Raumdeuter and teamwork

[mortiscausa]

So every time I try to buid a tactic where Raumdeuter will be my main scorer I end up with him having more assists then goals. I don't complain about that but lately I've been thinking that this happens because of my favourite attribute which is teamwork. So perhaps if I want him to score more then assist then I should pick up player with low teamwork so he will be more selfish ? So could it be that in some cases low teamwork will be ok ? (which would be completly against my squad selection rules)

[thomit]

In my current save, I notice that the "original" roamdaughter, Thomas Müller, also has more assists than goals. I can't be sure that the current Bayern manager is actually using him in that role of course, but it suggests perhaps that this is ...normal? It is after all quite normal for any other role that you could call a wide striker-ish role.

[westy8chimp]

What tactic are you using him in? The role is just a name, with some pre-assigned assumptions and a little under the hood thinking thrown in.

Your tactic will be more important in determining who will score and who will assist.

i.e. if you create an imbalance on one side of the pitch with say, a playmaker and a DLF (perhaps both set to more direct passing and more risky passes) and have a RMD on the other side .. he would be more likely to score goals... than if you had him on one side with an IF on the other and a CF (A) or poacher through the middle.  

[herne79]

One the one hand, lower Teamwork can indeed help players be more selfish.  If I'm using a Poacher for example, I want a player with low teamwork - I pay him to score goals and not much else.  A Raumdeuter is kind of a wide Poacher.

On the other hand, the Raumdeuter (Thomas Muller) has a very high Teamwork attribute, so go figure.  But then he isn't (and never has been) Bayern's main scorer.  There's possibly only one player that comes to mind who has (possibly) been a Raumdeuter and main scorer, and that's CR7 - but these days he's more of a central striker anyway.

And on the third hand (yes I have 3), getting the Raumdeuter to be your primary scorer is going to come down to tactical settings and a player with the right attributes.  He needs to be fed properly (eg., by through balls), he'll need great movement, and the right space created for him.

[mortiscausa]

Currently I don't have access to my save but that's how I set up things now

                                F9

           RMD                              AP(s)

                        CM(S)    CM(A)

 

I tried to use AP(S) in CM(S) position but that didnt do much. I'm already asking CM(s) for more risky passes and direct play. 

I tried structured and very structured shapes (to creat as much space as possible)

Attributes that I consider important : off the ball, anticipation,acceleration and determination.  

 

[ajsr1982]

I'm not sure about this Raumdeuter business. As @herne79 says, I feel he's really just a poacher type centre forward that moves out wide to find space and offer some (meagre) defensive protection - he's half poacher, half wide forward, half free role (if herne can have three hands, I can have three halves). To that end, it's just a centre forward with really good 'Off The Ball' ratings.

However, in FM, that's really, really hard to replicate,, and I think the RMD effectively ends up acting the same as most other (non-playmaker) roles that you can use in the AML/R slots, with a few differences that are so minor that you'll hardly notice them. All players will look to attack space, to varying degrees, and all players that are notionally wide players will have a role as a creator to some extent.

As others have said, someone creating space (maybe a F9), someone feeding him (maybe an AP on the same side and a winger on the opposite side) are going to be key to getting your RMD in the goals. However, my personal view would be it potentially causes imbalances elsewhere and I'd be wary of changing things if it's working okay.

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, mortiscausa said:

Currently I don't have access to my save but that's how I set up things now

                                F9

           RMD                              AP(s)

                        CM(S)    CM(A)

 

I tried to use AP(S) in CM(S) position but that didnt do much. I'm already asking CM(s) for more risky passes and direct play. 

I tried structured and very structured shapes (to creat as much space as possible)

Attributes that I consider important : off the ball, anticipation,acceleration and determination.  

 

To add to this.  Playmakers are coded into the game to act kind of like ball magnets.  Your team will look to play to them and through them when they can.

With the RMD on the other side of the pitch to your playmaker, it's unlikely he'll be getting the service he needs.

[TheJanitor]

6 minutes ago, herne79 said:

With the RMD on the other side of the pitch to your playmaker, it's unlikely he'll be getting the service he needs.

Really? I thought it would be different. With play naturally flowing towards the AP/s, this would in turn create more space for the RMD to exploit.

I think Teamwork is what causing your RMD to score less, how much did he scored for you btw? Who is your main scorer in that set up?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

2 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

Really? I thought it would be different. With play naturally flowing towards the AP/s, this would in turn create more space for the RMD to exploit.

I think Teamwork is what causing your RMD to score less, how much did he scored for you btw? Who is your main scorer in that set up?

My guess would be that having the ball on the opposite flank, the ideal 'service' for the Raumdeuter in this case would be a winger to snap in the cross for him to 'poach' onto at the back post. The AP being out wide will look more for the runs of the CM/A and the F9, or will move into the space vacated by the CM/A in order to spray passes around. I don't doubt he could pull off the odd amazing through ball, but there's probably going to be a lot of bodies in the way, assuming the opposition has a back 4, one or two defensive central midfielders to get through, and whoever is on the wings, it's a tough ask.

 

I'd guess the playmaker would be more ideally suited just around/behind the RMD, with a very aggressive wingback to overload and draw the full back out. That would enable more through balls in that target area, in theory. (But that's just my thinking behind it.)

[westy8chimp]

20 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

Really? I thought it would be different. With play naturally flowing towards the AP/s, this would in turn create more space for the RMD to exploit.

Same, this is what I was getting at. I would intentionally have the AP on the opposite side to attract defenders... and then have direct & risky PIs and preferably PM "switch ball to other flank" and "plays killer balls" ... RMD should be in space for the AP to pick out.

I'd compound it by right adjusting the F9 (or a DLF) into CFRC position to overload the right hand side, creating even more space for the RMD. Maybe a FB/WB on attack behind him hugging the line to draw the opposite wide mid or full back out.

 

                                         DLF

           RMD                              AP(s)

                          CM(S)    BBM(S)

           WB (A)           DM (D) 

                         CB (D)   CB (D) FB (S)

                                

     

                       

[herne79]

@TheJanitor @westy8chimp What I was alluding to has more to do with how the AP is supposed to get the ball to the RMD on the opposite flank, not the space being created. 

An AP is not set up to provide crosses (although he will of course), he's set up to make through balls.  With the RMD on the opposite flank, defenders closing in on him and at least two team mates in the way (the CMa and F9), he's going to have to make some pretty consistently exceptional passes to get the ball over to the RMD to turn the RMD into the OP's wish of being the main scorer.

If using an AP, I'd want him more centrally placed to be better positioned to help out the RMD.

[westy8chimp]

Yes unclear in my above... but I've tried to show that moving him into an AMRC behind a DLF(RC) would be the space creation and overload to that side.

Not necessarily the best use of an RMD... but that's how I feel you create that role/position to be the main goal threat.

I'd say he's more likely to get the assists and act like a normal IF/Winger if there is a centre forward, a right winger and AMC as in a conventional setup.

[ajsr1982]

Yeah, I'd have something like...

F9

RMD                        W

AP    CM

WB                            

The AP should be able to easily feed the WB or the RMD from there. If your RMD is any good, he should be attacking the near post if the ball goes out to the WB.

Completely agree with @herne79 though; if your AP is on the opposite flank, he's more likely to try to feed the CF, the CM on the same side of the pitch, or an overlapping FB.

[TheJanitor]

@herne79 Yes I see what you mean, a case of having your creative players close to your most dangerous attackers. A valid point, but for some systems, I think the other way could be more productive. For example a quick, counter attacking tactic that aim to exploit space behind the defense, and that cross-field pass is the more viable option.

[mortiscausa]

40 minutes ago, ajsr1982 said:

Yeah, I'd have something like...

F9

RMD                        W

AP    CM

WB                            

The AP should be able to easily feed the WB or the RMD from there. If your RMD is any good, he should be attacking the near post if the ball goes out to the WB.

Completely agree with @herne79 though; if your AP is on the opposite flank, he's more likely to try to feed the CF, the CM on the same side of the pitch, or an overlapping FB.

I will try this but I will use just standard CM(s) with direct and risky passes.I just don't like playmakers in central positions. And yes I'm using overlapping FB on that side so the AP has many easier options to choose from...

I was thinking excatly like TheJanitor and westy8

[mortiscausa]

I've already tried asjr1982 set up, RMD ended up with 0 goals 2 assists

[Bjick]

In some Torino shows of @Rashidi he talked about creating overloads on one side of the pitch (right side) with playmakers who can drag players around and out of position and with pass into space the raumdeuter can be released onto goal. Or the ball can be played back into the middle where the CM(s) is in the golden zone to set the Raumdeuter 1-on-1 with the GK.

Or did I misunderstand the principle of play Rashidi was trying to explain?

[ajsr1982]

56 minutes ago, mortiscausa said:

I've already tried asjr1982 set up, RMD ended up with 0 goals 2 assists

All season? 

[ndrscr]

Wait, so high teamwork can be a bad thing? I thought it just meant a player is capable of working for the team if needed, but it's actually more like "tendency to be selfless"?

[Rashidi]

7 hours ago, Bjick said:

In some Torino shows of @Rashidi he talked about creating overloads on one side of the pitch (right side) with playmakers who can drag players around and out of position and with pass into space the raumdeuter can be released onto goal. Or the ball can be played back into the middle where the CM(s) is in the golden zone to set the Raumdeuter 1-on-1 with the GK.

Or did I misunderstand the principle of play Rashidi was trying to explain?

You are absolutely correct. My raumdeuter was the main goal scorer, and for him to be this prolific we needed to give him the space to attack and we would always overload the opposite side from where he operates to create the space.

[mortiscausa]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You are absolutely correct. My raumdeuter was the main goal scorer, and for him to be this prolific we needed to give him the space to attack and we would always overload the opposite side from where he operates to create the space.

I belive I'm overloading the right side. I have CM(A) and overlapping FB(A). I really want to belive that this is the case of attributes :

a) playmaker lacks vision (which is fact) so he's picking FB and CM

b) I need Raumdeuter with low teamwork 

c) both a and b

 

[herne79]

6 hours ago, ndrscr said:

Wait, so high teamwork can be a bad thing? I thought it just meant a player is capable of working for the team if needed, but it's actually more like "tendency to be selfless"?

In certain circumstances, and only for the odd individual player, high teamwork for that specific player may be detrimental to what you are trying to achieve.

A good example would be if you wanted to create a very goal focused goal moocher type of player - someone who basically doesn't do much except get on the end of crosses or through balls to take shots at goal.  The classic "Poacher".  Sometimes you may want a "selfish" player in such a circumstance, a player who's really only looking to score.  Therefore a player with low teamwork may be ideal.

CR7 scored for fun for me as a Poacher, and I even seriously considered buying Balotelli for my West Ham save until I went with Lapadula instead (much cheaper and also scored for fun).

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, mortiscausa said:

I belive I'm overloading the right side. I have CM(A) and overlapping FB(A). I really want to belive that this is the case of attributes :

a) playmaker lacks vision (which is fact) so he's picking FB and CM

b) I need Raumdeuter with low teamwork 

c) both a and b

 

Are you using pass into space, and are you creating space for the RD to attack?

[mortiscausa]

 

                                 F9

           RMD                              AP(s)

                        CM(S)    CM(A)

                                                FB(A)

Sometimes I will use pass into space sometimes not. I'm asking both CMs for more direct and risky passes. Mainly using it with structured and very structured shape.