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So overloading one side of the pitch to free up a player on the other seems like the hot topic on the forum at the moment, and I wanted to give it a try - with a twist. The majority of users are 'unlocking' a full-back who is an isolation player, leaving him free at the far side of the pitch to cross/shoot - is this possible with advanced players? 596cde0c7a669_ScreenShot2017-07-17at16_48_05.thumb.png.f89fc0d616b9c7eeba5c7742a6a0e28c.png

This is what I've come up with, using the IWB and an AP on the left flank for overloading purposes - however I rarely see the RMD left unmarked and often there are too many players crowding the left flank - perhaps the IWB is sufficient enough by itself to overload it? How can I free up my RMD? I feel like maybe moving the striker to the right to pin down the opposition's LCB?LB could be worth a shot but I'm unsure on how this would play out.

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8 minutes ago, jc577 said:

So overloading one side of the pitch to free up a player on the other seems like the hot topic on the forum at the moment, and I wanted to give it a try - with a twist. The majority of users are 'unlocking' a full-back who is an isolation player, leaving him free at the far side of the pitch to cross/shoot - is this possible with advanced players? 596cde0c7a669_ScreenShot2017-07-17at16_48_05.thumb.png.f89fc0d616b9c7eeba5c7742a6a0e28c.png

This is what I've come up with, using the IWB and an AP on the left flank for overloading purposes - however I rarely see the RMD left unmarked and often there are too many players crowding the left flank - perhaps the IWB is sufficient enough by itself to overload it? How can I free up my RMD? I feel like maybe moving the striker to the right to pin down the opposition's LCB?LB could be worth a shot but I'm unsure on how this would play out.

from what i understand of the posts you are talking about, it involves more players - so to overload a left flank you need more players on the left, and you are only using 2 or 3 at the moment. that can overload if they work well together, but the opposition arent really out numbered are they? 

also, using a RMD will be harder, as the opposition will already know to mark him. again, he may be free at some point if he works to be, as that is the role. but he wont be free by default, as he should already be marked some how

the reason others are using a fullback usually, is that he is coming from deeper positions so generally not already marked by a defender. it is a combination of physical bodies and space. you willnot have the physical bodies to bring all play to one side consistently, so there is no reason for the opposition to just ignore your RMD

it may still work for you, of course, but in a more general, balanced approach kind of way that will require more player skill than a regularly open player would require. for what it is worth, i prefer your formation to those 'one arm bandits' :)

 

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Posted (edited)

EDIT: I'M WRONG. Disregard.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Raum is a ball magnet role. 

This means trying to create play to the opposite side of the raum is going to require more than a playmaker to offset. Your probably going to have to use some sort of asymmetrical overload to pull the attack too.

Edited by VinceLombardi

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, VinceLombardi said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Raum is a ball magnet role

 

never find this myself. he isnt any sort of play maker? more a wide poacher, drifting around. like a more agressive inside forward?

Edited by lemeuresnew

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6 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

never find this myself. he isnt any sort of play maker? more a wide poacher, drifting around. like a more agressive inside forward?

That's what I thought - his pi's don't suggest he's a ball magnet either.

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2 hours ago, VinceLombardi said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Raum is a ball magnet role. 

A Raumdeuter is not one of the ball magnet roles.  Target Man, Trequartista, Enganche, Regista or anything with the word "playmaker" in their role name are.

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a raumdeuter is a made up role with no similarity to real world football. 

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2 hours ago, heddy said:

a raumdeuter is a made up role with no similarity to real world football. 

all roles are made up, this one is no different

Muller described himself as a Raumdeuter, because he knew he played differently from other wingers. it is just a description of a specialised player, that is all. no different to a false 9, engache or sweeper. it is just a way of describing a players style

 

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As I’m on a heavy dose of raum.s at the moment, so I may be competent enough to give an insight on them.

Raum.s are somewhat ball magnets, but not in a sense of playmakers. Playmakers are target for pass to their feet. Raum.s on other hand invite through balls. Just like poachers who to try to beat the offside trap centrally, raum.s do the same on the wings. They hang out with wide defender, trying to be the first for a diagonal through ball. So Raum. is a wide poacher.

 

@jc577  Raum. won’t have a privilege of being left isolated. As he is offensive type of player, he will be treated accordingly by opposition. So he won’t see the freedom of being left unmarked as your marauding fullback may enjoy. But that’s not a stumbling obstacle. Raum.s are good at beating their marker. As wide defenders rarely cooperate with CDs to stay in one line, raum.s can frequently find pockets of space and move into channels without triggering offside.

Speaking of overloading one side, I’m not sure how it will connect with raum.s on the other side. Through balls are risky passes. Balls across the pitch add up to the risky pass barometer. I mean the length of pass determines the likelihood of attempting at execution and success rate of it.

Even if you play with “pass into space”, “direct passing” TI, and PPM “switch ball to the other flank”, I’m not sure it will be consistent occurrence of raum.s receiving killer balls from across the pitch every game.

In your particular system, if F9 has creator’s skills (vision, passing), he may be better accommodated positionally to feed your raum with through balls. But ideally I would suggest to have creative player at AMC strata to fully unlock raum.’s potential.

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9 hours ago, Barbosa04 said:

@jc577  Raum. won’t have a privilege of being left isolated. As he is offensive type of player, he will be treated accordingly by opposition. So he won’t see the freedom of being left unmarked as your marauding fullback may enjoy. But that’s not a stumbling obstacle. Raum.s are good at beating their marker. As wide defenders rarely cooperate with CDs to stay in one line, raum.s can frequently find pockets of space and move into channels without triggering offside.

 

Speaking of overloading one side, I’m not sure how it will connect with raum.s on the other side. Through balls are risky passes. Balls across the pitch add up to the risky pass barometer. I mean the length of pass determines the likelihood of attempting at execution and success rate of it.

 

Even if you play with “pass into space”, “direct passing” TI, and PPM “switch ball to the other flank”, I’m not sure it will be consistent occurrence of raum.s receiving killer balls from across the pitch every game.

 

In your particular system, if F9 has creator’s skills (vision, passing), he may be better accommodated positionally to feed your raum with through balls. But ideally I would suggest to have creative player at AMC strata to fully unlock raum.’s potential.

 

Fair enough I did think it would be difficult for them to be left unmarked due to the nature of their position (high up the pitch and narrow) but is there a way to isolate them 1v1 with a defender? I have found it very difficult to switch the ball from the left to the right, even though Tadic has the ppm 'switches ball to the other flank' along with good vision, passing and technique, it is often difficult to do. Formation wise do you think a 4-2-3-1 (even though I hate this formation) would be ideal for unlocking my RMD?

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55 minutes ago, jc577 said:

but is there a way to isolate them 1v1 with a defender?

You don't need to do anything special. They are already 1v1 almost always in attacking transitioning.

The problematic part is delivering exquisite passes from the other flank that you are trying to implement. See when you overloading the other flank, your players in there have short passing options around them, and when the choice is between a short sure pass and low probability/hard long ball to raum. who is being stocked by a FB… then the player in possession better go with a safer option.

Some creative player on support duty in AMC will be best suited ability wise and positionally (shorter passing length meaning higher success probability). And as you ask for ideal variant for raum.s… I would omit strikers from the system as I would like all risky through balls directed onto raum.s path. In the presence of strikers the overall count of risky passes towards them would be shared. Although strikers who come deep like F9, DF may not as much steal the attention.

4-2-3-1 you are asking may be harder to play without being a strong team in a league, unless you have an excellent CMs. IWBs may somewhat negate the inherent central defensive hole of that system.

 

How about 442 midfield diamond with raum.s instead of strikers?

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1 hour ago, Barbosa04 said:

You don't need to do anything special. They are already 1v1 almost always in attacking transitioning.

The problematic part is delivering exquisite passes from the other flank that you are trying to implement. See when you overloading the other flank, your players in there have short passing options around them, and when the choice is between a short sure pass and low probability/hard long ball to raum. who is being stocked by a FB… then the player in possession better go with a safer option.

Some creative player on support duty in AMC will be best suited ability wise and positionally (shorter passing length meaning higher success probability). And as you ask for ideal variant for raum.s… I would omit strikers from the system as I would like all risky through balls directed onto raum.s path. In the presence of strikers the overall count of risky passes towards them would be shared. Although strikers who come deep like F9, DF may not as much steal the attention.

4-2-3-1 you are asking may be harder to play without being a strong team in a league, unless you have an excellent CMs. IWBs may somewhat negate the inherent central defensive hole of that system.

 

How about 442 midfield diamond with raum.s instead of strikers?

Just finished reading part 4 of your latest thread and it's given me some good information on how best to use RMD's, more specifically creating a system designed for possession in order to negate the lack of defensive contribution. A 'strikerless' 442 diamond sounds interesting, already got loads of ideas running around. Will post a screenshot of the tactic later on when I have access to the game but for now I'm thinking a structured team shape, control mentality - a DLP(d) at DM/AP(s) at AMC. For me when creating narrow systems getting the full-backs right is the hardest part - will probably start with FB(s) just to keep things simple initially. Also, how often do you usually spend when designing your systems?

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This looks a heckuva lot like one of my systems from the channel. If you want to get the best out of RMD, you need to make sure he has space to attack. He is a "space investigator". You can get the overloads you want with the roles and duties you have listed out. Your challenge will be to make sure the left flank can keep the ball, that means they need to be good on the ball have good first touch and composure. You will most likely need to have some of them playing with risky passes, preferably the CM(A) and the two midfielders. Since he needs space to attack you will also be playing with a normal defensive line. I have used this system a lot and the IWB will need to close down much more, he will also need to be a cross between a midfielder and a fullback. So knowing your players well enough to sort them into the roles will be important. 

The AP will hold up the ball, you can also ask him to sit narrower, this will bring him closer to the overloading group thus ensuring you always have a pass on at the left flank. The RMD needs to have good OTB and acceleration. Nothing below 15. He needs good acceleration to break behind the defensive line, when the 1v1 chance is opened up through a pass into space from a player.  Because the IWB is working with the CM(A) and the AP you will have created the overload you need on the left, between the 3 of them they should be able to draw up to 5 players. Most of the time people fail with RMDs is down to them picking the wrong player for the role.

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23 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

This looks a heckuva lot like one of my systems from the channel. If you want to get the best out of RMD, you need to make sure he has space to attack. He is a "space investigator". You can get the overloads you want with the roles and duties you have listed out. Your challenge will be to make sure the left flank can keep the ball, that means they need to be good on the ball have good first touch and composure. You will most likely need to have some of them playing with risky passes, preferably the CM(A) and the two midfielders. Since he needs space to attack you will also be playing with a normal defensive line. I have used this system a lot and the IWB will need to close down much more, he will also need to be a cross between a midfielder and a fullback. So knowing your players well enough to sort them into the roles will be important. 

The AP will hold up the ball, you can also ask him to sit narrower, this will bring him closer to the overloading group thus ensuring you always have a pass on at the left flank. The RMD needs to have good OTB and acceleration. Nothing below 15. He needs good acceleration to break behind the defensive line, when the 1v1 chance is opened up through a pass into space from a player.  Because the IWB is working with the CM(A) and the AP you will have created the overload you need on the left, between the 3 of them they should be able to draw up to 5 players. Most of the time people fail with RMDs is down to them picking the wrong player for the role.

Luckily Southampton have a lot of technical players, and my first choice AP and CM(a) have a good first touch and composure - however my back-up CM(a) only has 10 for composure - still trying to figure out how to adapt when he has to play. What do I do when the opposition refuse to give me space in-behind? I feel as if sometimes I may have no choice but to change this role to maybe an IF(s) and make use of my full-backs. My RMD (Calleri, who is surprisingly brilliant in FM17) has 16 for OTB, and I think 15 for acceleration and pace - he's only 23 so hoping his quickness will increase further. I do lack an acceptable back-up which is something I probably need to address.

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If the opposition sits back you are forced to draw them out. So you will need to go deeper, which is a. challenge if you don't have strong mentally good defenders

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Look at the mentals of the players you expect to make the difficult type of passes to release the raumdauter. I appreciate you are in 2018 in-game but have these default figures really improved to the 15 min. standard probably required for serious Premiership ambitions or at least to create the somewhat advanced passage of play you're trying?

Tadic - composure, decisions both 12

Ward-Prowse - composure 10, decisions 13 (even first touch 13) Maybe he has improved noticeably given his in-game potential so the most likely candidate to prove me wrong.

Romeu - decisions 13, technicals not out of this world and on a defend duty loses some of the automatic 'expansion' to his play

Bertrand - really poor technicals across the board. Composure and vision not great either

Thomas Delaney, looks solid but not hugely spectacular with very little room to improve (vision 11, first touch 12)

 

Keeping in mind @Rashidi's and @Barbosa04's replies and delving a bit deeper, on the face of it are you trying to be over-ambitious considering the players at your disposal?  I personally feel your issue is a combination of their posts.

 

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44 minutes ago, D_LO_ said:

Look at the mentals of the players you expect to make the difficult type of passes to release the raumdauter. I appreciate you are in 2018 in-game but have these default figures really improved to the 15 min. standard probably required for serious Premiership ambitions or at least to create the somewhat advanced passage of play you're trying?

Tadic - composure, decisions both 12

Ward-Prowse - composure 10, decisions 13 (even first touch 13) Maybe he has improved noticeably given his in-game potential so the most likely candidate to prove me wrong.

Romeu - decisions 13, technicals not out of this world and on a defend duty loses some of the automatic 'expansion' to his play

Bertrand - really poor technicals across the board. Composure and vision not great either

Thomas Delaney, looks solid but not hugely spectacular with very little room to improve (vision 11, first touch 12)

 

Keeping in mind @Rashidi's and @Barbosa04's replies and delving a bit deeper, on the face of it are you trying to be over-ambitious considering the players at your disposal?  I personally feel your issue is a combination of their posts.

 

Very valid points - maybe I am overestimating the abilities of my team. What do you reckon I do instead in terms of negating the issues you mentioned? 

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Give your boys more of a chance. The first thing you should do is:
 

a. Consider the roles the players can play

b. Then think of how they can support one another to get the job done.

If you are playing such a system you could play in different ways depending on the types of players you have. Say for example the IWB its a technically demanding role, wouldn't you be better served playing a simpler kind of game with those players. Now I know I always create videos that show me micromanaging each aspect of the game. There are certainly other ways to play like minimising the use of shouts and PIs so that you can understand what kind of football they can play. The 433 that you have shown is technically a tough system, because it requires moments of brilliance from some players. What if you were to play simpler..?

Say Winger, AP combination on the flanks with a Centreforward on Support or a DLF(S), with someone acting more in a roaming role in midfield to support them

Alternatively you could use winger, IF on the flanks with an AF with a hardworking midfield to hit teams on the break, here you could ask your team to play a more disciplined game. I know there are a lot of fantastic threads on the forum listing out the various ways people can play and that's credit to the contributors because there is no one single way to play. You can have people managing a side without any shouts/PIs, depending wholly on the player roles to do all the work, or you could have people going all "Pep" and demanding to micro manage each role to the Nth degree. It's great that you want to try these things out, but I would recommend that you have a game save loaded with a really good side on FMTouch where you can try different things out to learn and try out these different approaches. I have seen way too many people get enamoured by others doing seemingly crazy impossible stuff with poor teams and then go off trying to do the same only for them to succumb to "monitor smashing". There are many ways to skin this cat. The reason why I ask you to try this out with a great team is so that you can see what works there and with great players, then you can analyse why.  While its heartening that you want to experiment, which in all honesty is the best way to master the game, I worry that it can lead to frustration. 

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@Rashidi I mean we are sitting in 6th after 28 games - won 15, drawn 10 and lost only 3 which is pretty good going. Turn a few of those draws into wins and we are well on our way to breaking into the top 4. We've mainly been playing 'vertical football' focusing on getting the ball up quickly to our wide players (IFs, DLFa, RMD), but it's not pretty and I want to develop a style for the club, something that can be evolved as the seasons go on. I realise I may have pushed the boundaries a bit with the latest tactic, however I do believe I have a few key players who can fit bill, namely Calleri my RDM. I also want to play JWP and Hoijberg in midfield but realise this may not be possible. De Sciglio would be the IWB. One of the issues is as you said, I do see a lot of posts on the forum with people creating really advanced tactical systems which has inspired me to create my own.

I am caught in two minds between playing styles - I do like hitting teams with fast paced attacks but feel it may be somewhat difficult due to our current position in the league, but whenever i've tried to control possession we have struggled to create chances. I need to get a grip and fast otherwise we'll lose our chance to finish in the top 4. 

                 

Calleri.png

JWP.png

Hoijberg.png

De Sig.png

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On 18/7/2017 at 18:02, Rashidi said:

This looks a heckuva lot like one of my systems from the channel.

I would love if you could guide me in the general direction of that video!

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@jc577

I would also recommend Cleon's possession thread. Not sure if the images are still up, but he used an AP (S), RPM (S) and FB (A) on one side to create movement to better hold on to the ball which gave the BBM (S) and IF (S) on the other side time to get in the box to score the goal. 

Same principle really; only with the a Raumdeuter. 

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