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pukfm

Is Training the worst part of FM ?

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I don't want to sound harsh, but "training" is what i dislike most in FM.

In Real Life, a manager use most of his time on the training ground ! Training is the biggest part of the managers job.

When I start a new save game, i use about 15 minutes to set up some things in the training screen - and that's about it ! 

I use lot if time in the Tactics, and Scouting screen - but training does NOT play a big part in my game !! I barely use it at all !

I think training and tactic should be linked together and play an essential role together !

I don't need 3d training or something like that, but when you play FM, you should feel that training is a EVERYDAY THING and PLAYS a tremendous, huge and giant role of your manager job !!

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3 minutes ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

I can think of 23 things that are far worse than training in FM.

Name some of them please..

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Miles has said in the past that training is an area that needs improvement but that they don't know which direction to take it as one time they did  it differently it got slated so I would expect it to change sometime

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depends how good you are at training lol. a lot of people get better results because they go a lot more in depth about there players development. plenty of threads explaining different ways to get results in progression and develop different styles of player that you wont probably get if it only takes 15 minutes

agree it could see some improvement, but no where near the worst part of the game

if you analyse your opponent to maximize results, then change match prep accordingly, it can make a difference to a result. depends on how far you want to go into small details.

in real life, i would imagine most match prep is the same as tactical tweaks in fm. trying to cover weaknesses or take advantage of a weaker team etc

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Just now, pukfm said:

Name some of them please..

1. Defensive Forwards.

2. 3 at the back formations.

3. Two banks of four behaving like a Chinese fire drill.

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3 minutes ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

1. Defensive Forwards.

2. 3 at the back formations.

3. Two banks of four behaving like a Chinese fire drill.

So you think Match engine is the worst part of FM ?

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2 minutes ago, pukfm said:

Name some of them please..

all media

repetitive press conferences

boards finding silly negatives 

fan reactions to transfers not always realising if the player has played or good enough

players contract requests

getting grey (not real) keepers in youth intake

just a few that have annoyed me this weekend 

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Training is one of those areas where SI are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Many users don't really give a monkey's about Training and delegate some/all Training tasks to other members of staff and would hate the idea of a more complex Training module.

Others like the balance of where it is at present.

Still more (such as the OP) would love to see more detail going into Training.

So how do you change things?  Whichever direction is taken will result in a large group of people being pleased, but another large group being made unhappy.  However, if you ( @pukfm) have any specific ideas in how you feel Training could be enhanced, head over to the Feature Requests forum and raise them there :thup:.

One thing I will specifically mention though:

34 minutes ago, pukfm said:

I think training and tactic should be linked together and play an essential role together !

This is already the case.  Tactical systems and training your players are already intrinsically linked. 

If you don't train your players in such a way to help give them the tools they need in order to carry out their assigned roles, duties and tactical settings (ie., improving relevant attributes and Traits) you won't consistently get the most out of your tactical system.

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18 hours ago, pukfm said:

I think training and tactic should be linked together and play an essential role together !

What makes you think they aren't linked already?

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19 hours ago, herne79 said:

Training is one of those areas where SI are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Many users don't really give a monkey's about Training and delegate some/all Training tasks to other members of staff and would hate the idea of a more complex Training module.

Others like the balance of where it is at present.

Still more (such as the OP) would love to see more detail going into Training.

So how do you change things?  Whichever direction is taken will result in a large group of people being pleased, but another large group being made unhappy.  However, if you ( @pukfm) have any specific ideas in how you feel Training could be enhanced, head over to the Feature Requests forum and raise them there :thup:.

One thing I will specifically mention though:

This is already the case.  Tactical systems and training your players are already intrinsically linked. 

If you don't train your players in such a way to help give them the tools they need in order to carry out their assigned roles, duties and tactical settings (ie., improving relevant attributes and Traits) you won't consistently get the most out of your tactical system.

Agree with you here and OP to an extent.

 

Yes training IRL is a much more key part of a football managers job but to simulate what you see IRL, it would involve a match engine with of hours of each training session, picking up on players performances and whether they should start in the next game.

 

Me personally I like it as it is, maybe it could do with a daily training report? How your strikers are finishing in bounce games ahead of a match?

It's a hard one to resemble.

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3 hours ago, j_morrissey1990 said:

Agree with you here and OP to an extent.

 

Yes training IRL is a much more key part of a football managers job but to simulate what you see IRL, it would involve a match engine with of hours of each training session, picking up on players performances and whether they should start in the next game.

 

Me personally I like it as it is, maybe it could do with a daily training report? How your strikers are finishing in bounce games ahead of a match?

It's a hard one to resemble.

I think a weekly detailed training report would be useful.

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2 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

What would you like to see?

I would like to see things like who had looked sharp in training that week, who had looked jaded, who is carrying slight knocks, who has had a good attitude during the week, who hasn't,.  Who has shown a good understanding of the things worked on during the week and who hasn't.  There are a whole range of things that could be included in a weekly training report and idealy these things will have an impact on upcoming matches.

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On 30/07/2017 at 13:29, herne79 said:

Many users don't really give a monkey's about Training and delegate some/all Training tasks to other members of staff and would hate the idea of a more complex Training module.

Those users - however simple or complex - will probably continue to do so.  So long as there is a way to still delegate the task with relative success I don't see complexity being a problem.

There doesn't seem all that much you can do and control day by day or week by week.  Most things take months, a season, or even several seasons to come to fruition.  More involvement in some way would be a good thing.  So long as it's the manager's choice to enjoy doing it, and not feel they're missing too much if they don't feel that way inclined, which the game seems to do pretty well at so far with a lot of the responsibilities.  I only do individual player development and leave my overall team training to my assistant.  It's comforting to know that things won't catch fire if I don't tend to them personally.

But the system works and does a hell of a job doing something that must be incredibly hard to replicate and make sense of in game terms, and also remain fun to do.

I can think of one other area that is probably worse than training (at least training works).  Set Pieces, notoriously inflexible.

 

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32 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

What would you like to see?

I've asked for a simulator in the form of a training ground ME so you can replicate instances such as set pieces and attack/defend scenarios.  I described the pro's and cons as to why repetition it training and the flexibility to trial an error would be a good thing in a post in the suggestions forum.

These wouldn't impact development but would give the manager an opportunity to cast an eye over a lot of tactical decisions to tweak things.  Friendlies just don't cut it, to see several instances of scenarios - and not just the successful ones would take too long to do, and so infrequent that you'd have to keep a diary of notes recording them all to keep an eye out for certain things you're hoping to achieve.

Some suggested that this would give the player a tool to "work out systems".  Isn't that what teams on the training grounds do week in week out? try stuff out and observe if it's working?  That's management, they're not cheating.

Surely the game can't be so rudimentary that it'd give away some kind of code through observing so many instances of something.  Besides, if you can do it - albeit incredibly time consuming - observing games, then it's not introducing something that isn't already available, it's just making it more convenient for the user to learn and test.  And even so, anything they would learn by trial and error would only be specific to the players they have available to them and anything their imagination is willing to try.  It wouldn't be an exploit tool because every club situation is different.  

You use the training ground to find your strengths and weaknesses (as someone pointed out) and then you put those to best effect during a match.  Still doesn't stop other teams having their own strengths and weaknesses.

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Training is made for the managers to know who is up to the task, who is not.  Training is made for managers to know who is good in a particular way or isn't. Trainig is also made to "mould" somehow a player to your needs.

Problem is: we already know all the players from A to Z. You already know every strenghs and every weaknesses of every players. You know your RB#1 is 17 acceleration and 15 pace, and your RB#2 is 14 acceleration and 16 pace. No need to put them to the test in training.

 

I guess you see my point...

 

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39 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I would like to see things like who had looked sharp in training that week, who had looked jaded, who is carrying slight knocks, who has had a good attitude during the week, who hasn't,.  Who has shown a good understanding of the things worked on during the week and who hasn't.  There are a whole range of things that could be included in a weekly training report and idealy these things will have an impact on upcoming matches.

+1 :thup:

I agree !

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2 minutes ago, SpecialOne Miko said:

I guess you see my point...

 

I see your point and completely disagree. Knowing your players' attributes does not mean you therefore know how that will translate with your tactical instructions.  It's too late to be realising on match day that actually that instruction doesn't look anything like you intended it to.

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9 minutes ago, SpecialOne Miko said:

Problem is: we already know all the players from A to Z. You already know every strenghs and every weaknesses of every players. You know your RB#1 is 17 acceleration and 15 pace, and your RB#2 is 14 acceleration and 16 pace. No need to put them to the test in training.

 

Also, manager's pretty much have a damn good idea of this IRL.  It might not be a figure you can put on it but they know their players' capabilities.  It doesn't stop them experimenting with different styles in training.

Edited by borivoje213

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Just now, borivoje213 said:

I see your point and completely disagree. Knowing your players' attributes does not mean you therefore know how that will translate with your tactical instructions.  It's too late to be realising on match day that actually that instruction doesn't look anything like you intended it to.

I didnt talk about tactics, despite that, I agree with your statement. 

Anyway, my point was about players performances. All the informations we have on the players are informations we would have after repeated training sessions. All the Physical, Mental, and technical stats and PPMs. You should need to see the player during trainig to assess that.

 

About tactics, we should be able to see what our instructions do exactly to our team shape during attacking phase, defensive phase and transition phase, before starting a match. On that I think we agree.

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6 minutes ago, SpecialOne Miko said:

Anyway, my point was about players performances. All the informations we have on the players are informations we would have after repeated training sessions. All the Physical, Mental, and technical stats and PPMs. You should need to see the player during trainig to assess that.

Yeah it wouldn't tell you anything about any individual player that you don't already know.  That's what the player profile is all about.  But to actually test how that player and the team as a whole goes about carrying out your tactical instructions in a game would be beneficial.

It would tell you a lot more about your own choices and decisions than anything else, something to learn from.

Edited by borivoje213

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@pukfm To me, the worst area is the media and interactions in general. But that is covered here in great detail.
 

6 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

What would you like to see?

1) I would like to be able to train in more than one area every week.
Where in the world have you seen a manager going "Hey lads, this week we will train in ball control only"?

2) Same thing for match preparation.
Why do you limit us to one area only? I would like to be able to train in attacking movement and defensive positioning for the upcoming match!
One day for each area.

3) Set-pieces.
When Ernesto Valverde managed Olympiacos (2010-2012), he became known as a master of set-pieces. Why? Because he would exploit this area with his intelligence. Examples:

Spoiler

A. Check at 00:40.

B. Check at 00:08 and at 00:52 (not 100% sure if the second one qualifies as an exploit, or a regular free-kick)

C. Check at 02:05.

 

I would like to be able to train for set-pieces the same way. And along with tactical familiarity, maybe have the similar scenarios replicated in the match engine.

4) Tiki-taka. Sort of.
I would like to be able to train my players to play quick passes, one-twos and then quickly find spaces to exploit. Of course, this ties down to attributes.
Something like this:

Spoiler

Check at 02:58.

 


Can't think of something else atm, but training is one of the many areas that could become a lot better.

Edited by ilkork

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I've said for years that training needs a massive overhaul.

Once you have setup your tactics, corners and all that - you should be able to go to the training ground and try out the tactics, corners, penalites, free kick takers and other things.

To get SI started -

Penalty Shootouts (help goalkeepers and penalty takers)
Free Kicks (wall setup, free kick takers, setup a dummy runner, etc.)
Offside Trap (offensive and defensive)
Shot Stopping
Corners

One attacker vs 2 defenders and goalkeeper
Two attackers vs 1 defender and 1 goalkeeper

Wingers crossing - drill and float drills
 

There's loads of things - and it should be taken to the training ground to help build tactics. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Smurf said:

I've said for years that training needs a massive overhaul.

Once you have setup your tactics, corners and all that - you should be able to go to the training ground and try out the tactics, corners, penalites, free kick takers and other things.

To get SI started -

Penalty Shootouts (help goalkeepers and penalty takers)
Free Kicks (wall setup, free kick takers, setup a dummy runner, etc.)
Offside Trap (offensive and defensive)
Shot Stopping
Corners

One attacker vs 2 defenders and goalkeeper
Two attackers vs 1 defender and 1 goalkeeper

Wingers crossing - drill and float drills
 

There's loads of things - and it should be taken to the training ground to help build tactics.

But how would any of that link to the ME and what happens in a match?

There has to be:

A) A link between training, the players attributes & the ME &

B) Training must not be something we have to watch because 99% of users wouldn't bother with it.

With B in mind all those things you listed technically happen now but they are all behind the scenes in some regard.

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7 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

B) Training must not be something we have to watch because 99% of users wouldn't bother with it.

But where are you getting this stat from?

I agree with you that the user should not HAVE to watch anything in the sense that they are forced to do so in order to progress, but having the option of seeing things would be positive and far more than 1% of users would probably enjoy it.

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Just now, YKW said:

But where are you getting this stat from?

I agree with you that the user should not HAVE to watch anything in the sense that they are forced to do so in order to progress, but having the option of seeing things would be positive and far more than 1% of users would probably enjoy it.

Whilst tongue in cheek we both know from many previous threads on the subject that any user that watches games in anything more than key highlights is in a small minority.

Taking that a step further to training and it would be a much smaller % would use it more than a handful of times.

Just think back to all the different training setups SI have had in FM over the last 20 years, most notably the one where you set the different training routine for each hour.  How many users actually went back and changed it on a regular basis?  The answer is next to none.  Most set it up when they joined a team and then left it with setups regularly being downloaded off the net.

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23 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Couldn't think of anything worse than watching my players do drills.

Do like the line of thinking Ilkork mentioned though

With all due respect, Ilkork's comment does not make sense to me. And it shouldn't to you, as well imo. Why? If I recall correctly, he's asked those questions before, and the answer he got was that ''THOSE WERE TRAINING FOCUSES" not 'training in one area'. And it's simple enough for any sensible person to understand and remember. He's been on the forum long enough and played the game long enough to know that those things are areas to focus training. This iis why I hate these sorts of threads. There have been some good ideas, then someone comes and litters it with rubbish. The players are training everyday in ALL areas. The user is then given a chance to fine-tune the training. It's simple

Edited by samuelawachie

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13 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Whilst tongue in cheek we both know from many previous threads on the subject that any user that watches games in anything more than key highlights is in a small minority.

Taking that a step further to training and it would be a much smaller % would use it more than a handful of times.

Just think back to all the different training setups SI have had in FM over the last 20 years, most notably the one where you set the different training routine for each hour.  How many users actually went back and changed it on a regular basis?  The answer is next to none.  Most set it up when they joined a team and then left it with setups regularly being downloaded off the net.

To be honest I'm going to have to take your word on all of those things, as I only know how I personally play/have played the game. I'm guessing SI have mentioned these stats in the past which is how you know. Thanks for the info.

What I would say is that I feel the interpretation of the stats could be up for debate. For instance if next to nobody went back and changed the training on a regular basis how would you know that this is because people didn't want to do any more than that? An alternative explanation is that the feature wasn't fun. So why go back and change it regularly if it's more fun to ignore it? A similar but more current example would be the sounds in the game. I'm sure I remember hearing from SI (in the context of improving the sounds) that it wasn't a priority because a significant proportion of users play with the sounds off. On the one hand if the majority of people play with the sounds off then that could imply that people don't want better sounds. But I believe a more sensible interpretation in this respect is to say that people play with the sounds off because the sounds in the game are terrible, and only diminish the immersion (for example playing in front of 50 people compared to 50,000 is largely identical.)

I have no issue taking your word in terms of the statistics and regarding them as facts. However I think you are failing to acknowledge that the statistics are facts but the interpretations of them are not.

If a 3D training environment wouldn't be fun to add the game then that's just the way it is. However I feel that dismissing it on the basis that no-one would use it is illogical, and not a valid argument. This is especially true because it is the concept that is being rejected outright rather than specific features/mechanisms which obviously haven't been outlined yet.

If the 3D training environment included a way of seeing your tactics in action allowing you to evolve them outside of matches then what proportion of people would use it then? Quite a few in my opinion, but that's only a guess. Of course if you consider the concept as just "watching players doing drills" then it would only appeal to a small minority of people.

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4 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

With all due respect, Ilkork's comment does not make sense to me. And it shouldn't to you, as well imo. Why? If I recall correctly, he's asked those questions before, and the answer he got was that ''THOSE WERE TRAINING FOCUSES" not 'training in one area'. And it's simple enough for any sensible person to understand and remember. He's been on the forum long enough and played the game long enough to know that those things are areas to focus training. This iis why I hate these sorts of threads. There have been some good ideas, then someone comes and litters it with rubbish. The players are training everyday in ALL areas. The user is then given a chance to fine-tune the training. It's simple

Its the aim of having various areas to focus on, rather than watching my players try and curl a ball into the net during training.

Essentially I'd like more feedback, more streamlining of coaching requirements (which I think are overkill right now), more flexibility in the attributes you can train

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Forgetting the 3D side of things, I think these are some important issues that changes to training should look to address.

1. Lack of documentation/understanding of attribute combinations

2. Difficulty of understanding tactical instructions

3. Lack of relevance to real life/no ability to learn about real life coaching.

4. Lack of a substantial link to tactics

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52 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

But how would any of that link to the ME and what happens in a match?

There has to be:

A) A link between training, the players attributes & the ME &

B) Training must not be something we have to watch because 99% of users wouldn't bother with it.

With B in mind all those things you listed technically happen now but they are all behind the scenes in some regard.

I wouldn't want to watch training.  Apart from match prep I leave the training to my assistant, however I would like to see a weekly training report from him.  Lets use England as an example the report might say "Vardy has demonstrated a poor understanding of tactics this week, Rashford has shown an excellent attitude this week, Ward Prowse hasn't looked interested.  I quite agree  there would have to be a link from this report to the ME and the effect that this report would have on your team selection and tactics chosen

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1 minute ago, YKW said:

Forgetting the 3D side of things, I think these are some important issues that changes to training should look to address.

1. Lack of documentation/understanding of attribute combinations

2. Difficulty of understanding tactical instructions

3. Lack of relevance to real life/no ability to learn about real life coaching.

4. Lack of a substantial link to tactics

Yep, all these would be far more impactful than watching them train

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@Cougar2010 We agree that a lot of people won't use it. But some people will.
Some people don't even bother to set up routines in set-pieces. But I do. And it means that I have a slight advantage over someone who doesn't. Right?
Likewise, I would like to be given the option to train in some things. It's ok if you don't use it, not the end of the world. But I will use it, and it means that I will have a slight advantage over the AI.
 

9 minutes ago, samuelawachie said:

With all due respect, Ilkork's comment does not make sense to me.

But why? Care telling me? What exactly don't you like?
The "be able to train in more than one area during the week"?
The "be able to train in more than one area for the upcoming match"?
The "be able to train in set-piece exploits"?
Or the "be able to train in something like tiki-taka"?

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Yep, all these would be far more impactful than watching them train

What would be impactful?

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4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

What would you like to see?

If we at least could get a detailed training report every week, with info about how well the players are up to the upcomming match ! How sharp and motivated is my players for the upcomming game, who looks jaded, who could potentially be injured, player with fantastic attitude during the week etc. etc.,.  Who has shown a good understanding of the training during the week and who hasn't.  What did probably work in training sessions, what didn't. There are so much you could add to the weekly training report and idealy these things will have a HUGE impact on upcoming matches and tactics.

Edited by pukfm

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Personally, I'd like a more detailed training system, but more importantly, more information too. What form it should take, I have no idea. As training is now, I'm not too interested in it. I set it up once a season and then leave it alone for the rest of that season, unless I buy another player. I know I'll definitely watch my players train once or twice, if that's ever implemented, but it's going to have to be very interesting for me to keep watching... and this from someone who watches every match on Comprehensive and has no issues with watching full matches. This is the issue for SI. It won't make much sense to devote a lot of hours to making something that won't be used very often, so whatever is implemented, should be something that a lot would use at least. I'm sure more can be done with training without having to watch players.

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13 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Personally, I'd like a more detailed training system, but more importantly, more information too. What form it should take, I have no idea. As training is now, I'm not too interested in it. I set it up once a season and then leave it alone for the rest of that season, unless I buy another player. I know I'll definitely watch my players train once or twice, if that's ever implemented, but it's going to have to be very interesting for me to keep watching... and this from someone who watches every match on Comprehensive and has no issues with watching full matches. This is the issue for SI. It won't make much sense to devote a lot of hours to making something that won't be used very often, so whatever is implemented, should be something that a lot would use at least. I'm sure more can be done with training without having to watch players.

Agree on all fronts.

I'd definitely like to see better guaging of the mental states of my players each week before match day

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Agree on all fronts.

I believe I asked you a question?

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Some good ideas mentioned in here however I'd like to add that any increased depth to the training module must be paired with much improve level of awareness from the AI managers otherwise SI simply create a tool that adds more power to the user to dominate the AI just when the AI is starting to offer a greater tactical challenge.

If SI cannot code the AI to use the additional tools & information they would be wise to hold off on any significant changes.

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16 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I think a weekly detailed training report would be useful.

IMHO FM has more than enough detailed reports, and I would hate to have to read any more :).

13 hours ago, borivoje213 said:

These wouldn't impact development but would give the manager an opportunity to cast an eye over a lot of tactical decisions to tweak things.  Friendlies just don't cut it, to see several instances of scenarios - and not just the successful ones would take too long to do, and so infrequent that you'd have to keep a diary of notes recording them all to keep an eye out for certain things you're hoping to achieve.

My thoughts are somewhat along this line.  It's not about player development as much as it is about learning how the ME works.  I don't really know what the difference is between finishing 12 and finishing 14, but I sure would if I could see these two strikers take 10 shots on goal in a drill one after the other.  I'd learn a lot about Positioning and Dribbling if I could watch drills where my winger takes on my CB one-on-one.  Then I could switch CB's or wingers and observe the difference.  Watching drills offers a repeatability that you can't get watching matches.  Matches have too many variables.

I appreciate that this might require a lot of development for not enough benefit... 

 

Edited by Goosewinkle
typo

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18 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

But how would any of that link to the ME and what happens in a match?

There has to be:

A) A link between training, the players attributes & the ME &

B) Training must not be something we have to watch because 99% of users wouldn't bother with it.

With B in mind all those things you listed technically happen now but they are all behind the scenes in some regard.

A) I agree with - and I wouldn't have a clue where to start implementing it.

However, I feel spending time on improving the management of the team and facets around a football club, rather than managing the Media would be far more realistic to a football manager.

B) I disagree with your made up stat of 99%, simply because it's made up. I know for a fact that I would use the Attend Training Days, and insist on certain training routines for upcoming matches. 

 

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99% is made-up, but there is probably some truth; even the most hardcore match day managers don't attend every match in full, and look at how popular dl's are, same as the complaints the game would become too detailed. Still fond memories (later editions become too micro-fiddly for my taste on this though -- specifically managing "fitness" levels went a bit too far for my taste and neither was particularly fun nor is it anything that most managers don't let the fitness coach deal in). Even though it's really just scripted animation sequences on endless repeat for every training session running alongside of a few lines of randomized text commentary, absolutely blew my mind back then. But then that was 25 years ago running on crappy Commodore Amiga computers with a pitifully 1 meg of RAM, the future had never looked brighter since (eek, getting old!) :D
 

 

Edited by Svenc

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I think I like training as it is.

it's a simulation game and we can't have an element like training taking 10mins of our times for micro-managing it like real life just for every single continue screen. at that rate, a season would take 6 months of real time to complete. an extremely simplified version of training like it is now is just perfect. 5mins during pre-season and a couple of mins to tweak abit in between seasons is just about right.

 

Edited by upthetoon

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Training is one of the worst things in my opinion. I would at least like to see either an average rating or a list of players who were notably good or bad after each session. If my young striker had a really good week training while my overpaid ageing striker had had a few stinkers then I would feel like I have a decision to make, especially if it was tied in with morale. its just to basic at the moment

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An observation on training performances does exist. Under [Training] > Notable Training Performances.

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