Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
KennedyBakircioglu

[FM17] Absolutely desperate beyond all comprehension of the human mind

Recommended Posts

23vjqex.png

dggx75.png

34g9fnt.png

260df1j.png

2v3o5yu.png

2e3y0s3.png

2h8alb7.png

2a8i4p4.png

d5wnq.png

2ezpvs5.png

i1a3cg.png

iqvq5h.png

2itplxz.png

 

I need drastic help! WTF is happening, I'm dominating EVERY game yet getting d*cked on constantly, this has been my FM17 all over, sick of it now TBH, it's not as if I'm being dominated in games, the opposite, why is FM killing me?!?!

 

Help needed from a FM veteran who is slowly losing love with the game, or more accurately the game seems to be losing love with me.

Edited by KennedyBakircioglu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a veteran and you also aren't giving much info to go on, but most obvious to me is that

1) You have wingers racing up the field, made even more aggressive by control mentality and exploit flanks. Then they are instructed to wait for an overlap that will never come. And presumably to cross into a box that may, have 1-2 players at most in it because the midfielders and F9 are hanging out in the midfield.

2) Meanwhile your midfield players are instructed to play at a snails pace, further discouraged from moving forward with the support role, exploit flanks, and stick to positions instructions. And rarely get up into the box.

3) The crazy aggressive wingers mentioned above have zero cover behind them. 

Each of these are issues in themselves, but collectively it's super disjointed. All told, I'm pretty impressed you have had as good of results as you have. I would expect a lot more statlines like Tottenham and Swansea.  

Edited by VinceLombardi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Umm first of all, Look for Overlap who? Who's gonna overlap when you do not have fullbacks to do so?

Secondly the vital spot of your tactic imo is the two wide midfielders and in your case they are given an attack duty. Do they have the necessary atributes to go forward but also come back and defend? 

Then your DM is imo too cautious, I think I would select a slightly more aggressive role at least to make sure he delays the opponent's attack until your wingers recover back to the defensive shape.

 

There is also an issue with your double pivot, while a DLP is alright, I think the other CM can be slightly different, an AP will be static.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kennedy - great must have player from yester year!

I feel your pain, but these guys above are right - a formation must be able to defend as well as attack, esp away matches

I do find this game hard - in my 3rd Prem season I am 19th, with my best squad to date ?? - it is frustrating, esp when as I do have 25 shots on goal , the AI has 3 & scores 2 or 3. 

GL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, VinceLombardi said:

Not a veteran and you also aren't giving much info to go on, but most obvious to me is that

1) You have wingers racing up the field, made even more aggressive by control mentality and exploit flanks. Then they are instructed to wait for an overlap that will never come. And presumably to cross into a box that may, have 1-2 players at most in it because the midfielders and F9 are hanging out in the midfield.

2) Meanwhile your midfield players are instructed to play at a snails pace, further discouraged from moving forward with the support role, exploit flanks, and stick to positions instructions. And rarely get up into the box.

3) The crazy aggressive wingers mentioned above have zero cover behind them. 

Each of these are issues in themselves, but collectively it's super disjointed. All told, I'm pretty impressed you have had as good of results as you have. I would expect a lot more statlines like Tottenham and Swansea.  

This is an excellent critique OP.

You have exactly 2 types of attacking modes that I can see. Number 1 is get the balls wide and cross, number 2 is lump the ball up to the strikers. The second one is never going to be effective, so all a team has to do is shut down your wingers and you are going to struggle to create chances. Couple this to being totally exposed down the flanks, and you are wide open for a counter attack. In fact, you are pretty wide open in general down the flanks. If you are attacked down the flanks, it is going to drag a CB over, which is going to disrupt your central shape, and create holes to be exploited. 

Another problem is your sense of dominance. You are playing super slow football, so it stands to reason that you are having a lot of possession. It is almost certainly sterile possession however (think Roberto Martinez at Swansea sterile). Having a lot of possession does not mean you are dominating a game, it means you are dominating possession. If, as in one of your examples, you lose 6-0, you have been dominated. Another knock on effect of playing so slow is you are going to allow the other side to get set in their defensive shape, making them harder to break down. I would also guess that quite a lot of the shots you see are from range? I tend to see that when I dominate possession but cannot do anything with the ball. In games where you have a lot of CCC but no scoring, check what those CCCs look like, because they are not always as clear cut as you hope (the game can suck at this). Also, there are some games where you are cut wide open (Stoke had 5 CCCs!). Do the same, go back and look at their chances, see if they are really good chances, and see how they happened. This tells you what you need to do defensively to stop them.

So, OP, in order to sort this out you have to answer to yourself a few questions. Why have you chosen the TIs you have chosen? For instance, look for overlap does not make sense here. Who is looking to overlap whom? Why such slow build up play? And why the rest of your TIs. Also, why two attacking wingers with no support? Normally in a tactic like this you should be reserved with the wide players - they have a lot of ground to cover on both sides of the ball - and can afford to be more aggressive with the central players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're dominating possession because you have no attacking players in the middle and lots of players for your playmakers to pass to behind them (3 x CB, 1 x DM and the other playmaker), so they're just going to keep recycling the ball in and around midfield a lot... that doesn't score goals.  Without one of those players being a bit more adventurous the ball is only going to get forward when absolutely guaranteed, or when your F9 drops deep, leaving you with one advanced attacking player.

I'd imagine most of the time they slowly make their way up the pitch before having shots from outside the area (you have lots of shots but, on the whole, very few Clear Cut Chances), or passing to the wingers, who cross, but with only your CF guaranteed to be in the box, you're going to struggle to get goals from crosses.

My advice:

  • Ditch all your team advice, but seeing as you seem to want possession play I'd keep the Tempo at 1 notch lower than default, or maybe tick the "Retain Possession button"
  • Drop your wingers into WB position as your first port of call positioning-wise, you need defensive cover on the wings and with an attack duty they're going to find themselves very far up the pitch when you lose the ball.  You could keep the attack duty once they're back there, but only if they're fit enough and work hard enough to get back and defend.
  • I agree you should have a more adventurous DM, a BWMd or even Support would work very well there breaking play up.  If he goes wandering closing players down too much you still have 3 CBs behind.
  • I'd then get one of your two CMs to be a runner rather than both floating and trying to playmake.  You could make Wilshere an APa, or you could put him as an CMa to really get him forward, but a CMs would probably be my choice.
  • I'd then consider making your DLP an APs, but you'd have to see how that plays with your team.  As long as he stays as support he'll still be around to cover defensively, but you don't need to have him fixed in position like a DLP as you have 4 defensive players behind.
  • Finally, I'd consider going to a Standard mentality. Control assumes you're going to dominate play, and allows your players to play wider and roam a bit more.  I'm assuming as Bournemouth you aren't a dominant force, so I'd go Standard (for reference I play as a dominant Manchester United and I play on Standard).  But this isn't a necessity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@KennedyBakircioglu I've been there and tried that, mate. 3-man defense formations without WBs are a poisoned chalice on FM17. I've even tried with DW instructions to the ML/MR. Still inconsistent as in one moment, I'm beating Chelsea 6:3, next one I lose to Swansea 3:0 with me having 40 shots at their goal. That's because the 3 CDs are too random, at one point they draw out to the wings like they're supposed to, in the next one they're all lined up in front of the penalty area like bafoons and the opposition wingers are bombing the hell out of you. And nothing will help that. I'd suggest dropping the idea of having a 3-man defense without WBs/FBs until FM18, where hopefully the defense will act more realistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

@KennedyBakircioglu I've been there and tried that, mate. 3-man defense formations without WBs are a poisoned chalice on FM17. I've even tried with DW instructions to the ML/MR. Still inconsistent as in one moment, I'm beating Chelsea 6:3, next one I lose to Swansea 3:0 with me having 40 shots at their goal. That's because the 3 CDs are too random, at one point they draw out to the wings like they're supposed to, in the next one they're all lined up in front of the penalty area like bafoons and the opposition wingers are bombing the hell out of you. And nothing will help that. I'd suggest dropping the idea of having a 3-man defense without WBs/FBs until FM18, where hopefully the defense will act more realistic.

Please don't confuse your own shortcomings with "it's the game not working properly", and then try to advise others accordingly.

Is a formation such as this difficult to get right?  Yes, but it's by no means the game breaker you are implying.

And please mind the language.

 @KennedyBakircioglu there's some good advice further up, see how you get on :thup:.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're committed to this tactic, you should focus more on what you see happening on the virtual field. If you want, actually craft a reply by detailing all the things you don't like seeing from your tactic, by using screenshots of the 2D pitch and maybe some statistical analysis. That'll allow people to pinpoint things you can do to improve.

For example, taking screenshot of what happens when your DLP has the ball. What kind of movement are the other players making? What do you want changed?

2 hours ago, Trent71 said:

@KennedyBakircioglu I've been there and tried that, mate. 3-man defense formations without WBs are a poisoned chalice on FM17. I've even tried with DW instructions to the ML/MR. Still inconsistent as in one moment, I'm beating Chelsea 6:3, next one I lose to Swansea 3:0 with me having 40 shots at their goal. That's because the 3 CDs are too random, at one point they draw out to the wings like they're supposed to, in the next one they're all lined up in front of the penalty area like bafoons and the opposition wingers are bombing the hell out of you. And nothing will help that. I'd suggest dropping the idea of having a 3-man defense without WBs/FBs until FM18, where hopefully the defense will act more realistic.

Interesting you'd say that because on the front page there is a thread that details a tactic, which does a very good job of exploiting the ME. It has a back-3, with a libero, and no FBs/WBs. You can check it out:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a real 3 man defence is always going to be inherently unstable in FM - even in that other thread he seems to concede heaps of goals, but he's so amazing going forward he outscores the opposition.

The stats from your matches on a first glance do look weird with goals disproportional to chances, but I suspect most of your CCCs are not as effective as you think with players not completely unmarked, or slightly out of balance as they take their CCC-recorded shots; whilst the opposition might be getting good chances that aren't recorded as CCCs. 

I imagine a recurrent situation in which their winger runs to the byline, your trio of CBs gets drawn out of shape, the cross comes in, and your panicking, out-of-position CBs give the striker a inch of space for him to score the goal. Which isn't recorded as a CCC as it's a cross under some vague pressure (crosses almost never are recorded as CCCs).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If "CCCs" wouldn't be recorded from crosses/wide balls that can oft be an issue, as the resulting finish is typically a far bigger challenge for the keeper than most one on ones due to change in direction of the ball (which is all up for SI to decide on whatever they deem feasible, headers weren't recorded for a long time too,even if the goal was empty)... Generally you can oft tell noobs from the pros on this as soon as somebody starts quoting CCCs.... that's not only due to their subjective nature, but they literally don't tell anything, even in football where the average conversions are like 33+%ish, which isn't much bigger than for general shots on target. noobs is perhaps a bit harsh, and the term "clear-cut" is already nonsense itself all things considered, but anybody ever placing any kind of particular importance on that ccc stat is down the frustration hell quickly... worst thing in the game whilst it is missing far simpler, far more telling and far less subjective stats. :seagull: At best if a side gets a load of those in a match, that can mean they regularly create some above averages openings, but other than that, no. NOOOO!

Haven't played a back three like that in a while. But the Swansea 0-6 thrashing may be a good example to look for this. Assuming their advanced AML/AMR players broke in behind the forward bombing wingers for a few crosses to nick for Llorente -- or a cross made to the far post to the winger. Indeed, things on the break look like this regularly/quickly.  You'd likely have better coverage by making one winger far less aggressive, plus stretching the CM strata some, (i.e. pushing the DM into it) so that they can cover a wider area to help as well. Playing against wide formations is naturally always going to be the challenge.

04tAxWm.jpg
 


ABJoyqf.jpg

O8r5vh9.jpg

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, noikeee said:

 

I think a real 3 man defence is always going to be inherently unstable in FM - even in that other thread he seems to concede heaps of goals, but he's so amazing going forward he outscores the opposition.

 

He's not though. His defensive record is good, but that's because he's using the high press, which is overpowered once again, although not as bad as in FM16.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just going to look at your roles and without looking at the rest of the system, suss what might happen in some of your games. At the back you have 3 centre backs playing behind an Anchor who is basically a door-stop, he won't venture very far from his position hanging about to be an obstacle, so we don't really expect him to be putting in too much of a challenge. I doubt he will generate a lot of tackles, but he will get interceptions more from being in the right place at the right time

 

I am a big fan of 3 man defences in the game, so I wouldn't be listening to those who call it a "poisoned chalice" you just need to make sure the right players close down the  right times, and well with that alignment at the back, they could be easily pulled apart. Your flanks are the most vulnerable part of your system, and when you fail to score and lose the ball, you concede really easily, because its too easy for the AI to get down either flank. The fact is 3 man defences need protection on the flanks, there has never truly be any 3 man attack in modern times that didn't depend on someone tracking opposite wingers on the flanks.  While the central midfield duo look ok, when the ball does by any chance get up which it will because you have desperately thrown both wingers up in an attempt to make them viable passing options, their relative isolation could drive you crazy, which is why you need the CF, his roam instruction does help the left flank out a bit. Once the ball enters the opposition half, you are usually relieved, but you have probably only rarely ever seen a move that starts with your keeper passing to the centreback and play building up that way. 

So your players press high, they stay on top and try to create chances they can keep the ball, but, whenever they lose the plot up top, you risk losing everything. So what you need to do is consider how you can get those wingers to track back, and how you can create that 3 man defence to work differently so at least one does not overcommit. Finally you need to take a long hard look at the Anchor. 

If you play purely with 3 at the back without any flank support, you are bound to concede goals going down the flank. Even when I made Scramjet with that 3 man configuration I had to think of locking down the flanks.  What would I do?
 

1. Change the two roles to DW
2. Ditch the TIs
3. Consider Retain Possession.
4. CF Changed to a Poacher, at least he still runs and turns to lay back, but more likely to work well with DWs
5. One CM needs to punch forward from the middle - role change. either B2BM, MC(A), RPM, not really sure what kind of players you have, either you get a double pivot that can pass the ball together to the final third or you get one of the strikers to drop deep and work with them. Either way you still need wing support
6. REMOVE Look for overlap - it does you only harm, remove basically all of them...Prevent GK distirubution is good, cos it keeps the poacher honest and remove exploit shouts.
7, Anchor to DLP(D)

You need to be able to visualise how the goals are happening, I can see how they can happen in your team, but if you still want to play with an out and. out winger, consider locking down at least one flank, then overload that side of the flank with players who are on support duty who can hold up the ball and draw the other team out. Basically without going into too much detail, your tactic is just using the wrong combo of shouts. Look for overlap is the worst culprit, I'd just remove them all. and just start with RP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my 3412, which doesn't even use a DM slotted player, and we look like this in attack and that in defence. I did tweak it in the second half, I started with a 3421 then preferred to change it to a 3412. The AI did change to a 424 in the second half which was good, cos I wanted to see how we would do with pressure down the flanks.

59664b7b5063b_3412(a).thumb.jpg.3cbde22f6b91e27373a50343760977d0.jpg3412(b).thumb.jpg.0b8439bd0ec870163473364f1a6073b6.jpg

3421(c).jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...