Weaker foot: avoid or train?

[Pingdinho]

I have a world class striker who is lethal with his right foot, but is really quite poor with his left foot, often shooting off target with that foot.

What is the best option to deal with this?

Train his weaker foot? (He is 26 so I don't know if that is too old)

Train him to avoid the use of his weaker foot?

Do something tactically so he finds himself more in positions where shooting with the right foot is more natural?

Something else?

[herne79]

You say he's lethal with his right.  Define lethal?  How many goals is he scoring for you?  If he's already scoring lots (ie., he's "lethal") then is there really an issue?

[Rashidi]

I think you;'re off better training both feet for a player dribbling centrally as a playmaker

[alanschu14]

I have a fundamental bias that likes to have my non-GK players at least comfortable enough with their off foot that they are not "Right/Left-Only" but I'm not sure if it's "ideal" or not. Just that I want them to maintain some of their proficiency if they get forced onto their off foot.  I do like a solid rotation quality player to be either though, so he can sub for either of the fullback positions if need be and be comfortable on both sides.

I typically only play with wingbacks/fullbacks and rarely as inverted players so I may leave some of them at strong foot only.  I do like to develop both feet of my central players that I expect to dribble more.  AMCs and CMs that I expect the play to go through so that they are comfortable regardless of the circumstances.  I also find these are the players most often needing to use their off foot just due to the flow of the game.

That said, I've heard some people say they rarely if ever train off foot.  I imagine the game engine simply applies a small handicap to a player's technical abilities when using the off foot and I don't know how significant those penalties are.

[Pingdinho]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

You say he's lethal with his right.  Define lethal?  How many goals is he scoring for you?  If he's already scoring lots (ie., he's "lethal") then is there really an issue?

Oh there's not a problem really in the sense he underperforms. I can rely on him to get 30+ league goals, maybe 40+ in all competitions, in a season. I will be honest and say that I haven't analysed it statistically, and was speaking a little hyperbolically, but I saw several "easy" shots missed with the left foot recently. I realised I had got into the habit of accepting he will miss whenever I see him shaping up to shoot with his left foot. I also realise that this might just be confirmation bias.

Anyway, long story short, it got me wondering whether I can coax a little more out of the player simply because more goals is always better (top football analysis for you there ). But beyond that, I think it is an interesting question, even if we ignore my particular player.

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

I think you;'re off better training both feet for a player dribbling centrally as a playmaker

Interesting, I actually never really thought about two footedness having a role in dribbling, but then I suppose it will always help for any player in any role. I guess the obvious stuff like a shanked shot or a misplaced pass stand out more so I tend to focus on that.

I wonder, then, would avoiding using the weaker foot actually do more harm than good in some cases? Perhaps a slightly worse hit pass or shot played quicker, would be better then a better hit pass or shot played later after the player has shifted the ball to the other foot.

Maybe the whole idea of avoiding a weaker foot makes no sense for a striker anyway when most of the time you need them to take a quick action rather than delay to get the ball onto their strong foot.

Maybe it's not even the player's fault. Let's accept for a moment that my striker is hopeless on his weaker foot. If that is the case, the AI managers will probably know that too and may well have instructed their defenders to show him onto his weak side.

[enigmatic]

Apart from the errant shooting, you might want to take into account that improving his weaker foot will also improve his touch (whenever it would be an advantage to use a left foot) and ability to turn his man (by making him more easily able to go past markers on either side). Striker is probably the position I'd think it's most useful to have ability on both feet  since they're under the most pressure from opponents and a scuffed shot is usually more costly than a scuffed pass. Also why I'd be very reluctant to train a striker to "avoid using weaker foot" unless I expected the vast majority of his contribution to a game to be running onto through balls.

The flip side is that training a weaker foot costs a correspondingly high amount of "current ability", which if he's quite near his potential already could even mean other attributes coming down, and even a raw teenager is only able to improve their weaker foot by a small amount

The other bit about footedness I've always wondered is how it interacts with decision making. In theory, going from "very weak" to "weak" could actually be a bad thing if the result is the player being significantly more likely to use his left foot to shoot with whilst still not being very good at converting chances with it. On the other hand, his footedness should affect how defenders mark him (even if only through AI setting the "show onto weaker foot" setting less often) more often so it might actually give him more space on his stronger foot more often. Not sure which effect is largest.

[herne79]

9 minutes ago, Pingdinho said:

Oh there's not a problem really in the sense he underperforms. I can rely on him to get 30+ league goals, maybe 40+ in all competitions, in a season. I will be honest and say that I haven't analysed it statistically, and was speaking a little hyperbolically, but I saw several "easy" shots missed with the left foot recently. I realised I had got into the habit of accepting he will miss whenever I see him shaping up to shoot with his left foot. I also realise that this might just be confirmation bias.

If it ain't broke don't fix it .

16 minutes ago, Pingdinho said:

Maybe the whole idea of avoiding a weaker foot makes no sense for a striker anyway when most of the time you need them to take a quick action rather than delay to get the ball onto their strong foot.

There you go .

Anecdotally I've never felt the need to either train players to develop their weaker foot or avoid using it.  After all, it doesn't seem to do Messi any harm...

4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The flip side is that it costs a correspondingly high amount of "current ability", which if he's quite near his potential already could even mean other attributes coming down

Yes and no.  If going all the way from very weak to very strong then possibly, but in practise:- there are limits to how much the weaker foot can actually be developed (you can't go from very weak to very strong for example); the amount of CA increase varies from player to player (eg., improving the weaker foot in a central defender uses less CA than for a central midfielder); and the amount of CA gain can differ depending on the starting point (eg., going from very weak to reasonable uses less CA than going from reasonable to very strong).

Agree if he's at/near his potential other attributes may need to reduce to compensate, but again this may only be very small as the reductions would be shared across the board rather than just one or two reducing.  So you may for example see a 0.2 reduction across all/most attributes rather than a 5 point reduction in just a couple.

One thing to add as well @ the OP - learning this Trait (PPM) doesn't actually develop the weaker foot itself.  Once learned it merely gives the player the ability to start developing it over a period of time.  Sometimes this can confuse people as they get the PPM learnt, see the player still has a poor weak foot and think wth?

[lemeuresnew]

On 8/30/2017 at 00:08, herne79 said:

Anecdotally I've never felt the need to either train players to develop their weaker foot or avoid using it.  After all, it doesn't seem to do Messi any harm...

i think that is a very good example lol. if the player is good enough, he will do ok still. if i had a more average stats wise player i would develop the foot because he probably wouldnt be good enough to move the ball consistently onto his better foot or take chances quicker to avoid the weaker foot etc

i remember when i was a kid reading that Shanks always ensured every player could pass the ball with both feet to an acceptable level at least. i know a lot of people have different styles of play, and preferred attributes. for me, the basic passing with both feet are a must throughout the team. it may take a point or 2 ability up, but im the manager and they will play as i want or leave...

[Shi Xiansheng]

I think learning neither PPM is the safe play, and you need a good, considered reason to learn either.  Coaches will constantly advise you to encourage Joe Jumpersforgoalposts to avoid the use of his weaker foot; ignore them.

What I've generally read is that avoiding the weaker foot may be a good idea ONLY for players whose weak foot is "Very Weak."  Even if their off foot is "Weak," the advantage gained by their not hitting a ball out to touch with their off foot is offset by the opportunity cost of constantly shifting the ball onto their strong foot.  (That is, Weak is good enough for many things.)  Even if one foot is Very Weak, avoiding its use is probably more advantageous for certain positions than for others (for example, wide men who tend to stay glued to the touchline).

On the flip side, developing the weaker foot can obviously provide an advantage, but as already noted, it consumes CA, adds to training workload, possibly precludes you from learning a more useful PPM or tutoring/being tutored, and is more worth it when the player is young and will have time to actually undergo that development.  Also, two-footedness is more beneficial for certain positions than for others (for me, I would say strikers and non-defensive central midfielders).

[alanschu14]

14 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

i think that is a very good example lol. if the player is good enough, he will do ok still. if i had a more average stats wise player i would develop the foot because he probably wouldnt be good enough to move the ball consistently onto his better foot or take chances quicker to avoid the weaker foot etc

i remember when i was a kid reading that Shanks always ensured every player could pass the ball with both feet to an acceptable level at least. i know a lot of people have different styles of play, and preferred attributes. for me, the basic passing with both feet are a must throughout the team. it may take a point or 2 ability up, but im the manager and they will play as i want or leave...

This is my approach. It's also hard to really know what it means to be "very weak" on the off foot for elite footballers!  I suspect very weak off foot players are still better than I am with my strong foot! Hahaha.

I find Technique score is a good predictor as to whether or not they are successful in using their off foot, so I could see that something like that could mean that a player with two good feet could still make good curled shots regardless of circumstance.  But yeah maybe it's better to just have those CA spread out throughout the attributes.

[JavierChicharito14]

Train weaker foot : Cost CA, but the weaker foot does not improve drastically .

[Seb Wassell]

7 hours ago, JavierChicharito14 said:

Train weaker foot : Cost CA, but the weaker foot does not improve drastically .

It does not cost that much CA. Also worth noting that it is not possible to improve a weak foot to above "Reasonable" via training.

[frank_olaf]

5 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

It does not cost that much CA. Also worth noting that it is not possible to improve a weak foot to above "Reasonable" via training.

If the weaker foot is already at 'reasonable', how much better can it get?

[JavierChicharito14]

What if my player has already reached his full potential,

if I train his weaker foot, will other attributes drop in order to compensate the CA cost?

[herne79]

13 hours ago, frank_olaf said:

If the weaker foot is already at 'reasonable', how much better can it get?

It can't go beyond reasonable.

11 minutes ago, JavierChicharito14 said:

What if my player has already reached his full potential,

if I train his weaker foot, will other attributes drop in order to compensate the CA cost?

Yes.  Although 1) it doesn't cost that much CA and 2) if attributes are rebalanced you'd probably see only minor (0.1/0.2) drops across many attributes rather single large hits against just one or two attributes.

[lemeuresnew]

On 9/2/2017 at 11:15, herne79 said:

It can't go beyond reasonable.

is that definite? i have a player making excellent progress while reasonable, he has gone up a bit on it already. am i wasting my time?

[herne79]

5 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

is that definite?

Yup, advised by SI.

"Reasonable" covers an underlying (hidden) numeric range, so possibly the reason you are seeing some progress while still Reasonable is it's progressing through that range until it reaches it's numeric limit.

Basically the only way of having a player better than Reasonable for his weaker foot is if he's born with it as a newgen (or an existing player as defined in the database).

[lemeuresnew]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Yup, advised by SI.

"Reasonable" covers an underlying (hidden) numeric range, so possibly the reason you are seeing some progress while still Reasonable is it's progressing through that range until it reaches it's numeric limit.

Basically the only way of having a player better than Reasonable for his weaker foot is if he's born with it as a newgen (or an existing player as defined in the database).

ah well. i will leave him til it finishes, just to see it myself and see if there is any message in game or advice to stop the training

cheers

 

[Shehab ashraf]

I am beginner in football manager 2018. How I can improve my players weaker foot 

 

[Shehab ashraf]

Just now, Shehab ashraf said:

I am beginner in football manager 2018. Where I can improve my players weaker foot