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Guest El Payaso

This is why I don't like the newgens

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Just now, El Payaso said:

Exactly. I think that there should be lot more of those players who are not willing or don't have the 'genes' to develop strong physicals like so many players that play in La Liga do. The list of skillful and intelligent but physically lacking midfielders or wingers is really long in the beginning of the game but the game doesn't seem to produce those kind of players, especially if they have high PA. Physical attributes should be a lot 'harder' to train but currently it seems that they just automatically grow as automatically as other attributes and even some 15-year-old (and small size) players already have quite high ones compared to real life players straight when they appear. 

I just cant get my head around that Tottenham goal keeper screen shot and imagining him in the field would make me terrified to the core for the strikers or forwards rushing towards him. 

6'4 Height and 19 Strength. You will feel like a Rock ahead instead of person

Coming back to Point. I agree we surely need to have restrictions so that after some point the Physicals shouldn't be improved and only decreased as the Time passes by and the Age factor kicking in. 

 

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Guest El Payaso
1 minute ago, ferrarinseb said:

Coming back to Point. I agree we surely need to have restrictions so that after some point the Physicals shouldn't be improved and only decreased as the Time passes by and the Age factor kicking in. 

Yes like what happened with Aguero (well between FM versions at least). 

And the best player in PL currently:

David-Silva.png

Certainly not strong physically. Not finding a SC of Silva from FM 2005-07 but I doubt that his physicals have raised at all from those years compared to current. A great example of a player that never has the genetics or will to develop into a 5'8'' Hulk. 

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1 minute ago, El Payaso said:

Yes like what happened with Aguero (well between FM versions at least). 

And the best player in PL currently:

David-Silva.png

Certainly not strong physically. Not finding a SC of Silva from FM 2005-07 but I doubt that his physicals have raised at all from those years compared to current. A great example of a player that never has the genetics or will to develop into a 5'8'' Hulk. 

This is really how it should be having the ability to do some thing in his zone rather than being the Hulk every where. I think right now we don't need to add any more about the issue the Screen shots says all what's wrong and what needs to be done. The Major obstacle is how to achieve the parity so that we wont see Hulks at every where. 

 

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2 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

@Seb Wassell do you have any opinions on these? 

I believe I contributed earlier in this thread. My thoughts have not changed unless there is something new here?

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Guest El Payaso
8 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

I believe I contributed earlier in this thread. My thoughts have not changed unless there is something new here?

Well not much new, just a statement that things look quite much the same in FM 2018. Hopefully this can change in the future especially in terms of how physical attributes develop or more likely not develop for some players...

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Yeah I definetly think that this should be addressed because in my save I have noticed that basically EVERY newgen has acceleration and pace of 15+

Also I think that there should be trends in attributes for particular places e.g  Spanish players would be good technically but not so strong physically and Brazilian players should have good flair and dribbling etc

(obviously it shouldn't apply with all players)

Honestly I think this should be addressed because it makes the game too easy in future years and their attributes are unrealistically high 

 

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1 hour ago, Fmplaya said:

Also I think that there should be trends in attributes for particular places e.g  Spanish players would be good technically but not so strong physically and Brazilian players should have good flair and dribbling etc

 

This already happens and has done for many years.

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15 minutes ago, Woodg SI said:

This already happens and has done for many years.

The myriad of 5'8" central defenders in Mexico wave hello.

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56 minutes ago, Woodg SI said:

This already happens and has done for many years.

Oh I never realised that

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3 hours ago, Bigpapa42 said:

The myriad of 5'8" central defenders in Mexico wave hello.

Although the average height of a Mexican male is 1.67, the average height from our database of a Mexican DC is 1.81cm (the average height across the database is 1.83cm for DCs).

Is the 1.73 height that you see there for Newgens? If these are 16/17 year olds it is not far off if they continue to grow a few centimetres .

Anyway - I'll get this looked into if there is actually a problem, on average, for fully grown Mexican DCs being under the expected average height.

 

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10 minutes ago, Woodg SI said:

Although the average height of a Mexican male is 1.67, the average height from our database of a Mexican DC is 1.81cm (the average height across the database is 1.83cm for DCs).

Is the 1.73 height that you see there for Newgens? If these are 16/17 year olds it is not far off if they continue to grow a few centimetres .

Anyway - I'll get this looked into if there is actually a problem, on average, for fully grown Mexican DCs being under the expected average height.

Oh, I wasn't presenting it as a concern. And I haven't researched it at all. It always just seemed to me that Mexico seems to have more first-division caliber central defenders that are well below six feet compared to other nations. They certain exist elsewhere, too. I've had that impression about Mexico even before I managed there in FM and managing there hasn't lessened it. Plenty of short newgens in Mexico on FM18, but they can be for almost any position, not just DC. And some will grow. I will pay attention in the next few Liga MX saves I run but I don't think its an abnormal issue. I actually feel like some shorter DCs coming thru stays true to the original data.

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In game what attributes are often effected by the weight of the player . Agility /strength/ stamina any thing else than to these

I also want to know is it possible to ask a player to loose his weight? Recent examples Luke shaw at United he lost his weight to become fit.  

 

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It is important to remember the distinction between the Newgen and Training modules here. Often a perceived issue with newgen generation is actually an issue with training, for example perhaps it is not the case that too many physically adept newgens are being produced but that too many newgens are improving their physicals through training; it is certainly the case that the User will often prioritise physical development over technical/mental, which can lead to a slight disparity in ones own club at least.

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12 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

It is important to remember the distinction between the Newgen and Training modules here. Often a perceived issue with newgen generation is actually an issue with training, for example perhaps it is not the case that too many physically adept newgens are being produced but that too many newgens are improving their physicals through training; it is certainly the case that the User will often prioritise physical development over technical/mental, which can lead to a slight disparity in ones own club at least.

than something  in the player development mechanism still needs to be changed. maybe different CA demands for physical attributes based on physical capabilities and not only position. if currently two strikers, one is 160 m tall and one is 1.95 m tall, require 1 CA point too increase every physical attribute by 1,and they both reach 200 CA, than why shouldn't they both reach 20 agility? why shouldn't the only physical difference between them be jumping reach (that is set to a maximum point for the shorter player)?obviously this is an amplified example.think about it like that:if a player has physical soft limits,set by his childhood training and nutrition (pre-game-generation),genetics and epigenetics,than he will require more work to improve and maintain physical attributes when he reaches that limit.maybe that's a work he is happy and capable of doing,but maybe he is unprofessional and isn't very keen on extra physical training and on living a healthier lifestyle.maybe the extra training makes his muscles tired,meaning he loses other physical qualities.maybe the extra training is so demanding he misses general training because of tiredness or lack of time.I mean,you can't train three times per day mid-season,avoid fatigue and injuries,and still keep your day job,right?and all of that so you will improve your 100 m time by 0.05 sec?

a player at my height may react better to jumping training than i do.that alone doesn't necessarily mean i can't have my jumping reach as good as his,but that means i will have to work much harder than him,maybe to the point that i must have a full volleyball player training routine to maintain my jumping alone,neglecting other aspects of my game,while hoping my natural fitness is good enough for my muscles to still get to matches at 92+% condition. i think that this difference between us can be reflected by different CA demands for our physical attributes set by in game (weight height fitness) and pre-game (generated ability of physical attributes and the CA demands differences) factors other than the current position\position training\pa\height for JR,so that for some players physical attributes will be harder to improve and maintain after a certain point,making them more successful at and perhaps likely to (depends on man management abilities,an old school english manager might have forced 16 years old silva to hit the gym and never come back to training until he can out push the team's CB) train other attributes.that will make 20 strength for a light player practically,though not theoretically,impossible.

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2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

It is important to remember the distinction between the Newgen and Training modules here. Often a perceived issue with newgen generation is actually an issue with training, for example perhaps it is not the case that too many physically adept newgens are being produced but that too many newgens are improving their physicals through training; it is certainly the case that the User will often prioritise physical development over technical/mental, which can lead to a slight disparity in ones own club at least.

Please can you clarify this?

 

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Guest El Payaso
2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

It is important to remember the distinction between the Newgen and Training modules here. Often a perceived issue with newgen generation is actually an issue with training, for example perhaps it is not the case that too many physically adept newgens are being produced but that too many newgens are improving their physicals through training; it is certainly the case that the User will often prioritise physical development over technical/mental, which can lead to a slight disparity in ones own club at least.

I think that in many cases the starting attributes are not an issue, yes. Okay there are cases where really small players have straight from the beginning all physicals in decent level while something like Charly Musonda at the age of 16:

Kuvahaun tulos haulle charly musonda fm 15

could be closer to the truth. This is of course really hard to balance I give you that. 

But Musonda is also an example of a player that will never be physically strong and in my experience the newgens automatically start growing physically really fast even with just role training. It seems too automatic that they are able to develop physically and none of them seems to be 'limited' physically. 

Kuvahaun tulos haulle cesc fabregas fm 2005

In real life for example Cesc never improved from this point that much if we trust on FM's attributes throughout the years. 

Kuvahaun tulos haulle cesc fabregas fm 2012

Especially pace and strength should be attributes that are really hard and even unlikely to improve too much.

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There being too many small players with high Strength is a known issue.

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On 10/09/2017 at 06:31, turnip said:

Your argument appears to rely on a facet of the game (newgens) that you admit yourself you don't really engage with. So there's something wrong with your reasoning straight away, but I'll indulge you anyway, because I'm drunk.

You argue that 'Physicals are stronger than mentals , which are bad'. Well, good newgens tend to have good physical attributes while bad newgens tend to have bad physical attributes. Is it possible that the newgens you're seeing are simply the good ones (i.e. the players your scouts would identify, not the crap ones they'd ignore) and therefore the ones who are most likely to have good physical attributes?

This feeds into your second point, about there being no 'weak' Physical players in the game world. I could point out literally hundreds of 'physically weak' players in my current save. But I won't. Because they're not 'good' players. Because most 'good' players have good physical attributes... because they're 'good'. And so, they appear in the best teams in the world. There are buckets of 'good' central defenders with bad Jumping Reach, mind you. But if you're complaining about there being no players with bad Physical attributes, you're either in a top league (and, therefore, facing 'good' players regularly), or you're in a lower league and just completely blind.

On to your third point. And yes, it would be nice if we could find a player on FM with the 'technical' skills of Iniesta. But if we did, there would be complaints about BUGS!!! because of the amount of time the player would spend on the floor, screaming about a foul that never happened. I would also point out that Xavi, at his best, had exceptional Stamina and would be at least 95% as good in the 90th minute as he was in the first, so your point doesn't really stand anyway. It is, in fact, very possible to develop a player with crap Physical attributes and great Technical attributes, but since they'd be useless in a top-tier league, I'm not sure why you'd bother, other than to make a stupid point on a forum.

his actual point is how many players irl can you find having 17+ strength but height less than 5'8" in top 5 leagues? In gaming world you will find 5 times more players than irl. Overall distribution of attributes of fm17 has been bad but I still play it. I'm currently playing my 40th season and despite this uneven attribute distribution I love this game but still his point stands which I don't like at all!

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Not entirely sure why this thread from two years ago got promoted, but still feel like using it to point out that excessive strength growth was regarded as a known issue in FM17 and it's still here in FM19...

Perhaps it's the same problem but for totally different reasons, especially given all the intervening changes to player development. My players complain about too much strength training quite frequently, even when they're on vanilla schedules, don't have extra training scheduled or a role that develops strength and don't have any other training issues. Perhaps there's a parameter in there that's set wrong?

 

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On 27/03/2019 at 16:07, enigmatic said:

Not entirely sure why this thread from two years ago got promoted, but still feel like using it to point out that excessive strength growth was regarded as a known issue in FM17 and it's still here in FM19...

Perhaps it's the same problem but for totally different reasons, especially given all the intervening changes to player development. My players complain about too much strength training quite frequently, even when they're on vanilla schedules, don't have extra training scheduled or a role that develops strength and don't have any other training issues. Perhaps there's a parameter in there that's set wrong?

 

not only excessive strength growth but overall physicality. I can single out many players who are AMs with 18+ Agility and Balance but less than 10 dribbling. It is just an example of how bad the attribute distribution is in FM17, I don't play FM19 but if it still exists developers need to take a long hard look at this.

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