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Midfield roles in a 4-4-2 Diamond

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I've created a simple 4-4-2 Diamond, and results have been largely impressive so far although I am Man Utd. It's quite vanilla as you can see below, but i'm wondering if there's any flexibility in terms of the roles allocated to my centre-midfielders? I know the flanks are an obvious weakness of this system, so my midfielders need to be hard-working to cover the spaces etc which I will bare in mind, but I do want to get more out of Pogba in particular. Thanks :)

Screen Shot 2017-09-11 at 16.11.15.png

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I would caution against making two many more aggressive changes to your Roles. You've already got 5 players attacking the final third (RB, LB, AM, DLF & AF). I'd recommend not doing it for three reasons (1) you could become very over-committed and leave too much space behind you for teams to catch you on the break and (2) You're on Control so you should expect reasonably quick transitions. If you have two many players attacking the final third then the only way for the ball to travel up the pitch will the fullbacks or a long ball, which might not be enough variety to break down stubborn sides and, lastly, (3) you don't want to crowd the final third too much. You've got a DLF & an AP already trying to work space around the box with FB options out wide and an AF attacking the channels. Two simple supporting CMs might be just the ticket. They'll stay back until fairly late in the move giving you adequate cover even though they will eventually arrive on the edge of the box if numbers are required.

Other potential options are the fairly standard BBM who'll do a bit of everything, like the CM but just that bit more aggressively, BBM's have a bigger zone they work in. You could try a RPM if you want someone to work the ball up the pitch nice and meticulously. With a player like Pogba there's always the option of turning him into a BWM(s) as well. He'll work like a BBM but, defensively, rather than tracking back to win the ball he'll do it in the opponent's half. Useful if you want to stamp out opposition break's nice and quickly.

My personal preference is CM but it really is a matter of taste.

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Thanks for the reply. 

Yeah pretty much in agreement with everything you've said - the tactic on the whole is working pretty well and the CM's do provide good balance although not really contributing in terms of goals/assists. 

I had considered a BBM for Pogba, could be viable although if he roams (due to it being hardcoded) and the FB-a is caught up field then we could be screwed. 

What do you think about the combination of a WB-s and an AP-s on the right side? Essentially building up on the right, switching play quickly over to the left for the FB-a/AF-a to exploit?

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To get more out of Pogba, I would use him on AMC slot. He's a greal goalscorer and he can easly win physical battles versus opposition DM.

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14 hours ago, yau said:

To get more out of Pogba, I would use him on AMC slot. He's a greal goalscorer and he can easly win physical battles versus opposition DM.

Definitely something i'll consider :thup: 

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I'm using a very similar set up, to great effect.

I would recommend using the ball winning midfielder as one of the two central midfielders (can be support duty), using a BWM in the DM position will leave your Centre Backs exposed (especially as your full backs are pushing on) as he will aggressively close down vacating his position, no doubt many of the goals you're conceding are from counter attacks. An Anchor, DM/D or even Half Back will likely give you better protection and will still contribute to build up play and recycling possession.

I think the 442 Diamond is a great way to go this year :thup: 

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24 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

I'm using a very similar set up, to great effect.

I would recommend using the ball winning midfielder as one of the two central midfielders (can be support duty), using a BWM in the DM position will leave your Centre Backs exposed (especially as your full backs are pushing on) as he will aggressively close down vacating his position, no doubt many of the goals you're conceding are from counter attacks. An Anchor, DM/D or even Half Back will likely give you better protection and will still contribute to build up play and recycling possession.

I think the 442 Diamond is a great way to go this year :thup: 

I'm really loving this set up! Keeping it minimal in terms of ti's for now as my mentality gives me a lot of things i'm after anyway (fast transitions, medium-high block etc).

I think you're right about changing the BWM to a DM/d or something similar - against lesser teams we can get away with it but in the big matches my centre-backs were left horribly exposed and I couldn't understand why :idiot: 

Also, do you think there's room for a playmaker type role in midfield? For example Herrera and Pogba could both play as an AP-s, but have the physical stats to cover the defensive side of the game also.

 

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Yep, only have one TI myself (play narrower). I only use them for what I can't do via player instructions. I also ended up Control/Flexible oddly enough.

I don't use playmakers myself (unless I have a player much better than everyone else) as I try not to artificially force play via one or two players and prefer attacks to occur more organically, but that's just me, nothing wrong with playmakers.

It sounds like, with so many great players, you wan't them all to be man of the match!

I wouldn't stress, you have one playmaker already, i'd still expect Pogba/Herrera to contribute plenty of goals/assists even with their relatively mundane roles as well as putting in a good defensive shift. 

 

 

 

Edited by Mr U Rosler

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36 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Yep, only have one TI myself (play narrower). I only use them for what I can't do via player instructions. I also ended up Control/Flexible oddly enough.

I don't use playmakers myself (unless I have a player much better than everyone else) as I try not to artificially force play via one or two players and prefer attacks to occur more organically, but that's just me, nothing wrong with playmakers.

It sounds like, with so many great players, you wan't them all to be man of the match!

I wouldn't stress, you have one playmaker already, i'd still expect Pogba/Herrera to contribute plenty of goals/assists even with their relatively mundane roles as well as putting in a good defensive shift. 

 

 

 

Out of interest, what are the key player instructions have you used? 

Honestly because Pogba is just such a complete player I always try and make him the focal point of any tactic - sometimes at the detriment of the overall system. He's playing well (as is the team) but hasn't scored or assisted in 6 games but has an average rating of 7.17 so i can't really complain. 

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I'm at work now, will post up the player instructions later.

If I was building a tactic around Pogba i'd probably still use him in Central Midfield so you benefit from his powerful running as well as his technical ability. Advanced Playmaker/Attack would be my preferred option (or Central Midfield/Attack if I didn't want a playmaker). I'd change the AMC to Attacking Midfielder/Support to balance things out. So you're re-worked midfield would look something like this.

 

 

                                                    Attacking Midfielder/Support

 

            Advanced Playmaker/Attack (POGBA)                   Ball Winning Midfielder/Support    

 

                                           Anchor Man or Defensive Midfield/Defend

 

 

I'd ensure Pogba was in the channel behind your more advanced Striker so he has room to attack, in your case on the left side.

With the Attacking Midfielder now on 'Support', he will no longer run beyond you support Striker very often so you might consider changing the Deep Lying Forward to Complete Forward/Support to push him up a bit.  

Doesn't mean its right, but that's what i'd do!

 

Edited by Mr U Rosler

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10 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

I'm at work now, will post up the player instructions later.

If I was building a tactic around Pogba i'd probably still use him in Central Midfield so you benefit from his powerful running as well as his technical ability. Advanced Playmaker/Attack would be my preferred option (or Central Midfield/Attack if I didn't want a playmaker). I'd change the AMC to Attacking Midfielder/Support to balance things out. So you're re-worked midfield would look something like this.

 

 

                                                    Attacking Midfielder/Support

 

            Advanced Playmaker/Attack (POGBA)                   Ball Winning Midfielder/Support    

 

                                           Anchor Man or Defensive Midfield/Defend

 

 

I'd ensure Pogba was in the channel behind your more advanced Striker so he has room to attack, in your case on the left side.

With the Attacking Midfielder now on 'Support', he will no longer run beyond you support Striker very often so you might consider changing the Deep Lying Forward to Complete Forward/Support to push him up a bit.  

Doesn't mean its right, but that's what i'd do!

 

That's very similar to what I was thinking of doing.. great minds ey :brock:I reckon this set up could be really cool with Pogba and Miki playing quick one-twos and switching positions :thup: Would also get more out of Lukaku switching him to a CF-s as he lacks vision and passing for the DLF-s role he's currently playing in, will definitely give this a go.

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In regards to using a playmaker yes or no, this is what I do sometimes.

I assess my formation vs formation of opponent and see where a playmaker naturally would have most space to work. So for example:

4-1-2-1-2 vs 4-2-3-1

I would use my playmaker at CAM slot and Anchorman at DM to nullify their CAM

4-1-2-1-2 vs 4-1-2-3 (4-3-3)

I would use my playmaker at DM slot

 

Btw I use the exact same setup for my Portsmouth diamond. Sometimes I experiment with control mentality, retain possession, pass into space

When I feel I need to be more cautious I turn one CM(s) into a CM(d) or turn a Fullback into support role

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I think the main issue you'll have is fitting it with your current squad.  Lukaku isn't really a linking player whilst strong and able to hold up the ball he's more of a poacher, staying in the box and not really looking to link or create.  With Martial & Rashford that doesn't really create a top class balanced partnership imo.

I have used a 4312 with a 433 wide variation where I only change the front 3 depending who is available or who I was to use.  The 433 wide suited the faster forwards more as they can attack the wide spaces and let the forward occupy the middle.  I felt the 4312 suited more intelligent players like Mata who didn't have the same quickness.

The central midfielder linked play, usually a dlp-d and two CM-S flanking him with PIs to close down more.  Sometimes I'd get them to play less risky to create space by drawing opponents to them, playing a simple pass to one of the three forwards who should have space to create a chance.  When you already have 3 advanced roles trying lots of risky things you don't need more players trying as well.

Edited by summatsupeer

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2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I think the main issue you'll have is fitting it with your current squad.  Lukaku isn't really a linking player whilst strong and able to hold up the ball he's more of a poacher, staying in the box and not really looking to link or create.  With Martial & Rashford that doesn't really create a top class balanced partnership imo.

I have used a 4312 with a 433 wide variation where I only change the front 3 depending who is available or who I was to use.  The 433 wide suited the faster forwards more as they can attack the wide spaces and let the forward occupy the middle.  I felt the 4312 suited more intelligent players like Mata who didn't have the same quickness.

The central midfielder linked play, usually a dlp-d and two CM-S flanking him with PIs to close down more.  Sometimes I'd get them to play less risky to create space by drawing opponents to them, playing a simple pass to one of the three forwards who should have space to create a chance.  When you already have 3 advanced roles trying lots of risky things you don't need more players trying as well.

The main issue is as you said, none of the strikers at my disposal are suited to being a creative forward, Lukaku/Martial are strong enough but lack vision and passing attributes. I'm also lacking squad depth for the strikers as Ibra is currently injured. 

How was your 4-3-3 set up? Ideally i'd like to use Miki as an AMC as this would get the best out of him, but then again a 4-2-3-1 would limit Pogba. 

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Off top of my head:

SK-D

DR: FB-S

DCR: CB-D

DCL: BPD-C

DL: CWM-A

MCR: CM-S (close down more)

MC: DLP-D

MCL: CM-S (close down more, less risky passes, dribble less, shoot less - basically a BWM type but without hard tackling feeding the DL and creative players around him)

Then my front three was either:

AMC: AP-A

STCR: CF-S

STCL: AF-A

The front three in the 433 version was more changeable but typically an attack duty in AMR (RMD/W/IF) and a creative role in AML (IF/AP). The forward was the troublesome part, I preferred DLF-A but seemed better with a support duty, was still working on it.

I think Miki is better working outside to in whilst mata is better starting inside.

Edited by summatsupeer

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21 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Off top of my head:

SK-D

DR: FB-S

DCR: CB-D

DCL: BPD-C

DL: CWM-A

MCR: CM-S (close down more)

MC: DLP-D

MCL: CM-S (close down more, less risky passes, dribble less, shoot less - basically a BWM type but without hard tackling feeding the DL and creative players around him)

Then my front three was either:

AMC: AP-A

STCR: CF-S

STCL: AF-A

The front three in the 433 version was more changeable but typically an attack duty in AMR (RMD/W/IF) and a creative role in AML (IF/AP). The forward was the troublesome part, I preferred DLF-A but seemed better with a support duty, was still working on it.

I think Miki is better working outside to in whilst mata is better starting inside.

So I could use Miki as an AP-s on the left, Lukaku as a DLF-a and then Martial as a RMD/IF-a on the right?

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46 minutes ago, jc577 said:

So I could use Miki as an AP-s on the left, Lukaku as a DLF-a and then Martial as a RMD/IF-a on the right?

I think AP-S is more of a pass and move type player whilst I think Miki is more of a creator whilst moving with the ball or making runs off the ball. 

I'd say IF-S or AP-A would probably suit him. I think of a AP-A as more of a deeper creative supportive player even though he's on attack duty as he isn't instructed to "Get Forward", so whilst I normally would question having the front 3 on attack, since one is a playmaker its not truly 3 "runners".

Other 2 roles+duties should work okay.

Edited by summatsupeer

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39 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I think AP-S is more of a pass and move type player whilst I think Miki is more of a runner with or without the ball. 

I'd say IF-S or AP-A would probably suit him. I think of a AP-A as more of a deeper creative supportive player even though he's on attack duty as he isn't instructed to "Get Forward", so whilst I normally would question having the front 3 on attack, since one is a playmaker its not truly 3 "runners".  

I agree Miki is definitely a runner, an AP-S would suit a Mata/Silva type player. My initial thought was to use him as an AP-A on the left - with Pogba as a BBM and then Shaw as a WB-S? 

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1 minute ago, jc577 said:

I agree Miki is definitely a runner, an AP-S would suit a Mata/Silva type player. My initial thought was to use him as an AP-A on the left - with Pogba as a BBM and then Shaw as a WB-S? 

Give it a go if thats what you want to try, just have a think why your setting them up like that, how/when will they interact and with whom. 

As far as why I setup like I did:

  1. I prefer the DL gets forward earlier which requires more risk taking, I want him bursting into space early (during transition) when the AML is pulling the opponents DR high/inside. 
  2. A CM-S is a threat around the box and will get in the box to, where will he go if I add Roaming or use a BBM?  Having him stay more in the central left area will give a close option for the AML plus a pullback/crossing option for the DL.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm assuming your thinking of making Shaw more conservative as a WB-S so that flank isn't as open if you give Pogba more freedom as a BBM.  I think that giving attacking width to stretch opponents will give him more space inside without needing to roam from position.  With the teams main creator next to him and with cover from a DLP creating+covering, a more conservative RB and the other MCR potentially covering I think that gives him the freedom to get in and around the box, just keeping more to that inside left/central side.

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I have had a load of success with my Skeid save with this setup:

 

AMC -  AM (Support)

MCL - BBM

MCR - RPM/AP

DM - DM - D

 

This was the formation that gave me some upsets against bigger clubs in Europe competition.

 

My team has gotten better and I've since tweaked it to:

MCL - BBM

MCR - BBM

DM - DLP - D

But that was also as much a result of finding a very, very good midfielder that could do BBM without issue.  My DLP isn't a great tackler, but does have decent positioning and anticipation and can still break up plays via interceptions pretty well.  If I need to I can switch this to a DM - D.

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On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 17:15, jc577 said:

I've created a simple 4-4-2 Diamond, and results have been largely impressive so far although I am Man Utd. It's quite vanilla as you can see below, but i'm wondering if there's any flexibility in terms of the roles allocated to my centre-midfielders? I know the flanks are an obvious weakness of this system, so my midfielders need to be hard-working to cover the spaces etc which I will bare in mind, but I do want to get more out of Pogba in particular. Thanks :)

Screen Shot 2017-09-11 at 16.11.15.png

Can I first say I noticed your overload of the opponents final third.maybe push your DM  (bwm) to the CM strata and offer the dlp(d) role.hence you can still utilise two cm (s).

One striker poacher and the other Cf (su).then  you can make a decision to Give your Am the Am (su) role and PI :hold up ball.he'll still operate as a proper Ap.Control and fluid is aggressive but it'll be good to use.

👍

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7 hours ago, denen123 said:

Can I first say I noticed your overload of the opponents final third.maybe push your DM  (bwm) to the CM strata and offer the dlp(d) role.hence you can still utilise two cm (s).

This is a common modification I make to my own 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow.  I don't always use it, as sometimes it's nice to have that DLP sit a bit farther back to help recycle possession, but having that player up in the midfield strata helps spread out the midfielders which can be helpful too.

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On 9/11/2017 at 21:27, yau said:

To get more out of Pogba, I would use him on AMC slot. He's a greal goalscorer and he can easly win physical battles versus opposition DM.

That's where I almost always play him, really good 10 who'll track back and get stuck in.

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5 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

This is a common modification I make to my own 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow.  I don't always use it, as sometimes it's nice to have that DLP sit a bit farther back to help recycle possession, but having that player up in the midfield strata helps spread out the midfielders which can be helpful too.

I always opt to play it safe by offering him the ppm:1.come deep to collect ball.

2.SIMPLE PASSES.

3.dictate tempo

4.one two's 

No need wasting possession.😊.my issue used to be against teams like athletico and spurs that have solid defensive base and "one shot" attacking setup.but adjusting the defensive line set me up for good seasons.now I'm trying other tactics though.@o-ozil gives the best reviews to learn from if I may say.

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Thanks for the replies, been busy the past few days so haven't really had time to reply but the information I'm sure will be useful.

On 13/09/2017 at 23:00, alanschu14 said:

My team has gotten better and I've since tweaked it to:

MCL - BBM

MCR - BBM

DM - DLP - D

But that was also as much a result of finding a very, very good midfielder that could do BBM without issue.  My DLP isn't a great tackler, but does have decent positioning and anticipation and can still break up plays via interceptions pretty well.  If I need to I can switch this to a DM - D.

How does using a DLP-D differ to using DM-D? Does a DLP (the role) recycle possession better due to the nature of the role? Also, what's the benefit of pushing 'the holder' up to the CM strata?

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2 hours ago, jc577 said:

Thanks for the replies, been busy the past few days so haven't really had time to reply but the information I'm sure will be useful.

How does using a DLP-D differ to using DM-D? Does a DLP (the role) recycle possession better due to the nature of the role? Also, what's the benefit of pushing 'the holder' up to the CM strata?

The players play through the DLP more (which supports my understanding that playmakers are treated this way by the match engine).  Though I think this might now be a "not always good" thing because a few teams have been super successful parking the bus on me haha.  My DM player is also a magnificent passer with great vision, touch, and technique, so I like him driving the play.  You're probably fine with a DM-D which I did use a lot as well.  If your DM is a stronger tackler a DM role might also work better as they tend to tackle harder I find.

If I want a stronger defensive shape I'll use a DM-D though honestly it's more because the DM role tends to be more conservative offensively.

I've been experimenting with moving the DLP to CM strata to break down some of the buses I go up against.  I don't have enough examples to know if it's a for sure, but I find the role has slightly more aggressive mentality when in CM strata and by virtue of setting up in the CM strata, creates a bit more width among those players both offensively and defensively.  At least in my limited observations.  I do feel it places some risk for counters though so important to keep an eye open on whether or not your defensive line looks exposed.

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1 hour ago, alanschu14 said:

The players play through the DLP more (which supports my understanding that playmakers are treated this way by the match engine).  Though I think this might now be a "not always good" thing because a few teams have been super successful parking the bus on me haha.  My DM player is also a magnificent passer with great vision, touch, and technique, so I like him driving the play.  You're probably fine with a DM-D which I did use a lot as well.  If your DM is a stronger tackler a DM role might also work better as they tend to tackle harder I find.

If I want a stronger defensive shape I'll use a DM-D though honestly it's more because the DM role tends to be more conservative offensively.

I've been experimenting with moving the DLP to CM strata to break down some of the buses I go up against.  I don't have enough examples to know if it's a for sure, but I find the role has slightly more aggressive mentality when in CM strata and by virtue of setting up in the CM strata, creates a bit more width among those players both offensively and defensively.  At least in my limited observations.  I do feel it places some risk for counters though so important to keep an eye open on whether or not your defensive line looks exposed.

So essentially against defensive teams, having the playmaker in the CM strata as opposed to the AM strata means he can conduct play/start attacks from a deeper position and potentially make better use of the flanks? Plus the additional benefit of an increase in mentality so a more expansive passing range?

Also, how do the BBM work for you in midfield? Do they close down the flanks as well as BWM's or just CM's on support?

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28 minutes ago, jc577 said:

So essentially against defensive teams, having the playmaker in the CM strata as opposed to the AM strata means he can conduct play/start attacks from a deeper position and potentially make better use of the flanks? Plus the additional benefit of an increase in mentality so a more expansive passing range?

Yeah I find it's another body getting a bit more up the field and since I typically have an excellent passer in the role, hoping to have better success breaking down the defense and to sit a bit more forward while on defense to help with transitions too.

29 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Also, how do the BBM work for you in midfield? Do they close down the flanks as well as BWM's or just CM's on support?

Mine do okay, but they also have excellent mentals. Work Rate is like 18 for my two starters (and like 13-15 for others), Team Work is 15+, and Determination is typically 15+ (one is a wonderkid and my all around best player too).  I don't find my flanks overly exposed. I will sometimes pull my fullbacks to a support role if I'm playing the huge Man U/Real Madrid type of teams (or shift my whole mentality to counter/defensive).

Before I had this player I ran my playmaker (for better or worse, I do like to take advantage of playmaker roles and almost always have one, which may be a fault on my part hahaha) from this strata and my DM was often a BWM or DM-D/S.

 

 

Other things I did just for my own context was shorten down the passing and up the tempo one tick.  I drop the D-line back one notch but also add close down more so I don't concede too much space before pressing.  The idea is to move the ball quickly among the diamond, looking to hit my strikers for opportunities. the BBM midfielders sometimes take advantage of players out of position to overlap and the full backs provide some width once the defense starts to collapse to the middle.

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All in all it's going pretty well.. i've settled on using a DLP at DM as this helps to better control games whilst still looking to move the ball forward with purpose, i'm seeing the ball played through midfield which I like. However, a lot of our attacks are coming from the full-backs (which makes sense seen as they're both on attack), and ideally I'd like to penetrate centrally, making use of quick one-twos to open up the opposition. The midfield is also a bit of a concern.. defensively we're sound but they're contributing nothing in terms of goals and assists.. Pogba only has 2 and we're in January :( I'm thinking of maybe turning him into a CM-A, with Miki shifting to an AM-S in thehope that they switch positions during transitions, and Miki can play Pogba in... Any suggestions?

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5 hours ago, jc577 said:

All in all it's going pretty well.. i've settled on using a DLP at DM as this helps to better control games whilst still looking to move the ball forward with purpose, i'm seeing the ball played through midfield which I like. However, a lot of our attacks are coming from the full-backs (which makes sense seen as they're both on attack), and ideally I'd like to penetrate centrally, making use of quick one-twos to open up the opposition. The midfield is also a bit of a concern.. defensively we're sound but they're contributing nothing in terms of goals and assists.. Pogba only has 2 and we're in January :( I'm thinking of maybe turning him into a CM-A, with Miki shifting to an AM-S in thehope that they switch positions during transitions, and Miki can play Pogba in... Any suggestions?

I have always loved watching the CM(a) role. They can get hot and really carry a team for weeks. With Pogba, I would give him an RPM(s) or CM(a) duty, if only because it would be fun to see what he can do. I would also stick with an A(d), HB(d), or DM(d) behind him, especially since the fullbacks are adventurous.

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30 minutes ago, Overmars said:

I have always loved watching the CM(a) role. They can get hot and really carry a team for weeks. With Pogba, I would give him an RPM(s) or CM(a) duty, if only because it would be fun to see what he can do. I would also stick with an A(d), HB(d), or DM(d) behind him, especially since the fullbacks are adventurous.

Honestly it's been my favourite role in the game this year; a player with the right combination of attributes and ppm's in this position is an absolute beast. That's a good point you make about the full-backs, will change the DLP to a HB. However I still want a playmaker in midfield, gives us that bit more control seeing as i've used no possession or build-up instructions whatsoever.. maybe Herrera can be a DLP on the right side of the diamond?

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Swap Pogba and Herrera sides over. Pogba CM(A) and Herrera DLP(s). Then turn Valencia into a support duty (he can't cross anyway so don't really need him bombing up the flank. So basically Pogba will bomb forward but Valencia will offer protection. And on the other side Shaw will bomb forward but Herrera will offer protection. 

Edited by NabsKebabs

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2 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

Swap Pogba and Herrera sides over. Pogba CM(A) and Herrera DLP(s). Then turn Valencia into a support duty (he can't cross anyway so don't really need him bombing up the flank. So basically Pogba will bomb forward but Valencia will offer protection. And on the other side Shaw will bomb forward but Herrera will offer protection. 

Good suggestion :thup: the only issue could be that Pogba is surging into the same space the DLF is dropping into so could cause congestion, but i'll have to see how it goes in-game. What about Miki's role would you change that?

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5 hours ago, jc577 said:

Good suggestion :thup: the only issue could be that Pogba is surging into the same space the DLF is dropping into so could cause congestion, but i'll have to see how it goes in-game. What about Miki's role would you change that?

Yeah I also thought of that. You will have to watch how Lukaku/Pogba link up. If it looks to congested, simply swap the strikers over. 

With Mkhi, I wouldn't have him as a playmaker, he isn't that good technically. I would have him as an AM(A) because he has good acceleration and off the ball. AM(s) might be a bit more suited to your set up though. 

Edited by NabsKebabs

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I actually think Mata AP(s) would be more suited to your setup than Mkhitaryan. If you make the changes I suggested he would perfect as the playmaker to link the midfield and attack, 

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19 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

Yeah I also thought of that. You will have to watch how Lukaku/Pogba link up. If it looks to congested, simply swap the strikers over. 

With Mkhi, I wouldn't have him as a playmaker, he isn't that good technically. I would have him as an AM(A) because he has good acceleration and off the ball. AM(s) might be a bit more suited to your set up though. 

 

16 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

I actually think Mata AP(s) would be more suited to your setup than Mkhitaryan. If you make the changes I suggested he would perfect as the playmaker to link the midfield and attack, 

Yeah Miki does lack some key attributes to be the sides main playmaker, but he's got 5 goals and 15 assists in 29 league games so I can't really complain. Perhaps when Miki plays I use him as an AM-A and Pogba as a RPM, and then switch to an AP-s for Mata with Pogba reverting back to a CMa?

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So Lukaku is out injured for the rest of the season.. which leaves me with Ibra, Martial and Rashford. Ideally I want to use the latter two up front as Ibra really slows play down, but neither are suited to being the creative forward, any ideas?

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16 hours ago, jc577 said:

So Lukaku is out injured for the rest of the season.. which leaves me with Ibra, Martial and Rashford. Ideally I want to use the latter two up front as Ibra really slows play down, but neither are suited to being the creative forward, any ideas?

Out of curiosity, why do you think Martial isn't suited to being a creative forward? And why would Lukaku be a better creative forward than Martial?

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Out of curiosity, why do you think Martial isn't suited to being a creative forward? And why would Lukaku be a better creative forward than Martial?

Because Martial has 11 for passing and 10 for vision, whilst he has other attributes (Balance, Dribbling, Agility) arguably these two I see as being the most important. It's a bit of a toss up between the two but Lukaku has 19 for strength which @Rashidi said is the first thing he looks for in a DLF.

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7 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Because Martial has 11 for passing and 10 for vision, whilst he has other attributes (Balance, Dribbling, Agility) arguably these two I see as being the most important. It's a bit of a toss up between the two but Lukaku has 19 for strength which @Rashidi said is the first thing he looks for in a DLF.

You seem to be basing it then on 1 person preferring 1 attribute. This is the problem with guides too. People read one thing, so that's the only thing that can work.

What's Martial's Strength? And have you though about what he could bring to the table, rather than just standing there using strength? He's much more mobile, with the ball control to back it up. Does he really need to have Lukaku's strength or is he good enough to hold the ball despite not being that strong?

And if you do rule out Martial, I'm sure you have other players who could still do a job there. I'm just saying - think about things.

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9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You seem to be basing it then on 1 person preferring 1 attribute. This is the problem with guides too. People read one thing, so that's the only thing that can work.

What's Martial's Strength? And have you though about what he could bring to the table, rather than just standing there using strength? He's much more mobile, with the ball control to back it up. Does he really need to have Lukaku's strength or is he good enough to hold the ball despite not being that strong?

And if you do rule out Martial, I'm sure you have other players who could still do a job there. I'm just saying - think about things.

It's not just strength i'm basing it on - it's a combination of factors. 

Martial has good strength, around 14 which coupled with good balance, dribbling etc makes him a good candidate for the F9 role as the creative forward, however with passing of 11 and vision of 10 is he really going to be able to bring others into the game? 

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3 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Martial has good strength, around 14 which coupled with good balance, dribbling etc makes him a good candidate for the F9 role as the creative forward, however with passing of 11 and vision of 10 is he really going to be able to bring others into the game? 

Okay, so you say he's a good false 9. What does a false 9 do, what are the key attributes for a false 9 and the Player Instructions that go with it? A false 9 (you can read the description) is similar to an attacking midfielder or playmaker. He needs Vision and Passing too. He's asked to play Risky Passes. All things a creative forward does. So why are you willing to think of him as a false 9, but he couldn't possibly be a DLF?

Or why not change him to a F9 then? Or use someone else (ruling out Martial and Rashford) as the creative striker, as I said?

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10 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Okay, so you say he's a good false 9. What does a false 9 do, what are the key attributes for a false 9 and the Player Instructions that go with it? A false 9 (you can read the description) is similar to an attacking midfielder or playmaker. He needs Vision and Passing too. He's asked to play Risky Passes. All things a creative forward does. So why are you willing to think of him as a false 9, but he couldn't possibly be a DLF?

Or why not change him to a F9 then? Or use someone else (ruling out Martial and Rashford) as the creative striker, as I said?

Sorry if i was unclear in my previous post; what I meant was that he has pretty much all the key attributes to play as either a DLF or F9 except the two most important - vision and passing. I was just pointing out that he has good balance, dribbling etc which is what a F9 needs, but he just can't play those through passes. 

To be honest the only other players I could use in the position is Mata and Ibra, both of which lack pace which goes against how i'm trying to play. 

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16 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Sorry if i was unclear in my previous post; what I meant was that he has pretty much all the key attributes to play as either a DLF or F9 except the two most important - vision and passing. I was just pointing out that he has good balance, dribbling etc which is what a F9 needs, but he just can't play those through passes. 

To be honest the only other players I could use in the position is Mata and Ibra, both of which lack pace which goes against how i'm trying to play. 

I'm trying to get you out of this box you put yourself in though. Why "can't" he play through passes? He won't see all the options that a Vision 18 player would, but he will see options. What if he (being different from the average DLF) doesn't just draw in his own marker to create space, but actually skips past him, drawing another defender, opening huge gaps? In those huge gaps, you don't need to squeeze a pass through the eye of a needle. You don't need to have the best Vision in the world. It's easy and it's apparent. You just need someone to pass it. I'm not saying you have to use him, but think about these things a bit. Is it the perfect solution? No, probably not, but that's why you had Lukaku. He's injured now, so you need to act.

On the other hand (if you rule out Martial) you have the entire Man Utd squad, but you only look at Mata or Ibra? What about Pogba, for instance? Or did you create this tactic with the intention of using Lukaku in every single game because no one could also play in his position?

Edited by HUNT3R

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9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm trying to get you out of this box you put yourself in though. Why "can't" he play through passes? He won't see all the options that a Vision 18 player would, but he will see options. What if he (being different from the average DLF) doesn't just draw in his own marker to create space, but actually skips past him, drawing another defender, opening huge gaps? In those huge gaps, you don't need to squeeze a pass through the eye of a needle. You don't need to have the best Vision in the world. It's easy and it's apparent. You just need someone to pass it.

And you have the entire Man Utd squad, but you only look at Mata or Ibra? What about Pogba, for instance? Or did you create this tactic with the intention of using Lukaku in every single game because no one could also play in his position?

That's fair enough I see where you're coming from now. I've just always assumed that a DLF would need at least 14 for passing and vision, but i guess it's not as black and white as that. 

When I created the tactic Ibra was still injured for 4-5 months so I could only rotate between Rashford, Martial and Lukaku. I disabled the window as I was playing with the updates - Pogba has to play in CM as he and Herrera are the only midfielders with acceleration over 10 (I wish i was joking) which is needed to cover the flanks.

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I have edited my post a little, FWIW, but the thing is, you're fine with Lakaku  -  you don't have him now. You are going to need to play someone else there, just until he's back. Look at the options you have. Chances are that no one will be a like for like replacement. One lacks the Pace. The other lacks Strength. The other lacks Vision/Passing. Might even be worth checking out the next opposition every game to see who the likely match up will be and pick a DLF who you think will get the upper hand against that defender.

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