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for some reason i was also expecting a new video today, but i'm starting to feel that i will be disappointed...

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The next video isn't ready. And there wasn't preset dates for releasing them. Not sure where the rigid expectations have come from. 

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3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The next video isn't ready. And there wasn't preset dates for releasing them. Not sure where the rigid expectations have come from. 

No doubt it's not ready, because the 25% offer is still active. I imagine it'll be ready the day after the discount finishes.

Edited by ChelseaFan

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People just want an excuse to either say 'no not buying because of xxx' or 'yep buying it because of xxx' I have pre ordered it anyway, even if they didn't release the first video I was always gong to pre order it! Regardless of new features I will be playing 18 to death, just like the 20 installments before it.

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Just now, ChelseaFan said:

No doubt it's not ready, because the 25% offer is still active. I imagine it'll be ready the day after the discount finishes.

Not sure what your point is. Only the headline video was aimed to be out before the 25% off deadline. If you're looking for argument with someone, it won't be with me. 

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Not sure what your point is. Only the headline video was aimed to be out before the 25% off deadline. If you're looking for argument with someone, it won't be with me. 

:D:D:D:D

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2 minutes ago, bigmattb28 said:

People just want an excuse to either say 'no not buying because of xxx' or 'yep buying it because of xxx' I have pre ordered it anyway, even if they didn't release the first video I was always gong to pre order it! Regardless of new features I will be playing 18 to death, just like the 20 installments before it.

My personal stance has always been to buy or not buy after playing the demo. I have to get the feel of the game first, regardless of headline news 

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

My personal stance has always been to buy or not buy after playing the demo. I have to get the feel of the game first, regardless of headline news 

That's more along the lines of how it should be.

The launch last year (or the one previous) in regards to the discount only being applicable before detail annoucement was shoddy. Miles launched some passive-aggressive tirade on twitter that the discount is for people who "trust" SI to deliver a quality product. Talk about praying on the loyalty of your fanbase.

 

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The whole social groups and hierarchy decided it for me. I love the idea of that

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20 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

I think we all know what we're getting by now and can pre-order with confidence.

This constant pressure for new features just encourages more 'fluff' to be added to the game which equates to more mouse clicks between each fixture which is a bad thing in my opinion.

The best announcement I could hear is there are no new features this year, we're just polishing what we already have.

Can't see it ever happening though.....

Totally agree.

They should get rid of "twitter" which is so badly implemented anyway it is a joke. I honestly have no idea who even bothers to check this in the game. Generic and completely unrealistic.

Also press conferences. Tedious, boring, unimportant...just a huge waste of time. Not to mention, they have been the same for years now.

I did preorder though, of course. Can't understand moaning here of people who are playing the game every year and now don't want to buy because they don't know what they will get..really? The core of the game has been the same for 20 years now, so to say you don't know what you will get is just a massive load of crap, I'm sorry.

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58 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Not sure what your point is. Only the headline video was aimed to be out before the 25% off deadline.

To be fair Miles did say that they may have 1 or 2 feature videos out before the 9th but he did say that wasn't for sure.

 

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Wait a minute... Is the Medical Center created after my feature suggestion (with some differences ofc)?

Yes! :applause:
And you say that ilkork is counterproductive! :D

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16 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

To be fair Miles did say that they may have 1 or 2 feature videos out before the 9th but he did say that wasn't for sure.

 

Indeed. The headline one was the one that needed to be about before that. Anything else would have been a bonus 

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I couldn't care less about 'new features'. I want to know if they have improved the match engine and the AI - and HOW they have done it.

 

I won't be pre-ordering or buying until I know that these things have been improved. There just hasn't been enough improvement in those 2 areas for me over the last 3 or 4 years to continue to justify buying what, essentially, has now become a data update every year. 

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18 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I couldn't care less about 'new features'. I want to know if they have improved the match engine and the AI - and HOW they have done it.

 

I won't be pre-ordering or buying until I know that these things have been improved. There just hasn't been enough improvement in those 2 areas for me over the last 3 or 4 years to continue to justify buying what, essentially, has now become a data update every year. 

No one has ever said you have to pre order or buy before you're happy. That's precisely what the demo is for. 

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Anyone think this tweet from Southampton's PLO might suggest they're in the game this year? Maybe as part of dynamics?

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, 91427 said:

Anyone think this tweet from Southampton's PLO might suggest they're in the game this year? Maybe as part of dynamics?

There's PLO in Southampton? Only PLO I know about had Yasser Arafat as a leader and was in Palestine. Could someone explain what is this branch in Southampton and who is this new bloke that stepped into Arafat's shoes?

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3 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

There's PLO in Southampton? Only PLO I know about had Yasser Arafat as a leader and was in Palestine. Could someone explain what is this branch in Southampton and who is this new bloke that stepped into Arafat's shoes?

In this case it's Player Liaison Officer... a subtle but vital difference

Edited by gunner86

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4 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

In this case it's Player Liaison Officer... a subtle but vital difference

ah thanks for that. I wonder if Yasser Arafat, the head of PLO had his PLO.

poor jokes aside, if this guy is in the game, I don't see why they don't put the tea lady, the guy who washes kits and one who rips tickets at the entrance. I mean, to have a guy responsible for players' housing and health insurance is surely stretching FM a bit towards Football Chairman mod. Hope you won't need to hire this kind of personnel as a manager in the game. 

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Guest El Payaso
5 minutes ago, Michael Zorc said:

 

Really good message there Sir.

And to add to this: the closing down settings haven't even made any real noticeable difference in the ME and for example zonal marking isn't really working and holes are easy to find everywhere. 

I also agree on you that the attacking play is a bit too fluid even with bad sides. I remember playing one touch precise passing play with 60-70% possession with Ebbsfleet FC. The quality of our passing play was better than with Barcelona and if the players would have some creativity in them in terms of longer range in terms of through ball the style of play would have been even better. I was all the time thinking that the team is playing way too well and at times much better than any team in real life. This of course also was down to the fact that the players didn't face tight marking or closing down when receiving the ball or while in possession. No one was making them rush the decision or attempt anything hard. Also even with a lower league club heavy touches were completely non existing. 

Watched Argentina play once again last evening and even with talented and skillful squad like that organizing the attacking play seems to be tough. It was basically one man team with Messi being the creator on everything and once again creating at least 5 clear chances and at least one of them should have been buried. But the fact still is that Argentina are facing the difficulty to get the team perform in attack even though the whole team in terms of attack is world class. 

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Not really bothered about new features, but i would like a bit more info/screenshots of the game to see if theres any other improvements before i pre-order.

I like what ive seen so far tho.

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I will play the demo then feel compelled to buy the game - lack of discipline - just as well I do need the discount to buy the game. Was hoping that this year i would wait until a sale around January time or a cheap cd key offer thingy but that somehow always eludes me, as I have by then, succumbed to temptation! 

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36 minutes ago, Michael Zorc said:

There needs to be dramatic improvement in these areas or SI risks the game being a simulation that doesn't reflect modern football, but instead a 1990's brand of EPL defending that doesn't really exist anymore

actually, there wasn't really any major breakthrough in defending since 90's (apart pressing which is more of attacking without the ball than positional defence) and Sacchi so we would be well off if it was on that level. what we have in FM is nothing like defending in real.

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1 hour ago, 91427 said:

Anyone think this tweet from Southampton's PLO might suggest they're in the game this year? Maybe as part of dynamics?

 

 

 

This is not the kind of thing I want to see, AFAIK a PLO is just an alternative way of calling someone a PA for people too pampered to deal with real life without assistance & I’m struggling to imagine what aspects of previous FM’s would be improved with such a non-playing role to be added.

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2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

No one has ever said you have to pre order or buy before you're happy. That's precisely what the demo is for. 

Except that SI's offer to 'loyal' customers like me who have played this game for over 25 years and owned every single version since it was introduced ends well before the demo, or even any hard information is out.

 

Does that honestly seem fair to anyone?

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8 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Except that SI's offer to 'loyal' customers like me who have played this game for over 25 years and owned every single version since it was introduced ends well before the demo, or even any hard information is out.

 

Does that honestly seem fair to anyone?

Yes. They don't have to offer a discount at all, and it ends after the headline video was released 

You could wait and shop around for deals like lots of others do, in fact these offers are often posted into GD. You can also wait a little after release for the inevitable price drop too. You've got options 

 

 

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Based on previous years its not going to be difficult to get a copy of FM at a price significantly below the standard Steam RRP.

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1 hour ago, Michael Zorc said:

I

There needs to be dramatic improvement in these areas or SI risks the game being a simulation that doesn't reflect modern football,

It could be that or they simply evaluate their feedback and know their audience. ;):D:( I think I've generally never played a game where the interests/expectations can be so divisive. Given that at the core of it is a somewhat make-belief version of a sports that can be fully enjoyed by understanding it purely on an emotional level (SURELY THAT IDIOT SHOULD HAVE SCORED THIS!!!!! :mad: /// GET IN THERE GAFFER!!! /// KANE TAKING FREE KICKS, YOU'RE A N00B THAT NEEDS SOME SACKING, WOY!), that's probably not surprising though. I would class myself at falling somewhere in between... in some areas, FM has actually contributed to me digging a few deeper into things than I did before. Agree on the defending. The irony is the day the game has nailed "intelligent" zonal defending may also be a day that could ease player frustration, as it's not seldom "holes" that need "pet peeving" that cause feedback to go mental. On a player's front. The AI doesn't give a hoot if it's getting exploited or plucks them. It also doesn't complain. It simply does. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. Would love to have a forum where AI can gather and discuss things though.

Well that, and that it's a sports that isn't a "proven science" quite yet. Everybody's got an opinion. And everybody thinks it should count the most. :D

Edited by Svenc

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46 minutes ago, Barside said:

Based on previous years its not going to be difficult to get a copy of FM at a price significantly below the standard Steam RRP.

Exactly. In fact, there'll be a thread here at some point too. 

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2 hours ago, Michael Zorc said:

I'm totally with you on this. Only interested in the match engine and tactics/training - i.e. the stuff that actually relates to football.

In the last 10 years, the football world has really moved on in terms of pressing and marking schemes but SI has been stuck firmly in the past with just "zonal", "tight" or "specific man", completely ignoring recent innovations or just letting them fly right by them without really noticing.

There needs to be dramatic improvement in these areas or SI risks the game being a simulation that doesn't reflect modern football, but instead a 1990's brand of EPL defending that doesn't really exist anymore, all the while trying to squeeze modern roles into an outdated defensive tactical framework that causes offenses and certain individual roles to be way too overpowered in the attacking phase. It's too easy to score goals and exploit holes in the opponents' defence and this needs major work in order to be fully addressed.

So far, I haven't seen enough to pre-order so happy enough to continue my FM17 saves with Ajax & Rangers using a new 3-5-2-0 formation that I'm quite enjoying (although my offense, while great to watch, shouldn't be this good in reality).

Anyway, I reckon SI are waiting for Catalonia to declare independence on Monday before announcing their next feature...😥

Good call this. And I think this has been mentioned at least a few times before on this board. 

Football has become a lot more tactical now with varied pressing styles, zonal, man-marking and even a mix of both. 

Even teams that press has differences on how they press, when it is triggered...

A game as established as SI should have a group keen football experts that can advise on this, not just game developers. 

It is a travesty for a game that prides itself as the best football management game in the world to be so way behind in this. 

If anything is to be improved, this has got to be at the top of the list. 

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3 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Really good message there Sir.

And to add to this: the closing down settings haven't even made any real noticeable difference in the ME and for example zonal marking isn't really working and holes are easy to find everywhere. 

I also agree on you that the attacking play is a bit too fluid even with bad sides. I remember playing one touch precise passing play with 60-70% possession with Ebbsfleet FC. The quality of our passing play was better than with Barcelona and if the players would have some creativity in them in terms of longer range in terms of through ball the style of play would have been even better. I was all the time thinking that the team is playing way too well and at times much better than any team in real life. This of course also was down to the fact that the players didn't face tight marking or closing down when receiving the ball or while in possession. No one was making them rush the decision or attempt anything hard. Also even with a lower league club heavy touches were completely non existing. 

Watched Argentina play once again last evening and even with talented and skillful squad like that organizing the attacking play seems to be tough. It was basically one man team with Messi being the creator on everything and once again creating at least 5 clear chances and at least one of them should have been buried. But the fact still is that Argentina are facing the difficulty to get the team perform in attack even though the whole team in terms of attack is world class. 

I had a similar experience with Tranmere Rovers in terms of the Barcelona-style football you referenced with Ebbsfleet FC. One of the regretful aspects of FM is that to enjoy a more difficult save, one must usually choose a club that is somewhat restrained in the transfer market and with the quality of players they have at their disposal, due to size and resources, as opposed to being able to find a deeper, more sophisticated tactical challenge in a higher/different league.

We've even seen teams like Rangers/Celtic hold a Messi-inspired Barcelona scoreless in CL games despite limited resources so as you quite rightly point out, a world class offense and tactically astute manager isn't always enough to easily break down smaller opponents. I've found that aspect of football elusive in FM.

Winning is fun, but I think from a purist point of view the holy grail is realism and being able to re-create real life systems in an FM match engine that is flexible enough to accomodate new, innovative ideas. In other words, give us the tools to show how good we are - and to allow the world class AI managers like Guardiola and Simeone to really separate themselves and show how good they are. It has to be a 2-way street or the game becomes unrealistic and too easy.

2 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

actually, there wasn't really any major breakthrough in defending since 90's (apart pressing which is more of attacking without the ball than positional defence) and Sacchi so we would be well off if it was on that level. what we have in FM is nothing like defending in real.

It's an interesting discussion as I think the overarching principles have been around a while and many of the new innnovations have simply been built on top of that, with roots in the ideas taught by Michels, Cruyff and Sacchi.

However, in terms of the complexity of the organisation, setting up the counterpress with positional attacking, methods to counter opponent dismarking measures, triggers to set up situational counterpresses to effectively force an opponent back to the prior transition phase, having situational and pitch geographic specific orientations in marking schemes, and the individual variations of counterpressing: man-oriented, space-oriented, ball-oriented and passing-lane, I think that has moved on since the 90's.

On some level, taken individually, all concepts have been around for decades (whether as a deliberate strategy a team trained for, or spontaneous, player-initiated action on the pitch) but as a collective whole and cohesive strategy across a wide range of leagues and teams, I think football has seen a change in the last decade as the coaching curriculae have improved and the younger coaches have infiltrated many more clubs, inspired by the likes of Sacchi and Lobonovski, Cruyff etc and looking to do even better with additional tools of analysis (e.g. video, tracking devices), better facilities (training pitch positional grids) and higher player/coach education throughout each club (now more widespread than the famous whole club tactical and technical philosophies that were once largely exclusive to Ajax/Barcelona).

I think it's largely evident as we see some of the older "world class" coaches become less relevant in the modern game. Keegan/Dalglish of the mid-90's in England couldn't get a job today (Howard Wilkinson on '92 fame I believe got Sunderland relegated after Peter Reid left) and Ancelotti seen as an innovator at AC Milan with his 4-3-2-1/4-3-1-2 struggles to really impose a tactical identity on any of his teams and largely has to rely on superior players dominating their league and man management techniques to get the best out of them. He more recently has taken over a more disciplined organiser (Mourinho, Guardiola), whose influence doesn't immediately go away, hence being able to still win things until that fades after 1-2 seasons. That's why I believe he hasn't lasted more than a couple years at Chelsea, R. Madrid and Bayern. Just my take on it, though.

I guess similar arguments for how football has collectively move on can be made for Benitez and Wenger, both seen as among the top innovators in the EPL at one point. It's not necessarily that their defensive schemes have changed or been degraded, it's more how teams defend against them, not just one or two teams, but the whole league can deal with the threats they pose/that were unique to their attacks when they first burst onto the scene.

Trapattoni, Capello, Hitzfeld, van Gaal, Hiddink, Boskov, Lobonovski, Antic - I'm not entirely sure these guys could get a top job AND be consistently successful in today's game, despite their obvious pedigree. All defended/marked/pressed in their own ways very successfully with varying degrees of depth and aggression but I'm not sure they possess the array of tools and complexity that we see at the top today. Could they learn and adapt? No doubt, especially with their skills and talent, I just think they'd do it differently to how they did it when they were winning in the 90's. Of course, I could be wrong and maybe my perception is off entirely. :D

EPL defences in particular had to adapt, as the prevelance of inside forwards became more common, to block those half-spaces the likes of Pires used to exploit so well.

Going back and watching old games, it is sometimes amazing to marvel at the space between defence, midfield & attack.

Until I actually went back and watched some 90's DVDs of Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and EPL (Football On Tap is a really good resource), I didn't believe the difference to today was so big. There were one-offs that were ahead of their time, absolutely for sure, but the leagues collectively have improved to a degree I didn't realise until I actually reviewed the old footage.

I think I have nostalgic memories of the 90's that sometimes clouds my memory of what the tactical organisation was like back then compared to now. At the time, it was the best I'd seen and things evolve so gradually over the decades that it's hard to remember just how much of a jump we've made in coaching quality over a period of, say, 20 years. :)

I just hope these ongoing changes in football are really tackled by SI to a much greater degree than they have been in the past as I don't think there has been a lot of innovation in the actual defensive strategies available to an FM game-world manager in the last decade. Has SI tried to improve the quality of defending that exists in the game? Sure, but I'm not sure that they've gone beyond that to really reflect the way defences are organised and used as an attacking weapon to disrupt opponents in real-life, modern football. FM defending feels very reactive and simplistic in comparison.

Just my view and insight into what my hopes, dreams and aspirations for change are when looking forward to the new FM18 release. :)

Edited by Michael Zorc

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5 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

I think we all know what we're getting by now and can pre-order with confidence.

This constant pressure for new features just encourages more 'fluff' to be added to the game which equates to more mouse clicks between each fixture which is a bad thing in my opinion.

The best announcement I could hear is there are no new features this year, we're just polishing what we already have.

Can't see it ever happening though.....

Couldn't agree more.

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That must be super hard to implement or the side effects are so chilling that it is not worthy of including in the production ME.

Ideas to improve the ME are all great and I'm sure PaulC has a million of them. Bear in mind that every little change reflects on the entire 'ecosystem'.

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18 minutes ago, Bobby_Zamora said:

That must be super hard to implement or the side effects are so chilling that it is not worthy of including in the production ME.

Ideas to improve the ME are all great and I'm sure PaulC has a million of them. Bear in mind that every little change reflects on the entire 'ecosystem'.

It's not just the changes. You need to have the right interface as well. 

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12 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It's not just the changes. You need to have the right interface as well. 

And an AI capable of using it.

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For the entitled complaining about how it's all just so unfaaaaair, it's worth noting that there are regular periods, including close to release, where plenty of retailers will offer the game at a reduced rate.  If you're really on the fence, best thing is to wait until there's a demo available, play the hell out of it, then make an informed decision (on your own, without anyone colouring your judgement) based on that.  You'll be very unlikely to pay full price at that stage unless you just buy it from Steam without shopping around.

SI don't have to offer any discount, and the 2 offers they've had last year and this are a nice gesture for those that want to sacrifice not knowing the full story about the game for the sake of, what, 7 or 8 quid?  That's a personal choice, not an obligation.  I'd imagine if they said it would be 20 quid across the board people would still complain, mostly those that would greet the invention of the TV with, "Aye but there's nowt on".

Edited by forameuss

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3 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

poor jokes aside, if this guy is in the game, I don't see why they don't put the tea lady, the guy who washes kits and one who rips tickets at the entrance. I mean, to have a guy responsible for players' housing and health insurance is surely stretching FM a bit towards Football Chairman mod. Hope you won't need to hire this kind of personnel as a manager in the game. 

You mean this guy, from FM17?

FM17.thumb.PNG.3140a60f508d960642d05f2bf8995b8a.PNG

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So was a new measly paragraph of detail about features released today or what? This is so silly. Is this really what marketing is about?

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7 minutes ago, serif said:

So was a new measly paragraph of detail about features released today or what? This is so silly. Is this really what marketing is about?

theres a video detailing the new dynamics feature on sunday

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21 minutes ago, serif said:

So was a new measly paragraph of detail about features released today or what? This is so silly. Is this really what marketing is about?

Just a few posts up, I posted a tweet from Miles saying there will be a video on Sunday. Miles never said when there was going to be more news, but now we know.

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51 minutes ago, Stuart Warren said:

You mean this guy, from FM17?

in last fm i own (16), the same line was reported by someone from the coaching staff. really don't know what this adds to the game while there is no proper defence in the ME ( some basic stuff like DLine dropping behind the player who moves forward to head the ball isn't present! ).

@Michael Zorc agree on most of things you say. just wanted to highlight the modern defensive principles were last time "updated" in 90s with, among others, Sacchi. So the knowledge was there and it took some time before it became an absolute norm. They are so effective and still valid that, i'd argue, they are in a way responsible for the development of modern tactics as Guardiola and likes try to find ways around them.

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4 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Really good message there Sir.

And to add to this: the closing down settings haven't even made any real noticeable difference in the ME and for example zonal marking isn't really working and holes are easy to find everywhere. 

I also agree on you that the attacking play is a bit too fluid even with bad sides. I remember playing one touch precise passing play with 60-70% possession with Ebbsfleet FC. The quality of our passing play was better than with Barcelona and if the players would have some creativity in them in terms of longer range in terms of through ball the style of play would have been even better. I was all the time thinking that the team is playing way too well and at times much better than any team in real life. This of course also was down to the fact that the players didn't face tight marking or closing down when receiving the ball or while in possession. No one was making them rush the decision or attempt anything hard. Also even with a lower league club heavy touches were completely non existing. 

Watched Argentina play once again last evening and even with talented and skillful squad like that organizing the attacking play seems to be tough. It was basically one man team with Messi being the creator on everything and once again creating at least 5 clear chances and at least one of them should have been buried. But the fact still is that Argentina are facing the difficulty to get the team perform in attack even though the whole team in terms of attack is world class. 

There was nothing tactical about Argentina last night. That's was basic awful finishing. 4 of those chances were clear cut. 

Messi was also playing a completely different role to Barcelona. He was essentially playing centre mid. 

There was absolutely nothing organised abour their attack. It was basically give it to Messi and abdicate personal responsibility. Not a good example to use. 

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20 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:


@Michael Zorc agree on most of things you say. just wanted to highlight the modern defensive principles were last time "updated" in 90s with, among others, Sacchi. So the knowledge was there and it took some time before it became an absolute norm. They are so effective and still valid that, i'd argue, they are in a way responsible for the development of modern tactics as Guardiola and likes try to find ways around them.

Agreed. :)

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Guest El Payaso
1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

There was nothing tactical about Argentina last night. That's was basic awful finishing. 4 of those chances were clear cut. 

Messi was also playing a completely different role to Barcelona. He was essentially playing centre mid. 

There was absolutely nothing organised abour their attack. It was basically give it to Messi and abdicate personal responsibility. Not a good example to use. 

But isn't this exactly a good example on how it isn't easy to make the attacking play flow well even with world class players? Argentina yesterday relying too much on Messi and it really wasn't the only time and only example of teams doing this. As a Chelsea fan I can tell that Chelsea have for example struggled with attacking play for years. 

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

There was nothing tactical about Argentina last night. That's was basic awful finishing. 4 of those chances were clear cut.

You mean a few actually decent chances expected to be converted --- not to be confused with the stat that's been in FM. ;)

Not having watched the match, @El Payaso brings still up a good point, which is in the game, actually. If a forward misses chances, he's suspect to get frustrated, which rubs slightly on his shot conversion (or else it would be completely cosmetical). Therefore, if all the finishes would fall to one guy (Messi?), and you wouldn't have a second avenue, in-game, you are slightly more prone to suffer a few too. Maybe you could call this the "Ronaldo" effect. :D Even with better feedback, management isn't stats and will never be in-game too.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, El Payaso said:

But isn't this exactly a good example on how it isn't easy to make the attacking play flow well even with world class players? Argentina yesterday relying too much on Messi and it really wasn't the only time and only example of teams doing this. As a Chelsea fan I can tell that Chelsea have for example struggled with attacking play for years. 

Not really. Even with the awful set up, the players should have finished the chances. 

This wasn't a good set up frustrated. It was a poor setup that was was still missing really good chances. 

Bad tactical management and low morale, responsibility shirking players. 

I get the point you're trying to make, but Argentina are not the example to use imo

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6 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yes. They don't have to offer a discount at all, and it ends after the headline video was released 

You could wait and shop around for deals like lots of others do, in fact these offers are often posted into GD. You can also wait a little after release for the inevitable price drop too. You've got options 

 

 

Okay. Agree to disagree. I feel it is basically a shoddy way of doing business, you don't. I just feel this is all going down the wrong road for the gaming public.

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