Fix the game, please!! (I can no longer enjoy it, and it makes me sad)

[Muja]

47 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

Contte did change last season, from something more like a 4-1-4-1 to the 3-4-3 you mentioned

Yeah, when he hadn't find the team's identity yet. He was struggling at first, too.
Then he changed to 3-4-3 and consistently won, to the point that he won, like, 12 consecutive matches if I remember correctly?

Isn't that a good proof?
 

47 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

that being said, since winning the league he has lost 2 finals, hardly a dominant unbreakable system

Yeah, by playing both matches in 10 vs 11. Many things come into play in real life soccer. Bad form, players disunity, new transfers, simply luck, all of these can affect the start of a new season. And I'm delighted they affect the game in FM too, I would never suggest to change that.

I won't be surprised if he'll change the team shape again this year. 
It doesn't change the fact that the best way to be succesfull is to find a system that works most times depending on the players you have, and then you stick with it.
Small changes during games or for particularly difficult matches are allowed, of course.

But really, you're looking for consistency. 

 

47 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

history is full of changes and revolutions in football. from the Scottish cheating and starting to pass the ball, to Italian teams ruining all the fun and using sweepers. sweeper keepers that excite, to midfielders that are too good to break a sweat and dictate play without leaving the center circle

And tiki-taka is another revolution that FM needs to aknowledge, too. In modern football possession of the ball is the key.

47 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

then you have the players that are almost god like... if you play a 3-4-3 against a player like Suarez for instance, you do not have enough men back before he even thinks about passing the ball.

That's irrilevant if your tactics let you dominate the midfield. If you can do that, Suarez will touch very few balls, even against a three-men defense line. It's all about HOW you intend to control the midfield.

That's what Del Bosque's meant. The reporters had asked him: "How will you stop Ronaldo?" and he said "If we keep the ball, they can't score". Meaning they didn't have to defend against him because Spain dominated the match.

 

47 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

If someone were to call it "defensive", I wouldn't necessarily disagree. I'd call it risk-free or something similar. Keeping the ball so that the opposition cannot get it, "resting" in possession to save energy for closing down without the ball, safe passes to feet, forward runs only at the right times etc. These are all elements of safety.

I understand where such a thought is coming from, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's defensive.

Simply because being safe doesn't mean you're not attacking. On the contrary, you have the ball, you make it move as you want, you're ALWAYS attacking. Just patiently.

And I'd certainly expect such a style from the "control" mentality, not the counter one.. "Control" should be about slow, safe passes in the initial build-up and quick creative passes (or one-twos) and lots of movements in the final third.

Things that at the moment you can only obtain by tweaking one of the two mentalities A LOT and often with contradicting results.

[asdpoo]

Aaaahh... Sliders are the answer! I understand SI wanted a more human interface, but there were one or two FMs where sliders were still visible along with the "shouts/instructions" system. I've no idea why they completely removed them. They were really helpful to figure out what different instructions do exactly (FM is vague).  They let you change only a single parameter (like mentality) without messing up EVERYTHING (as you say in the original post).

[herne79]

57 minutes ago, Muja said:

What I'm saying is that this has created a lot of confusions in the forums too.

We know.  Many people have been saying this for a long time.  If you read any of the tactical guides we have over in the Tactics forum it's talked about there.  I'm hoping SI will change it for FM18, but I've been hoping that for each iteration as well.  We can but hope.

57 minutes ago, Muja said:

Here, tiki taka's style is considered "defensive" because that's how it can (almost) be recreated inside a videogame.

Totally disagree.  It's just as possible to set up a low possession based system using the Defensive mentality as it is to get high possession. 

If you want to create a tiki taka style using the Defensive mentality you can.  If you want to create it using the Attacking mentality you can do that as well.  Or anything in between.  What it all boils down to is simply how you choose to set things up.

3 minutes ago, Muja said:

And I'd certainly expect such a style from the "control" mentality, not the counter one.. "Control" should be about slow, safe passes in the initial build-up and quick creative passes (or one-twos) and lots of movements in the final third.

Things that at the moment you can only obtain by tweaking one of the two mentalities A LOT and often with contradicting results.

See above.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, Muja said:

I understand where such a thought is coming from, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's defensive.

Simply because being safe doesn't mean you're not attacking. On the contrary, you have the ball, you make it move as you want, you're ALWAYS attacking. Just patiently.

And I'd certainly expect such a style from the "control" mentality, not the counter one.. "Control" should be about slow, safe passes in the initial build-up and quick creative passes (or one-twos) and lots of movements in the final third.

Things that at the moment you can only obtain by tweaking one of the two mentalities A LOT and often with contradicting results.

The last match I played was on Counter. We had 25+ shots and scored 5 or 6. It certainly wasn't defensive. It was, however, free of too many risk taking decisions.

I've said that it depends on how you set up. It's not about "if you select Counter, you will be defensive". Roles and duties will decide that too.
 

Even if you see it as Contain being the most defensive and Overload the most attacking, so with smaller teams, select Defensive or Counter and the bigger teams Attacking or Control, you can and there's nothing wrong with playing that way. In fact, I think most people probably do anyway. I'd class attacking tactics using Defend or Counter Mentality as thinking out of the box. It is a shame that it's not more common knowledge, but it is what it is currently.

[HUNT3R]

11 minutes ago, Muja said:

"Control" should be about slow, safe passes in the initial build-up and quick creative passes (or one-twos) and lots of movements in the final third.

Just to pick up on this, in a way it is already. Control has fairly short passing at the back, to keep possession/control, but also (as it is a fairly attacking Mentality) it is fairly direct up front so that (paired with the more adventurous thinking) it is more aggressive. Attacking is another step up where it's even shorter at the back and more direct up front.

[Muja]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I've said that it depends on how you set up. It's not about "if you select Counter, you will be defensive".
I'd class attacking tactics using Defend or Counter Mentality as thinking out of the box. It is a shame that it's not more common knowledge, but it is what it is currently.

And that's really how it should be, and I'm happy to know that now.

They should really just call it "risk mentality" and let it change JUST that parameter.

Let "counter" and "control" be tactical styles that you can setup with any kind of "risk mentality", because they're not strictly related.

[Muja]

7 minutes ago, asdpoo said:

Aaaahh... Sliders are the answer! I understand SI wanted a more human interface, but there were one or two FMs where sliders were still visible along with the "shouts/instructions" system. I've no idea why they completely removed them. They were really helpful to figure out what different instructions do exactly (FM is vague).  They let you change only a single parameter (like mentality) without messing up EVERYTHING (as you say in the original post).

I wouldn't say we need to go back to sliders. Sliders are just ONE way to show you and let you interact with the game's parameters.

They can still use words.

What really matters is how much user-friendly the interface is, and how much freedom it allows you.

Changing one parameter at a time would certainly be a BIG improvement. Explaining what each parameter exactly does, and what are its advantages and disadvantages, is the best way to make the player understand the game and enjoy it and learn from his mistakes by experimenting. 

Giving misleading descriptions should be avoided at all cost and I can't really understand how could SI let that happen.

[Muja]

11 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Just to pick up on this, in a way it is already. Control has fairly short passing at the back, to keep possession/control, but also (as it is a fairly attacking Mentality) it is fairly direct up front so that (paired with the more adventurous thinking) it is more aggressive. Attacking is another step up where it's even shorter at the back and more direct up front.

Yeah, but the tactics creator really won't let you specify that you want slow tempo in the beginning and a quicker tempo in the final third, for example
(Or if it does, I just don't know how to do it and I'd be grateful if anyone could explain it to me)

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Muja said:

Yeah, but the tactics creator really won't let you specify that you want slow tempo in the beginning and a quicker tempo in the final third.
Or if it do, I just don't know how to do it and I'd be grateful if anyone could explain it to me.

As an aside, define tempo?

In FM, tempo has always been a team instruction. You've never been able to split it like this. Correct me if I'm wrong?

[AngelMatrix23]

I believe that FM is the most awesome game I have ever played. Always open, always playing.

But after some years of experience with your games I personally believe that FM17 is the worst of all. 

I have a lot of games going on but the one I am playing right now with West Ham it frustrates me so much that it crosses my mind to stop playing.

It is unbelievable that when we play away from home we play so good like it is our home. But it only takes one single shot on goal from any opponent in order to score while I have to make 15 or more shots ON GOAL. This is something that has been going on in all of my five seasons a West Ham. I am pretty sure that this is a match engine issue. I cannot explain this any other way, or maybe you can because it makes me feel an idiot that I went to buy the game in the first place.

[Muja]

1 minute ago, AngelMatrix23 said:

I believe that FM is the most awesome game I have ever played. Always open, always playing.

But after some years of experience with your games I personally believe that FM17 is the worst of all. 

I have a lot of games going on but the one I am playing right now with West Ham it frustrates me so much that it crosses my mind to stop playing.

It is unbelievable that when we play away from home we play so good like it is our home. But it only takes one single shot on goal from any opponent in order to score while I have to make 15 or more shots ON GOAL. This is something that has been going on in all of my five seasons a West Ham. I am pretty sure that this is a match engine issue. I cannot explain this any other way, or maybe you can because it makes me feel an idiot that I went to buy the game in the first place.

After spending much time on FM since 2015, this happens precisely because the opponents are sitting deeper. And you're probably trying to penetrate the box from the center.
I can tell, without looking at other stats, that you made 15 shots on target, yes, but most of them were long shots. You can confirm this in the more detailed stats panel, and in player and team analysis.
Long shots are simply more easy to catch for the goalkeep. They're not clear cut chances, which are the ones you're trying to create.

That happens because the game assumes that a deep lying defense leaves no space for through balls behind it, when it's really not true in reality.
Unless "through balls" means something different from what I know.


But back to the topic, this kind of comments like the one by AngelMatrix, here, are getting more and more common. Players no longer understand the game, and you can't fault the players! It's obviously a design problem!

 

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Define tempo?

In FM, tempo has always been a team instruction. You've never been able to split it like this. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Yeah, but maybe it's time that it COULD be split like this. I want my team to play differently in various phases of the game. 

"Tempo" is the speed with which the players are supposed to make a decision. I want my defenders to play calmly and to build up slowly, and in the final third I want my offensive players to break the opponents defense with quick, short passes and lots of movements (one-twos).

So it's not the passes range that should change. It's really tempo.

This is "modern football" and is going to become more and more common in real life, too. How can I do it in FM?

If it isn't possibile to do, then maybe it's time to change the Tactics Creator so it's possible?

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, AngelMatrix23 said:

I am pretty sure that this is a match engine issue. I cannot explain this any other way, or maybe you can because it makes me feel an idiot that I went to buy the game in the first place.

The same bug you thought was in FM16 too, when you had that poor tactical setup?

If you want help on the game, the tactical forum is there. It seems like you tried to be too attacking with a poor setup, because your shots to shots on target ratio is extremely poor.

There are plenty of people who go on big winning runs, so it's not the game.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Muja said:

"Tempo" is the speed with which the players are supposed to make a decision. I want my defenders to play calmly and to build up slowly, and in the final third I want my offensive players to break the opponents defense with quick, short passes and lots of movements (one-twos).

And this doesn't happen to your satisfaction on, say, a Control Mentality?

[herne79]

10 minutes ago, AngelMatrix23 said:

It is unbelievable that when we play away from home we play so good like it is our home.

Just like real life.  Except this season where we can't play away either .

Anyway, are you really doing that badly if you have the likes of Alaba, Odegaard, Casemiro, Rulli etc in your side?  Unlikely that such high profile players would join a struggling team.

But as ever, if you or anyone have specific tactical issues you should head over to the Tactics & Training forum.

3 minutes ago, Muja said:

this happens precisely because the opponents are sitting deeper.

 

3 minutes ago, Muja said:

That happens because the game assumes that a deep lying defense leaves no space for through balls behind it, when it's really not true in reality.
Unless "through balls" means something different from what I know.

Again no, not necessarily.  But I'm repeating myself because you're either not listening, understanding or just dismissing.  I'll bow out here.

[asdpoo]

36 minutes ago, Muja said:

I wouldn't say we need to go back to sliders. Sliders are just ONE way to show you and let you interact with the game's parameters.

Not going back to sliders, going back to when we had both - current and slider UI! There was no downside to having more options you can safely ignore. Then SI removed the slider UI, limiting our control. I'm still baffled.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, asdpoo said:

Not going back to sliders, going back to when we had both! There was no downside to having more options you can safely ignore. Then SI removed the slider UI, limiting our control. I'm still baffled.

Definitely not. SI have shown that it's possible to illustrate some of these tactical ideas with better graphics than a simple slider. We need more of them and the explanations improved. Doing all of that on a user friendly UI capable of being displayed on small resolutions as well as higher resolutions etc is the challenge.

[Muja]

23 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

And this doesn't happen to your satisfaction on, say, a Control Mentality?

... No? 
Especially, for the life of me, I can't understand how I can tell my players to do more one-twos in front of the box to destabilize the opponent's defense.

How is that done, tactically?
 

17 minutes ago, asdpoo said:

Not going back to sliders, going back to when we had both! There was no downside to having more options you can safely ignore. Then they removed them, limiting our control. I'm still baffled.

I think the answer is this:
 

On 5/9/2017 at 15:27, MBarbaric said:

If I remember well, the TC was introduced to bring the game more in line with real football terminology and to allow the AI to compete with a human player on a more level ground (hence the rigidity).

It's a bit like saying: "the AI is not good enough so we have to limit the player, to prevent him from winning too much". Limiting the player's freedom is always a very bad decision in my opinion.
 

22 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Again no, not necessarily.  But I'm repeating myself because you're either not listening, understanding or just dismissing.  I'll bow out here.

All you've told me is that "it's possiblle, you create space, you give support".
All things I know very well IN REAL LIFE, but HOW do you do it IN FM? And why won't the game tell me, on the contrary, it will mislead me?

Even "lines and diamonds" says that a deep lying defence will netraulize a tactic based on through balls, so what should I do with all this contradictng knowledge?

I'm not dismissing what you say, but please forgive me if I tell you that it just isn't very helpful.

13 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Definitely not. SI have shown that it's possible to illustrate some of these tactical ideas with better graphics than a simple slider. We need more of them and the explanations improved. Doing all of that on a user friendly UI capable of being displayed on small resolutions as well as higher resolutions etc is the challenge.

I agree with this
 

[Chinook2000]

I think this topic should be moved to the Medication thread as a treatment for Insomnia.

It's certainly kept the Mods busy. If you wanna post it post it now!!

[Carninho]

3 minutes ago, Chinook2000 said:

I think this topic should be moved to the Medication thread as a treatment for Insomnia.

It's certainly kept the Mods busy. If you wanna post it post it now!!

Its the annual pre-release lull in the forum isn't it

[Muja]

4 minutes ago, Chinook2000 said:

I think this topic should be moved to the Medication thread as a treatment for Insomnia.

It's certainly kept the Mods busy. If you wanna post it post it now!!

This post has definitely treated my severe case of being bed-ridden and utterly bored

Honeslty if FM17 had been as fun and enjoyable as past versions, I'd be playing it, I wouldn't be here trying to fix it.

[lemeuresnew]

2 minutes ago, Carninho said:

Its the annual pre-release lull in the forum isn't it

i just get so lonely pre-release. im obviously not alone

 

 

[HUNT3R]

@Muja The year is 2032. Meet Wesley. The same man who brought you this just the year before:

 

 

But that's soooooo 2031. These are modern times. This is a man, but a man above the rest. He pities the fools on the opposition team. Wesley decided to follow his manager when he left the club. It is now England being terrorised by him and his gang of  gunners. 11 games into the season, they average 65% possession, conceded 1 goal and 87% pass completion. They started the season off with a 7-0 battering of a deep defending Fulham There's a mix of goals here, but pay attention to more than just the final ball. Duca at one point almost pulls off a fantastic through ball from the middle of the pitch. If space closes down, they calmly pass it backwards and try again. There's drawing attention to one flank before a through ball or cross to the other. There's pulling the defence apart. There are runs being made at certain times (though not always passed to). And then, 5-0 behind and deep, look at the through balls still being played to Luis, where he scores. There isn't always space but when there is, the team isn't scared to try. Lines and Diamonds does say a tactic BASED on through balls will struggle against deep defences and THoG is correct. It obvious to anyone with half a brain. But, create space. Create a tactic that isn't based on just through balls. This tactic is BASED on battering any opposition into submission... so that they don't know where to look, run or cover anymore:

 

 

[NabsKebabs]

I very much agree with most of your points OP. I'm a pretty smart guy I'd like to think but the descriptions in this game are so confusing and misleading. If I hadn't found this forum I'd have absolutely no idea what I was doing. Just the basics of mentality and shape are so hard to understand and I'm still not sure I fully understand them.

1 hour ago, Muja said:

And tiki-taka is another revolution that FM needs to aknowledge, too. In modern football possession of the ball is the key.

I would like to say I seriously disagree with this though. Leicester won the league playing very much the opposite of possession football.

 Possession can be great but fast transitions can be better. Another example is Arsenal - who I support - we've been playing possession football for a over a decade and only have FA Cups to show for it.

[Muja]

41 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

@Muja The year is 2032. Meet Wesley. The same man who brought you this just the year before:

 

 

But that's soooooo 2031. These are modern times. This is a man, but a man above the rest. He pities the fools on the opposition team. Wesley decided to follow his manager when he left the club. It is now England being terrorised by him and his gang of  gunners. 11 games into the season, they average 65% possession, conceded 1 goal and 87% pass completion. They started the season off with a 7-0 battering of a deep defending Fulham There's a mix of goals here, but pay attention to more than just the final ball. Duca at one point almost pulls off a fantastic through ball from the middle of the pitch. If space closes down, they calmly pass it backwards and try again. There's drawing attention to one flank before a through ball or cross to the other. There's pulling the defence apart. There are runs being made at certain times (though not always passed to). And then, 5-0 behind and deep, look at the through balls still being played to Luis, where he scores. There isn't always space but when there is, the team isn't scared to try. Lines and Diamonds does say a tactic BASED on through balls will struggle against deep defences and THoG is correct. It obvious to anyone with half a brain. But, create space. Create a tactic that isn't based on just through balls. This tactic is BASED on battering any opposition into submission... so that they don't know where to look, run or cover anymore:

 

 

 

I'll just ignore the first video that show a striker in a 1 vs 4 situation dribbling TWO opponents before scoring. That's not tactic, that's the player's skill.

The second video is a break. His team is not pressuring the opponents inside their box. The game "thinks" there's space, so it's good.

As for the third video... Deep defending Fulham?
Don't make me laugh. He started the game coming on top with a penalty, Fulham came out to try to equalize, and he ran rampant.

Look at how high is their defense at 00:40.


So, how does this show how to beat a deep lying defense with one-twos? How does this show how it translate in a command or setting of tactics in FM?

 

57 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Lines and Diamonds does say a tactic BASED on through balls will struggle against deep defences and THoG is correct. It obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Now, that is more than enough. I'm tired of being treated like a dumb little kid who's not understanding a simple game.
You want grand results? I can give you plenty.

If onyl I still had the savefile with Lazio, I could show my glorious triumph in Champions, won the final 4-0 (I don't remember against whom) in 2018. Without the regens the guy of the video probably had if he really was in 2030.

I can destroy your silly game.

I'm here complaining that it's not realistic. That it's too rigid. That some real life football setups aren't allowed inside the game.  All I receive is very weak proof of the contrary, sarcastic comments and insults. 

I'm not convinced anymore I'm in the right place, and more and more convinced that the world needs another football manager simulation game.

[HUNT3R]

@Muja The first two was just introducing Wesley. Thinly veiled bragging, but the last one still showing calm touches in front of goal.

The main video was just showing all goals. I did post that you needed to look at the last goals. Watch the through balls that are "impossible".

Now I'm out too. Your attitude will put people off trying to help you. The entire post was light-hearted, while still showing that through balls can happen against deep teams ------------------------------ and they were deep at 5-0 down, I just didn't compress them onto the penalty box, because it wouldn't make sense. Time to grow up a little.

There's your one-two, with a back heel too.

 

 

[noikeee]

I'm not sure I agree with the general tone and attitude but I generally agree with the OP. Getting rid of the sliders and moving into TC concepts was one of the best things SI has done, but it shouldn't have brought together the attached restrictions on player roles and all the confusingly inter-connected things. We've been stuck with a clunky, restrictive tactical interface for years now with little progress on it. The game below is pretty good but it suffers from this layer on top.

I mean, I can make a pretty comprehensive list of ways I feel restricted in this game:

 

Roles

- Why can't I tell a DLF/S to stop playing risky passes? What if I want something that's a little more creative than a DF but not a last-pass type player like a DLF?

- Why is "close down more" locked for a CM/D? What if I just want him to stay back and hold a restrained defensive position (relative to a CM position), instead of acting like a slightly toned down version of the headless chicken role aka the BWM?

- Why is "more risky passes" locked for a DLP? What if I just want him to dictate play from deep by mostly passing sideways?

- Why are the ball magnet effects of target men and all playmaker roles un-changeable? What if I like the PIs one of the playmaker roles have, but don't want the magnet effect?

- Why can't I tell my AP to shoot more? Is there anything in real life that forbids my playmaker who also happens to be good to shoot from long to try it?

- Why must a IWB have almost every single PI turned on? Why do I need all my IWBs to dribble more and play more risky passes? What if I have a guy that I want to use as an extra body on midfield from the fullback position, but who just passes sideways and doesn't do anything wild rather than morph into a deep-lying Iniesta?

- Speaking of which, why does the IWB role perform COMPLETELY different depending on whether I have a winger in front of him or not? What if I want to choose between the IWB that immediately moves to a midfield position without the ball (which happens with a winger in front), or the IWB that dribbles his way into midfield like a IF (which happens without a winger).

- Why must a Raumdeuter sit narrower? What if I want a guy that stretches play laterally but doesn't dribble and cross all the time like a winger does? There doesn't appear to be any fitting role for this?

- Why does the half-back role only drop to split the CBs if you're not playing with fullbacks? 

- Why does the sweeper keeper role barely do anything different from a normal keeper and not sweep at all?

- Why does the BPD role often waste more of the ball than the regular CB role, because it perversely tells them to play more risky passes which ends up with more punted up long balls, when the common sense interpretation of the role is the other way around?

- Why can't I tell any of my centreback roles, even the BPD, to dribble more? I know it's silly and stupid risky, but let me do it.

- Why can't I manually tell my wingers whether I want them to naturally defend in a very wide position like in FM17, or in a narrow, proper 2-banks-of-4 narrow stance like in FM16?

 

Mentality and team shape

- Why is creative freedom linked to fluidity? What if I want very tight lines (Very Fluid) but very little creativity (Very Structured), Atlético Madrid style?

- Why is "counter" mentality named the way it is, which is completely not counter-attacking football as discussed earlier, yet is more prone to activating a nebulous hidden mode of sudden gung-ho attacks?

- Why does lower mentalities increase the passing length of my defending players and decrease the passing length of my attacking players? What if I want to change mentalities for other reasons but don't want this side-effect?

- I often find myself wanting to change mentalities to increase/lower my player's positioning overall, HOWEVER this also increases my player's risky choices with the ball (ie more through balls, more long shots). What if I want the former but not the later? For more forward runs and higher positioning do I need to go through every single of my players and change their roles, when by the way this could have all sorts of all other implications depending on the available roles?

 

Instructions

- Why does work ball into box affect crossing? What if I want to stop my players to shoot from long (which they are VERY VERY VERY prone to do in this version of the game, against deep defences) but not stop the crosses? Why do I need to go through every single player and give them the "shoot less" PI for this?

- Does anyone actually know the full list of implications of what "retain possession" does these days? Does it shorten passing lenght? Drop risky passes? Turn down the tempo? All of it? What am I supposed to do with an instruction whose effects are nebulous and unclear?

- As the OP vaguely hinted at, why is there no distinction in instructions between running with the ball into an open space, and running past opposition players? They both seem to be covered by the "run with ball often" or "dribble more" instructions? What if I want one but not the other?

- Why is there no distinction between overall defending width and attacking width, with the defending width being exclusively set by mentality? What if I want to change this and defend narrower/wider but don't want all the other side-effects of mentality?

 

I'm sure you can think of many workarounds for many of these issues, or think these are pointless issues that do not make sense, and point me instead to SI's vision of the roles and instructions. And those are valid interpretations. I hope however, that I have shown there are plenty of other alternative interpretations, and plenty of constraints as a result of this tactical interface with too many interconnected side-effects from choosing certain instructions.

Please give us more freedom. I don't care if it makes the game too easy - maybe it will. Maybe it will open up holes for the ME to be exploited, indeed. I just want to feel that my players do what I tell them directly to do (in their own way according to their attributes, of course), rather than game the interface around by pressing 5 different buttons of 5 different things to maybe get them to play the way I want it. This is indeed not good game design.

And now imagine someone who tries to dance their way through the interface, as a newbie to the game, without having the knowledge I've accumulated here through years and years of reading the forum to know what the instructions do. Even real life football tactics gurus would be absolutely lost in the interface and nuances.

[themadsheep2001]

25 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

@Muja The first two was just introducing Wesley. Thinly veiled bragging, but the last one still showing calm touches in front of goal.

The main video was just showing all goals. I did post that you needed to look at the last goals. Watch the through balls that are "impossible".

Now I'm out too. Your attitude will put people off trying to help you. The entire post was light-hearted, while still showing that through balls can happen against deep teams ------------------------------ and they were deep at 5-0 down, I just didn't compress them onto the penalty box, because it wouldn't make sense. Time to grow up a little.

There's your one-two, with a back heel too.

 

 

Consider me out too, not sure why I was tagged into a conversation 24 hours we'd already established something

@noikeee, There's a lot there I agree with, and have done for some time.

The move from sliders was phenomenal, but the TC is nowhere near its true potential yet, its very good now, but it could be fundamentally brilliant. Hell, you could make changes to the TC alone each year for the next few years, and you'd fundamentally changing the game for the better each time. Maybe another discussion to be had post release of FM18, i'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[MBarbaric]

4 hours ago, Muja said:

Especially, for the life of me, I can't understand how I can tell my players to do more one-twos in front of the box to destabilize the opponent's defense.

In short, you can't really. ME doesn't represent some important parts of real football, especially - movement. Horizontal movement of players is very limited and, more importantly, players switching positions is almost non existent. For example, think about how many times have you seen your midfield three switch positions to create "mobile triangle" consistently during the match? It can happen on occasion but that is very much an exception not the norm. only vertical movement is present and even that is nowhere near perfect.

The tactic you imagine (i.e. Juventus squeezing the opposition in front of their box and working around till they score), is essentially dependent on clever off the ball movement from front players and the ability of these players to comfortably exchange their roles. what is usually called fluidity in attacking phase.  This kind of movement is severely limited inside the ME and that is why you aren't able to recreate properly these tactics. you aren't able to pull and stretch the defence as you are used to.

there are workarounds and things but essentially a proper fluid movement is still not implemented to mimic some aspects of real life tactics.

 

[santy001]

Catching up on this thread feels more that this has descended into a fairly circular discussion and while someone from SI like Neil might have wandered through, there's an awful lot of fluff. 

There's a feedback thread, now I can't say with absolute certainty that this is the desired formula, but in there posting what element of the game is concerned, what your issue is, and why it doesn't feel good to you is probably the best way to make something meaningful, intelligible and workable. 

What you think the solution is does indeed add a soothing element of "Here's my masterplan" and is what the feature request section is for, but if you have 30-40 posts in a thread each with little aspects of the bigger picture... it's likely to get ignored. Not maliciously, not because no one wants to hear these issues. Just because they're so scattered and so few and far between it would be impossible to pull it all together into something coherent to a third party in a timely manner.

Keep the whole thing to a few sentences, odds are someone at SI can make sense of it, and the merits of it can be judged much easier.

[Ji-Sung Park]

@noikeee with a great post. Try to improve this game for the love of Christ.

[Strikerir1]

Comenting on this will be a challenge but i think i have a clear vision about what hunter and muja are trying to achieve here, so here it goes:

Warning : Excuse any spelling mistakes or grammar errors im portuguese and im trying my best.

So i think that both are right in a way. Both Hunter and Muja.

Football Manager is a Great Simulation Game, but there it is the tricky part Simulation\Game. By what ive seen from this discussion Hunter defends that football manager is right in the aproach they ve took and in a sense it is, because it does replicate well real life even with is flaws but at the same time, Muja is right because it is meant to be a game and not overcomplicate things that could be simple and have replay value . But Football Manager now becoming a simulation more than a game it means that you will have to sit and understand the different roles and be sure you know close to everything in the game just like in real life , but by doing that you will know the AI" that even with developement it will always be a limited cpu with limited opcions"  completely and you will be able tto win every match or almost every and thats where the replay value ends. But if it stuck to just   being a game instead would benefit FM because it would have more different aproaches and you will be less saturated .Imagine i put all of the work in the world to understand this simulation and i achieve it , then i go on to win the league, and champions league and that will be enough because im saturated with all the work i had to do just to understant the "Simulation Game".

But i enjoy anyways being a simulation it is more challenging even having less replay value, but you feel more like real life. But for people who want a game of football management, FM is getting away from that and leaning towards Simulation. 

So the only solution i found for the issue is : The Roles and everything in the game need a better description for more casual players to understand it easily, and more default roles (more customizable).

 

Im truly sorry for my horrible english i hope its readable and you can understand my points .

 

[Strikerir1]

17 hours ago, Muja said:

And that's really how it should be, and I'm happy to know that now.

They should really just call it "risk mentality" and let it change JUST that parameter.

Let "counter" and "control" be tactical styles that you can setup with any kind of "risk mentality", because they're not strictly related.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=826274104 You can always use Rashidi's Language pack he changed the Mentality to Risk and instead of showing Contain, Defensive etc... it shows Low, High etc...

[Sunstrikuuu]

On 9/7/2017 at 13:02, noikeee said:

- Why must a IWB have almost every single PI turned on? Why do I need all my IWBs to dribble more and play more risky passes? What if I have a guy that I want to use as an extra body on midfield from the fullback position, but who just passes sideways and doesn't do anything wild rather than morph into a deep-lying Iniesta?

My understanding is that this goes back to FM2015, where IWBs were intended to come inside and act almost like CM(s)s when attacking and fullbacks in defense.  They were broken on release and never fixed, and their intended behavior was redesigned to the inside-forward-but-in-defense role that we have now.

[xambo]

I think Football Manager has improved a lot from what it was before. Does it still need polishing and improving? Yes very much. I think in terms of a football game its a matter of keep improving each year for ever as it will never be 100% perfect. 

Now looking at it from another perspective. Is the game tactics screen intentionally made easier so that the average Joe can enjoy the game instead of just the Football experts? Or is the new tactics screen more realistic by having player roles, visual team instruction screen rather than a slider ? 

I think its a bit of both and the answer is hovering between these 2 questions. One thing I can add is that in the end its an AI system and it is very difficult to implement real life Football in terms of tactics. For example, sometimes just saying the right thing in team talk will change the whole match even if it doesn't seem very realistic. Sometimes just making the tempo one tic higher and you start controlling the match and win it. That small adjustment does not sound very realistic in terms of real Football tactics but in the match engine it might trigger the AI equation formula and make your team dominate. I personally think the game has become easier in recent years and I am winning more than before. I am not sure if it is from the actual game getting easier or me getting better at it. 

In the end we all want the game to keep improving specially in the match engine and tactics. 

[reiiz]

Hello, 

I read this post from the beginning and it seems that some people(I don't get why) wants to defend FM so much that they don't even see that what they are saying have no sense. 

@HUNT3R don't you see that the description you are giving for "counter" mentality is the exact same that FM put in the game for "control" mentality. And "counter" in-game description is exactly what @Muja said it is in real life which is the opposite of what you claim it is in game. It's like putting blue dot on hot water and red dot on cold water. 

Also, how can you say a tactic where defenders are more often in the opponent part of the pitch(tiki taka) than in theirs is a defensive style ? 

That said, there is two possibilities :

- You are right about what mentality is and that means that devs and people who wrote descriptions never talked each other. Mentality isn't about risks because as you said, you can play deep or high with all mentality. So it's all about passing style which can also be choosen additionally to mentality then that should mean mentality have absolutely no goal. 

- You are wrong and the game is broken, you just found a way to pass above the bugs and claims that this is the behavior FM devs wanted because (I don't get why) you want to defend them even if it has no sense.

Sorry for my bad English, that's not my first language. 

Also I want to make it clear that my goal isnt to attack you directly I just want to understand how this game really works because it really looks broken and all the arguments I read about why it's not are always contradictory

[Dave1990]

Absolutely agree with @noikeee, great post!

I would like to add that another problem is realism and its implementation in the game.

If I use a counterattack tactics, I shouldn't be able to set a tactic of possession, reiterated and continuous throughout the season against any opponent and any kind of approach, both offensive or defensive. 
A counterattack mentality presupposes a fast-paced style of play and an immediate overturn of action, so if you want to be effective with this style of play, you have to choose the right instructions for this particular style of play. And on the other hand, instructions suited to other types of mentalities, they should go against this style of play, making it ineffective, but I noticed that FM17 doesn't happen and indeed, the opposite happens often.

Another example that is taken from my gaming experience happened a few days ago: against an opponent who played with a 4-3-3 with a "highly structured" team shape and three strikers set to attack I had no hopes, despite the fact that his lineup had theoretical weaknesses, the first of all the huge distance between the positions, as well as the extreme isolation of the three offensive players with obvious repercussions both on defensive and offensive phase. 

This year from my point of view and as I have already said in other discussions, the game is very random in the tactical sector unfortunately. The phase of defensive readings and closing down, for example, is completely to be reviewed, isn't realistic.
The ideal would be to set up a specific defense for certain game situations. For example, in opposing throw-ins situations the defensive phase is always quite random, there is no difference between the different situations such as "uncovered ball defense" ("uncovered" is a literal translation from italian,  I don't know how this translates in english) and "covered ball defense", which is now fundamental to modern football. I think it's not easy to schedule such a thing, but now we have to keep in mind these things, we are almost in 2018. 

[enigmatic]

Don't understand the complaint about difficulty beating a deep defence with 1-2s: it's how most of the excessively effective formations in FM17 work offensively.

"Short Passing", "Exploit the Middle", "Play Narrow", "Work ball into the box"  and lots of players that are either based in the AMC strata or making central runs beyond it. Shadow strikers and midfielders/narrow wingbacks with "get forward" instructions are particularly good at it

Every time the AI gets slightly out of position (frequently if you're overloading them) you get a 1-2 through their defence, otherwise if your pivot player(s) are reasonably intelligent they'll play it back to an unmarked CM(D) who can wait for your players to reorganise before starts the same move off with a different player making the run. It'd be a better game if there was some more precise way to instruct players to make that sort of attacking movement and it doesn't look especially pretty, but it definitely works: if anything too well

[MHovel]

1st of all, I'm addicted to this game and it's great, it has it's pro's and cons, but the game currently is in a position that makes the user more frustrated than really enjoying the game.

For the smartass guys, you can say such as, go play other games etc... Me personally, I can't because of personal issues, otherwise I won't be here.

It's not about winning in this game.

What I find annoying in FM is that teams who are "Parking the Bus" are somehow the team who have the upper hand and I will try to explain my experience so far.

After reading here a lot and even trying to strech oppositions when facing clubs who tend to park the bus, my players just taking long shots instead of retaining possession or even providing a through pass when there are options to pass for a player who end up as an opportunity or even a goal  (if there wasn't a player to pass to, I wouldn't expect the engie to be perfect in this term but this is happenning too frequently and it supposed to stimulate football and it doesn't feel like that).

IRL, it's not that easy to park the bus the entire match and to end up with a draw or stealing a win when one team is closing down and put lots of pressure on the opposition (as i said, it can happen that weaker team managed to scratch a win or a draw while parking the bus the entire match 5-6 times in a season, but in game it's completely unrealistic in this term an ruinning the match engine).

Every match against team who park the bus (mostly happens with low level teams) is the worst experience for FM players not because it's hard to play against, it's the midfield/attacking players decision who is being messed up (and attributes doesn't play a factor in this case because i'm talking about players with good attributes, such as decisions, teamwork, vision etc... who reacts the same).

The engine is "gifting" the defensive teams in this term.

if you really lucky the parking bus team will score an own goal (which is very common in this match engine) and the AI manager will go attacking mentality or even changing foramation and you manage to "beat" him or even humiliating the AI team.

This is my experience so far.

 

Regardless to the above I typed, I just played a game against chelsea, i was leading 1-0, I didn't really expect to win against chelsea away, not even getting a draw, but this is totally out of order.

It just doesn't make sense that the game allow such of goals (dont' get me wrong, there was matches when I scored the same goal, difference are, the AI is not emotional).
you know, if you watch the 1st goal i concede, in this match engine this tend to happen a lot when a full back clearing the ball to the middle (IRL it tend to happen when players does that, but this is quite a mistake and dangerous to do so), in game it tend to happen simply a lot and invites a lot of pressure.

IRL, when full backs clearing the ball, it's mostly to the flanks and never, but never to the middle. if they clear to the middle it's only if they forced to clear with their weaker foot or they does a mistake etc...

in this video, francis cleared the ball to the middle, to a crowded space (even though he could let the ball keep going or even clearing with his stronger foot to the other side of the flank), the ball deflected on pedro and it's a goal, great move by ME , I'm sorry I meant Pedro.

2nd goal, do i have to add? there is anything to add after watching it?

I can expect bad defending against chelsea because they are the stronger side, and conceding some great football moves, but conceding such goals, this is too clowning and annoying because chelsea in this game did litterly nothing. 

After conceding such goals let's try to be composed and chase the game back, yeah, right!@

2017-09-11 16-29-52.mp4

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, MHovel said:

IRL, when full backs clearing the ball, it's mostly to the flanks and never, but never to the middle. if they clear to the middle it's only if they forced to clear with their weaker foot or they does a mistake etc...

in this video, francis cleared the ball to the middle, to a crowded space (even though he could let the ball keep going or even clearing with his stronger foot to the other side of the flank), the ball deflected on pedro and it's a goal, great move by ME , I'm sorry I meant Pedro.

2nd goal, do i have to add? there is anything to add after watching it?

I can expect bad defending against chelsea because they are the stronger side, and conceding some great football moves, but conceding such goals, this is too clowning and annoying because chelsea in this game did litterly nothing. 

After conceding such goals let's try to be composed and chase the game back, yeah, right!@

2017-09-11 16-29-52.mp4

The first goal is hilariously unlucky, but the sort of mishit clearance from a player who doesn't realise how much time he has you see pretty much every weekend (albeit often with the ball deflecting just wide or into the arms of a relieved keeper)

The second goal is, at Premiership level, a bug.

[enigmatic]

.

[MHovel]

17 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The first goal is hilariously unlucky, but the sort of mishit clearance from a player who doesn't realise how much time he has you see pretty much every weekend (albeit often with the ball deflecting just wide or into the arms of a relieved keeper)

The second goal is, at Premiership level, a bug.

Thanks for the comment.

I disagree with you about the 1st goal being unlucky. As we can see Francis position wasn't that hard to clear the ball correctly.

The example I provide isn't to moan about this specific goal I conceed, it's not relevant, I wanted to share my experience with the game when full backs tend to clear the ball to the wrong direction which occurs too often in FM.

Second goal, that bug is annoying which tend to happen so often im wondering why this couldn't be fixed even though it was reported when the game status was only a demo (if my player would  score such goal I tend to switch off from the game because i know it has nothing to do with football and it's part of the ME issue).

so counting 2 goals being "unlucky" how the casual user (not me, assuming it will happens to someone else), can be satisfied with the game with those flaws which are a part of the ME? it's quite depressing.

[HUNT3R]

@reiiz Everything you mention was covered in the thread already. Everything was answered and in quite a few instances, I agreed with Muja and so did others. I would recommend reading through the thread.

[ferrarinseb]

@noikeee You just nailed it sir.

 

I think it would be better if SI gives us roles which are free of instructions for every position. Like a CM of now but with no PI for every position that would surely help some of the aspects we are facing and gives us a bit more Freedom to try different setups and helps to understand the deeper instructions like Work the ball into Box / Retain Possession 

Quote

As the OP vaguely hinted at, why is there no distinction in instructions between running with the ball into an open space, and running past opposition players? They both seem to be covered by the "run with ball often" or "dribble more" instructions? What if I want one but not the other?

Best example : Bernardo Silva AP/ IF with Attack gives me heart attack in my City save, He always runs unnecessarily and tries to dribble past 2 or 3 players and ends up loosing the ball. The only role he works for me is Raumdetuer. 

[bowieinspace]

Whoa now. If we are posting videos for less than humble brags I want in!

Let me set the scene, first day of the La Liga season, Almeria decided to employ a foolish 4-4-2 defending deep. I decided my centre backs could deal with their forwards in a 2v2 pretty easily, and their 4-4-2, even defending on the edge of their box had no chance against our movement. What followed was a blood bath. If you're gonna park the bus don't do it with a rubbish 4-4-2 and refuse to change it!!

 

 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, ferrarinseb said:

I think it would be better if SI gives us roles which are free of instructions for every position.

There should be a "general" role for each position that can be tweaked in most instructions. As previously mentioned, this is definitely lacking at AML/R especially. I'd say that it's very unlikely to have a completely blank role though.

[ferrarinseb]

16 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

There should be a "general" role for each position that can be tweaked in most instructions. As previously mentioned, this is definitely lacking at AML/R especially. I'd say that it's very unlikely to have a completely blank role though.

I don't know why its unlikely it could really help the game to mold more in later versions. A start with free roles would be better for developing the ME. 

Though i don't know how much effort it would be having to code all that. But over all i think we are due on improvement of the tactical Interface so that we get less complexity of which instruction does what which is what most of the issues coming from in my POV. 

As noikee said why work the ball into box means less crosses but still some out of box shooting is just a sample of it. 

[ferrarinseb]

27 minutes ago, bowieinspace said:

Whoa now. If we are posting videos for less than humble brags I want in!

Let me set the scene, first day of the La Liga season, Almeria decided to employ a foolish 4-4-2 defending deep. I decided my centre backs could deal with their forwards in a 2v2 pretty easily, and their 4-4-2, even defending on the edge of their box had no chance against our movement. What followed was a blood bath. If you're gonna park the bus don't do it with a rubbish 4-4-2 and refuse to change it!!

 

 

GET IN HOW GOOD ARE OUR FORWARDS TODAY

Sorry cant help  

 

 

[HUNT3R]

@noikeee Good post. I'll attempt to answer the ones I can answer. Those I don't, I generally agree with.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

- Why can't I tell a DLF/S to stop playing risky passes? What if I want something that's a little more creative than a DF but not a last-pass type player like a DLF?

Although I do agree that on the surface this is a strange one, I use a DLF/S a lot. I don't see him attempting too many risky passes though. In fact I get him to play so safe that it doesn't even seem to be active! As I said just before this post, there should be a general role and this one is it at ST, so it should be open for you to activate risky passes or not. There's always a DF if you specifically don't want risky passes though.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why are the ball magnet effects of target men and all playmaker roles un-changeable? What if I like the PIs one of the playmaker roles have, but don't want the magnet effect

This is what the role is though? At the same time, that's what the general roles are supposed to be for as well. If you don't want a TM/S, select a DLF/S. If you don't want a playmaker, select a CM or AM, for instance.

You cannot expect a playmaker role not to be a playmaker or a target man role not to be a target man. That creates more confusion where we have enough already, tbh.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why can't I tell my AP to shoot more? Is there anything in real life that forbids my playmaker who also happens to be good to shoot from long to try it?

Because they're playmakers. Their primary job is to provide others with passes. You can always try the more adventurous type of playmaker, the Enganche or Trequartista. The latter especially I'm quite sure will be more trigger happy when it comes to shooting. Not that an AP won't shoot at all, mind.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why must a Raumdeuter sit narrower? What if I want a guy that stretches play laterally but doesn't dribble and cross all the time like a winger does? There doesn't appear to be any fitting role for this?

This isn't a Raumdeuter issue. The role is correct, but SI have admitted that there needs to be a general role at AML/R and there isn't currently.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why does the half-back role only drop to split the CBs if you're not playing with fullbacks? 

This has to buggy behaviour.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why does the sweeper keeper role barely do anything different from a normal keeper and not sweep at all?

He's a lot more comfortable on the ball, for one thing and a lot happier to leave his line or even the box in the case of an Attack Duty.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why does the BPD role often waste more of the ball than the regular CB role, because it perversely tells them to play more risky passes which ends up with more punted up long balls, when the common sense interpretation of the role is the other way around?

The explanation is in the description of the role but I guess no one reads this.

 

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why can't I manually tell my wingers whether I want them to naturally defend in a very wide position like in FM17, or in a narrow, proper 2-banks-of-4 narrow stance like in FM16?

This is a strange question given that we've never had this instruction. It will need adding, but I agree it should be somewhat possible to do this.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why does lower mentalities increase the passing length of my defending players and decrease the passing length of my attacking players? What if I want to change mentalities for other reasons but don't want this side-effect?

The Defend/Counter Mentalities were intended as more defensive setups. The idea there is to be direct at the back so that defenders get it out of the pressure/danger zone and to the midfield or front players where the front players can pass it shorter to a) get the team forward and b) ease pressure of being pinned into your own third by keeping possession there.

To negate that, you can obviously select Play Out Of Defence, to shorten passing at the back or tinker with passing TI or individual players.

The idea with the more attacking Mentalities was keeping possession, so shorter passing at the back and (in keeping with an attacking style) be direct up front to be incisive. 

We (on the forum) have been using Mentalities, as I mentioned, in an outside the box sort of way, so this maybe needs looking into. Ideas have evolved since this was created, basically.

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

I often find myself wanting to change mentalities to increase/lower my player's positioning overall, HOWEVER this also increases my player's risky choices with the ball (ie more through balls, more long shots). What if I want the former but not the later? For more forward runs and higher positioning do I need to go through every single of my players and change their roles, when by the way this could have all sorts of all other implications depending on the available roles?

This has never changed. Mentality has always affected both, even in slider days. It's not going to affect their default behaviour (role, duty and TIs/PIs) but just change the risk associated with an action. A FB/A will always be looking to make those forward runs often. On a Defend Mentality he'll just do it when it's safer compared to on Attack Mentality when he'll bomb forward almost immediately, taking a bigger risk in doing so. So to answer you - yes. If you're going to change Mentality in the extreme way that you are implying you do, the tactic needs to be set up for it.

 

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Why does work ball into box affect crossing? What if I want to stop my players to shoot from long (which they are VERY VERY VERY prone to do in this version of the game, against deep defences) but not stop the crosses? Why do I need to go through every single player and give them the "shoot less" PI for this?

The name implies it. Working the ball into the box. You're not working the ball into the box if you're happily just swinging the ball into the box. Players don't shoot that often, surely? I can't remember the last time I used this instruction and my players aren't doing this so much that I've needed to think about using it. So yes, I can't see this changing at all. You have the PIs available to you.

 

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

Does anyone actually know the full list of implications of what "retain possession" does these days? Does it shorten passing lenght? Drop risky passes? Turn down the tempo? All of it? What am I supposed to do with an instruction whose effects are nebulous and unclear?

A few of us has. Shortens length and reduces risky passes. It used to lower tempo, but not anymore. But, as I've agreed on earlier in the thread, whether a few of us knows or not, it needs to be clear to everyone what it is you're instructing.

 

On 9/7/2017 at 19:02, noikeee said:

As the OP vaguely hinted at, why is there no distinction in instructions between running with the ball into an open space, and running past opposition players? They both seem to be covered by the "run with ball often" or "dribble more" instructions? What if I want one but not the other?

The game describes this clearly as dribbling AT defenders. So players will naturally move with the ball into space, if it's there.

 

---

 

As I said, I do agree with you overall. There needs to be more clarity and a little more freedom. Splitting instructions etc will be a big change, even if it doesn't seem like it. Remember - the AI will need to be able to use them and know how to. As it is, they're only just becoming fairly competent in "thinking" wrt setting up their own tactics and reacting to match situations.

[bowieinspace]

1 hour ago, ferrarinseb said:

GET IN HOW GOOD ARE OUR FORWARDS TODAY

Sorry cant help  

 

 

Haha

On a seperate note I'm not sure what happened to the rip of those highlights but the goals are out of order, some of the players are wearing the wrong kit and the fade outs are all over the shop! FM couldn't handle all the goals

[ferrarinseb]

53 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

As I said, I do agree with you overall. There needs to be more clarity and a little more freedom. Splitting instructions etc will be a big change, even if it doesn't seem like it. Remember - the AI will need to be able to use them and know how to. As it is, they're only just becoming fairly competent in "thinking" wrt setting up their own tactics and reacting to match situations.

If im brutally honest i would take a easy winning for a version or two against AI if that is what it needs to Improve the entire tactical set in interface and new possibilities to implement then they can again come back to be fairly competent in Thinking aspect to fight against User managers. 

Freedom is really important then comes clarity, if we have more freedom in aspects we can clearly try to see what happens which gives alot of clarity and clear information that further helps to understand the concepts.

For me i dont have much knowledge of the game only FM 16 and 17 are the ones i played which i played over 2000 Hrs in combined versions. I feel that many are still struggling due to lack of Tactical knowledge and information of what does What which is a big problem as the game beneath it is really massive and enjoyable for those who clearly understands which are few or even very few.