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Harpoon76

Create fewer but better chances on goal?

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Posted (edited)

Subtitle : It's like wading through sludge (not much fun)

In my 11th season with Crewe and we're flying high but I want to win something big (just the FA Cup & EFL Cup so far).

59512b46c68fb_CreweHistory.thumb.JPG.ca53cbb093c0d045019eca2abe866dbf.JPG

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We're currently 4th in the league, though had been 2nd before getting a nosebleed from being so high up.  We were going very nicely until Man United tonked us - we were 2-nil down inside 10 minutes and just horrific all match.  I thought we'd bounced back from that but were poor against Stoke & Everton. West Ham had two shots on target all match and scored from both.

Man United aside, against the teams above us we do well, beating both Man City & Chelsea 3-0 was very enjoyable (scoring mainly on the counter - Man City play a very, very high defensive line).

Cardiff played a 4-4-1-1 and we dominated the match:

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Yes, they didn't have a shot at all during the match, yet we couldn't break them down.  Only 1 cross completed all match which is poor.

I've just lost 1-0 to QPR (my GK made a right Horlicks on a long shot in the 90th minute and didn't move allowing an easy tap-in).

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QPR played the ultra-popular (in the Premier League at least) 4-2-3-1, so there should be space to use but we always seem to give the ball away with a bad pass or something.

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Tactics

I was playing this:

EqoIctEl.png

However, I felt the AP wasn't influencing the game enough in the AMC slot and it also meant the two CMs spent a lot of time chasing the ball from one flank to the other.  Prior to this, I had an AM(A) and the AP back in the CM.

So, the AP dropped back to the CM level:

GRUNbJcl.png

  • I picked a Fluid mentality to bring everyone closer together - we need to get support to the strikers when attacking, not leave them too far up the pitch and isolated. 
  • The WBs provide width, though I lost my world-class right WB when Man Utd paid his £70 million minimum release fee :(
  • The DLP(D) should cover the right WB going forward and also provide direction from deep (I have good youngster with excellent vision, passing & technique (details))
  • The AP(S) on the other side should sit in the hole (like it says in the TC) and direct the attacks
  • The CM(A) should be getting forward to provide a goal scoring option, arriving late in the box which causes defenders issues in tracking his runs
  • The DLF(S) holds up the ball, perhaps playing in his striker partner or waiting for support from CM.  He can then attack the box from deep
  • The poacher should be in the box and scoring goals.  Simples.  My first choice scored 48 goals in a season two years ago and is strong, though lacking a little in pace (details and history)

Overall, I want to break teams down by movement and passing, rather than dribbling.  We need to be patient and work hard for the opening, not just hit & hope.  Which is where, I think, we're not getting it right.  Crosses seem to be into a busy area, so get blocked, never find an open attacker or if they do find somebody, he doesn't have time to shoot properly.

I've tried playing more aggressive and quicker tempo, but then players start trying too many long shots or not making the right decision.  Slowing things down seems to go too far the other way and it's all a bit pedestrian.

Help please!

 

Edited by Harpoon76

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how would the ap on the left play as a dlp? i find having a dlp on defend on both sides of a 3 man midfield works well to both defend when you wb goes forward, and slows down the midfield play without being too defensive. it also creates great variety in play, as the wbs and an attacking player in the middle of the midfield create different outlets for play. quite often my right wb gets played in from the left sided dlp also, as he finds space from the opponent being pulled around from the controlled midfield

another option could be to try the poacher in a more complete roll, so he pulls more defenders around to make space and less congest the area in general. especially against teams lower down that maybe dont give the space a man city will. qpr might be in the same formation, but the will be more direct and not pushing up the same way city do

i think you are performing well in general, how much tweaking do you want and how much of it will just being needing a bit of a squad improvement?

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Consider the players your using and not just the roles + duties.  In the the 343 type formation I think its important for your central midfielders to both be good defensively.  This gives a base for the front 3 and the wide 2 to do there stuff.  A DLP/AP role is fine to use, but it needs the right player, rather than a specialist creator he needs to be able to intercept passes and get around the pitch to win tackles.  His partner is likely the stronger defensively, and not as creative but maybe better physically.  Maybe the reason they're chasing the ball from flank to flank is because they aren't good enough defensively to actually read passes to intercept or win a tackler or quick enough to do either?

Unless playing a slower possession style I wouldn't use two playmakers in the midfield 3, they'll play deeper to collect the ball.  The leaves the WB's out wide, the DLF-S dropping and the Poacher the only presence in the box.  Consider using other roles and adding PI's if you need them to be more creative.  Your CM-A should help improve the presence around the box and later runs into the box but an AMC (AM-A / SS-A) would offer a quicker link and earlier runs past the DLF-S.  I'm also concerned about having a DLP and AP as your midfield pair, whilst you have 3 CB's are they good enough defensively to shield them (as I mentioned in first paragraph)?  Your DLP attribute image is too small to read and goes blurry when zoomed.

Also consider if your performing better than you should be with the players you have?

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Posted (edited)

Will screen shot some of the other players tomorrow, but here's a better one of my young DLP

VOxTrJEl.png

I've come from having 2 x CMs + 1 x AMC (either as AP or AM(A)) due to the CMs getting pulled around too much - will go back over the players I have and how they might fit though.

Good point on perhaps we are doing too well.  I can buy good players (eg wonderkids) in the transfer windows but not ones already described as "world-class" as they are beyond my budget (especially if the really big boys are interested in a player).

I've tried CF(S) + CF(A) up front but the dribbling into dead-ends frustrates me and gets away from my theory of "pass & move" (put simply).  My other annoyance is forwards wondering offside too often in some matches (despite not having the hated PPM of "tries to beat offside trap").

Thanks for the comments & thoughts so far

Edited by Harpoon76

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2 hours ago, Harpoon76 said:

(despite not having the hated PPM of "tries to beat offside trap")

i actually like this ppm! especially for pass and move systems, where the forwards are a little deeper and involved in build up play

if you find a problem with any player dribbling too much, is it because they have that as a ppm or because they are being aloud to much freedom? maybe no other options for them? 

another thing to think about is making a cd a stopper to help fill the midfield in your 3 man defence, allowing the midfield to get forward a bit more comfortably

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Posted (edited)

Last match I played Inter (away) in the first knockout ground of the UEFA League.  Got a 1-1 draw which I suppose isn't bad.

Now I'm unsure if this is the problem, or just a knock-on and it's not actually the problem.  If that makes sense? Is it the cause or is it the effect?

BUzB8U1l.png

Total of 50 crosses attempted, only 2 completed though. Right WB 21 attempts and 2 successful.  Left WB 10 attempts, 0 success.  I know I lost my best right WB but both WBs seem to be plain dumb when it comes to crossing - they wait until they've been closed right down and then the ball pings off the defender, usually ending up with a corner.  Examples:

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Some player information:

DLPs

59520a27ec4c1_MuhammetKocer_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.0cb0491b8ce4dc1800f1f1ce55204193.png59520a386b984_JeffreyWillems_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.77bd860712b1e3d9f9ebc1c0b1d5e655.png

AP or CM

59520a248a848_BernardDoumbia_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.dc541e8def0a2d3c8a279d6199710d58.png59520a1c789ff_RaulCoste_OverviewProfile-2.thumb.png.90265bb18ded4188eb5c6b4a3c5a095a.png

AP (both more natural at AMC than CM)

59520a1a176dd_GuyBarros_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.40460d5e162d2271568f2befa428d3ab.png59520a17e7210_BriceJulienne_OverviewProfile-2.thumb.png.d8aad9ad2ffc288b00cfadf9bc9dad46.png

Perhaps I should be looking to go back to the AMC and try either an AP or Treq in that slot.  Barros is a bit low of finishing but still young.

Forwards

59520a2cf33f7_ChrisRogers_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.97f15b80c1077793663652612617605a.png59520a2f60ab3_ValerioCalvaruso_OverviewProfile-3.thumb.png.1e7e69367ce6e1226eca4eaf899fd725.png59520a2ac0ae2_GersonCheuk-A-Lam_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.c2302bf0cb884e99874b586df068ea35.png

Chris Roger has world-class potential and is already an England regular.  Calvaruso is lethal in the box, though seems to be inconsistent this season (he had back-to-back hat-tricks before Christmas).  Gerson has just arrived - needs to improve his finishing a lot but good as a creative striker.

Raul Coste_ Overview Profile.png

Edited by Harpoon76

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Had a quick look and I think what I was saying about personnel is right regarding chasing the ball around.  You don't have a midfielder who can tackle or a player who reads the game really well to intercept.  It looks like you have your 3cb to defend and rest are all attackers.

Even if you have players who are listed as CF I don't like using that role, never mind two of them.  Asking them to do everything needs exceptional decision making to pick the right option. I prefer to give a more focused role that fits the tactic.

I still think you need more presence in the box, CF and AP roles aren't going to offer that, and depending on the player used neither will a Treq.

If your WB's aren't good at picking the right cross then tell them the type/location.

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Thanks Summatsupeer - I think I'm totally lost at the moment though.

Good win against Bournemouth (though they had a player sent off after 10 minutes) and progress in the Europa League, it all goes wrong again.

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Liverpool scored twice from outside the box

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Yet my poacher can't score from here :seagull: He just poke the ball straight into the GKs hands.

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Hull threatened once in my box and scored

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Back to the drawing board I think.
 

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Posted (edited)

Don't judge it from just the results, you had the better chances from the look of it, especially in the Liverpool game.

How does your tactic look for those games?  Have you modified anything?

Edited by summatsupeer

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11 hours ago, Harpoon76 said:

Total of 50 crosses attempted, only 2 completed though. Right WB 21 attempts and 2 successful.  Left WB 10 attempts, 0 success.  I know I lost my best right WB but both WBs seem to be plain dumb when it comes to crossing - they wait until they've been closed right down and then the ball pings off the defender, usually ending up with a corner.  Examples:

it may be a combination of there poor decisions, them not having the pace or ability to go passed the full back, or more importantly, not having enough players forward to draw the full back out of position before making the run

the only one you can control is the defensive positioning. you can either do this by the obvious getting more men forward to disrupt the team shape ( this means that it stops being a one on one situation where your wing back is obviously struggling) or staying deeper to pull there defensive forward before releasing the wing back into space left by the defense chasing you out

if you are struggling for quality chances, the latter is obviously more in the direction you want to go. if that ends up being the case, you might want to consider training one of your play makers to switch ball to the other flank if they dont already. as i said before, a quick change of play can get the most stubborn of defences out of position

i definitely think 50 crosses is a sign that something needs to be changed though, even if it isnt the main problem. i would imagine most of your attacks must be going that way, else you would be having an attack a minute lol. i dont think i have ever had a team be successful just through one attacking style 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks folks - thought I made progress but back to :seagull:

Tactic evolved again to include the AM(A) to provide more threat in the box.  Defensive mentality - low risk, so therefore possession orientated.  WBs are both WB(S) so, hard-coded Get Further Forward, I've set them to Sit Narrower and Cut Inside With the Ball - stop them being isolated and having no option but to try a wild cross which were going nowhere.

5954f93263720_CreweAlexandra_Overview-6.thumb.png.9bb38d32c04199a929aadcb1eedfef7f.png

5954f924aebbe_CreweAlexandra_SeniorFixtures-2.thumb.png.d144276631b54022fc89f71e83c4f188.png

Absolute fabulous run after the Hull draw.  The two AM(A) I use (Juilenne & Barros) are suddenly linking up with the two strikers, with neat passing interchange pulling teams apart before one of the front three scores when through on the goal.

Then it's like some sort of binary switch - all the movement stops, passes go anywhere but to a team mate and everything just turns into torture.  5954fa85f00ea_CrewevLeverkusen_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.cc4e1a3fda8bc7b04822aae4552da8e6.png

Gutted to lose in the UEFA semi-final 2nd leg (won 2-1 away) - Leverkusen scored two identical goals from outside the area, having done absolutely nothing for the first 30 minutes.  Two players with 12 & 13 for long shots are smashing them in from 25 yards.

I just don't understand what changes.  Yes, we are doing well, so teams are going to play defensively but we aren't playing some super-gunho, all out attack.  I don't understand where the player movement and link-up goes.

Edited by Harpoon76

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Harpoon76 said:

I just don't understand what changes.  Yes, we are doing well, so teams are going to play defensively but we aren't playing some super-gunho, all out attack.  I don't understand where the player movement and link-up goes.

I play a similar attacking concept on my save.

Curious, on the matches where you are struggling is the opposing team in a 3DC or 2 DC w/ DMC formation? Similarly are your most successful matches vs teams with 2 DC and no DMC (particularly vs 4-4-2s)?

In my (limited) experience this is what happens with that attack:

That front 3 is boss against a 2 DC defense because it creates a natural overload on the DCs right in front of goal. Great. Easy goals.

But, it can really struggle vs 3 DC or when there is a DMC. Now your overload becomes a lot of one-on-ones and because you can't overload the flanks to compensate (because of the narrow formation) it is difficult for your players to get a pass to an open player in a threatening position. As a result they take a pot-shot from deep or pass it around until it gets taken away.

Look for ways to shake it up in these situations. Turn one of your front 3 into a F9 or a Treq and see if they can't pull off a defender or move them back a strata to create more space. Meanwhile bring up a CM(a) or a BBM with get further forward to try to exploit that opening. Alternatively look for a different formation to play against those formations.

 

Edited by VinceLombardi

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By far the most common formation we face is 4-2-3-1 (2 x CM + AML/AMC/AMR), with some 4-4-2.  So either should mean my two CM,  the AMC and 2 forwards give me the extra man in the middle, providing options to cut through the defence (having remained patient and worked the opening).

Consistency seems to be all over the shop at times.

595cb34d9f6d9_CreweAlexandra_SeniorFixtures-6.thumb.png.7f76c35630ffa0242215079a2b0e504c.png

Lost to Hearts  in the CL.  Way too much shooting from outside the box (which I struggle to properly understand)

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Lost to Sunderland after they got a ridiculous penalty and their GK rated 7.0 for saving everything chucked at him.

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Yet Monaco we were all over

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Likewise Bournemouth (4-4-2)

595cc33966a0f_CrewevBournemouth_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.66c941b6f4317aef0e963cac264d4001.png

Current tactic:

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I've just reduced the tempo from Higher back to Normal to see if that helps with reducing the long shots - I had up turned it as I thought that Defensive isn't particularly quick, so wanted to encourage a higher tempo to keep the ball moving.

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Posted (edited)

Lots of long shots is typically either down to compressing the area, i.e. having guys sitting atop of other (the defending team tries to do keep the area small by default anyway) and/or players running out of options, which also depends on the OP formation and whether they drop deep or push up (i.e. Hearts maybe having dropped deep and having lots of centrally players against the narrow formation, at which point a regularly wide pass into advanced wide areas can always be a totally key component). As such, I'm suspicious of narrow set-ups where there isn't one guy on a really aggressive job, and the "exploit the middle TI" would make the CM/s play a more aggressive game too, compounding to it (I think on older release it even locked forward runs of wide players so that everything would go down the middle). Same as the more defensive mentalities keep the pitch more narrow (then again, if combined with the WBs themselves to stay wider, that can give them space). At such extreme rates such above, the cause should be an easy spot watching the shots back to back. It is crucial to separate between set piece attempts and those from open play, which the game has never done (set piece attempts can pile up to huge amounts, and means you would create nothing from play, which means the patterns of play don't get through, and as matches aren't settled purely by tactics, neither do the players individually).

Some of the best long-term conversion rates in more recent releases (see team report stats and compare!!) I actually had with 3 central players off a narrow formation always staying deeper (3 cms on defend or thereabouts), as it a) isn't necessary to cram every player into the area to score and b) a pass played back forces defenses sitting deep to push up again / open space between their lines, visibly). Whilst that was merely an "experimental" thing, it fuels into that "compression of the area" theme. Very simply, the bigger you stretch the pitch, which is some risk as it means a higher likelyhood of dropping the ball, the more you increase he chance of scoring, and there is two dimensions to that. With the above screenshots, the specifics are guess work, of course.


Case in point, an uploaded match as pkm from somebody managing Bayern (shots within reasonable range from sett pieces marked green).

OUxlHsu.jpg

Cause:

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A top heavy 4-2-3-1 with both wide players always cutting inside with the ball to where the AMC/FWD tends to be either way, the left back doing the same in possession likewise, and the full backs not getting hugely involved (barely a pass made into wide advanced areas, illustrated by the arrow).

The goal was only scored because of a horrible defensive mistake by the "statistically" hugely dominated opponent, making this a draw, and with a bit of additional bad luck, the opponent might have even won that, as despite only getting into the box like thrice, the biggest chance fell to it (cross, well-timed header only inches wide). It is of note that AI managers switch mentalities, duties, etc. dynamically, most likely after goals are scored, so they add risk/width dynamically, depending on whether they want a goal or not, rather than sticking to it and praying for the best.


 

Edited by Svenc

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Svenc said:

Lots of long shots is typically either down to compressing the area, i.e. having guys sitting atop of other (the defending team tries to do keep the area small by default anyway) and/or players running out of options ...

... Some of the best long-term conversion rates in more recent releases (see team report stats and compare!!) I actually had with 3 central players off a narrow formation always staying deeper (3 cms on defend or thereabouts), as it a) isn't necessary to cram every player into the area to score and b) a pass played back forces defenses sitting deep to push up again / open space between their lines, visibly).

I have had very good results using 2 DMC(s) with hold position and shoot less for the reasons outlined above.

They stay back well clear of the opposing defensive line, which prevents the opposing midfielders from pulling deep and marking out my more attacking players (particularly my SS (a) w/roam at AMC). This, in turn gives the SS and my strikers lots of space to work with and puts them 1v1 with defenders. 

If the opposing team does pull back their midfielders, then my DMC open up for easy back(ish) passes to recycle possession and pull the opposing midfielders out again. Even on a high tempo, direct attacking/highly structured setup, my strikers will take these back passes if they don't have a shot, even with it their stupid aggressive shoot first, ask questions later instructions.

It might be worth looking at your midfield roles with the above goals in mind to see if a little tweaking might help with the long shot issues.

 

Edited by VinceLombardi

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I've gone back to trying a flat 3 in midfield.

Currently playing Dortmund

595d051273c92_BorussiaDortmundvCrewe_PitchFull-3.thumb.png.c81568d93e1b65b5d80a5c19bd55bf3f.png

Ignore the actual players - wanted to show playing formations and I'm playing Defensive / Fluid, TIs of Dribble Less and Slightly Wider.

595d050fc780e_BorussiaDortmundvCrewe_PitchFull.thumb.png.65c385d379c054650be1d0a5fa480132.png

Above, Rogers, my DLF(S) picks up the ball near half way.

595d050acccbd_BorussiaDortmundvCrewe_PitchFull-2.thumb.png.5023f018d469477478e07ec95fda96f8.png

He then dribbles up to the edge of the box but then just wastes possession with a pointless long shot.  Which puzzles me...

  • Not a huge amount of passing options open to him
  • However, he's on a Support duty and has the PI to hold up the ball
  • Defensive is quite a low tempo, so he shouldn't be rushing into making poor decisions

Shouldn't be he holding up the ball, letting the CM getting further forward in support and then develop things further from there?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Harpoon76 said:

Shouldn't be he holding up the ball, letting the CM getting further forward in support and then develop things further from there?

 

 

Maybe he got spooked by the pressure. Poor composure, bravery, or aggression, or decisions?

You had a great option on the left flank. What is your passing range and his vision?

Also poor plays happen. This may just be a fluke and not representitive of the other long shots. Or it might. You will know based on what you see.

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Passing range would be normal, as my DLF(S) he would have more risky passes.  He is this player:

595d1cb9e7cce_ChrisRogers_OverviewProfile-2.thumb.png.d0bc19ed35eb1493d1c8fbb6411cd7cc.png

So I've watched probably 60 minutes of the Dortmund match in real time.

595d1ce208c7b_BorussiaDortmundvCrewe_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.5aebc6f25d561eb15f61c49de47ff723.png

We created 4 chances about 7 or 8 yards out and the Dortmund GK saves every single one :seagull:

They hit the bar once and scored from just fluke rubbish like this:

Ended up going to a flat back 4, two CMs, an AMC and three strikers.  Equalised and then should have won it in injury time but yet again we hit the GK from 7 yards, not the goal.

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Posted (edited)

That may be a fluke how it's finished (hard to judge the build-up*), but the thing that would be on-topic as hinted at prior with actual pkms revealing was those shots and how they are build up, the angle of the pass, etc. not the "flukes" conceded. It is the patterns that repeat to watch out for, not some random fart. Before doing any that you would do you nerves good to determine whether there was a general issue (team report -> shot statistics, can be calculated manually for shots on target likewise, simple rule of three, will be displayed for all teams scouted too) or whether it was a specific type of opponent (formation, general approach). One-off anything goes, including misses (if those are the narrow one on one type open play, I wouldn't expect to score more than 1 in 4 to 5), the keeper edges those typically. Provided that were the case, the more likely outcome would have been a 1-0 win. Without benchmarks your chasing your own tail. Without the ability to a) roughly determine what was bad luck and what wasn't and b) take bad luck onto your chin, your fun may be impacted (don't trust the post match reports).


For what it's worth, Rogers dribbling in the above shot, as dribbles basically are a (forward) run with the ball, always extremely tough from a still shot, he seemed to have maneuvred into a cul de sac, hence the shot, though again, the thing that may be worth watching out for is repeat patterns. It's no rocket science, in particular as things tend to repeat anyway until something is switched. Getting somebody involved wide in more advanced areas of the pitch as quickly as possible has always been crucial to me in such formations, as that opens passing angles, and also balls played from wider more difficult angles. But the first thing to determine was if there is a general issue or not. Some bad luck is supposed to be part of the game as there shouldn't be many shots ever outside a tap-in / anything with the keeper completely wrong-footed that even touches a penalty, and those are still missed too... and then there's also player confidence and motivation slightly influencing.

Edited by Svenc

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Posted (edited)

Another day, another game...

Stoke score from a corner after 8 minutes and create nothing else at all until the 73 minute.  They rub salt in the wounds making it 3-nil in injury time after pinball in my box.

595ded4690b35_CrewevStoke_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.2685ab4540d2966f9b08cfb2ef5df9e7.png

Despite having the best shot accuracy in the league and the second best goal scorer, we can't score despite several attempts from 7 yards out.

595df425d3bcd_CreweAlexandra_Overview-10.thumb.png.8aeef518b9f6d81c3e99d333129773f9.png

Opponent GK rating for the last few matches

Stoke : 7.4
Dortmund : 7.2
Man Utd : 7.5

Ho hum.

Edited by Harpoon76

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Posted (edited)

So, is this supposed to be a rant thread? As outlined it's difficult to hugely judge anything from the above, neither how often this happens, what the conversion looks like overall (to be more precise, those are displayed in the stats tab in the team report, not the overview), what those shots actually looked like (random fluke goals conceded are the least to look out for... nor on-topic). It looks a bit like: Whenever there's one of them matches that felt harsh, they're reported in some way atm.

Edited by Svenc

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Yes, I am frustrated as the team is having these matches constantly in the league at the moment - we create what should be good chances , yet 2 or 3 good strikers can't beat the keeper.  I know strikers have bad patches (was it Torres at Chelsea who couldn't hit barn door for weeks?), so I rotate players to give somebody else a chance yet they can't score either.  I'd accept losing 3-0 if we created nothing but we're not and I don't understand what I'm not seeing in the game right now.

I'll happily provide a pkm if somebody has the time to look through it.

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Posted (edited)

I'd be interested in that, but only if supplied with further info in terms of the bigger picture, the aforementioned questions precisely answered of: how often does this actually happen, what do the overall shot conversion stats look like in general. "Random" pkms you're not able to put into context are oft of limited use (every team on this drops point it needn't...), even though they can show things going on in a specific match [indeed, taking a look through curious matches also AI vs AI has helped me getting a better understanding of the game before, which is why pkms are my preference.... not least because typically there is always such an AI man involved, and he has put up tactics too, plus manages matches dynamically]. It won't show much going on outside of the matches, but a persisting and repeat issue with finishing has always been tactical at the core. Issues I then could avoid myself. :p As for the general dynamic of that Stoke match, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict that Stoke in particular after the 1-0 may have made it more difficult to score by keeping additionially men behind the ball dropping deep (if not quite to such extremes),  question then is if they'd be reasonable challenged enough to break that down, i.e. what was bad luck and what if any wasn't.

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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Information...

Tactics

Two tactics I've been using

595e5e407654b_CreweAlexandra_Overview-12.thumb.png.68442e1c64a23548119504c2c6cc41e6.png

  • Intended to be possession football - Defensive mentality so low risk
  • Fluid to keep everybody together (no DM), encourage the AM to track back and only the DLP, so no flair playmaker (so need all players to show some creativity)
  • TI of Dribble Less to encourage players to pass and move
  • Three CDs should give a sold back line at all times
  • WBs providing width (but obviously have to work hard to get back to defend).
    • WBs have Close Down Much Less - if the AI pushes a FB up behind the AML/AMR, the WB will usually go to close down the IF or W, leaving an easy overlap to the FB, so we want to stay deeper as five across the back.
  • DLP(D) to cover more aggressive WB
  • CM(S) to mix up defence and attack
  • Poacher to score goals, DLF(S) coming deep and dropping off to pull defenders out of position
  • AM(A) can then run into the space or play in the poacher
  • Against AI formations with a DM, the five man formation should beat 2 x CD and 2x CM with the extra player

595e5e437564b_CreweAlexandra_Overview-11.thumb.png.08e720ebb3b1ec89dfd676defd288ad5.png

  • Three in midfield - as posted previously, I got frustrated by the CMs in the above formation getting pulled from side-to-side, so dropped the AM back as a CM(A) to be more defensively solid
  • Standard mentality (see how the match is going and adjust)
  • TI of Shorter Passing & Dribble Less to encourage pass & move, plus SP lowers the tempo a little so we don't rush things
  • Otherwise similar to above, except the CM(A) needs to hammer forward to link up with the strikers

Fixtures

595e61000329d_CreweAlexandra_SeniorFixtures-7.thumb.png.611fb85a801b415c7def1200d0cd4a39.png

Games

Two PKMs attached for the 3-0 loss to Stoke and 1-1 draw with Dortmund.  In both I believe we created the better quality chances and should have won both matches.  Stoke scored two late goals but we should have put them away long before the 70 to 80 minute window IMO.

 

Borussia Dortmund v Crewe.pkm

Crewe v Stoke.pkm

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The next match I had was away against West Ham who played a 4-5-1 (unusual in the PL).  Took a surprise first half lead when my DLF finally scored from outside the box (13 hours without scoring!)

WH went 4-3-3 and poor defending cost us two goals.

The 3rd we conceded is comical - I'm laughing (not ranting) at how the attacker somehow comes out the middle of 4 or 5 of my players with the ball here

Still many too long shots - I expected the DLF to play in the poacher when he scored the first goal from outside the box.  Us hitting the post give my DLF a tap in for his 2nd but I still feel we should be converting more of these chances.  WH's strikers aren't any better than mine when you compare the stats.

595e6eb171996_WestHamvCrewe_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.d4f222333887fc604459d918c6b1275e.png

 

West Ham v Crewe.pkm

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Posted (edited)

General info:

Going by what you provided (still no overall conversion rates), you score 1.7 goals p/m and concede 1.2. Short off the best, better than the average on that front unless miscalculated.

Onto the matches at a quick glance, starting with Stoke. 1) There is two things missing. There is a switch to a back four in the 2nd half here, plus a 4-2-1-3ish used later on, which helps in the opponent winning the corner making it 0-3, as the 2 cms have it difficult to cover he width of the pitch, plus you're getting pinned back with the front four not much getting behind the ball. Prior to this you conceded a corner that way already. This looks really wretched, central forwards already don't do much defensively,an AMC on aggressive menality/duty who doesn't do much seems suicide, plus getting pinned back that way it's easy to see how this could backfire once you use that more often than doing the reverse (is there anything used not noted about? Think that 4-2-1-3 was brought up, that back four thing not). I only use 3 strikers off 4-3-3s, 3-4-3s, etc. personally.

Y88KOgm.jpg


Attacking-wise, things aren't brilliant, to me much looks funneled through the middle, that compression of play thing, though yes, it is on the more unfortunate end to 1) concede from the first corner (their only attempt until you would expose yourself later on, see above), or 2) concede three goals from corners in a single match, unless there was a general issue with conceding from those. Still not a hugely dominating performance attacking-wise, again marked set piece attempt under pressure in green, the best one was the centrally shot 13 which might/should have been taken, the type of pressured one on one off a centrally through ball from no. 9 typically always sees the keeper in the edge to save this. At Dortmund wasn't that big time dominating likewise, you did only get into their box before the 80th minute thrice, but then that's Dortmund away too. Should have // might have scored the counter attack at 62, otherwise except for a few attempts later on, closer than you made it out to be -- similar can be said about the match against West Ham (a few of those long shots are simply free kicks, the forward once getting isolated and a few actually the best option taken... one leading to a goal too).

What you should have spotted is their brief switch to 3 central forwards at half time when 0-1 down, but you kept on further pushing with your one guy on a defend duty sitting deep to recycle better, plus the 3 centre backs forced man on man against the 3 forwards on each interception (big time contributing to their comeback). I hated such switches, you're not alone. Those are "could have" wins to different degrees, not "should haves", plus there isn't a general big huge time conversion problem, though against Stoke you should have at least scored one (and not conceded 3 off corners, totally fluke usually). The stuff going on in each match is slightly different specifically too, plus in parts you are overestimating how huge your chances would be, probably due to frustration which may be eased by having benchmarks (team report stat page conversion rates)

Edited by Svenc

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Thank you Svenc.

Is this the statistics screen you wanted?  Can't say I've gone looking at it before (oops).

595f3c4c410de_CreweAlexandra_Stats.thumb.png.955635d321b85f1b6b80962b1fe2f832.png

I threw on an extra forward against Stoke to try to get back into the game.  Blow to morale aside, a 1-0 loss is the same as a 3-0 loss - no points!

I knew West Ham went 4-3-3 as I have the formations widget open at all time to spot such changes.  I didn't change my formation as I felt at 1-0 we shouldn't try to park the bus and that we should be able to counter-attack with them committing more men forward.

I do expect to funnel more attacks through the middle as that is where we have the most men - nature of the beast IMO with only WBs out wide.  In addition, having had Man Utd buy my best WB, I'm in a transition period whilst the two wonderkids I got develop, so my WBs are weak areas in terms of quality crossing.

Is the overall theory of my tactics sound?

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Harpoon76 said:

 

595f3c4c410de_CreweAlexandra_Stats.thumb.png.955635d321b85f1b6b80962b1fe2f832.png

I threw on an extra forward against Stoke to try to get back into the game.  Blow to morale aside, a 1-0 loss is the same as a 3-0 loss - no points!

I knew West Ham went 4-3-3 as I have the formations widget open at all time to spot such changes.  I didn't change my formation as I felt at 1-0 we shouldn't try to park the bus and that we should be able to counter-attack with them committing more men forward.

I do expect to funnel more attacks through the middle as that is where we have the most men - nature of the beast IMO with only WBs out wide.  In addition, having had Man Utd buy my best WB, I'm in a transition period whilst the two wonderkids I got develop, so my WBs are weak areas in terms of quality crossing.

Is the overall theory of my tactics sound?

 

Yes thanks, that stuff can oft appear fairly hidden. :D You can compare this screen to you opponents too (if scouted). The overall shot conversion is a cut above average, the conversion of on target shots (calculation: (goals scored / overall number of shots on target ) * 100 is below 25%, so not great but not that horrible either. That's the first steps to deal with the "rage", having realistic targets and looking what opponents at all do. You may also compare the records off your regular goal scorers to that of opponents, they have numbers in their profile too.

Re: Stoke agreeable, that 4-2-1-3 still looks highly suspect to me.
Re: West Ham, thing is, 3 central forwards are a bit of a "specialty" of the game. Firstly, what side in real football affords 3 forwards who often don't do much defensively as they do in-game. You were lucky to not concede immediately straight after kick off (minute 47ish). Every time you quickly hand the ball over due to further pushing, they whack that up to one of the forwards, who is then engaged by one of the cbs, and there generally is no spare man to cover. You could almost look at any of their interceptions between minute 45 and 60, this happens all the time, and each time they easily manage to break forward. Some deal with this by keeping a full back back so that there is additionally cover, I personally "kill" it some by simply not handing them the ball over that quickly. Retaining possession, maybe a less aggressive mentality, and every player in central midfield that stays deeper is somebody that allows you to control possession better.
Re: Funneling down the middle, the bigger you make the pitch, the bigger an area the opposition has to cover. Plus crosses/wide balls to me have always been a handy tool, they're typically a higher challenge to the keeper once they connect than a lot of one on ones off central through balls

Edited by Svenc

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I've personally had most success with Counter mentality - specially at Rangers I somehow (dunno how!) created something majestic which resulted in 35-40% possession, but from one to three deadly counters per game, almost 90% of them goals.

 

What I see in your tactic that can be improved is too many CBs - I would use a DM (usually a DLP) instead of the center CB, as usually breaking the opponent attacks start with him - in FM17, having a DM is probably the most key position if you want to succeed. I've made many tactics, many different instructions, the most successful always had that position :)

 

With that being said, I would put the right CM, as CM (s) and also maybe try to put the AMC as a 3rd striker (probably go for a F9 and DLF (S) with a Poacher on top). 

 

It seems risky, but the AI has great trouble handling 3 forwards, so hope it helps :)

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On 7/6/2017 at 19:16, Harpoon76 said:

 

595e5e437564b_CreweAlexandra_Overview-11.thumb.png.08e720ebb3b1ec89dfd676defd288ad5.png

What's my main concern about the tactics you give screens from is the lack of instructions. Trying to keep it simple never worked for me and it always ended up playing boring, dull and ultimately unsuccessful football. 

 

Is your Poacher tall or pacey? I mean, considering that you can either go for floating or whipped crosses (for example). Beginning with that, you can try and create a certain style of play you want performed :)

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Posted (edited)

Well, things improved after the last fixture screenshot I posted.  We lost the next match to West Ham, though were reasonably close to coming back from 3-0 down.

5965ea3be66fb_CreweAlexandra_SeniorFixtures-8.thumb.png.2d2988fdbb5767182fe1f73fd3960064.png

Was chuffed to get a 3-3 draw against Man City after being 3-0 down inside 25 minutes.

Goal 1: ball bounces of the shins of my CD

Goal 2: attempted pass by City player bounces off his own player

Goal 3: ball bounces off the back of my CD

Most recently, lost to a better Bayern Munich team.  Look at the ratings for their GK and back four :( - probably can't complain on that one.

5965ead6f1e54_FCBayernMunchenvCrewe_OverviewOverview.thumb.png.8016ba3a22db58e5f4f9c7d4a837f5ea.png

Stoke are rapidly becoming my bogey team.  After a well matched first half, my GK and CD contrived this shambles (reported as a bug)

In the second half they changed from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3.  Having clocked this, I thought "Hah!  Not this time".  I dropped back to Counter and moved the DLP from CM to DM level - he should then sit and screen the back three against the three forwards.

q6q0hKkl.png

Stoke attacking - my DLP(D) is reasonably central but they have two attackers overloading the right of my 3 CDs.  The WB needs to help out here

SF2KqO7l.png

One of the forwards has dropped off, dragging my CD out of line

9ymMs6Jl.png

The right CD is stepping up and the forward plays a nice ball into space to completely wrong foot my defence for the winning goal.

Major problems

1) Quality of crossing.  Not sure how I improve this beyond the obvious (but hard to achieve answer) of getting better players.  The WBs are the width to the formation and often the player in space, but the end results are poor.  These are my crossing stats for some of the matches:

  • Bournemouth - 1 cross out of 26 completed
  • Bayern - 1 out of 28
  • Stoke - 0 out of 25
  • Arsenal - 2 out of 35

The player crossing is often unable to make any space (or makes a poor decision), so the ball just pings off the defender two yards in front of him (I'll often get 10+ corners in match due to this) or good crosses are just not finished eg

TYtgU0yl.png

or

iVGWTiWl.png

2) Still too many long shots

With a Counter mentality, I believe the tempo isn't that high and we should be playing a degree of possession football once going forward.  Is that correct?  We're just not patient enough (goes back to the original title of the this thread!)

I'm reluctant to use Work Ball Into Box as my experience isn't good.

Edited by Harpoon76

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If the player on the ball doesn't have quality passing options then he will still take a shot at goal despite the low mentality. I too had the same issue as you with the team taking too many long-shots, but changing to counter didn't help all that much. 

In regard to your poor cross completion ratio, firstly what are the attributes of your wing-backs? They need high levels of crossing obviously but also technique and arguably decisions/anticipation to know when and where to cross. 

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Last match was a 1-1 draw with Everton - 24 cross attempts, 0 completed.

Something I should done since losing my great right WB is to swap the roles, so I've just pushed my left WB to attack, right WB back to defend or support and moved the holding CM to cover the left side of the pitch.

First choice left WB (and Captain this season)

59671d84e1d80_LuisVillanueva_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.efad9d0cb5c6e30496911bee5dada54e.png

Backup left WB

59671d80ef3cc_LloydPaynter_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.200cd0c3eca9379505b53d937cd34d2c.png

Right WBs - not sure I have a first choice as they all seem to lack consistency.

Wonderkid:

59671d7549f08_KevindeGroot_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.53fdc6ebf8a5c88477886d6ff706a8d3.png

Fast but not a great passer

59671d79bc6c9_HectorCaballero_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.58cd0c8392c68cc0090bf65831240bbd.png

Busts a gut for the team but only average

59671d7d5cb30_BobbyClifton_OverviewProfile.thumb.png.5d3a6082ce369a56d536860af6bce33c.png

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Posted (edited)

A new season, so we go again but I'm obviously making the same mistakes which I just can't see.

My tactic has moved on, dropping the 3rd CB in favour of an Anchorman to screen the defence.  I'd been through looking at some of the goals we'd conceded and hoped the anchor would screen the defence better as a triangle, rather than a flat back three - some goals came through a CD stepping up and leaving a gap in the backline which then got exploited.

596e21813bb45_CreweAlexandra_Overview-14.thumb.png.d1a36f446836f8b033b7fb0f927e7617.png

The CM(S) has hold position to try to cover the WB(A) on his side.  I originally had a DLP(S) there but he seemed end up way too close to the Anchor and getting in each others way.

All going so well (the 5-4 win against Man City was epic) and then we hit the slide I suffer from a some point in every season.

596f7eb453f81_CreweAlexandra_SeniorFixtures-10.thumb.png.20360ab15a70ffdf4443a3b985984333.png

Sunderland took the league after a claimed mistake by my RB (though I see no reason why him being out-jumped by a stronger, taller man is a mistake).  From memory they went 4-1-4-1 after 60 minutes and their GK produced numerous top-draw saves.

596e21881cc24_CrewevSunderland_OverviewOverview.thumb.png.69c631b3b3c89e5df351bd47f8bffca4.png

596f7fc77e637_CrewevSunderland_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.25554a23868510b8e7d0bb905b1cc614.png

Ajax sneaked an early lead but then never threatened again.  We found the woodwork twice :(

596f7eae59a31_AjaxvCrewe_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.6b3936c86391d565f0d125f5438a221f.png

Next match we took the lead against Arsenal, then let them back into the match after the entire team switched off after a corner, my captain gave away a soft penalty and the last goal was a shambles between my LB and CD (looks like they fell over each chasing the ball).  Both my (quality) strikers hit the woodwork from inside the 6 yard box.

596f7eb10cf2d_CrewevArsenal_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.13b9192d91fc01f8512936498d3894d6.png

Yours,

Mr Very Confused!

 

 

Crewe Alexandra_  Overview-15.png

Crewe Alexandra_  Stats-2.png

Crewe Alexandra_  Overview-16.png

Crewe v Sunderland_ Analysis Teams.png

Edited by Harpoon76

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This thread seems to have turned into a mix-up of things (each taking significantly time to address). Initially this was about finishing:

- Your side currently needs fewer than 8 shots for a goal. Whilst this randomly fluctuates (in particular with a few fluke resulst skewing numbers), overall there is no sign of wasteful finishing (the contrary)
- The same for on target shots. Almost every third shot on target is a goal.
- The best forward needs slightly less than five shots, no sign of big woes either.
= There is no overall wasteful finishing. There may be in particular matches, against particular opposition (what did Ajax do upon taking that lead? Do you realize that the counter mentality without TI's keeps the pitch fairly narrow, etc.) But there will be always some, and if it's rotten luck.

The other stuff is as follows:

- You feel you should do better overall. Nobody can judge how good your side is in comparison to the opposition. Whilst it is possible to outperform your general AI on this (this takes to be a good FM player however), if you have a save from the start of the season and may check how your assistant would do if you went holiday... or resign and check how an AI predecessor would do. Always a decent gauge of this.

- Some point drops  may be connected to decisions made (some touched upon already, still using that risky overload tactic with 3 forwards btw,), some to man management, etc. However, that is for others to assess, as said, to me, there is no overall finishing woes in general, and you were guilty of overestimating your chances (also covered in the above), which also leads to avoidable frustration.


 

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41 minutes ago, Svenc said:

- Some point drops  may be connected to decisions made (some touched upon already, still using that risky overload tactic with 3 forwards btw,), some to man management, etc. However, that is for others to assess, as said, to me, there is no overall finishing woes in general, and you were guilty of overestimating your chances (also covered in the above), which also leads to avoidable frustration.


 

Risky overload tactic with 3 forwards?  I'd only use that if chasing a game late on - my starting tactic is the 4-1-3-2 posted above, 4-3-3 isn't in any of the screenshots I've posted today.

Played two more matches, beat West Ham in the EFL 2-1 and then faced them away in the league.  Lost 3-1 due to individual errors from both my GK (personally I blame him for two of the goals) and left WB.  The opposition GK again plays a blinder, rating 7.6.

596f9bc046b32_WestHamvCrewe_StatsPlayerRatings.thumb.png.fa5b38357da2893f869190b5d2c6a245.png596f9bc2e8aaa_WestHamvCrewe_AnalysisTeams-4.thumb.png.1d44a6bdac972166c8413ff22c389d5e.png

West Ham v Crewe.pkm

I've spent a good chunk of that match with WBIB enabled to reduce long shots yet we are still shooting from outside the area.

I'm genuinely stumped on what else you do or change.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Harpoon76 said:

Risky overload tactic with 3 forwards?  I'd only use that if chasing a game late on - my starting tactic is the 4-1-3-2 posted above, 4-3-3 isn't in any of the screenshots I've posted today.

Played two more matches, beat West Ham in the EFL 2-1 and then faced them away in the league.  Lost 3-1 due to individual errors from both my GK (personally I blame him for two of the goals) and left WB.  The opposition GK again plays a blinder, rating 7.6.

596f9bc046b32_WestHamvCrewe_StatsPlayerRatings.thumb.png.fa5b38357da2893f869190b5d2c6a245.png596f9bc2e8aaa_WestHamvCrewe_AnalysisTeams-4.thumb.png.1d44a6bdac972166c8413ff22c389d5e.png

West Ham v Crewe.pkm

I've spent a good chunk of that match with WBIB enabled to reduce long shots yet we are still shooting from outside the area.

I'm genuinely stumped on what else you do or change.

 

Re: Long shots, in parts related to switches that aren't covered in the above. Similar to before, there is an uncovered switch made, this time making every midfielder pushing forward at some point. A few long shots always come from free kicks, or in the 2nd stage off a corner cleared, and in football, up to 50% of all shots being from range isn't unusual. [Those benchmarks to target realistically]. However, a few of these also come about as that is every guy sitting atop of each other. Not only can't they lay the ball back to a guy that isn't pressured, whoever is passed to is immediately under pressure, as all push forward. Not sure if you read any of the guides stickied, to me some uncovered switches still look like *possibly* contributions to point drops. Those are fairly basics, it's advisable to start with those. Got into decent shooting positions 3, 4 times from play, whilst that wasn't huge domination, the keeper looks like had to make two three decent saves agreed.


2nhYBX6.jpg

Edited by Svenc

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Interesting, thanks again.

I've put an extra click on Width to Fairly Wide to hopefully stretch play more.  With the transfer window approaching, I'm also looking hard for some better FB/WBs who can hopefully improve the crosses into the box.

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Sven, you mentioned bad luck before...

Beat Chelsea (league leaders) away with two late goals (great - perhaps something to build on), having been under pressure most of the match.

Then away at Everton, we grab an early lead.  My anchor then makes a mistake which leads to us conceding and quickly follows that up with an own goal.  We hit the woodwork twice before making it 2-2, before another own goal (though bizarrely not credited as an OG) to see us lose the match.  I think we've now hit the woodwork twice in 4 or 5 matches this season.

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Really struggling to break teams down if we go behind.  Just lost 1-0 to Spurs who scored from a 30 yard DFK after 22 minutes and then parked the bus with a 4-1-4-1.

Tried slowing things down, playing wider, then faster and more direct but we couldn't seem to create any space for somebody to time to get a good shot in.  Took off my anchor to play an IF(S) along with the two strikers, spent the last 15 minutes or so with one CB to put a Treq into the AMC slot to try to drag the DM away to make space for a CM to exploit.

The WB/FB are obviously the wide outlet but what is so frustrating is they get the ball when open (they are an obvious outlet), take 5 or 6 touches and/or dribble a bit, by which point there is a defender stood in front of them and the cross is blocked.  Even with Hit Early Crosses time and time again they won't cross when open.

59722df2284ac_CrewevTottenham_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.4cc98e092c0dc19f535a6fcca2627875.png

59722df5a5541_CrewevTottenham_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.c8a0f9b5fffef0fe2b555aebc7772b1d.png

59722df9214f5_CrewevTottenham_StatsMatchStats.thumb.png.e1d20d5706511e3d9a7b82f7389e37e0.png

Crewe v Tottenham.pkm

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56 minutes ago, Harpoon76 said:

The WB/FB are obviously the wide outlet but what is so frustrating is they get the ball when open (they are an obvious outlet), take 5 or 6 touches and/or dribble a bit, by which point there is a defender stood in front of them and the cross is blocked.  Even with Hit Early Crosses time and time again they won't cross when open.

Maybe you could give them the PI cross from deep and also tell them to dribble less, could help.

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5 hours ago, jc577 said:

Maybe you could give them the PI cross from deep and also tell them to dribble less, could help.

I second both of these.

Additionally I found "more direct passing" on the FBs helped encourage mine. As did increasing the tempo, but you may want to avoid that as it effects the entire team.

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You haven't got Work Ball Into Box switched on have you?  This reduces crossing tendency, so they're more likely to look for a dribble/passing option.

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