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oyz

Defense: 451 without possession, 352 in possession - possible?

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oyz   

QUESTION

One question about how to set up, if possible a tactic where:

- I defend in 451 - but attack in 352
- But in possession, I want my ML/AML to work as a second striker, playing around my sole striker (an old-fashioned target-man type).
- In possession I want my DL to work as a wingback and keep the width on the left, while my MR-winger does the same on the right.
- My DR will tuck in to while my DC shifts a little to the left - to sit in a three man defensive line in possession.

Before trying to build this, there is the question whether this is at all possible to set up?

 

 

 

BACKGROUND

The reason for this is due to using the strengths of my squad (lower tier). My best ranked players are a striker (target man), a decent playmaker (MC/AMC) and a solid DM who also can recycle possession well. My right back offers little going forward, whilst my left back is pretty much best when in attack...

After reviewing my squad, this is how I am thinking at the moment.

Defensive phase

- I want to defend with a 451 (with a DM, 2 MC and 2 ML/MR or AML/AMR)
- My central defensive is solidly strong and dominant in the air- but very slow. 
- So I need to sit deep, and I want my full backs to sit narrow, and play a DM, to avoid space centrally. I do not mind having lots of crosses and long balls against me. 

Transition phase

- My striker is a strong and slow target man-kind of player. He can hold the ball up well, and has decent passing/vision. 
- My main transition players are:
   my left winger (amlc/fc) (decent pace and work rate, decent technique and likes to cut inside)
   my boxtobox midfielder (MCr) (a determined and fairly quick player, with good long shots and fairly good passing/vision).
   my right winger (mr/amr) (good touch, dribbling and crossing)
- So counter attacks should involve this player on the run, with my SC as an outlet for holding up the ball and get these players involved before heading to the box.*
- My DMC is a calm presence and could very well be the one starting the play. My MCl is an experienced, skilled and intelligent player, so he could also do that (but is another quite slow player, so the others will need to supply the movement)

Attacking phase

- I need to keep my sole striker with company and get players in around him. My left winger will have to be his main attacking partner.
- From behind my MCr need to be another outlet for movements around my SC.
- I would be happy with getting a good amount of crosses in as my SC is one of the best players in the league when it comes to aerial powers.
- My DL and MR should keep the width and provide crosses. 
- My DMC and MCl is good passers and can pace the play and distribute the ball well.
- If I can't get crosses in, the play need to be built around my MCl to work as the playmarker, my SC to play with his back to the goal and hold up the ball and get the others involved, and particularly my AML and MCr to provide the movements to which they can play.
 

 

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DC-DC

WB-HB-WB

CM-CM

W(S)-IF(S)

S

IF with forward run on often. I believe this is the closest you can get to it. Alternatively, you can place your AML in the striker position but he got the man mark the opposition right midfielder.

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oyz   

Thanks. That might accomplish the switch from 3 to 4. My DM can also play as DC so that might work well, I don't really want buth a Winger and a Wing Back keeping the width, but perhaps that can be dealt with the WBR set to inverted wingback?

Although there is the issue of me wanting it to be det DR that enters the three-back-line, and not the DM. But while I have seen this done live, I see that it can be difficult to do in the game. I guess a new DR will have to be a priority. 

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WhyMe   

No tested this but in theory the following roles would do what you want (from left to right)

WB-a DC-d DC-d FB-d

               DM-s (PI hold position)

     DLP-s*       CM-a**

IF-a***                       W-s

             DLF-s****

 

Alternative roles

*CM-s if you don't want a play maker but might need hold position PI

** BtB-s with get further forward PI

*** Raumdeuter if you have the player

**** Defensive forward which you can PI to play how you want essentially will need hold up the ball

 

You might need to give either the DLP or DM a defend duty but with the full back on defend this will hopefully not be needed with the hold position PI's, you will need to experiment

You could also bring the wide players back to ML/MR and PI a wide midfielder to be an inside forward but it might well leave the forward a bit isolated, though you could just drop the winger back

It won't be a perfect 3-5-2 but hopefully it will get close.  Let me know if it works as I am now curious.

 

 

Edited by WhyMe

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viney   

Depending on how flexible you want to be with player positions I have an alternative method of doing this. I have been testing my idea with West Ham.

Rather than going for a traditional 4-5-1 I have gone with a tweaked formation that I think could work.

 

         Traditional                 |                  My Idea

                                               |

                 ST                          |                         ST

AML                     AMR          |                       AMC

          MC     MC                     |             MC     MC     MC

              DM                            |        WBL       DM       WBR

DL     DC     DC     DR             |                   DC     DC

               GK                            |                        GK

 

Goalkeeper and centre backs are standard in both formations, just use them as you normally would.

Instead of fullbacks, I've tried to use them both as complete wingbacks and taken out the 2 wide midfielders. The idea is that you move the right mid to right wingback if he is defensively solid enough and have your left back as the other wingback. They will both push forward and provide the width when you attack but should drop into a fairly normal back 4 when the opposition have the ball.

In my lineup I have set the defensive midfielder as an anchorman to hold his position and make the back 3 with the 2 centre backs while you attack.

Having moved the right mid to a wing back and removed the right back completely, we had a spare player so I decided to go with an extra central midfielder. With the 3 central midfielders I have set the two on the outside to be box-to-box midfielders and the central man is a roaming playmaker. The 3 central midfield players should form a solid block in front of the defence along with the anchorman while the opposition has the ball. They stay just ahead of the anchorman usually with 2 sitting and the other pressing the man on the ball.

I have put in the attacking midfielder instead of your left midfielder. If you think that he can play well cutting inside then maybe starting more centrally would also work for him. In my experiments I have used him as a secondary striker, feeding off balls from the creative players in midfield and anything that the target man can lay off to him. He doesn't offer a huge amount defensively but can be very useful on the counter attack when paired with the big man up front.

 

The shape of the team tends to look something like this for me so far:

 

Attacking

eced3172d4cfe25af0478f62d15ef286.png

 

Defending

0996909270df27a214e0ff671b3b8adf.png

 

If you wanted a flatter back 4 while you defend you could always move the wingbacks in line with the centre backs rather than pushed up like I have them.

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oyz   

Some interesting thoughts here. I'll experiment a bit, and see if I can get something sensible out of it.

I have tried having my DL as WBL with very attacking PI, while my DR sits narrow and stays behind. This accomplishes some parts of what I would like to do, but it still leaves too much a whole in behind my DL as the other three doesn't fully shift positions to cover the width. I am also working on the the attacking roles to avoid having my striker to isolated. With an AML inside forward (with PI to get him more forward and more centrally) and an MC with the role of advanced playermaker - attack (and the MCr as box-to-box, I seem to have got more use of the holding striker. 

About the "Raumdeuter"-option. In the lower leagues I have never seen any places who have this as a role they are marked by the game as being comfortable with. Is that a role that is only usable at high level football (as with some other roles too, which seems to need world class players, and not only players who are relatively very good for their level)? 

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WhyMe   
11 minutes ago, oyz said:

About the "Raumdeuter"-option. In the lower leagues I have never seen any places who have this as a role they are marked by the game as being comfortable with. Is that a role that is only usable at high level football (as with some other roles too, which seems to need world class players, and not only players who are relatively very good for their level)? 

The Raumdeuter is one of those roles that there is a CA minimum for it to be a recommended role (I think 130) much like the complete forward, but that doesn't mean that a player with less CA can't play the role effectively at an appropriate level.  The trick is getting a player with the appropriate distribution of attributes including off the ball, work rate and finishing.  Such a combination can be hard to find at the lower levels but it is possible.

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