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The emphasis on high balls is killing the match engine

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Ok, old topic, but since nobody from SI has ever replied or acknowledged this, I'll give it another shot. Very simply put: the match engine's emphasis on traditional English high balls is seriously killing the whole thing. It's perfectly all right if this type of play is an option. But it's terrible that there is, at the moment, no alternative to it.

 

I just played against Chelsea. Short passing, retain possession, no emphasis on crosses, work the ball into box. And what do I get? By half time, Divock Origi, up front, has a rating of 6.2, because he has gone for 12 headers and won 1 of them. My team keeps feeding him with these high balls, although he is not good at headers and he is playing against defenders considerably bigger than he is. My players absolutely don't understand what's happening, and they absolutely don't and won't change their approach. I also, as their manager, have absolutely no option to tell the guys: "Hey. Keep the ball on the deck. Origi is quick. Make him run for a ball against a defender, don't make him jump."

 

Incidentally, if you ever play against Barcelona, this phenomenon is the reason why you will win. They are small guys, and that's all you need. It's heartbreaking to watch the AI feed these high balls to Messi and Neymar, allowing you to beat them 1-6 away and 7-0 at home.

 

This has been a problem in the game since at least FM2013. Nothing has happened.

Edited by Guest

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16 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I just played against Chelsea. Short passing, retain possession, no emphasis on crosses, work the ball into box. And what do I get? By half time, Divock Origi, up front, has a rating of 6.2, because he has gone for 12 headers and won 1 of them. My team keeps feeding him with these high balls, although he is not good at headers and he is playing against defenders considerably bigger than he is. My players absolutely don't understand what's happening, and they absolutely don't and won't change their approach. I also, as their manager, have absolutely no option to tell the guys: "Hey. Keep the ball on the deck. Origi is quick. Make him run for a ball against a defender, don't make him jump."

 

You've got some issues there which are certainly tactical.

Short passing & retain possession both restrict the passing range so unless you have players within that range & risk level then your players are going to ignore your instructions because they can't follow them.  This will then result in longer balls.

You also seem to have another misunderstanding which is the heading attribute, this has nothing to do with winning a header.  It is simply have accurately a player can direct his header once he gets his head on the ball.  Its effectively the aerial equal of passing.

You aren't going to get a positive reaction to these type of posts when there are fundamental issues with how you understand the basics.

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No, there is no misunderstanding concerning headers. I do know the difference between jumping reach and heading, and Origi struggles with the former, when playing against big defenders. That's not a great fault as such, but it is a problem that you cannot ask your players NOT to feed him high balls.

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Short passing and retain possession is an issue if the players aren't within short passing distance of the player with the ball. Also it is important to look at what the players traits are some can override these tactical instructions. The amount of creative freedom can also stop players following your instructions if too high as the players perceives himself as being above the instructions.

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To give you an example of how the AI does it as well:

 

I beat Atletico Madrid 4-0 in the Champions League final. Their striker, Antoine Griezmann, went for 14 headers, of which he won 1. Rating 6.2.

The next year, I beat Real Madrid 4-0 in the semi final stage. Cristiano Ronaldo's heading stats, up front: 11 tried, 3 won.

 

They just don't know how to play to their strengths.

Edited by Guest

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8 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

No, there is no misunderstanding concerning headers. I do know the difference between jumping reach and heading, and Origi struggles with the former, when playing against big defenders. That's not a great fault as such, but it is a problem that you cannot ask your players NOT to feed him high balls.

So if there is no misunderstanding why did you state he had 12 for headers in the OP?

 

I don't know if its still true but retain possession used to encourage balls to feet as opposed to balls to chase but generally with a faster striker you should be looking to give them balls to run onto which short passing & retain possession both go against.

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@Cougar2010: You are misreading me. I wrote he attempted 12 headers, of which he won 1.

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there used to be a blay ball to feet, run onto ball and high ball option in older versions if im remembering correctly?

i understand @Cougar2010 is half right, but the original post is also right in its own way. you can control the type of cross, but balls through the middle do seem limited

it isn't a problem i have had for a few seasons, but at the start of my save it took a while to stop the stupid high balls up to Origi or Woodburn

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Just now, xzar_monty said:

@Cougar2010: You are misreading me. I wrote he attempted 12 headers, of which he won 1.

I did, sorry about that :(

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@Cougar2010: That's fine.

 

But as my Champions League final example kinda shows, the AI does it as well. I mean, if you have Griezmann up front, you don't feed him high balls and expect him to win them. But that's what the AI did, consistently, allowing me to beat Atletico Madrid without any difficulty.

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I know that's not the point of his but I don't follow the logics of "Barcelona AI is that handicapped that it doesn't know how to utilize its player upfront, so I scored 6 and 7 goals against them because of that". Surely another thing to watch out for in this match-up would be in how they defended if they are pushover of such calibre. Other than that, carry on. :)

Re: retain possession+shorter passing, have never players seen belting it ever on such intructions. The contrary, the bias becomes that big that they play it short even if that is the most risky thing ever. It speaks to reason that if they run out of options they need to play it someplace else. retain possession also decreases risky/through balls though, the aim is to retain, not to consantly give hte ball away by feeding through balls to that quick forward up front.
 

Edited by Svenc

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@Svenc: You are quite right to question the logic of that. I don't have a thorough analysis, but it seems to me that many teams are more vulnerable to counter attacks than they should be. Don't quote me on this, though, this is just my current hunch. In other words, when Atletico/Barca feed their diminutive forwards with high balls, the counter attacks you get from these situations are your best chances of scoring.

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Just to be clear this is not a match engine issue, it's a tactical one due to the AI managers not being sophisticated enough to out together a tactic that is effective when prioritising ball possession & probing attacks that utilise recycling of the ball. This should not be an issue for the human manager as the TC provides all the options available to create a system that focuses on intelligent ball retention & scoring chance creation but as it is irl it required a fair amount of attention to detail when setting your tactical instructions & of course the right players to deliver on those instructions.

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@Barside: So, how would you instruct your players, as a rule, to play the ball along the ground? The AML, AMC and AMR position, along with the SC position, receive an inordinate number of high balls. This, in my experience, has nothing to do with the tactics you use. If only there was a clear-cut instruction: "Emphasize playing along the ground", in the same way that you can instruct your players to "Be more expressive" or "Dive into tackles".

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There is no single instruction, it's about combing roles, mentality, team & player instructions to create a pass focused style, I suggest heading over to the tactics forum for help.

Post details of your current tactic(s), match analysis data & maybe even a few highlights showing the problem you're experiencing & help will be offered.

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@Barside: But as I said (see above, my post describing Champions League success), the AI does it, too. It doesn't understand that it's doing it, and it won't ever fix it.

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@Barside - i have to disagree with you. although i understand the idea of ball retention etc, and it isnt a game or tactic breaking problem for me it is common enough that it borders on stupidity to suggest it can be stopped purely by tactics.

there is no reason all (perception based but enough to be annoying at least) balls forward, regardless of length of pass, should be in the air. in real life the difference between a Gerrard like long ball and a defender clearance is obvious. in the game, you can have the best vision and passing ability on a player, with plenty of time and no pressure, but get the same annoying ball in the air.

i also haven't seen a obvious difference between players decision attributes, and if it is purely tactical as you say then a high creativity should allow better players to make better decisions? or weaker players in a structured system to do as they are told and stop them? as it is, it feels more like a flaw in the game than something you can control properly

if it is purely tactical as you say, then they need to bring back the play to feet instruction that there used to be in the game. which logically should be shorter passing and retain ball. there is no need for the answer to be any more complicated than that. yet, it some how is still a major problem for a lot of people.

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@lemeuresnew: Excellent post and point, thank you. Indeed, there is NO reason why all long balls should be in the air.

 

When "English-type" teams do it, it is, from a traditional point of view, somewhat understandable, although it is annoying in the sense that you have no way to stop it. But when Barcelona does it, it's just silly. Take a look at how many headers Messi, Neymar et al attempt each game. Balls spread out to the wings, in the game, will be high balls. And small guys will not win them.

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15 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

@Barside - i have to disagree with you. although i understand the idea of ball retention etc, and it isnt a game or tactic breaking problem for me it is common enough that it borders on stupidity to suggest it can be stopped purely by tactics.

there is no reason all (perception based but enough to be annoying at least) balls forward, regardless of length of pass, should be in the air. in real life the difference between a Gerrard like long ball and a defender clearance is obvious. in the game, you can have the best vision and passing ability on a player, with plenty of time and no pressure, but get the same annoying ball in the air.

Still tactical rather than ME, I am very harsh on the failings in the ME but this is not one of them.

15 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

if it is purely tactical as you say, then they need to bring back the play to feet instruction that there used to be in the game. which logically should be shorter passing and retain ball. there is no need for the answer to be any more complicated than that. yet, it some how is still a major problem for a lot of people.

This is probably where you're going wrong, the key PI you want is less fewer risky passes when looking for players to play to feet & cross less often to reduce the number of balls pumped  into the box from wide areas or low crosses for your attackers to run onto.

As for retain possession that primarily asks the player to keep hold of the ball themselves rather than to retain possession through moving the ball with safe passes, if that's what you want to see then use the take a breather TI but bets leave that one for when you're holding a comfortably lead & just want to frustrate an opponent by playing keep ball.

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8 minutes ago, Barside said:

Retain possession primarily asks the player to keep hold of the ball themselves rather than to retain possession through moving the ball with safe passes

wow, this makes huge difference. how could they call it retain possession and put it in team instructions if it is meant to be individual player instruction? Because it applies to all? then it should be dwell on ball and waste time. Retain possession is far more "aggressive" instruction in football vocabulary than what it means in the game.

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This is the manual & iirc tool-tip definition,

Retain Possession

Instructs your players to prioritise keeping hold of the ball.

Although it will impact passing due to the player eventually having to do something with the ball there is actually no mention of it directly affecting passing behaviour & whenever I have taken the time to develop a possession through passing style I never found this instruction to have an appreciable impact on the number of pass attempts & only ever use it as part of the ultra conservative tactic that is there to see a game out when the opposition are not closing down the player in possession.

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43 minutes ago, Barside said:

This is the manual & iirc tool-tip definition,

Retain Possession

Instructs your players to prioritise keeping hold of the ball.

Although it will impact passing due to the player eventually having to do something with the ball there is actually no mention of it directly affecting passing behaviour & whenever I have taken the time to develop a possession through passing style I never found this instruction to have an appreciable impact on the number of pass attempts & only ever use it as part of the ultra conservative tactic that is there to see a game out when the opposition are not closing down the player in possession.

i usually do this through dribble less. that way i find unless i have told a player to dribble more, as my IF's do, the midfield pass the ball around more often

1 hour ago, Barside said:

This is probably where you're going wrong, the key PI you want is less fewer risky passes when looking for players to play to feet & cross less often to reduce the number of balls pumped  into the box from wide areas or low crosses for your attackers to run onto.

 

just because a pass is deemed 'risky' doesnt justify it being played to a 5 foot nothings head. again, a clever player should know this better than a lower league or 'simple' player. i have no problem with how it works, so much as the lack of intelligence shown by players that should know better. if retain possession influences players keeping hold of the ball instead of passing, it should also help with this in that they arent rushing themselves and should let them see the defenders clear over the strikers shoulder from a mile away. do you think i am thinking too logically in this? i have always been of the opinion decision making was a key attribute for a midfielder

i havent necessarily found it a problem from crosses, i think the decision making is far better when going sideways than straight forward. i have a couple of players that have switch ball to other flank to increase this, and they seem to regularly pick out a marouding fullback. i know you could say this is tactical, as they are finding free players so can play better passes. but playing a pass for a player to run on to side ways should be no different than playing it forward right?

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2 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

but playing a pass for a player to run on to side ways should be no different than playing it forward right?

Actually it's much easier to spot & execute than a forward pass to a player who is an all likelihood fairly static & being marked/tracked by a defender with any number of opponents in between ready to cut out a pass played along the ground.

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2 minutes ago, Barside said:

Actually it's much easier to spot & execute than a forward pass to a player who is an all likelihood fairly static & being marked/tracked by a defender with any number of opponents in between ready to cut out a pass played along the ground.

maybe, but that again is where a players decisions come into play? if it is harder, and clear that the player wont win the ball why do it lol. put it some where for him to have half a chance at least

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I'd still want a button on the tactics screen that says "keep the ball on the ground", because no matter what you do there will be too many high balls (if you as manager want to avoid those as much as possible). I don't expect no high balls at all, that would be silly, but the ratio could and should be lower. As it is - even if you got all the tactical tweaks and roles "right" - the ratio is too high. It would be nice if we could have an option that basically instructs your players to keep passes close to the ground even if the passing distance is above your nominal passing instructions - untill there's absolutely no choice.

Edited by thomit

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5 minutes ago, thomit said:

I'd still want a button on the tactics screen that says "keep the ball on the ground", because no matter what you do there will be too many high balls (if you as manager want to avoid those as much as possible). I don't expect no high balls at all, that would be silly, but the ratio could and should be lower. As it is - even if you got all the tactical tweaks and roles right - the ratio is too high.

Do you have real life data to back up those statistical claims?

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2 minutes ago, Barside said:

Do you have real life data to back up those statistical claims?

No. I watch my matches. That's how I know that I see too many high balls. That is; too many high passes to players that aren't physically equipped to receive them.

Edited by thomit

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6 minutes ago, thomit said:

I don't expect no high balls at all, that would be silly, but the ratio could and should be lower.

do you think this is why they doont have one? so people cant say 'the keep the ball on the ground button doesnt work'?

i would like it mentioned in a news feed, that would be funny. like a - Messi destroyed by 6 foot 4 nobody all day long 

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2 minutes ago, thomit said:

No. I watch my matches. That's how I know that I see too many high balls. That is; too many high passes to players that aren't physically equipped to receive them.

this is why i think it is ME related, the players seem to have no concept of the players height. so make no allowances. or they do, to put it roughly in the air i guess, but there is no player comparison to realise how stupid they are being

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The next step is clear, start raising multiple ('000s) of examples in the ME bugs forum to demonstrate where the players are making consistently illogical decisions in the ME.

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4 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

this is why i think it is ME related, the players seem to have no concept of the players height. so make no allowances. or they do, to put it roughly in the air i guess, but there is no player comparison to realise how stupid they are being

Quite. In real life, Barcelona's players know that they would be wise to keep the ball on the ground as much as possible, instinctively. The Barcelona players in FM don't know this; they have to be told. So ... why not have a button that tells them, straight and simple?

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6 minutes ago, thomit said:

Quite. In real life, Barcelona's players know that they would be wise to keep the ball on the ground as much as possible, instinctively. The Barcelona players in FM don't know this; they have to be told. So ... why not have a button that tells them, straight and simple?

im going to stick to my dont want people complaining it doesnt stop it 100% theory lol

10 minutes ago, Barside said:

The next step is clear, start raising multiple ('000s) of examples in the ME bugs forum to demonstrate where the players are making consistently illogical decisions in the ME.

there are people that do, im sure. but how many thousands would you need? how many different situations are there in the game? 

i think a simple  'he is 5 foot nothing stop being so fricking stupid' touch line instruction would suit me more than doing all that work :). do you seriously not think players in real life know better, as  @thomit said here? how many training bust ups would there be if you gave Messi balls to his head all day like that? thats just in training, i cant imagine he likes to lose anywhere...

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24 minutes ago, thomit said:

No. I watch my matches. That's how I know that I see too many high balls. That is; too many high passes to players that aren't physically equipped to receive them.

Then in my opinion you've not explored all of the tactical options available to you. I've not had any problems emulating the commonly raised Barcelona (Pep) style, it requires a but more attention to detail but I suspect not anywhere near as much as is required irl.

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I haven't experienced this, personally. For a succession save with Rangers, I signed Matthew Knox and left him upfront as the lone wolf with wingers playing "whipped" crosses. He scored for fun as the slowworms like Liam Lindsay and the other Scottish defenders didn't knew he was already 2 feet away from them!

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I think the "keep the ball on the ground" instruction would be a good thing.

That said, I'm not convinced there is a general "long ball" problem in FM (particularly not this FM where they've deliberately nerfed crossing). Usually long balls (in life as well as simulations) are played because the defender in possession of the ball can't identify any decent passing options to get the ball forward rather than as a conscious attempt to create aerial contests. 

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

I think the "keep the ball on the ground" instruction would be a good thing.

That said, I'm not convinced there is a general "long ball" problem in FM (particularly not this FM where they've deliberately nerfed crossing). Usually long balls (in life as well as simulations) are played because the defender in possession of the ball can't identify any decent passing options to get the ball forward rather than as a conscious attempt to create aerial contests. 

Crossing hasn't been nerf'd at all but that might be a discussion for another thread.

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i dont think the crossing in nerfed. its likes Barnes said - the only way to beat them is to get around the back!

 

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"Nerfed crossing" was shorthand for "taken a large number of steps to reduce the FM16 level of effectiveness of big floaty crosses to a striker who's decent in the air, usually from a fullback ". I was under the impression that this included reduced crossing accuracy as well as better goalkeeping, marking and pressing and less unerring finishing after making thirty yard runs to nod home from a narrow angle beyond the back post, but I wasn't suggesting it was problematic. (But it is enough of a step change for me to be checking the "cross less" box rather than the "cross more" box)

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i think i had a problem a couple of years back with the fullbacks getting huge ratings, yeah. never found it too problematic though. depends if you rely on them i guess, i usually have them arriving late in safer situations myself. if i saw long balls forward to often, i do try to reduce them regardless of how effective they are

i have made a commitment to play the game the right way :)

 

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36 minutes ago, Barside said:

Then in my opinion you've not explored all of the tactical options available to you. I've not had any problems emulating the commonly raised Barcelona (Pep) style, it requires a but more attention to detail but I suspect not anywhere near as much as is required irl.

I don't believe at all that it has got anything to do with my tactical instructions. They are fine. It is just that I see Ramsey from central midfield position with a clear passing option to Walcott out wide, either low directly to Walcott's feet, or in behind the opposing left back for Walcott to run for, not doing any of those, but instead opts to feed Walcott a high ball to his head, where the opposing full back is in control pretty easily. This happens too often (not always, mind), and I'm convinced that is is related to the players' decision making, and therefore the m.e. It is about the virtual Ramsey not knowing that a high ball to a marked Walcott is probably not a good idea, where the real Ramsey would be totally aware of this.

Edited by thomit

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1 minute ago, thomit said:

I don't believe at all that it has got anything to do with my tactical instructions. They are fine. It is just that I see Ramsey from central midfield position with a clear passing option to Walcott either low directly to his feet, or in behind the opposing left back for Walcott to run for, not doing any of those, but instead opts to feed Walcott a high ball to his head, where the opposing full back is in control pretty easily. This happens too often (not always, mind), and I'm convinced that is is related to the players' decision making, and therefore the m.e. It is about the virtual Ramsey not knowing that a high ball to a marked Walcott is probably not a good idea, where the real Ramsey would be totally aware of this.

Then get those examples raised in the bugs forum, posting anecdotal evidence in GD is of very little use.

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26 minutes ago, Barside said:

Then get those examples raised in the bugs forum, posting anecdotal evidence in GD is of very little use.

Is it a bug though? Is it not simply a case where the m.e. has one of it's shortcomings? Is it not just that the m.e. does not properly compute? I certainly don't expect the m.e. to be perfect, and god knows it isn't ... but this issue is something that it doesn't do very well, in  my opinion, and my thinking is just that maybe .... maybe another m.e. mechanic - with a button - could be a solution? (Obviously, I don't know how hard it would be to implement).

This is a discussion about something that clearly some of us find to be an issue, and as such is interesting to discuss in itself. Posting it in the bugs section would pretty much be the end of discussion. Getting different opinions on the matter is much better to get in the GD or the Tactical sections, is it not?

As far as I know there's no "ME Forum", so ... we discuss the m.e. here.

Edited by thomit

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Shortcoming or bug are the same things in respect of the ME, tbh calling it the ME bugs forum is probably a inaccurate description as it really is the only place to discuss the ME with SI staff as they so very rarely venture into GD threads.

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Got to say I do experience this sort of thing in my Celtic save. A player will have 2/3 passing options where can make an easy pass to feet, ends up playing in the air, even when unmarked ends up with player heading back to other team. Gets really frustrating when there was a better pass right next to him as well.

Doesnt happen all the time, but then for some reason players turn derp for a little while playing these types of passes.

Plus my goalkeeper, I shouldn't have to tell him not to try hoofing it to my 5"6 winger every time. Should just never go there.

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I am managing Liverpool. Here are some recent statistics against continental teams that have striker not specializing as a target man. I think this goes some way to demonstrating that there is a fairly serious problem in the way the ME works in general. Players have NO idea about each others' relative size, and they will NOT understand that their high balls are not working. All these stats are from AI teams, intentionally, because I wish to demonstrate that the AI does not realize what's going on, irrespective of what the player does. The positions where this problems is most glaringly obvious are AML, AMC, AMR and SC. Unless Peter Crouch plays there.

 

1)  Liverpool vs. Atletico Madrid, 3-0, their striker: Kevin Gameiro, 172 cm, Jumping Reach 7, headers attempted 12, won 3, personal rating 6.0.

2) Liverpool vs. Olympiakos, 5-0, their striker: Brown Ideye, 180 cm, Jumping Reach 10, headers attempted 11, won 3, personal rating 6.4

3) Sevilla vs. Liverpool, 1-3, their striker: Alberto Paloschi, 182 cm, Jumping Reach 10, headers attempted 15, won 6, personal rating 6.9. Also, in the same match, on the wing there was Pablo Sarabia, Jumping Reach 7, headers attempted 10, won 1.

4) Liverpool vs. Legia Warszawa, 4-0, their striker: Nemanja Nikolic, 180 cm, Jumping Reach 9, headers attempted 13, won 0, personal rating 6.7

5) Liverpool vs. Olympique Lyonnais 2-0, their striker: Houssem Aouar, 170 cm, Jumping Reach 6, headers attempted 15, won 2, personal rating 6.8. On the wing, they had Alexandre Lacazette, Jumping Reach 8, headers attempted 11, won 3.

 

To me, these are sad stats. Teams keep playing ping-pong, sending the ball high over and over again, despite the fact that it's clearly not working. And they never learn.

 

And as @craiigman quite rightly points out, goalkeepers in particular have a tendency to hoof high balls towards wingers, who tend to be small and lose the ball. Again, there is no way to stop this.

Edited by Guest

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This interests me as anything that can make  the forums implode with rage posts about difficulty the AI more robust competition is up my alley. However it's not an area I've paid much attention too, therefore can't say anything indepth. Just wanted to say that just looking at overall header challenges made is as flawed as the aforementioned FB "issue" on FM 2016, which for some incorrectly was a "crossing" issue, when it was more like a "runs of forward bombing backs not getting properly tracked + some cross defending + fb passes incorrectly awarded a "key pass" causing further rating bumps" issue. At least as far as I remember. Which in parts has us now lead to the "wingers defending too wide issue" as part of the response to it, which includes some of my primary concerns now on this, which is why I haven't much noted such big-time "Header issues" (all about viably personal priorities). :) Still miss the feed to head to feet old Target Man instructions too though.

 

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

 

And as @craiigman quite rightly points out, goalkeepers in particular have a tendency to hoof high balls towards wingers, who tend to be small and lose the ball. Again, there is no way to stop this.

This would be an important distinction to make for several reasons, as each is connected to differentt tactics (and manager attributes) for a start. Even within the game's many limitations, there is ways to keep the ball on the floor more of the time, after all, same as encouraging lower crosses high up the pitch. I took a look at the last few matches from City for instance, part of the reason being that Guardiola has a few possession based bias. Prime being that they employ Aguero up top. As to what they translate is for SI to assess, not sure if keeper distribution can also be affected. But either way, most of the header challenges in this are off goal kicks / keeper clearances, with that to be treated separately. Despite losing like 2/10 in all of those, the rating was 7.0-8.2 respectively as he scored, but as that isn't my primary area of concern, I have never taken a look how much lost/won headers are weighted into this. Ideally, it should depend on the context hopefully, but knowing the ratings, if they are much weighted, they probably aren't much contextually which equally would be to approached with cautious (same as the fb ratings in parts on previous). There would also need to be a seperation made between delivery from open play and free kicks, which naturally is also connected to tactics some (I would assume a few IDK and corners lumped into the box may lead to  a few header challenges by forwards in generally).

PGAT3p5.jpg

Would love to hear more ineresting analysis in the future. :) Btw, that point about player "common sense" may be in parts also a valid one, that players themselves adapting, at least to a reasonably degree.... cue in "players don't follow my instructions" Steam review, thumbs down. I mean, if somebody was hellbend on proving everybody wrong that Messi would be better in the air than CR7 as well, who is anyone to argue?!

Edited by Svenc

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Guest

I just played a match against Tottenham. So, Philippe Coutinho, my AML, was against Kyle Walker, their DR. Kyle Walker is approximately 5 inches taller than Coutinho. It was heartbreaking. My goalie had the ball at his feet, he wanted to open the play, and what does he do? I'm looking at him and thinking, don't play that high ball to Coutinho, you cannot be stupid enough to do it, you've already seen it doesn't work. And what does he do? He hoofs that damn long ball to Coutinho, over and over again. Kyle Walker wins it. Instant counter-attack.

 

So, in effect, what I had to fear the most in the game were counter-attacks resulting directly from my goalkeeper's idiotic decision concerning where to play that first ball.

 

Coutinho's stats: on the wing, headers attempted 11, won 0.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think this is going to be acknowledged or commented upon by the game developers. I hope it will, though.

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12 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

I just played a match against Tottenham. So, Philippe Coutinho, my AML, was against Kyle Walker, their DR. Kyle Walker is approximately 5 inches taller than Coutinho. It was heartbreaking. My goalie had the ball at his feet, he wanted to open the play, and what does he do? I'm looking at him and thinking, don't play that high ball to Coutinho, you cannot be stupid enough to do it, you've already seen it doesn't work. And what does he do? He hoofs that damn long ball to Coutinho, over and over again. Kyle Walker wins it. Instant counter-attack.

What do you think a real manager would do in that situation?

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

To me, these are sad stats. Teams keep playing ping-pong, sending the ball high over and over again, despite the fact that it's clearly not working. And they never learn.

I reckon that's a level of adaptive learning which is beyond the capabilities of a game that has minimum processing requirements which are met by a decade old cpu, would be lovely to have that level of awareness & intelligence but we have to be realistic in our expectations

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I am no expert on AI, but you may be correct.

 

However, "Avoid High Balls", or a tactical instruction of a similar sort, is definitely not too much to ask. It's comparable to "Be More Expressive" or "Stay On Feet".

Edited by Guest

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As I previously posted selecting fewer risky passes should AFAIK do what you're asking & as for the keeper you just change their distribution instructions, it'd also be interesting to see the tactic you're currently using as we've not ruled out that the players are doing what you're asking them to do.

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