How it seems I got it

[looping]

After a long time struggling, it seemed that I found the light. I'm going to show how I did it because if there a hopeless case it was me. I have to thank everybody who attempted to help me and specially @Svenc who has been extremely patient with me.

 

1. Tactic and players

I like 442 or its variations but I've found certainly difficult to play it, so I concede my formation and one of my strikers is dropped to AM position. Basically, what I want is:

gk. Saves.

fb: Cover their flank and support attacks with occasional overlaps.

cb: defend

cm: destroyer-holder and runner-creator

wm: run, dribble, cross, shot

am: link

st: score

 

Keep it simple, no TI. Just one PI, I told my gk to distribute to fb.

I like hardworking teams so I choose as my DNA the following attributes: work rate, determination and bravery. Anyone with less than 15 in this attributes is out, unless he has other significant attributes: for instance, My new left back Tagliafico has 13 determination, but 18, 17 bravery, determination.

High levels of Aggression, Team work, acceleration and stamina are welcome.

The team selected is Torino just because there I'll have Belotti, a top striker that suits my DNA. I start the sav in April 2017, so I have time and money to buy/sell players that accomplish or not my team DNA.

Finally, we have this:

 

And below the players I mostly use (the rest are Young players). I had to buy a lot of new players so I expected problems initially due to players not knowing each other.

S

 

2.Final goal

My final goal is to win Champions league with players homegrown players. I don't care if I have to wait 20 seasons.

 

3. Team talks

It is widely extended that team talks are not important, but I think they can help. Even if the effect is minimal, most of football matches are won or lost by small margins, so anything that can help is welcome.

I use assertive most of the times.

 

Pre match:

If we are favourites, I expect to win.

If we are not favourites, no pressure,

If we are in a good run, do the same than previous match.

If we lost against the opponent last time we played, remember what happened.

Special matches (against particular opponents like Juve) do it for the fans.

 

Half time

If we are not favourites, and winning/draw, don't get complacent. Losing, I expect better.

If we are favourires and winning, don't get complacent. Losing/draw, I expect better

If we are doing very bad, I use aggressive expect better or if we are doing well, bad luck.

 

Full match

If we didn't meet expectations, unhappy. If we did very bad, aggrssive unhappy, except if it was bad luck.

If we won, well done. If we are in a good run, don't get complacent next match. If we played a couple bad matches before and we win, why don't you play always like this?

If we are in a bad run and we win, I praise them.

 

If we are in bad run, and morale is low, I hold a team meeting. Morale boost.

 

4. Tweaks 

In my previous saves, my problem (or one of my problems) was adapting to the opponent. I will explain how I've adapted in this case:

I start every match with my tactic, play on extended, and wait 15 mins to identify the flow of the game. It can be easily done with extended highlights because show relevant chances/passages of play (more than key) but doesn't overload me with information (full match or comprehensive).

 

- Team playing defensive 

For me, the easiest way to see if an opponent is playing very defensive is watch out fb. If they are staying back and almost not crossing their own half, we have a very defensive team that seems just to park the bus. Probably defensive or even contain, structured shape, trying to keep things tight and hit on the counter.

This is an example of a team playing defensive:

 

What I do in this case, following advice given by  @Dr. Hook is change my mentality to defensive. Then I push my defense one notch higher and play out the defense. The idea is to patiently move the ball and stretch them vertically. Running and crashing against them won't help. If I can't unlock them or I can't win the ball back (possession stats) I push my defense even higher  (to the max) and play offside trap. A last tweak in this direction is playing wider.

However, sometimes this is not enough and I don't have time to be patient so I use this:

 

This is used only under extreme circumstances and can lead both to score and concede goals but the idea is to take as much risk as posible because I desperately need to score. It has saved me some points with late goals.

 

- Team playing attacking 

Matches were the opponent expect to beat you are, in my opinion, the easiest ones (specially if the opposition is not much better than you...). In this case, I usually don't touch anything because results come. 

However, if I need to hold a lead, I use, for a short period of time (max 15 mins) this:

This is used only under extreme circumstances and can lead to be pinned back in my own half but I've found it highly successful against teams that throw everything looking for a goal. Sometimes I even use fb(de) and wm(su) and TI retain possession but it's a very extreme and rare movement.

 

 

- Special case: 41212/4132/4312

If there is a formation that drives me crazy in fm, it is 41212 diamond narrow in midfield. In my humble opinion, which can be certainly mistaken, the ME need an improvement because overloading central áreas (precisely what this formation does) is too effective. Well, in any case, to face this formation what I tend to do is to reduce the space as much as posible in central áreas. I usually go to fluid shape+counter mentality and add the following TI: push higher up, be more disciplined, stick to positions. WIth a higher defensive line and a fluid shape the space between defense and midfield is dramatically reduced and stick to positions creates walls of players in my defensive Golden zone. My cb step up earlier and my cm track back too, so the lines are closer and space can't be exploited (because there is no space)

If I need to score a goal, I sometimes untick be more disciplined so this extra creative freedom can help.

 

 

5. Results

I'm deliberately ignoring my third  and fourth season (you already have some info...). More on this later but just note that screenshots were taken a couple of days ago so things may have changed... or not.

Anyway, first two season were excellent, despite some bad runs that lasted too long:

What I would like to know is if I'm doing things right or wrong, if my results were just luck or if you think the way I play the game is acceptable and what could I do to improve.

 

 

 

[Fosse]

Brilliant stuff! I'm pretty sure I can speak on behalf of the forum that we're glad you've finally cracked it 

[herne79]

I'm honestly pleased to see this.  Your perseverance is a lesson to us all.

24 minutes ago, looping said:

What I would like to know is if I'm doing things right or wrong, if my results were just luck or if you think the way I play the game is acceptable and what could I do to improve.

3+ seasons of results like that is not luck, you're clearly doing things right and you might owe @Svenc a beer or two .

[Barbosa04]

23 minutes ago, looping said:

- Team playing defensive 

For me, the easiest way to see if an opponent is playing very defensive is watch out fb. If they are staying back and almost not crossing their own half, we have a very defensive team that seems just to park the bus. Probably defensive or even contain, structured shape, trying to keep things tight and hit on the counter.

This is an example of a team playing defensive:

 

I'm not sure FBs individual behavior is precisely indicative of opposition's mentality. In the screenshot you provided, you can safely assume that both FBs are on defend duty as they are slightly behind the CDs on an imaginary straight line. Unless CDs are on stopper duty, which would be strange, considering 2 DMCs in front.

I think you can predict opposition's mentality, based on how much pressing they apply. The higher mentality, the more likely players leave their starting position to close down opposition.

[Armistice]

AI Team Mentality usually correlates with their duties, in other words, if they are using a more defensive Mentality, they will use 1-2 attacking duties, if they are attacking, they will use more attacking duties.

 

Team Shape can be spotted in transitions.

[looping]

4 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

AI Team Mentality usually correlates with their duties, in other words, if they are using a more defensive Mentality, they will use 1-2 attacking duties, if they are attacking, they will use more attacking duties.

 

Team Shape can be spotted in transitions.

I hardly ever spot anything in transitions, just let's forget about it, it's a waste of time for me. I can't and that's it.

Correlation between duties and mentality reinforces what I said: if the AI uses defensive mentality, most likely fb will be on defend because it adds more defensive duties and fb are best candidates to do so.

[looping]

5 hours ago, Barbosa04 said:

I'm not sure FBs individual behavior is precisely indicative of opposition's mentality. In the screenshot you provided, you can safely assume that both FBs are on defend duty as they are slightly behind the CDs on an imaginary straight line. Unless CDs are on stopper duty, which would be strange, considering 2 DMCs in front.

I don't understand this. fb individual behavious can be, not the only indicator, but can be one to see how defensive/attacking a team is. Of course we have the widget where we see AI's tactic and is as obvious as when it turns to defensive formation.

[looping]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

I'm honestly pleased to see this.  Your perseverance is a lesson to us all.

3+ seasons of results like that is not luck, you're clearly doing things right and you might owe @Svenc a beer or two .

I'm not completely sure if it is just luck. I don't feel I control the game but anyway seems an step forward at least.

[looping]

6 hours ago, Fosse said:

Brilliant stuff! I'm pretty sure I can speak on behalf of the forum that we're glad you've finally cracked it 

Thanks.

Not sure if everybody thinks so

[sporadicsmiles]

20 hours ago, looping said:

I don't understand this. fb individual behavious can be, not the only indicator, but can be one to see how defensive/attacking a team is. Of course we have the widget where we see AI's tactic and is as obvious as when it turns to defensive formation.

An even better way to spot the AI mentality is to look at what the game calls their formation in the formation widget. Often you will find a "defensive" or "attacking" tag to go alongside the positions. This tells you definitively how the game is labelling their tactics. I guess it is not foolproof, and one should also watch the match, but it gives a great indication.

[looping]

I've had two very good seasons

- Conceding few goals. First season conceded 30 goals and second 32, which means third best defense in the league. In both seasons I had 19 clean sheets which is outstanding.

- There is progress: second season was better than first in terms of goals scored, conceded and total points. We reached cup semifinals and 1/8 CL. 

 

On the other hand, there are some negative things that deserve to be remarked:

- Some accidents on the road. Terrible defeats, conceding great number of goals (Olympique Lyonnais, Tottenham, Chelsea)

- Bad runs that last too long. I've spotted a problem in the game that are losing/winning runs that not only affect me but also the AI.

 

Well, unfortunately, this is not an story of complete success:

On ‎22‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 12:53, looping said:

I'm deliberately ignoring my third  and fourth season (you already have some info...). More on this later but just note that screenshots were taken a couple of days ago so things may have changed... or not.

 

I'm still ignoring my results of my fourth season

 

Everything went down the drain in the third season, as usual, following the same pattern.

- Conceding horrible amount of goals compared to previous 2 seasons

- Scoring more goals.

 

I am at this moment with my new laptop and I don't how to take screenshots so I'll post them when I have some free time (which means loading the game in my old laptop that is still somewhat alive).

First season: third position, 65 points, 49 goals scored, 32 conceded

Second season:   Third position, 75 points, 59 goals scored, 30 goals conceded, 1/8 champions league, cup semifinals

Third season: third position, 66 points, 63 scored, 48, conceded, 1/4 champions league, won the cup.

 

At first glance, third season looks good, but if we go a bit deeper,  we'll easily see this was a major step back and things are turning worse, following the exact same pattern in any of my previous saves (conceding tons of goals).

In my first two seasons (league results) I had 19 clean sheets and conceded around 30. In the third season, not only I conceded 48 (the total goals conceded can be affected by rare matches: if you lose 7-0, for instance),  the problem is that I just had 10 clean sheets.

Yes, I ended third, but because Lazio (4rd) won 1 of the last 10 matches or so. CL was better, that's true, but this is a competition I had no chance to win. And yes I won the cup, but I won two rounds in penalties, so, again I was very lucky.

 

The cause? Well, watching every match as an isolated event, I would say in most of them I was unlucky. Watch, if you are interested, these  matches, they are the typical game my team played in my third season. I attach some matches if you are interested. (Cagliari, Roma, Perugia both, Palermo both, Napoli away).

 I’ve never totally outplayed the opponents (nor in third season nor in second or first) but, overall, I had far more chances than the opponents. I mean, of course you can say “you lost 2-1 because you didn’t create more chances to score 3”, but this is totally missing the point because my problem is that I conceded far more goals, not scoring less.

Football matches are won or lost (most of them) by small margins so isolated events can hugely affect results. I have the feeling in this season all the details went against me. Lots stupid goals, extremely clinical opponents... In many many matches, first shot= goal 1-0 down. Missed chance, missed chance. Long deflected shot and goal 2-0. Bye bye.

 

Because, what am I doing different in this season?

From the tactical side, nothing. I'm doing absolutely the same. So, if it was right in the first two seasons, why is now wrong? Teams were already playing more defensive against me and I could beat them. Actually, I'm scoring more! It's a defensive problem.

Team talks are the same.

Players are basically the same. I sent Acquah to Porto, that's true, but he was not in my preferred eleven in my second season any more (I signed better players Mancuello and Poli) and results were outstanding. To replace Acquah I signed Zakaria who seems better, despite low determination which I was aware but the other attributes were just outstanding and added some aerial forcé to my team (was the worst team in the league in height).

I also signed Pavon who replaced Hernan Perez but be aware that Liverpool payed reléase clause in january 2019, so I didn't have Perez for the last six months of the second season and there was no disaster. Perhaps Pavon is slightly worse in defensive terms, but much better in attack. Last 6 months of second season played Di Gaudio and I didn’t concede this outrageous amount of goals. It can’t be the reason.

So, Tactics are not the cause, team talks are not the cause, players are not the cause. Why my results dropped so much? Why I'm conceding an outrageous amount of goals?

If we agreed that I was playing the game right in the first 2 seasons why everything went down the drain again and following the exact same pattern (conceding outrageous amount of goals)?

In all honesty, I don't know where to look at to detect why I'm losing. It's not tactical, it's not team talks, it's not players, then, what can be? What can I check?

 

Cagliari - Torino.pkm

Nápoles - Torino.pkm

Roma - Torino.pkm

Torino - Perugia.pkm

[Svenc]

You should finally really look up what conceding an "outrageous amount of goals is". Both in context of football, as well as the context of the game (how many AI teams did better?), which perhaps is the more important bit, as the match engine obviously ain't football. Though I've always argued your tactics are never geared towards a particularly cautious / getting defensive records, always of the 4-2-4 variant or thereabouts that still nails it. You then further take a look at how much this is bound to fluctuate by random chance all by itself, as going from 32 to 48 goals can be entirelly to a few freak results. Additionally, you've consistently broken into the top teams of Seria despite their being clubs that start out far better stacked. Not slightly, but by big amounts. You also haven't regressed at all, the point tally is as robust as rock, you've brought a completely also-ran into the elite of European football. So how does this go on the same patterns of  possibly quitting again? Unless you can shake that, still not a chance in hell of ever playing a save. And I don't buy that you were always sacked on any of your constant restarts prior.

In all of this, you're also ignoring the dynamicism not merely inherent to the ME (may be too random, may be not, all viably subjective!), but also as to your opponents. At season 3 it's safe to say that a few of your opponents:

- may overall target a few draws rather than wins against you, as you're now one of the bigger boys in Italy, but certainly not all of them, which is what you've always acknowledged. Whilst defensive AI when it has both backs on defend may sometimes lead to a few unfortunate stuff on FM 2017 imo, all your oponents would face it, plus on FM 2016 this never once was the case
- sacked their managers, replacing them with different ones prefereing different stuff, which you don't,
- replaced a few of their starting players, probably even bringing in a few decent forwards (you never know), which you don't either.
- there may be even be quite a few new opponents altogether, unless there is a bug in your version that won't see teams relegated

This is purely anecdotical, but on Fm 2015ish I've had a freak save where suddenly there was a huge amount of managers who tended to switch mid-match to, 4-3-3 (3 central forwards). So without some adjustments, I was always going to concede more.... if perhaps not immediately loads more goals, for sure a lot more dangerous situations which could lead to goals (which is where the random element steps in), as that 4-3-3 would completely overrun my 2 CBs. With your obsession of conceding, I'd report the set piece stuff you mentioned prior threads -- have you put them on default in the meantime? Not further going into tactics as all's well regardless. But if you think that not stretching the pitch and getting a draw against narrow Cagliari wasn't influenced by tactics, you're wrong. Unless you have improved Torino to the levels expected to beat the likes of Roma and Napoli away, don't argue it can't be related to players. Whilst there may be a point buried in there re: conceding goals (if not always the outrageous amount), mark this final ever advice: Start a new save, and what you're forever going to do is an outrageous amount of looping.

 

[looping]

16 hours ago, Svenc said:

You should finally really look up what conceding an "outrageous amount of goals is". Both in context of football, as well as the context of the game (how many AI teams did better?),

No team in my save is scoring 90 goals so that numbers perhaps are not a reference. It's less complicated: what I want is what I had in my first 2 seasons, not historical defense, not something unrealistic or very difficult. It's simply something I had and I lost.

16 hours ago, Svenc said:

At season 3 it's safe to say that a few of your opponents:

- may overall target a few draws rather than wins against you, as you're now one of the bigger boys in Italy, but certainly not all of them, which is what you've always acknowledged. Whilst defensive AI when it has both backs on defend may sometimes lead to a few unfortunate stuff on FM 2017 imo, all your oponents would face it, plus on FM 2016 this never once was the case
- sacked their managers, replacing them with different ones prefereing different stuff, which you don't,
- replaced a few of their starting players, probably even bringing in a few decent forwards (you never know), which you don't either.
- there may be even be quite a few new opponents altogether, unless there is a bug in your version that won't see teams relegated

Ok. This are potential reasons why I'm conceding more. Let's analyze them:

 -  If I understand correctly, opponents playing more defensive leads to conceding more goals whatever I do?

- There are new managers, that's right, and new teams, but most they do is play 7 defensive duties which was already happening before.

- Teams signed new strikers but WORSE ones. E.g. Inter sold Icardi and signed Andone. Milan sold Bacca and signed  Zaza.

 

The fact is my team is very inconsistent, completely unable to hold a lead or keep a clean sheet, and that's exactly the opposite of what happened in my previous two seasons.

I don't find an explanation for that.

[herne79]

Don't keep us hanging, post your 4th season results and analysis please.

[Svenc]

Not gonna come due to reload. Whenever the goal averages breach x (even if x is still well above average... 25% of matches clean sheeting OUTRAGEOUS), which can happen influenced a bit purely by chance (same as the basically Juventus records before), it all goes a looping. This was all a happening before. For about at least  a year. Which is quite remarkable, considering that there's never been made a specific effort made to clean sheet. Some may take that a tad far, but if you go 1-0 up away. At Napoli. And you still keep on pushing and your fbs keep getting caught out of position with their wingers breaking forward. Same as still pushing four, five, 6 players boxside, with but one central mid really covering. Then than follows no logics whatsoever, unless you'd be hell bend on proving to yourself time and time again, yup, if I keep on doing the same things, surprise surprise, at some point the averages may breach x, e.g. , outrageous amount of goals (compared to what), unplayable, quit. The ME has a lot of flaws....... this is not scripted, though.

[looping]

@Svenc would be normally right, but this time I didn't reload.

Due to the laptop change and all this writting among other stuff, I didn't have time to play, so I'm still on xmas (fourth season).

I hope your opinions do not depend on what happens on fourth season or whatever other and random season,

Tráiler of the movie: things look weird.

[herne79]

I'm not sure what to think at the moment.

@looping, what do you want from this thread?  When I read the OP I thought you were essentially just coming back to tell us about some success you'd finally had, and I (and others) were genuinely pleased for you.

But now it seems you are unhappy with finishing 3rd in Serie A three years running with Torino.!  And this on the back of spending so long barely being able to get through half a season without being sacked.  If this were real life, Torino fans would be hailing you as some sort of god.  I completely fail to see how your 3rd season "went down the drain" when you finished 3rd again for the 3rd season running.  Are you even happy?

And now mid way through the 4th season, things "look weird", whatever that's supposed to mean.

I don't understand.

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

 

 

And now mid way through the 4th season, things "look weird", whatever that's supposed to mean.

All it's ever meant before. It's a loop. I didn't recognize it at first, hence there seemed to be always something missing, but that constant starting with new teams after advice was given.... perfectly clicks. We've been here here before a few times. If you google for "outrageous amount of goals", look what the first hit is. I don't want to take a dig, but it needs to be stamped how out how ridiculous quitting this were, it's time to snap out of this or quit. Not saying that every save was generally successful before the reset, but um...... on occasion I'm sacked too (had a real terrible run with Darmstadt in 2nd Bundesliga a while ago after selling their captain, some crazy stuff). But then without the possibility to ever fail this were a snooze...  most AI mans are sacked either way further down the road multiple times. That's anybodies competition.

The reason looping's never played a save is because he's never played a save. If over x games, or even a season or two, you concede x amount of goals, it doesn't mean you will always do so. Eventually, there will always be a point where that fluctuates. Some of the dynamics may be connected to ME and AI, and if anything the remarkable is sometimes conceding so little considering that the typically looping tactics aren't that defensive nor keeping hugely much players behind the ball. If anything, I'd be rather curious about that rather than at one point the scorelines picking up. Conceding less than a goal p/m with Torino 2nd season? But does that make the game unplayable? Well if you want a fantasy rather than football. The overall amount of goals has been declining throughout the decades in football, with the introduction of the 3 points per win rule the final coffin, this isn't a case of "modern day" or "nowadays" results being like that. There's never been a team that could play for 0s every match. This being FM rather than football, you could sure try to do so if you truly insisted. Always playing 4-2-4ish tactics with the wide mids bombing forward on attack every minute ain't ideal, as not only is that looking to get a few attempts, but also leads to a high turnover of the ball. As simple as that is, shaping results can start right here after taking leads, why not put them on support to retain the ball some if you're after 1-0s.

That said, it'd be interesting (and this will hopefully be introduced in the future) to see how many shots (on target + overall) you concede a match on average, and whether that changes throughout the season. Goals fluctuate, if you conceded more shots, you could better pinpoint if it was all just luck or if you concede more attacks/shots. That's the kind of rankings FM lacks in general.... just points, goal differences, etc. is a bit simplistic. [Indeed, take a look at the 2nd season here. Imagine one or two closely matches going for the opponent (-6 points = 69 points total), and vice versa happening in the third season (+6 points for a 72 pointst total), and the perception of the 3rd season would be completely different. Sure, there's still that issue with those outrageous amounts of goals. :-P Always something to keep in mind.

[looping]

Okay, we are on xmas. Things are not bad but a bit strange.

- We are out of Champions League. We were unlucky and played against 3 (Lyonnais, Dormuntd, Atlético Madrid) good teams but at least managed to end 3 so we are now in Europa League, so no that bad.

- League results are strange. After 17 matches, 8 wins, 5 draw, 4 lost, 24 goals scored 11 conceded, 29 points, 10 clean sheets. There is only 1 problem: Belotti has decided not to score a single goal (after 16 matches he has scored 3 goals). Perhaps the transfer request I rejected (twice) is influencing it.

I'm completely happy with this results because I'm not conceding outrageous amount of goals. At some point Belotti is going to score again (no way he is going to leave).

On the other hand, I fear I will start conceding again at any moment.

 

What I don't understand is why this fluctuations in goals conceded.

In my previous saves, I experienced this fluctuations followed by sacks or really bad results. In my very first saves, I was sacked (perhaps I made it worse with my decisions). Later, I just reloaded/started new save because once it started because I thought I would be sacked. For instance, my somewhat famous save with Milan where in my third season after 10 games I was on relegation zone conceding really outrageous amount of goals, I should have resumed playing instead, because the problem was going to be fixed at any moment, probably with an excellent run that allowed me to end top 5 at least (still a bad season but not a colosal disaster)

That's why I feel I don't have the game under control. Results come and go and I don't control what happens, because I really can't read the ME. And after almost 2 years, I can surely say I'll never read the ME successfully so the way I can play the game is severely limited, and better don't think about it in future versions because the obvious trend is putting more and more pressure in tactical decisions.

On top of this, the formations and overall the kind of football I'd like to develop is punished by the ME (limitations and bias) so I don't expect a brilliant future...

 

Anyway,it's true I can play the game now and I can do it with good results but as long as I don't feel I have the game under control, I'm not completely happy. Now the decisión is: a) play the game this way or b) Try again to learn.

 

[herne79]

"League results are strange" (W8 D5 L4).  As Torino.

"I really can't read the ME" (3rd placed finish in Serie A 3 years running + european football).  As Torino.

On 2017-6-22 at 12:23, herne79 said:

3+ seasons of results like that is not luck, you're clearly doing things right

 

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, looping said:

Anyway,it's true I can play the game now and I can do it with good results but as long as I don't feel I have the game under control, I'm not completely happy. Now the decisión is: a) play the game this way or b) Try again to learn.

 

Remember it's you who made the constant argument that football results come match day were about:

 

1) players

2) luck

3) the weather

4) what the guys had for breakfast

.

.

.

.

99) managers

 

So any run of whatever shouldn't alienate. In fact, unless you would have a league dominating side of players, it should confirm your believes with a vengeance. That aside if you still want to manage match days, don't focus on the micro, focus on the macro. Simple stuff. Deciding whether you want to go for a draw or win. If a goal is scored, deciding whether you want more or not. Keeping additionally players behind the ball, defensive stability. And vice versa. The same (roughly) for any width of the pitch. Quickly giving the ball to the opposition means he can quickly attack again. If the clock is running out, there may be a use for something more urgent. Requires no hugely further watching whatsoever much, but logical use of a few instructions, and maybe a switch in duty or two. And don't obsess about those bloody tackles or any other random fart. Goals will be scored. Goals will be conceded. The guys will play meh once in a while. And outside of extremes (which you've never used despite your completely fantasy fetish of clean sheeting 24/24), the game may tend to produce fooball results... most of the time.

[shirajzl]

8 hours ago, herne79 said:

"League results are strange" (W8 D5 L4).  As Torino.

"I really can't read the ME" (3rd placed finish in Serie A 3 years running + european football).  As Torino.

 

On of looping's problems (and lots of other people's) is that he sees Rashidi pis*ing all over the game with the very same Torino and he thinks "this is what's reading the ME, this is what I want to do".

And then when you don't win the title with Torino in 4 seasons you feel you're not good enough. If Rashidi (like Cleon when used to post) is a benchmark, you're really not good enough.

People want to dominate the game like Cleon or Rashidi do, not hear about unpredictability, dynamism of influencing factors and other stuff we read in Svenc's essays.

[Armistice]

1 hour ago, shirajzl said:

On of looping's problems (and lots of other people's) is that he sees Rashidi pis*ing all over the game with the very same Torino and he thinks "this is what's reading the ME, this is what I want to do".

And then when you don't win the title with Torino in 4 seasons you feel you're not good enough. If Rashidi (like Cleon when used to post) is a benchmark, you're really not good enough.

People want to dominate the game like Cleon or Rashidi do, not hear about unpredictability, dynamism of influencing factors and other stuff we read in Svenc's essays.

This is exactly what I thought, it happened to me aswell until recently (still happens from time to time). I was thinking there's some sort of magic trick these guys (Rashidi, Cleon) do that makes the game seem so easily to play and I had to keep reading guides and articles over and over again to unlock that trick, without realizing I'm over-complicating things instead and thus making the game less enjoyable.

I think most of the guys who post good stuff about tactics lately (O-zil, herne, etc) have been in a similar point where looping was/is, most people struggled. It's a bit harsh to compare yourself to the likes of Rashidi, who has played this game consistently and I think also played a part in creating the TC, but it's ok if you want to keep improving yourself as a player.

 

I think looping saw this game as making a good tactic then put players in, tweak a bit and boom destroy everyone. But you actually need much more than that, a better link-up between tactics, player recruitment and tweaks based on ME events.

[looping]

 

4 hours ago, Svenc said:

Remember it's you who made the constant argument that football results come match day were about:

 

1) players

2) luck

3) the weather

4) what the guys had for breakfast

Yes, I still think so but when I said that I was almost stoned including some individual comparing me to a monkey.

Anyway, Fm is a game that puts a lot of pressure on tactical decisions, at least is the oficial way to play the game. I can agree or disagree but that's what we have.

 

Guys, you don't get the point.

I'm not expecting the magical wizardness of top players (which certainly includes under the Hood knowledge that we/I don't have). That would be unrealistic expectations.

What I want is to see how I'm influencing the results. I can't tell you if I won because I did well or my players won despite my tactics. That's the point.

[Barbosa04]

1 hour ago, looping said:

 

What I want is to see how I'm influencing the results. I can't tell you if I won because I did well or my players won despite my tactics. That's the point.

 

I think the best way to see how you are influencing games, is to watch matches in 2D. It's much easier to spot patterns when you see most of the pitch and observe the player behavior. You don't have to watch the full match, but 15-20 min a game, while you do adjustments and see what it affects. Even single TI's such as "work ball in the box" or "pass into space" can considerably alter the way you attack, thus watching it live how each pans out in a game, you can chose for your taste or particular tactic to stick with it or dismiss. Once you are comfortable against different opposition's formations, you can switch back to 3D to enjoy the game.

Figuring out the tactics is part of package of being a football manager. Try to get enjoyment from it. And it's much more satisfying when fm success comes from your individual decisions.

 

 

[knap]

Looping

Do you have the following tactics in your locker

A SUS tactic

An Away tactic

A Home tactic

A control tactic

A Get a Goal tactic

A change of formation tactic

In the old days there used to be a lot of discussion on how these are set up but these days zippo. I am not sure about minor tweaking when you can have an arsenal.

[Fosse]

3 hours ago, knap said:

Looping

Do you have the following tactics in your locker

A SUS tactic

An Away tactic

A Home tactic

A control tactic

A Get a Goal tactic

A change of formation tactic

In the old days there used to be a lot of discussion on how these are set up but these days zippo. I am not sure about minor tweaking when you can have an arsenal.

You don't need a tactic for ea h of those situations, in fact one tactic (with adaptions) is enough.

[looping]

The point is not what changes I can do (tweaking a core tactic or having an arsenal of tactics). The point is, are my changes (whatever they are) influencing my results?

I don't feel my changes produce anything, so results would be the same if I didn't touch anything. I don't have the game under control, results come and go randomly.

 

[herne79]

You're right.  We have no control in games, results are totally random and any changes we make don't influence results at all.  The consistent results you've had for 3/4 seasons with Torino are nothing more than luck and randomness.

What utter utter nonsense.

Of course your changes are influencing results.  As soon as you make a change during a match the ME recalculates things.

I suggest you re-read what's been said above and start accepting it.

[knap]

You don't need a tactic for ea h of those situations, in fact one tactic (with adaptions) is enough.

Managers do not just have 1 tactic, Many teams  change formations during games. To suggest minor tweaks is some official way to play is a joke. If you have such great tactics make them available so we can all learn.

[Footix]

Use your current players but line them up in a 2-3-5 formation. Select some random TI's, at least six of them. 

Watch a few games. 

What do you think, do your tactics and manager skills play a part, or not? ;-)

Relax, you clearly have understood this. Doing so well with Torino is great, I wish I could do the same! 

[Fosse]

17 minutes ago, knap said:

You don't need a tactic for ea h of those situations, in fact one tactic (with adaptions) is enough.

Managers do not just have 1 tactic, Many teams  change formations during games. To suggest minor tweaks is some official way to play is a joke. If you have such great tactics make them available so we can all learn.

You're right, but on FM you don't need 7 different tactics or whatever, you can change formation in game, that's what I meant having a load of different set ups isn't that beneficial - a counter set up might work for one difficult game but not another.

[looping]

What I'm trying to say is that I don't feel my decisions have any impact in the game. Again, for instance, a match starts and I'm getting battered. I can't get out of my own half. I change to my defensive tactic 4141. Nothing changes. Back to my initial tactic, I go with counter mentality, defensive later. Nothing changes.

Perhaps going more attacking. I go to standard and push my def line a bit higher. Nothing changes. Perhaps shape. I go to fluid. Nothing. To structured, nothing.

Whatever I do I'm battered.

This is just an example and also applies for teams I can't unlock.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't feel I'm changing the flow of the matches. If, for some ME calculation, the AI is outplaying me, I can't turn thigns around. 

All I'm able to do is what I explained in my OP, but if that tweaks don't work I have no idea what to do and the match is just lost.

Actually, I think my team could be doing much better and I'm terribly missmanaging it.

 

[lemeuresnew]

5 minutes ago, looping said:

Whatever I do I'm battered.

next time, maybe consider saving the game and reloading. not to make sure you win, but by playing a game where you know you are going to struggle, you could examine what changes 'change' the flow of a game for you and what doesnt work for your team. for instance, if i already have my midfield set up to fight for the ball and clear long, it would be harder to get more out of them defensively without putting another man in there. no amount of tweaks can make a difference if they are just over run by numbers

by having the same opponent, it is easier to see what works than trying against different players and teams every time

[knap]

I am happy to play with 1 tactic no tweaks in FM.

However, for realism a manager should have alternatives at his/her disposal as well as a plan B. 

The plan B could be a 3 at back tactic, but at least try to change the mix,  rather than hoping a tweak will work.

I would at least consider using 4 tactics Home away SUS, get a goal.

[Cougar2010]

9 minutes ago, knap said:

I would at least consider using 4 tactics Home away SUS, get a goal.

Why do you need a home & away tactic?

[Svenc]

10 hours ago, shirajzl said:

People want to dominate the game like Cleon or Rashidi do, not hear about unpredictability, dynamism of influencing factors and other stuff we read in Svenc's essays.

This is not what looping wants. Looping isn't people. looping is looping. The "essays" can be broken down to this:

- The game's difficulty is determined by the AI mangers you compete against, not anybody else. That's it. This is forever going to be the case. There was a time years ago where I too wished I was as good as playing Warcraft 3 as some of those ridiculous Pros earning money playing it, rather than the pitifully in-game AI you competed against, but I realized I never was gonna be..... still didn't make me stop playing that game for quite a while. In the end, there will be better and worse players. Don't see the issue with that. There's guys here that have a 15+ years head start, whilst others have never even tried to learn how the tactical module works (not only in terms of tactics, also how player attributes link).

Given looping has demonstrated how he would obsess about the most minor things in the match play (no AI does give a hoot about nor "spot"). But also how he has weird expectations quite ofently (every single thread and his constant restarts can be traced back to weird expectations), there may be a limit as he can progress here. However, as his more popular arguments was that the game was "insanely difficult", it needs to be stamped out that despite it all, he's doing great, better than an AI manager would, and that all this talk about how the game were insanely difficult or only catered to tactical niche is, and in fact has been proven wrong by his own before.

[knap]

Away is the term I use for a more difficult games, but still, most Mangers of non top dog teams would be more cautious away, or do you not think this is the case?

 

Judging by the current AM comments, I am not sure how SI are going to make the AM useful.

 

[shirajzl]

19 minutes ago, Svenc said:

This is not what looping wants. Looping isn't people. looping is looping. 

 

He says he doesn't want that and yet he behaves exactly like someone who wants that. Looping is looping indeed.

[looping]

All I'm trying to say is I suspect if, instead of watching matches and tweaking my tactic, I played on commentary mode, without paying attention to anything happening on the pitch, results would be the same.

 

[Cougar2010]

54 minutes ago, knap said:

Away is the term I use for a more difficult games, but still, most Mangers of non top dog teams would be more cautious away, or do you not think this is the case?

Yes, more cautious but not a totally different tactic.

However its a different discussion and I don't want to derail looping's thread.

[looping]

Fans in twitter:

We need a new manager, XXXXX is in danger of taking us backwards

Feels like we're treading wáter with XXXXX

I agree.

 

[Svenc]

49 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

He says he doesn't want that and yet he behaves exactly like someone who wants that. Looping is looping indeed.

And he'll forever be. What he wants is a better feel how and where his choices impact matches/results. Which by the way, is a completely different theme as to all the threads prior (not to lack of successful saves in those though, but because of constant restarts).

Breaking it down to its most simplistic: Results are made of goals. Goals come about by shots. Reducing the quality shots the opponent has decreases the chance of his scoring. Vice versa on his end. I don't plan to invest much more into this, in parts as I feel hugely mislead by his older threads and even some more recent posts (he very recently hijacked threads to rant about how he would lose against teams 2 tiers lower, etc), in parts because contradictions and weird expectations, which the game may never fulfill. Also not sure about that posting/playing "stoned" remark (it may explain quite a few things though). But if he understood the "macro" part of this, he could totally shape results by simple means. Not conceding an opponent comeback for weeks on this save surely wasn't random one tiny bit (and whilst it is obvious in the lack of goals scored 2nd half by my team that I sacrificed mos attacking intend to get there, that's certainly still a case of decisions shaping results very obviously, as it's also over a longer term.). Either way, I'm drained on his. Others were far earlier before. Also don't think there's much to gain here for me. And the goal posts seem to be forever changing. It's not my job of convincing somebody to play some game.

[looping]

19 minutes ago, Svenc said:

 he very recently hijacked threads to rant about how he would lose against teams 2 tiers lower

It's 100% true I lost against teams 2 tiers lower. And consistently. And now I know why.

I start the save, everything is ok. A bad run starts and I don't react. Team talks are all the time Aggressive I expect a win/Disappointed, Morale low. Start chopping tactics.

Comes the game against a team 2 tiers lower. I go with my 442 Control fluid. My players use direct passing and crash against them. And here starts the ME doing its thing.

If you play against a defensive team and you don't have a proper use of the ball, they score, and they score outrageous amount of goals. If they outnumber you in midfield, the match can end with a rugby score. Even if they are 2 tiers lower. Add to that the tactical chopping and low morale. Perfect cocktail.

Now, what I'm doing is going defensive so at least I keep the ball and don't crash against them. Do I unlock them? Not always. I still lose against weaker teams (everybody does).

But I was not lying.

The hole point of this thread is see the progress I've made and how far I am from  the way the game must be officially played (watch matches, adapt...). My tweaks are still limited to a) hold a lead b) go all attacking and c) don't crash against defensive teams. I don't have subtile intermediate points which are exactly how the game must be played in its higher levels.

 

[knap]

1 hour ago, lemeuresnew said:

next time, maybe consider saving the game and reloading. not to make sure you win, but by playing a game where you know you are going to struggle, you could examine what changes 'change' the flow of a game for you and what doesnt work for your team. for instance, if i already have my midfield set up to fight for the ball and clear long, it would be harder to get more out of them defensively without putting another man in there. no amount of tweaks can make a difference if they are just over run by numbers

by having the same opponent, it is easier to see what works than trying against different players and teams every time

Looping try the above but first change manager, new name should reset any problems. Just treat this save as a practice and experiment with set ups.

[herne79]

46 minutes ago, looping said:

The hole point of this thread is see the progress I've made and how far I am from  the way the game must be officially played

The point has been made. 

I'm genuinely pleased (as are others) that you have made progress.  But the last part of that sentence is where you go wrong.  There is no "way" the game must be played.  Different people play it differently - we have great examples of different people doing just that in this thread.

Despite my high hopes with the OP, this thread is now descending into the same old.  There is literally nothing else left to say that hasn't been said many times before, and even your "mentor" has seemingly had enough.  For god's sake man, after months (years even) of failure you have finally found some consistent success because, and only because, of how you have managed things.  Be happy with your success as the rest of us are.

The thread is already on a downward spiral.  The whole point of the thread has been made, so the thread is being locked.