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Why does SI underestimate sound ?

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FM's played while watching telly listening to Football on the Radio, there are few games that allow you to continue without pausing and do more than one thing at a time even trips to the bog can be made.

There is definitely an avenue here just think ''Everywhere you go'' could be generated to represent every English Club just like IRL. When I play as Arsenal I turn the sound off all devices and sit in total silence to reflect reality. 

Edited by Chinook2000

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Commentary would be a waste of investment and would multiply if you include languages

Chants - legal reasons

Crowd noises / clapping / cheering / booing - this for me is the way to ago.

 

Some suggestions

Derby / Rival matches - increased noise, more booing / clapping etc

Big Games such as finals etc = more noise. 

Big attendances = more noise

Subbed players with performance rating above x.x gets clapped when coming off

Clubs favourite players when coming on get cheered extra / or clapping

Variation in crowed noises from shots hitting woodwork, near misses, bad tackles, yellow and red cards, players hated by other clubs

More noise for home side scoring, slightly subdued noise for away side scoring

These in my opinion are small enhancements to the existing sounds so minimal time/effort investment but with enhanced game play experience. Accepting those that switch off the sound continue to do so those that dont like myself find it adds to the game but it does need some work. Evolution instead of revolution is often the way to go :) 

 

 

 

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It should be noted the OP said nothing about commentary or chants.  He said the in-match crowd noise is very dated and boring and could and should be improved.  He is right.  

SI has focused on improving 3D graphics, switching to roles and duties, etc., etc., doing a variety of things to make the game more realistic and enjoyable to play.  But why implement such changes if "a large chunk of users" don't want them?  Bring back the sliders.  Stop working on this 3D nonsense; a large chunk of users only want top down 2D view.  

Holding back on addressing obvious shortcomings or making improvements, because the mute and watch tv crowd doesn't want it, is a poor strategy.  The goal should be making the best game possible, not making a game that will not disturb the game player while he's watching tv.

 

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3 hours ago, MrPompey said:

Some suggestions

Derby / Rival matches - increased noise, more booing / clapping etc

Big Games such as finals etc = more noise. 

Big attendances = more noise

Subbed players with performance rating above x.x gets clapped when coming off

Clubs favourite players when coming on get cheered extra / or clapping

Variation in crowed noises from shots hitting woodwork, near misses, bad tackles, yellow and red cards, players hated by other clubs

More noise for home side scoring, slightly subdued noise for away side scoring

These in my opinion are small enhancements to the existing sounds so minimal time/effort investment but with enhanced game play experience. Accepting those that switch off the sound continue to do so those that dont like myself find it adds to the game but it does need some work. Evolution instead of revolution is often the way to go :) 

 

 

 

5

Completely agree with you mate. :thup: Your suggestions are fair, and not major in term of effort investment as you mentioned. But surely they will improve the game play experience/reality.

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2 hours ago, b28937 said:

It should be noted the OP said nothing about commentary or chants.  He said the in-match crowd noise is very dated and boring and could and should be improved.  He is right.  

SI has focused on improving 3D graphics, switching to roles and duties, etc., etc., doing a variety of things to make the game more realistic and enjoyable to play.  But why implement such changes if "a large chunk of users" don't want them?  Bring back the sliders.  Stop working on this 3D nonsense; a large chunk of users only want top down 2D view.  

Holding back on addressing obvious shortcomings or making improvements, because the mute and watch tv crowd doesn't want it, is a poor strategy.  The goal should be making the best game possible, not making a game that will not disturb the game player while he's watching tv.

 

Nonsense!!  2D watching  dots moving around is dull how many Football matches do you watch like that? 3D graphics are a far bigger seller than sounds. The game is as good with or without sounds. Without 3D it's a far worse game and about as appealing as a watching tiddlywinks.

The game as it is works for those who don't find the game appealing enough to have it as the sole source of entertainment. It's a game that can be played while doing many other things and can be enjoyed without disturbing others in the room with you. Therefore to many sounds are an irrelevance and would be an addition only a very few would enjoy. I know of nobody who plays FM with sound and wouldn't buy FM due to crowd noise.

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11 hours ago, b28937 said:

It should be noted the OP said nothing about commentary or chants.  He said the in-match crowd noise is very dated and boring and could and should be improved.  He is right.  

SI has focused on improving 3D graphics, switching to roles and duties, etc., etc., doing a variety of things to make the game more realistic and enjoyable to play.  But why implement such changes if "a large chunk of users" don't want them?  Bring back the sliders.  Stop working on this 3D nonsense; a large chunk of users only want top down 2D view.  

Holding back on addressing obvious shortcomings or making improvements, because the mute and watch tv crowd doesn't want it, is a poor strategy.  The goal should be making the best game possible, not making a game that will not disturb the game player while he's watching tv.

 

So they should just work on everything that anyone wants, even if the majority (not that I'm quantifying how many want this) wouldn't really use it?  Now that is a poor strategy.  Neglecting more deserving areas of the game just to improve the sounds would be an incredibly poor strategy.

You simply can't please everyone.  They've intimated before that they have a long, long, long list of features they'd like to get through.  They didn't even need to do that though, as someone who works in that area, any piece of software is going to have hundreds of things that either need changed or would be nice to change.  You can't do everything, so you have to prioritise.  Completely putting aside how many people would use it, where would you rank improving the sound in the game in terms of importance, when balanced against everything else that's wrong with the game.  And I mean everything - media interaction, continuing work on the ME, more animations, tweaking the database, completely new features, transfers, manager AI, staff advice...the list goes on.  It's a rhetorical question anyway, because we already have our answer.  It hasn't been improved in years, so obviously SI don't deem it very important.  That speaks volumes.

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11 hours ago, talhak said:

Completely agree with you mate. :thup: Your suggestions are fair, and not major in term of effort investment as you mentioned. But surely they will improve the game play experience/reality.

@talhak Thanks. No news yet on the FM2018 changes and to be honest unless already in then our crowd noise suggestions will be much too late for this year :)

@b28937 Fair point though I personally prefer the 3D graphics but I do I recall the text only commentary and sliders  - ahhh imagination :D. On the plus side SI do listen to comments made in the forums but of course many of us have differing views so it can be hard to please everyone

@Chinook2000 - I dont understand the logic of saying people wont buy FM due to crowd noise. For those that don't like it simply mute the sound. Maybe an idea for post vote...those that play with sound and those that dont. Might put this debate into perspective

@forameus - I agree with most of what you are saying. However for those that want it we are not talking about a major overhaul, simply an enhancement.  Yep I agree on its priority for many reasons that you say. However because it hasn't changed doesn't mean it wont. SI will have a strategy with changes mapped out over future years. Its a bit like "Oliver"..... if you don't ask you don't get. Of course if you do ask it wont mean you will get either as Oliver found out but at least you know the right people were listening ;)

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3 hours ago, MrPompey said:

@talhak Thanks. No news yet on the FM2018 changes and to be honest unless already in then our crowd noise suggestions will be much too late for this year :)

@b28937 Fair point though I personally prefer the 3D graphics but I do I recall the text only commentary and sliders  - ahhh imagination :D. On the plus side SI do listen to comments made in the forums but of course many of us have differing views so it can be hard to please everyone

@Chinook2000 - I dont understand the logic of saying people wont buy FM due to crowd noise. For those that don't like it simply mute the sound. Maybe an idea for post vote...those that play with sound and those that dont. Might put this debate into perspective

@forameus - I agree with most of what you are saying. However for those that want it we are not talking about a major overhaul, simply an enhancement.  Yep I agree on its priority for many reasons that you say. However because it hasn't changed doesn't mean it wont. SI will have a strategy with changes mapped out over future years. Its a bit like "Oliver"..... if you don't ask you don't get. Of course if you do ask it wont mean you will get either as Oliver found out but at least you know the right people were listening ;)

If you read the post I quoted they reckoned sound is more important than 3D view and SI should forget 3D in favour of it. The fact anyone can play the game mute shows this isn't true. They would increase a part of the game few use.

The game has to evolve to become more like watching Football. In 2D it is not like watching football it's like watching Draughts. Improving the game visually is far more important than the sound. 

A big selling point of this game is that it can be played while being able to so much more at the same time. 

Edited by Chinook2000

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@Chinook2000 - I did read it. On what basis do you determine few use sound in FM. Speculation or your personal view doesn't make it a fact.  I've made no mention of 2D but it was 2D as part of the games evolution prior to 3D, text only with sliders before 2D and somewhere in the text days we had commentary from a famous commentator for one season

Your statement "a big selling point is that it can be played while being able to do so much more..." is a major LOL to be honest :lol:. Again this may suit you and some others but not everyone :D My personal view is that this could only apply to matches, no other element of the game!  If you choose to do other things during matches thats your choice. That said its a strategy game and like most you can stop / start with no or minimal impact. Being "able to do other things" is most certainly is NOT a big selling point of the game, you can ask that of SI or SEGA but I look forward to you finding a box cover or advertisement confirming this

I personally do agree that evolution of the 3D engine is crucial

The OP title is "why does SI underestimate sound"

Remember how you play the game may not be the same as everyone else

Additionally to say people wouldn't buy FM due to crowd noise is a massive exaggeration :D . As I mentioned every device has a sound control button so I cant see this affecting too many people. Any game can be played mute if you don't like the sound

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47 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

@Chinook2000 - I did read it. On what basis do you determine few use sound in FM. Speculation or your personal view doesn't make it a fact. 

Probably the whole thing that every single time this gets brought up, a lot of people say they don't use sound in FM.

47 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

Additionally to say people wouldn't buy FM due to crowd noise is a massive exaggeration :D . As I mentioned every device has a sound control button so I cant see this affecting too many people. Any game can be played mute if you don't like the sound

But that's not really a workable attitude.  Anything they do to the game takes resources, and personally I'd rather it was spent doing something more important.  I'd love them to create a workable API.  99% of users would have no need for it, but I don't say it's a must have and "you wouldn't have to use it" because I know it's a niche function and the resources will be better used elsewhere.  I completely understand that some people would love to have it, but the "you can just turn it off" retort when anyone disagrees is tired and extremely limited.

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Sound - As Ive said you need facts not speculation and saying 99% of users don't have a need for it is again speculation on your part without fact

Enhancements - I work in IT and am faitrly senior in a global IT company. I say this not to boast but to allow you to know I'm pretty knowledgeable on how the process works.  You cant quote a % as 99% because 82.765% of statistics are made up :) Where is the evidence to substantiate it. Its the same as the injuries and yellow/red cards statements people make every version. I dont disagree that effort v result v game enhancement may make sound an area where investment may not be considered worth it. However this doesn't prevent nor should it people adding their 2 pence to what they would like. Simple changes may be easy, they may not be. The bad bit is people making assuming and statistics up to prove their point

They are many elements of the game that are marmite to specific users. Sound is likely one of a few  elements of the game that can be switched on or off.  You cant do that to say media questions, you can send your AM but you risk him saying things you wish he wouldn't. The retort you mention I made is in response to the statement that most people wouldn't buy the game if changes were made to the sound. In anyone's eyes that's not a sound statement and clearly without substantiated fact

One could argue that improvement to the stadium visuals instead could be effort spent elsewhere. My point really is that sound is an element which can enhance the immersity of playing the game, just like the visuals. You like the manager creation and customisation and watching the limited options of how the managers greet before the game (....note it can be skipped)? I'd personally rather sound be improved than having that added

If you read further up I've added some simple suggestions. For those that use sound it cold make the game better. For those that switch it off it makes no difference so its unlikely to prevent them buying the game

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Sound users may or may not be in the minority, but the suggestions by @MrPompey are ( in relative terms) simple ones that can have big positive impacts on the quality of life in FM. Certainly suggestions worth taking on by SI

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22 hours ago, Analog said:

The person designing the sound is not going to be the same person developing the ME or other features.  I don't get this argument.  We should want the best game SI has to offer, and that includes sounds, whether you choose to use them or not.  

I would like to take full credits for that comment, but can't. I didn't say it first. :p Also I was being ironic with my post.

Also I do understand that SI developing team is divided into smaller groups that tackle different aspects of the game.

What I say is, if they improved the sounds great, if they don't improve, I'm fine with that, because I always play FM with music.

As for SI offering the best game has to offer, well depends what features do you valuable most. I hate severaI features in FM and some are missing. You may have completely different opinion. I respect that.

However for me I would rather have a FM Touch Editor (at least like the current editor), then an improvement of sound. You might not agree with me and that is fine. We all like to help SI offer the best game that they can. But the issue is there will be no 100% consensus of what features should be improved or not.

Edited by grade

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On 8/8/2017 at 11:12, MrPompey said:

Crowd noises / clapping / cheering / booing - this for me is the way to ago.

 

Some suggestions

Derby / Rival matches - increased noise, more booing / clapping etc

Big Games such as finals etc = more noise. 

Big attendances = more noise

Subbed players with performance rating above x.x gets clapped when coming off

Clubs favourite players when coming on get cheered extra / or clapping

Variation in crowed noises from shots hitting woodwork, near misses, bad tackles, yellow and red cards, players hated by other clubs

More noise for home side scoring, slightly subdued noise for away side scoring

These in my opinion are small enhancements to the existing sounds so minimal time/effort investment but with enhanced game play experience. Accepting those that switch off the sound continue to do so those that dont like myself find it adds to the game but it does need some work. Evolution instead of revolution is often the way to go :) 

 

 

 

 

SI, please print and post on the wall(s) of whomever is responsible for look and feel of in-game match experience.

 

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I don't understand how some are wishing for better 'sound'. the problem is this game isn't played in real time. this way how can there be 'sound'.

a generic sound like how it is right now is perfect. 

if you want a better music, just go to youtube and type 'football manager background music' and you got a whole lot of playlist there for your 'IMMERSIVE' fm experience. 

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@upthetoon - I dont understand what you are saying. We know the match is generated prior to watching but we also know its regenerated during the match subject to sendings off, formation changes, tactic changes, subs etc. When the match is played / viewed then the sounds are played in relation to the match incidents. This is why there IS sound in relation to match events

You tube "music" will not match the FM game being played will it?

You may think its perfect, I think it can be improved - opinions isn't it ;)

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2 hours ago, MrPompey said:

@upthetoon - I dont understand what you are saying. We know the match is generated prior to watching but we also know its regenerated during the match subject to sendings off, formation changes, tactic changes, subs etc. When the match is played / viewed then the sounds are played in relation to the match incidents. This is why there IS sound in relation to match events

You tube "music" will not match the FM game being played will it?

You may think its perfect, I think it can be improved - opinions isn't it ;)

i hate when people say "everyone has right to have their own opinion". I mean, indeed, you have, but not all opinions are equally valid. for example, @upthetoon has an opinion, but it is obvious he has no idea what he is talking about. he doesn't know how the sound in the game works but he has an opinion. On the other hand, i'd really like to hear an opinion from somebody at SI.

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exactly - Who judges which opinions are more valid than others :D Some opinions have been made in this thread with out fact which really negates their point

In terms of SI comment I expect they will be busy with FM2018 tbh so will read it but not comment. 

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Or the SI lads could just record some original chants and add them in as an "Easter egg" that comes as a surprise when something happens in ye game. I have always like the idea of having some unique chants in the game. These don't have to be club related, but just something generic. I do admit its the one feature of the game that I would have loved. I know there's always going to be a debate one way or the other, but hell, hearing a surprise chant from nowhere, when the AI fails to score for the 10 game in a row against you, would be fun, if I could hear  a surprise chant, saying the opposition are all tossers.

And like people have said before each one of us is entitled to an opinion, whether its right or wrong.

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On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 22:26, MBarbaric said:

i hate when people say "everyone has right to have their own opinion". I mean, indeed, you have, but not all opinions are equally valid. for example, @upthetoon has an opinion, but it is obvious he has no idea what he is talking about. he doesn't know how the sound in the game works but he has an opinion. On the other hand, i'd really like to hear an opinion from somebody at SI.

i know what i'm talking about. 

The way the game is at the moment, sound should be in the bottom of the priority list. You can just turn off the sound and load your own music in the background. Priority should be in the ME & improving the AI squad management, Social media, press conference issues etc etc. there's a million things to work on but not sound.

 

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@upthetoon - The ME is only updated every other year, thats been confirmed by SI some time ago. Personally I dont enjoy listening to music if Im playing a footy game.

Sound is important to those that think it is. As mentioned its likely minimal effort. The danger in ignoring it is that it couid become the products weakest element, especially if 100% focus is given elsewhere. Anyway, maybe someone from SI will give a view when they have time

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7 hours ago, MrPompey said:

@upthetoon - The ME is only updated every other year, thats been confirmed by SI some time ago. Personally I dont enjoy listening to music if Im playing a footy game.

Sound is important to those that think it is. As mentioned its likely minimal effort. The danger in ignoring it is that it couid become the products weakest element, especially if 100% focus is given elsewhere. Anyway, maybe someone from SI will give a view when they have time

Think Neil has already said they would like to improve the sound if possible. 

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3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Think Neil has already said they would like to improve the sound if possible. 

Did you Neil ?

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On 8/7/2017 at 20:38, Neil Brock said:

Personally I think I'd always be against commentary 'sound' for FM, but definitely would love to see us improve the crowd and in-game sounds. 

Although as was said above, there does appear to be a large chunk of users of wouldn't use sound either way - they either have FM in the background when say watching TV etc, or prefer to play it with their own soundtrack. 

See above post from the first page

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On 05/08/2017 at 18:28, Dave C said:

Sound could undoubtedly improve but to use the OP's analogy it's less than 1% of what makes the game. You can play FM muted and lose basically nothing from the experience. So it's not worth the resource.

Commentary is a terrible idea if you apply just five minutes logical thought. Impossible to execute to the requisite level, so it must be left well alone. I'm old enough to remember the game that did try it, and there's a reason it remains a one-off.

DaveC - still around! You are a legend of this forum from days of yore, when York city were still a force. Man, I still think of you every time I see the poor club tumbling to unknown depths. How's the museum work going?

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4 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

DaveC - still around! You are a legend of this forum from days of yore, when York city were still a force. Man, I still think of you every time I see the poor club tumbling to unknown depths. How's the museum work going?

Cheers. Actually out of museums at the moment, working in education the past four years. Less fun, more money!

As for York City, I can barely believe the past few years. Never expected to be this low.

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On 08/08/2017 at 18:12, MrPompey said:

Commentary would be a waste of investment and would multiply if you include languages

Chants - legal reasons

Crowd noises / clapping / cheering / booing - this for me is the way to ago.

 

Some suggestions

Derby / Rival matches - increased noise, more booing / clapping etc

Big Games such as finals etc = more noise. 

Big attendances = more noise

Subbed players with performance rating above x.x gets clapped when coming off

Clubs favourite players when coming on get cheered extra / or clapping

Variation in crowed noises from shots hitting woodwork, near misses, bad tackles, yellow and red cards, players hated by other clubs

More noise for home side scoring, slightly subdued noise for away side scoring

These in my opinion are small enhancements to the existing sounds so minimal time/effort investment but with enhanced game play experience. Accepting those that switch off the sound continue to do so those that dont like myself find it adds to the game but it does need some work. Evolution instead of revolution is often the way to go :) 

Please remember to raise all of these in the feature request forums so they get picked up when we do our next 'feature sweep'. Cheers. 

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I like @MrPompey's suggestion.
I admit I would mute the sound in most of my matches throughout the season. But boy, if it was a rival match, Ch.League or any final, I would definitely use it...

 

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The point upthetoon made about it not being real time was nothing to do with how the match is generated.

Surely he means, like myself, any sounds would be hard to attribute to a particular player/passage of play ... as the game is not real time.

i.e. you hear a 3 second boo ... but whilst that boo occurs possession might have switched several times between teams/players (depending on what speed you play your match, and in which highlight mode).

It just becomes another half arsed feature, like social media, that many users wouldn't use. And yes, we can mute/turn it off... but would rather have fewer features of better quality, than a minefield of average/buggy features.

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7 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

The point upthetoon made about it not being real time was nothing to do with how the match is generated.

Surely he means, like myself, any sounds would be hard to attribute to a particular player/passage of play ... as the game is not real time.

i.e. you hear a 3 second boo ... but whilst that boo occurs possession might have switched several times between teams/players (depending on what speed you play your match, and in which highlight mode).

Yeah, you'd either have to only allow sound at certain speeds of play (and there's, what, 8 of them?) or modify the sounds so they always fit no matter what speeds of play no matter how ridiculous that would sound.  Or, like you say, the sound just never matches up.  None of those really achieve what has been aimed for.

9 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

It just becomes another half arsed feature, like social media, that many users wouldn't use. And yes, we can mute/turn it off... but would rather have fewer features of better quality, than a minefield of average/buggy features.

Mostly agree.  Although to be honest, I don't mind the "average/buggy" if they've pushed the boat out and tried something new.  Obviously I'd rather everything was ironed out and as close to airtight as possible, but for those that think SI lack innovation, I'd be interested to see what they would think of the game if that was the policy.  I don't mind them putting features in that have a longer-term roadmap to them, but I'd prefer if those things actually added something, rather than just window-dressing.

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19 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

The point upthetoon made about it not being real time was nothing to do with how the match is generated.

Surely he means, like myself, any sounds would be hard to attribute to a particular player/passage of play ... as the game is not real time.

i.e. you hear a 3 second boo ... but whilst that boo occurs possession might have switched several times between teams/players (depending on what speed you play your match, and in which highlight mode).

It just becomes another half arsed feature, like social media, that many users wouldn't use. And yes, we can mute/turn it off... but would rather have fewer features of better quality, than a minefield of average/buggy features.

I dont understand your point here about "real time" - I dont understand the point you make. You can watch the full match and every sound regardless of whether you watch it at 3pm on a saturday or not:) So, for example if you just watch the highlights then you will likely see kick offs, goals, near misses, key incidents etc which all can various sound attributes associated with the event. So the goal scoring home team would generate say more noise for a goal than the away team

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There is always a solution...
Assuming SI implemented the new sound system, if you tick the box "enable sounds", then you won't be able to switch modes during a match. Key mode? It's key mode for the particular match. Extended? Extended for the particular match. Etc..
That way, the sound can always match the different phases of play.
And don't forget that the outcome of the match is generated before, so, it's not that hard to adjust the sound to a particular phase of play...

Edited by ilkork

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28 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

I dont understand your point here about "real time" - I dont understand the point you make

Sorry by real time I mean you would have to watch the game in normal speed setting and full match (never done it but I assume this would mean the equivalent of a real match i.e. it would last 90 mins).

I watch the game in Extended and just 2 or 3 clicks off full speed. For me therefore, commentary would be completely impossible (it would either be out of sync or sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks as it would be in fast forward mode). Chants/reactionary boo or cheer, wouldn't be viable as the trigger point would often be obscured, or by the time a chant is triggered the passage of play would have moved on significantly. 

It would be hard to identify who/what a chant or noise was associated to.

Also I guess I can see/think of the enhanced solution ... and it would boil down to a finite list of songs or reactions and it would quickly become as monotonous and annoying as football chants in real life. I'd imagine you would get through every iteration of sound within a handful of matches ... then possibly a few rarer ones as you start to win competitions or get in finals etc. 

With any added layer of coding and data you run the risk of crashes, lag, bugs etc ... for the outcome I don't see that the benefits would ever outweigh the risks (or simply the lack of user base demand for this feature).  

A bit like the Social feed ... if commentary and social feed were perfect, in my opinion, as a feature they would have to have completely free thinking AI. Creating realistic conversations and reactions to each FM save's football world. As recently came to view, even Facebook, with it's multi million pound investments into AI, couldn't create a sensible conversation between Robots that made any sense to the observers.

 

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4 minutes ago, ilkork said:

And don't forget that the outcome of the match is generated before, so, it's not that hard to adjust the sound to a particular phase of play...

Well, not the whole match, but you get my point.

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@westy8chimp - Thanks for clarifying, I think I was a bit thick not understanding that

Yep I agree with you and with @ilkork that the sound bytes would need to be for specific speeds subject to what level you play the game. Its not necessarily straight forward but would be akin to what we currently have. Evolution rather the revolution perhaps

Oh I have raised my earlier post "suggestions" in the suggestions thread as Neil requested. Too late for this year anyway obviously

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If I remember correctly, I haven't used sound in a couple of years, currently we just have a generic crowd sound throughout, and it turns to a cheer for goals. Is that it, or is there a boo for red card?

Very few instances of sound variation though, right?

Even in it's limited state I never used it - not just because it's limited or I watch TV whilst playing etc... but because it sounds so unnatural. There is a cheer for the goal still going while the match clock might have advanced 20 minutes (due to lack of highlights in Extended mode) then it suddenly stops... rather than fades away.

To go from that state to a model where it realises; trends in your teams form, reacts to how a player has been viewed in the media, reacts realistically to every match situation, adjusts according to attendance/match importance/rivalries, recognises when the team has done a 'children for a pound' fan day, has songs individual to the team and/or it's opponent...

All whilst the ME is being recalculated 8 times per second (or whatever it's at now) ... and be able to play the sound in the same time scale of the match with no delay...

Seems a lot to ask. Especially as the Social Media feature needs ££££££££££££ and time thrown at it to make it even remotely fun :D 

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7 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

it would boil down to a finite list of songs or reactions and it would quickly become as monotonous and annoying as football chants in real life.

Well, as an adult now, I find chants that contain swearing, a bit silly. Although, I grew up with that, and I would definitely enable that feature in rival matches, finals, etc.
Off the top of my head I can think of about 15-20 chants the Olympiacos fans sing, so it won't be thaaaat monotonous.
And the fact that they contain swearing shouldn't be a problem for SI. Just add a box to tick/untick when you set up your database, with a disclaimer "if you are under 18, we strongly advise you to disable chants as they contain swearing", or something like that...
 

1 minute ago, westy8chimp said:

Seems a lot to ask.

Maybe you are right, I don't know...

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7 minutes ago, ilkork said:

There is always a solution...
Assuming SI implemented the new sound system, if you tick the box "enable sounds", then you won't be able to switch modes during a match. Key mode? It's key mode for the particular match. Extended? Extended for the particular match. Etc..
That way, the sound can always match the different phases of play.
And don't forget that the outcome of the match is generated before, so, it's not that hard to adjust the sound to a particular phase of play...

Just because there's always a solution doesn't mean there necessarily should be.  I'd imagine there are plenty who'd like to use enhanced sounds.  Whether it's a majority or minority is a tedious debate, but whatever their number, I'd imagine interest would wane if the speed they played the game at was dictated to them.   It makes a niche feature even niche-r.

1 minute ago, westy8chimp said:

If I remember correctly, I haven't used sound in a couple of years, currently we just have a generic crowd sound throughout, and it turns to a cheer for goals. Is that it, or is there a boo for red card?

Very few instances of sound variation though, right?

Even in it's limited state I never used it - not just because it's limited or I watch TV whilst playing etc... but because it sounds so unnatural. There is a cheer for the goal still going while the match clock might have advanced 20 minutes (due to lack of highlights in Extended mode) then it suddenly stops... rather than fades away.

To go from that state to a model where it realises; trends in your teams form, reacts to how a player has been viewed in the media, reacts realistically to every match situation, adjusts according to attendance/match importance/rivalries, recognises when the team has done a 'children for a pound' fan day, has songs individual to the team and/or it's opponent...

All whilst the ME is being recalculated 8 times per second (or whatever it's at now) ... and be able to play the sound in the same time scale of the match with no delay...

Seems a lot to ask. Especially as the Social Media feature needs ££££££££££££ and time thrown at it to make it even remotely fun :D 

Basically this.  Nothing is ever just a simple change, and some of the features suggested - while not bad by any means - are far from simple.  The way you've described it would be very interesting, and give life to the match experience (still wouldn't use it personally, though) but it's a huge undertaking.  And if FM18 - or whatever version - gets released and they say they've spent considerable resources on adding this, whilst features like press conferences, media, interaction (add whatever feature you personally think needs work) I'd be pretty annoyed.  Because make no mistake, short of expanding the team considerably (which is unlikely by all accounts it seems) then this would be something that would take up large amounts of resources.  Something else will suffer.

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On a slightly related note, is there a resolution high enough to contain all the check-boxes people have asked for with a "if you don't like it, make it optional" comment?  Must be numbering in the hundreds by now.

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I go back to my Oliver quote "Please sir can I have some more?"

As fans, users and buyers of the game SI will listen to want we want. Development and Implementation are of course a different kettle of fish. However its fair to say that much of today's current game version has been influenced by what we as users have requested

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@forameuss you always disagree with whatever I say, as if you are a stubborn kid. Yet, this is what you said earlier:

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

Although to be honest, I don't mind the "average/buggy" if they've pushed the boat out and tried something new.  Obviously I'd rather everything was ironed out and as close to airtight as possible, but for those that think SI lack innovation, I'd be interested to see what they would think of the game if that was the policy.  I don't mind them putting features in that have a longer-term roadmap to them, but I'd prefer if those things actually added something, rather than just window-dressing.

So, what's your problem with making something optional?
I agree that, making me stick to a specific mode for the particular match (if I enable chants), is not the best solution. But since there are issues to sort out, at least I prefer that for start, even if it limits me to a specific mode for the upcoming match. And I don't say that it should be locked for every match, just for the upcoming. We should always be able to turn it off pre/after every match.

As for features, that's what SI does. They start with something, and they upgrade it as the years go by...

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6 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

I go back to my Oliver quote "Please sir can I have some more?"

As fans, users and buyers of the game SI will listen to want we want. Development and Implementation are of course a different kettle of fish. However its fair to say that much of today's current game version has been influenced by what we as users have requested

If they listened to everything users said the game would be a confused, contradictory mess.  You'd also be able to Sims it up and spend all your wages on pointless filler.  

I'd say SI know full well when to listen and when to disregard.  They have their own plans in mind, by all means open to change, but it's hardly the house that fans built.

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3 minutes ago, ilkork said:

@forameuss you always disagree with whatever I say, as if you are a stubborn kid. Yet, this is what you said earlier:

So, what's your problem with making something optional?
I agree that, making me stick to a specific mode for the particular match (if I enable chants), is not the best solution. But since there are issues to sort out, at least I prefer that for start, even if it limits me to a specific mode for the upcoming match. And I don't say that it should be locked for every match, just for the upcoming. We should always be able to turn it off pre/after every match.

As for features, that's what SI does. They start with something, and they upgrade it as the years go by...

Or maybe I just disagree with most of what you say, rather than any ulterior motive.  I wouldn't let it get to you.  Saying something I agree with and I'll likely post about agreeing with it.  I believe I've disagreed pretty vehemently with westy8chimp on various topics, but largely agree with him on this.  It's nice that you think I'm somehow singling you out for disagreement, but it's unfortunately not the case.

I have no inherent problem with making things optional (even though it's become almost meme-like in how it gets trotted out for each and every feature).  My problem has always, always been that SI are a small team with limited resources and that working on one thing will mean another one suffers.  I can think of many, many things that I'd rather see given time than things like this.  Optionality is totally and utterly irrelevant because whether there's a tick-box or not, someone has spent time and resources on working on it.  Is that really that hard to understand?

Edited by forameuss

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They DO listen to everything the users say. They DONT develop everything the users ask ;)

In terms of your final statement you really have to understand the history of the game to understand why your statement is not quite right. I have personally had every version since the original on the Amiga when that version was created by 2 brothers in a bedroom

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1 minute ago, forameuss said:

I can think of many, many things that I'd rather see given time than things like this.  Optionality is totally and utterly irrelevant because whether there's a tick-box or not, someone has spent time and resources on working on it.

Of course there are other more crucial features that need work. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss any potential features...
What, should we wait till 2020 to open the "Why does SI underestimate sound" thread?

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1 minute ago, MrPompey said:

They DO listen to everything the users say. They DONT develop everything the users ask ;)

In terms of your final statement you really have to understand the history of the game to understand why your statement is not quite right. I have personally had every version since the original on the Amiga when that version was created by 2 brothers in a bedroom

Good for you.  What's not right about it?  SI have built a game in their image.  At many points fan ideas have come into it, never said they didn't, but the way you're describing it is like SI are trawling for ideas when they could - and do - fill their ticketing systems with enough features to last them for the next four or five versions.  A lot of ideas will mesh with plans SI had, and a few will be completely new and got added.  The core short-to-midterm plan likely doesn't change.

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LOL - I never suggested at all the SI were trawling for ideas. They will listen to ideas and consider them - thats the point

@ilkork exactly :D

 

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1 minute ago, ilkork said:

Of course there are other more crucial features that need work. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss any potential features...
What, should we wait till 2020 to open the "Why does SI underestimate sound" thread?

Where did I say you couldn't discuss it?  Or should I not be allowed to add anything unless it's a big thumbs up?  

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10 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Where did I say you couldn't discuss it?  Or should I not be allowed to add anything unless it's a big thumbs up?  

There was no point in your post, because, as you said earlier:

20 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I'd say SI know full well when to listen and when to disregard.  They have their own plans in mind, by all means open to change, but it's hardly the house that fans built.

SI will definitely listen. Are they going to implement it right away? No.
They will take their time, because they decide after all.

So, our part is to make the suggestion. Even if it's not well thought out, even if other features need more work at the moment...
End of argument.

Edited by ilkork

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9 minutes ago, ilkork said:

There was no point in your post, because, as you said earlier:

SI will definitely listen. Are they going to implement it right away? No.
They will take their time, because they decide after all.

So, our part is to make the suggestion. Even if it's not well thought, even if other features need more work at the moment...
End of argument.

So you are saying that I just shouldn't be allowed to say anything that disagrees.  Nice.

The best features are going to be the ones that have actual discussion, not just "we should do this" and a chorus of +1s.  I'm honestly not posting for any other reason than to actually discuss it.  I'm happy to be proved wrong on anything.  In particular, there was a thread on changes to International management.  Hasn't had much discussion, but I asked a few questions, raised a few issues around suggestions, which gets discussion going.  I've been persuaded on a few points I originally disagreed on.  Do you not think that's how SI deal with feature meetings?  I would be very surprised if there wasn't some degree of at least one person poking every hole they can find in a feature before they even begin to think about working on it.  So what's wrong with doing that here?  That hasn't happened here.  Not to say that really matters, but there's only really one side here saying that someone shouldn't say something, and it isn't me.

So to summarise, there are absolutely no issues with suggesting/discussing anything to do with this feature.  Just like there's nothing wrong with someone saying they disagree.

Edited by forameuss

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