easier to set and have no influence in game (or i cant see any).

 

3 hours ago, massa88 said:

Yesterday I've checked in a 10 years save the teams in Level 4 and the problem starts when there are too many teams with a certain regional division. And for what I remember it was the same using the boundaries. I was now thinking that maybe assigning more than 1 (or more than 2) regional division to the teams could reduce the problem even more. In my save the teams were wrongly located 3 times and always for the same reason. I've settled 16/20 teams per group (instead of a fixed 18), but in three seasons the two southernmost groups (H and I) had already 20 teams each that could be assigned only to group H and I. So when an additional team with the same characteristic was being promoted/relegated to that level, it was moved to group A. I guess that the way to solve it would be increase even more the number of teams (f.ex. 22) but it'll lead to groups with 15-16 teams and that's not really nice or give to some teams also the possibility to be assigned to group G (as it would be done IRL).

 

Yeah this can be problem when you use variable number of teams in leagues. Also its not like in real life so there is no reason to use this option.

 

3 hours ago, massa88 said:

Now I understand the problem with the "relegation zone". It is impossible to assign all the teams in a group of level 4 to the same secondary division, so I think I have to stick to the dynamic number of teams in level 5 (with the problems you mentioned: often a group shrink fast with only 12 teams and some grow a lot reaching 24, for example).

 

No problem with "relegation zone" - its stage in my dynamic relegation system responsible for determine who will be relagated depending on number of relegated teams from higher level - there is no "max" number of relegated teams from higher level because teams can be mixed there. I need that "max" number to set that stage properly. For example - in my serbian level 3 west, min number is 2 - max number of relegated teams is 6. This is crucial for "relegation zone" stage in level 4 leagues.

 

3 hours ago, massa88 said:

Last thing, I'm not sure if I understood completely what you mean for "I used divisions (every level 5 divisions should have their level 6 lower league)." I mean, I looked at the Serbian system and each level has more levels under it. For example, I've read that the Level 3 West has three groups under it (Level 4: Morava, Dunav, Drina). I got it from Wikipedia so it could be wrong  This is the same situation as in my Level 5 and 6. Basically if you want to stop at Level 3, you would set your level 4 without fixtures, fixing number of promotions and setting that these three groups (Morava, Dunav, Drina) refer to Level 3 West in order that the teams promoted are placed there. Did I understand correctly?

Thank you again for the help!

 

You asked how to set promotions from inactive level - thats why i told you to set "their level 6 league". This way you will be sure there is no wrong teams promoted to some level 5 league. You can set more leagues but promotion number must be fixed if you dont wanna play this league.

[massa88]

2 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

I created new cities for my serbian project and i set coordinates as i wish so i can can get squares without any overlap. Coordinates are not important for the game but squares overlap is. For example i have 5-6 cities in region #1 and all cities have same coordinates. Its easier to set and have no influence in game (or i cant see any).

That's true! I didn't think about it!

2 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

Yeah this can be problem when you use variable number of teams in leagues. Also its not like in real life so there is no reason to use this option.

Yes, I'd really like to avoid that option.

2 hours ago, krlenjushka said:

No problem with "relegation zone" - its stage in my dynamic relegation system responsible for determine who will be relagated depending on number of relegated teams from higher level - there is no "max" number of relegated teams from higher level because teams can be mixed there. I need that "max" number to set that stage properly. For example - in my serbian level 3 west, min number is 2 - max number of relegated teams is 6. This is crucial for "relegation zone" stage in level 4 leagues.

Got it! I've read carefully again the dynamic relegation topic and after your explanations it seems everything more clear. I should have min 1 - max 5 relegations per Level5 group. However, now I'll check again the structure and I start to test the method already for FM17 (at least some group) and see if I spot any difficulties with applying it in this Italian structure.  

[krlenjushka]

10 hours ago, massa88 said:

Got it! I've read carefully again the dynamic relegation topic and after your explanations it seems everything more clear. I should have min 1 - max 5 relegations per Level5 group. However, now I'll check again the structure and I start to test the method already for FM17 (at least some group) and see if I spot any difficulties with applying it in this Italian structure.  

 

You can have min 1 - max 5 only if you have "clear" divisions above. If your level 4 is mixed there is no way to know how many teams from certain region can be relegated. You can have teams from region A relegated in League A and also in League B because game moved that team to fill the gap in previous years.

With my knowlege so far - system can be 100% accurate with dynamic relegation or not. I dont think you can use this method on level 5 without use it on level 3 and 4.  Maybe there is some solution but i dont see any now.