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Should I just...quit FM?

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1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

You will never have a tight defence with that formation.

Simply put the formation is far too attacking and your defence has next to no protection. 

Probably my frustration starts there, because in the beginning I knew that I could easily play with a simple 442 and be promoted suffering less that i did.

You told " the formation is too attacking" but you refer to the roles I choose o to the formation itself?

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Just now, Daniele77 said:

Probably my frustration starts there, because in the beginning I knew that I could easily play with a simple 442 and be promoted suffering less that i did.

You told " the formation is too attacking" but you refer to the roles I choose o to the formation itself?

The formation, you have four players in advanced positions, only two midfielders and no-one in front of the DCs.

This leaves you open to counter attacks as well as leaving a lot of space for the opposition to exploit.

If you want a tighter defence you need a more compact formation which doesn't leave as much space when you don't have the ball.  Basically think of it like a set of scales the heavier you go on attack the lighter you are in defence.  There is nothing wrong with that but you will always be more likely to win 3-2 than 1-0 with that formation.

 

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4 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

The formation, you have four players in advanced positions, only two midfielders and no-one in front of the DCs.

This leaves you open to counter attacks as well as leaving a lot of space for the opposition to exploit.

If you want a tighter defence you need a more compact formation which doesn't leave as much space when you don't have the ball.  Basically think of it like a set of scales the heavier you go on attack the lighter you are in defence.  There is nothing wrong with that but you will always be more likely to win 3-2 than 1-0 with that formation.

 

Ok, understood! :) 

In fact I scored a lot but also conceded a lot.

Moreover my DC where veeery young!

Schermata 2017-06-25 alle 20.23.59.png

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12 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

Probably my frustration starts there, because in the beginning I knew that I could easily play with a simple 442 and be promoted suffering less that i did.

You told " the formation is too attacking" but you refer to the roles I choose o to the formation itself?

pulling back your wingers to the midfield strata should help, a 4-4-1-1 seems pretty balanced, with a conservative midfield. (Is that a deep lying playmaker and a central midfielder in the middle? My italian knowledge is fairly limited unfortunately :)). Against easier opponents maybe you can go with a more agressive approach, probably a b2b midfielder, but it's up to you, and your style. Also not sure if that is a trequartista at the AMC position, but if he is than don't expect him to do much defensive work, and if you go with a control approach i guess you want to press your opponent higher up the pitch, maybe a shadow striker or attacking midfielder could do the job with more risky passes and roam from position. The rest of it seems well balanced to me. 

Do some experiment with the roles and duties, it's fun. Don't bother about not winning every match, it gets boring after some time :lol:

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2 hours ago, Scrench said:

pulling back your wingers to the midfield strata should help, a 4-4-1-1 seems pretty balanced, with a conservative midfield. (Is that a deep lying playmaker and a central midfielder in the middle? My italian knowledge is fairly limited unfortunately :)). Against easier opponents maybe you can go with a more agressive approach, probably a b2b midfielder, but it's up to you, and your style. Also not sure if that is a trequartista at the AMC position, but if he is than don't expect him to do much defensive work, and if you go with a control approach i guess you want to press your opponent higher up the pitch, maybe a shadow striker or attacking midfielder could do the job with more risky passes and roam from position. The rest of it seems well balanced to me. 

Do some experiment with the roles and duties, it's fun. Don't bother about not winning every match, it gets boring after some time :lol:

Yeah, one of my 2 others slot got something similar (42(MC)211) that I'm workin' on when CPU attacks me.

Sure, once you've got a base it's really funny to do roles experiments, but this year that "base tactic" was a little harder to find :D

 

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2 hours ago, Scrench said:

pulling back your wingers to the midfield strata should help, a 4-4-1-1 seems pretty balanced, with a conservative midfield. (Is that a deep lying playmaker and a central midfielder in the middle? My italian knowledge is fairly limited unfortunately :)). Against easier opponents maybe you can go with a more agressive approach, probably a b2b midfielder, but it's up to you, and your style. Also not sure if that is a trequartista at the AMC position, but if he is than don't expect him to do much defensive work, and if you go with a control approach i guess you want to press your opponent higher up the pitch, maybe a shadow striker or attacking midfielder could do the job with more risky passes and roam from position. The rest of it seems well balanced to me. 

Do some experiment with the roles and duties, it's fun. Don't bother about not winning every match, it gets boring after some time :lol:

Ah...Your italian It's better than You think!

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I agree with the idea of this post. Im playing since 2001. But this is the first that I feel that I can't manage certains results. For example: I win a lot of matches in a row we are like the best team at all times, and then suddenly I can't win no more until I get sacked or the season is done. 

Im not saying that my tactics are awesome and I have to win wwith a perfect season, but also I can not believe that suddenily the results become so bads.

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But now...How can I save my team from relegation after an unsuccessful transfer market, with a very poor technical team ?

Route one pass ? But giving always possession to CPU won't be counter-productive ?

Keeping that shape (4231) with these men was impossible, I switched to a NOR/COUNTER 4411 with direct passes and playing the ball in to the space. Seems to work, I'm 13th at the moment but with these players is it veeery hard!!!

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Schermata 2017-07-01 alle 17.48.07.png

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Ok, I quit after 4 Seasons of Serie A, ain't no fun, got UEFA qualification, but seems to be impossible (or very difficult...) doing better.

In all seasons I over performed but takes vary long time to reach the top. 

Respect for all opinions in this forum, still thinking this is one of the worst chapter ever.

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On 6/17/2017 at 19:21, looping said:

First off, you are not alone. I'm totally inept to play the game. I find it unplayable.

With that said, most of the people are going to answer you have to adapt to the opposition, but the question is, adapt to what and foremost why? The game follows certain logic and you have to understand this logic otherwise you lose. It's up to you to understand the logic.

 

If it was just to choose a tactic and sit down to see you win the game would you be happy then? It would ruin the game for most people then i tell ya. This is not a "fast food game", you actually have to make an effort to win the matches and rightly so.

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49 minutes ago, Fortune66 said:

If it was just to choose a tactic and sit down to see you win the game would you be happy then? It would ruin the game for most people then i tell ya. This is not a "fast food game", you actually have to make an effort to win the matches and rightly so.

Debatable.  I'd imagine it's a vocal minority that would.  There would be a lot of happy people if it went more simpler and you could be more plug-and-play.

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You both seem to be missing the main point. He's overachieving all seasons. However, 4 seasons after promotion despite competing in Europe with little Bari, he still struggles to crack it into the top, with Juventus, Napoli and various side having a legacy behind that, and presumably also still better players. Don't see the issues. If this was easy, despite what's gone before, I'd be hugely concerned. Basically my prior point in this thread about taking "game is too difficult" posts which a huge pint of salt. Oft based on less competitive AI on prior releases... plus just that the player in question isn't actually struggling big-time. He simply demands to do better. It's a big balancing job, but still a vital piece of context ... in particular, considering all the struggles expressed before, and still overachieving consistently every season. From here on it's simply a matter of patience, it's that simple. Any AI manager, which is the competition you face, the truly "level of difficuly" of this game, would far more likely if anything still be either stuck into Serie B, perhaps even relegated to C, or got them promoted to A, only to be relegated thereafter. One of the major gripes behind such threads would be that the game would require you to micro-tweak the hell out of it. Ask Dafuge, It's not. It's just not a game were you can waltz into the very top easily with yet not teams and players that are competitive enough to do so.

Edited by Svenc

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45 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Debatable.  I'd imagine it's a vocal minority that would.  There would be a lot of happy people if it went more simpler and you could be more plug-and-play.

And you forameuss belong to wich group? I dont like things that come too easy for me, i tend to not appreciate it that much then.

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8 minutes ago, Fortune66 said:

And you forameuss belong to wich group? I dont like things that come too easy for me, i tend to not appreciate it that much then.

Why does that matter?  Not that it does, but neither really.  When I play the game, which isn't much anymore, I charge through seasons changing very little, often instant resulting, because I usually either don't have the patience or the time to play in more detail.  

And I probably care as much about how you play as you do about how I play.  I'm only disagreeing with your assertion that this vast majority want this incredibly challenging micro-management simulator.  Plenty will, but more won't.

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Almost anyone, even me, is capable of getting a good run going with nearly every team. When the bad run begins, it's usually due to AI adapting. The Ai tries to win and in future iterations of the game it will work even harder to win.

So, the fact is, the direction the game is going to develop is clear. Why this direction? In my opinión, and I can certainly be mistaken, Because there are a very few but very active players who want. I suspect SI remains reluctant to be too aggressive in this approach but the trend is obvious.

At the end, we'll have a very few people who can enjoy the game. Perhaps another group will learn, and join them, who knows. Not me. And not because I don't want, because I really want to learn and I'd like to enjoy the game, but because I can't.  It's simply too difficult. All my saves in fm16 and fm17 (but one) have gone completely wrong. And I don't want to think what's going to happen when future iterations come...

3 hours ago, Fortune66 said:

If it was just to choose a tactic and sit down to see you win the game would you be happy then?

Yes and no. If the game was just what you say, I'd say ok, that's what we have but I wouldn't complain with a bit more of complexity if I could deal with it.

 

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3 hours ago, forameuss said:

Why does that matter?  Not that it does, but neither really.  When I play the game, which isn't much anymore, I charge through seasons changing very little, often instant resulting, because I usually either don't have the patience or the time to play in more detail.  

And I probably care as much about how you play as you do about how I play.  I'm only disagreeing with your assertion that this vast majority want this incredibly challenging micro-management simulator.  Plenty will, but more won't.

Then i suggest you watch footie on TV forameuss, plenty of action and you´ll have to do nothing but to open up another beer ;)

Cheers

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People who say things like "this has never been a game where you just pick a tactic and win nor it ever should be" are either too young, haven't played old CM/FM iterations or have memory problems.

This entire franchise has become this popular because, not in spite of the fact it was plug and play, easy to pick up, choose a tactic, hit continue and fulfill your wildest football fantasies. The direction SI have, in the mean time, decided to take is their business decision which you can agree with or not, but I guarantee this game wouldn't be iconic as it is if the first iterations were this tactically convoluted, requiring a high degree of knowledge, patience and input. 

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The issue if it is one for you is that SI are proven right. The sales were improving ever since the Amiga days of Champ Man 2, steadily, and that can't be fully attributed to no competition around either. There being no optionis  is a recent thing. By that logic, Fifa Manager would have sold millions, as outside of buying "stronger" players, nothing much mattered, and it was also more accessible, sported exclusive licenses SI never had, and went a far more mainstream route in general (by the point SI opted to go 1st generation 2D from purely text, those games were sporting 6th generation Fifa graphics and brand recognition). A good question may be, if you were 10 years old again, would you find it as easy to get into it as you used to during Amiga days? Probably not! But it's not the main target probably. In some ways it is curious this is always directed straight at tactics, despite older releases being more convoluted. On older releases you could make sides under perform plus play terrible fooball without much further ado. Whilst I'm not a fan of a few options, and things could be some clearer, the only thing missing nowadays is deep red blinking exclamation marks stopping you outright from doing something stupid in comparison. Getting sides to consistently underperform (in relation to their actual player ability!) for purely tactical reasons is a challenge from my point of view. It's oft forgotten that there's more than tactics to this, and it's supposed to be that way.

However, AI managers have also become at least a tad more robust (given that it's AI it will never compete with the more creative players). Assistant managers are the key on these areas to me, however same as FM Touch, even if they consistently performed miracles, people wouldn't take it, as they deemed such help beyond their superior class and a cop-out even with little interest for match management (the irony with Touch naturally being that isn't easier a game as such at all). :D That said, there's no place for getting personal in this (that go watch football and better drink a beer snide remarks in this thread, as "fun" is viably subjective). I personally switched over from Fifa Manager to this precisely because of the added influence / realism. That's what FM was being advertised for, being the no.1 authentic management game. It all being relative. I wouldn't stand a chance in football. Here I can't merely compete with the "greats" but take the hopeless into the Champions League and don't need any badges to boot. However the way the AI is coded, the details, make it feel more authentic/rewarding than Fifa Manager, PES Management, and all the other canceled games. For something silly, I'd personally hop onto older games these days. For a silly fantasy there's also still plenty of options, starting right with the editor being free for all.

Edited by Svenc

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FIFA Manager is always brought up but it has never been a real competitor because it was objectively a bad game, while CM/FM, for all their flaws, have been good and kept getting better. That whole "lack of competition" thing has been done to death so I don't want to go there again.

I know a lot of older (30+) people, veterans of the series who have abandoned the game entirely because what it's become or they buy it every year out of habit, clock in 30 hours over the year instead of the usual 300 or even 3000. Again, nothing to do with less time on their hands but with their disillusionment with the game. They are, as consumers, replaced by younger people who don't know how the game used to be, so instead of moaning like this old git, they swarm the forums like fm-base searching for downloadable tactics so they can do what we used to do on CM 2 or whatever. 

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10 hours ago, shirajzl said:

People who say things like "this has never been a game where you just pick a tactic and win nor it ever should be" are either too young, haven't played old CM/FM iterations or have memory problems.

This entire franchise has become this popular because, not in spite of the fact it was plug and play, easy to pick up, choose a tactic, hit continue and fulfill your wildest football fantasies. The direction SI have, in the mean time, decided to take is their business decision which you can agree with or not, but I guarantee this game wouldn't be iconic as it is if the first iterations were this tactically convoluted, requiring a high degree of knowledge, patience and input. 

If you think the current tactical set-up of the game is convoluted or requires any sort of staggering knowledge I'm kind of amazed. These veterans you talked about would need to spend far less than 3000 hours to get a decent impression of things. Apparently they only spend that time if they're cruising, which is a scary notion to me. Catering to such people would be a regression in more ways than one. What happened to FM Lite, by the way?

As for some of the other posts, I agree with Svenc. If you have an inferior team you shouldn't be expecting to topple Juventus and Napoli. You should try to overperform and build over time. I not only think that's more rewarding but also increases the longevity of the game and makes it more engaging. You have more to work for rather than just dominate with whatever trash team you chose in a short period of time. Ironically in this version in comparison to 2014 I think the game has become more difficult because the "management AI" or the illusion of it of the teams has been improved (i.e. off the field, smarter transfers, smarter valuations of players, smarter pursuit of younger players, even the players themselves are "smarter" in what they look for [as well as their agents] and what they put up with, not to mention I think how their values change and are determined has been changed [flipping players doesn't seem as easy, it seems like there's more of an emphasis on using them rather than just stockpiling them although you can still pull of some nice gains for little]), not that tactics have been made more complex. These longer term saves also test the depth of the game more and I think this is where it starts falling short on the tactical side. Clearly not everyone's cup of tea and perhaps different modes should be offered for different people but I bristle at the notion that this game is awfully sophisticated and even as complex as it is it's too much. Patience is the only quality that you're correct on. You might have to put in a little bit of thought and more importantly watch more of full match than you might like. Reverting the game to a simple past makes too little sense to me. They could do a mode for that, not restrict the whole game.

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1 hour ago, serif said:

If you think the current tactical set-up of the game is convoluted or requires any sort of staggering knowledge I'm kind of amazed.

Yes, creating a balanced tactic takes literally 3 minutes within the TC.  However, any sort of deeper understanding of what exactly you're doing, how to adapt and respond to what the AI and ME throw at you, that's an entirely different matter. The lack of in game documentation is also one of those "done to death" topics.

Performing on par relative to the strength of your team and media expectations is more or less easy, but I'm also "kind of amazed" when people take a mid table team, finish 6th-12th place 8 seasons in a row and say they're having  fun. 

It's mind boggling to me, this is a video game after all.

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21 hours ago, Fortune66 said:

If it was just to choose a tactic and sit down to see you win the game would you be happy then? It would ruin the game for most people then i tell ya. This is not a "fast food game", you actually have to make an effort to win the matches and rightly so.

The old days that these series were named Championship Manager, was like that a "fast food game", and that didn't stop from the games being in the top of the chart, release after release. To be honest those games had a lot buzz going for them at the time, meaning it wasn't a niche market game. Everyone was playing the games.

Today, that buzz doesn't exists anymore, perhaps the series is no longer a novelty thing or whatever reasons maybe. But the main reason why a lot of people don't play it anymore is because life got in their way. One friend says the game is no longer rewarding (there is no that instant reward feel that all games bring to the player/gamers), there is too much to do, too much effort to succeed in the game.

To be fair the game became bigger and complexed, some people don't like that. They prefer the old plug and play of the game (that is why mobile games and release of old consoles in miniature) are coming back, because it was easy to understand and was easy to pick for short period of time and played.

I know there is FM Touch, but it is still too much tagged as a lite version of FM. But one thing I blame SI is the non effort to make that tag disappear.

11 hours ago, Svenc said:

The issue if it is one for you is that SI are proven right. The sales were improving ever since the Amiga days of Champ Man 2, steadily, and that can't be fully attributed to no competition around either. There being no optionis  is a recent thing. By that logic, Fifa Manager would have sold millions, as outside of buying "stronger" players, nothing much mattered, and it was also more accessible, sported exclusive licenses SI never had, and went a far more mainstream route in general (by the point SI opted to go 1st generation 2D from purely text, those games were sporting 6th generation Fifa graphics and brand recognition). A good question may be, if you were 10 years old again, would you find it as easy to get into it as you used to during Amiga days? Probably not! But it's not the main target probably. In some ways it is curious this is always directed straight at tactics, despite older releases being more convoluted. On older releases you could make sides under perform plus play terrible fooball without much further ado. Whilst I'm not a fan of a few options, and things could be some clearer, the only thing missing nowadays is deep red blinking exclamation marks stopping you outright from doing something stupid in comparison. Getting sides to consistently underperform (in relation to their actual player ability!) for purely tactical reasons is a challenge from my point of view. It's oft forgotten that there's more than tactics to this, and it's supposed to be that way.

However, AI managers have also become at least a tad more robust (given that it's AI it will never compete with the more creative players). Assistant managers are the key on these areas to me, however same as FM Touch, even if they consistently performed miracles, people wouldn't take it, as they deemed such help beyond their superior class and a cop-out even with little interest for match management (the irony with Touch naturally being that isn't easier a game as such at all). :D That said, there's no place for getting personal in this (that go watch football and better drink a beer snide remarks in this thread, as "fun" is viably subjective). I personally switched over from Fifa Manager to this precisely because of the added influence / realism. That's what FM was being advertised for, being the no.1 authentic management game. It all being relative. I wouldn't stand a chance in football. Here I can't merely compete with the "greats" but take the hopeless into the Champions League and don't need any badges to boot. However the way the AI is coded, the details, make it feel more authentic/rewarding than Fifa Manager, PES Management, and all the other canceled games. For something silly, I'd personally hop onto older games these days. For a silly fantasy there's also still plenty of options, starting right with the editor being free for all.

To be fair Fifa Manager tried to be too much in small package. The games were beyond confusing. I tried two different versions and didn't know where to go and do what I wanted to do.

FM has grown in complexity, but at least there is some thought where are the menus placed and those things. However, these latest FMs are a bit closer to Fifa then the past games. Meaning the complexity for me is growing issue. I feel some features were added just because. I feel they add nothing to the game, aside that feel more like managing a football club. Sure FM is Simulation and should mimic what is like managing a football club, but we cannot forget that in the end this is a computer game. We play in our spare time, like hobby. It needs to have the fun part. I feel FM is starting to suffer the same issues as Fifa Manager, meaning the complexity of the game is becoming an issue, at least for me. Meaning that is too much hassle, too much work to have that feel of instant reward that a Computer game normally has. That is why old FMs have instil so many memories in a lot of users. Sure this maybe because of certain type of an old saved games.

I for one, see in my group of friends and co-workers, I'm the only one who still (used, haven't touched the game since April, instead spent more time in editor then the actual game)... or used to play FM. I'm actually the only one who bought FM17. Sure maybe my group of friends is not actually picture of other group of friends throughout the world. Maybe there are groups of friends that everyone is playing FM17 and is enjoying the game. But I can only report what I see and the opinions of my friends. To be fair my friends said the golden years of CM/FM are long gone, due to this endless necessity of complexity. Maybe what my friends want is back to plug and play games which may not be realistic as possible in managing football club, but a game that is an actual fun to play.

I always say that FM shouldn't be what football is currently about, but what football should be about. No matter how unrealistic it is. Maybe we should stop be so critical about how things are unrealistic and try to let what the kid inside us wants, wonder of unimaginable, the wonder that anything was possible and a game that 5 year old boy can also play, like i did when i was kid.  A game that offers all of that. Even if it means becoming again plug and play tactics or what not. There are other ways to make the game challenging. FM07 for me is the pinnacle of the entire series, because it was plug and play, it was fun to play (my kid version inside me starts to scream in pure happiness as I remember the game), and also it was challenging. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it was hell of game (played for almost 4 years). Should I believe Fm18 or any future version return to FM07? Well the kid inside me would say yes. The adult in me says throwing that all hard work out the window, says no. But to be fair the kid in me would almost certain kick my adult version as*.

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I have the same experience as grade. None of me friends, acquaintances or coworkers play the game anymore and they all single out the same reason; it requires too much effort to win.

It's not about time, they can find the time to play other games even though we all have jobs and families. It's about the lack of feeling of reward. It doesn't have to be instant, either (we're not teenagers, after all) but it sure doesn't come soon enough right now in the game. 

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5 hours ago, serif said:

If you think the current tactical set-up of the game is convoluted or requires any sort of staggering knowledge I'm kind of amazed. These veterans you talked about would need to spend far less than 3000 hours to get a decent impression of things. Apparently they only spend that time if they're cruising, which is a scary notion to me. Catering to such people would be a regression in more ways than one. What happened to FM Lite, by the way?

As for some of the other posts, I agree with Svenc. If you have an inferior team you shouldn't be expecting to topple Juventus and Napoli. You should try to overperform and build over time. I not only think that's more rewarding but also increases the longevity of the game and makes it more engaging.



It doesn't take long to improve sides. You also don't even need a deep understanding to over perform. You don't even need to be masterstroke. It's just that in particular the further you go back, the less competitive AI managers were (and they were oft doing stupid mistakes). Additionally, the more you could break the core of the game, the match days eventually making the results up to the point that you could go onto wild runs with any poor side not doing anything (still possible to large extents, I've tried -- the defending in the engine has holes the AI if at all can only plug slightly by chance, you literally don't need to do a thing and still go places even without transfers or making subs). What's fun is fun! I'm an "inclusive" guy rather than an "exclusive" one. As such, the more people have fun, the better. As SI refuse to include officially "fantasy" or "Hardcore modes", I don't see how the game as such would specifically cater to any "extremes", which includes the  tactical sub community writing fantastic stuff completely beyond the scope of any AI as well. And the aforementioned one wasn't much intentionally to begin with. No Fifa Manager nor its "predecessor" On the Ball allowed you to do that, same as many more "oldschool" games with typically simpler match days. Due to a lack of football match proper simulated "kick by kick", there was a severe restriction in any text sim ever, as they couldn't be "exploited" like that.

The tactical parts needs loads of improvements, not least because regardless if you win or lose -- a link between cause and effect is vital , also in terms of style of football targeted. I've personally been advocating for tactics assistants that would optionally take over the specifics, with the broader decisions up to players (basically an expanded match plan from Touch), howevercan't see anybody switching if they'd be used to instant gratification or having little interest to begin with. Time will tell how this will develop. As far as personal anecdote is concerned, I'm from Germany. This game hasn't been officially sold here in a decade. Everybody who's ever switched to this typically does it because it is a slightly more in-depth experience, rather than just fielding a couple players and hitting kick-off. As such, players demand more rather than less. This includes transfer AI naturally, a beast worth an entire thread of its own. That's Germany though, where "FIfa Manager" et all wasn't seen as a poor game at all, it received heaps of praise and sold up to several hundreds of thousands copies per iteration. I'm curious how this will turn out when the game is officially sold here by apparently FM 2019ish again due to the recent licenses aquired -- and how players may adapt. These debates are as old as FM, by the way. :D

Edited by Svenc

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3 hours ago, Svenc said:



It doesn't take long to improve sides. You also don't even need a deep understanding to over perform. You don't even need to be masterstroke.

I totally agree. I started the game in the swedish premier league with a "bottom feeder" club and i was pretty fast sacked, sold two of the clubs best players and just couldnt make the club stay out of the relegation spots. So over to Denmark then for a manager role in HB Köge in the first danish division(below premier division). Did well but eventually got fired for low team morale, go figure. Oh well, i after awhile was hired by Landskrona Bois wich at the time was in the middle of division 1 (2 leagues below premier league) signed a couple of good players and with an overall good team i was able to secure advancement through a second place in the league and winning the relegation, promotion match, whatever it´s called. Two seasons later i was able to gain a promotion from Superettan (1 league below premier). Now im in my third season and in the middle of it, im at fourth position of premier league with prior positions of an eight place and fourth. It has been some struggling and a lot of scouting to find good players and i´ve done well so far. And i would say the success have been to secure good players to the team before anything else. Keeping the team happy with a decent match streak. It´s not that hard FM2017, not as hard as people make it out to be at least i think. I just believe that there´s a lot of players wich seeks immidiate rewards with very little or no input into the game. For me the game is a 4 out of 5 score.

Edited by Fortune66

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I actually think you might be confusing effort and complexity with a simpler inability to win. I use the full match viewing quite a lot and experiment a fair bit too. You folks don't strike me as people who do that. I've seen what the depth of this game is. I think you're assuming that you're not performing as well as you'd like because you haven't grasped the complexity of the game but in my opinion there is a lot to be said about there not being too much you can do to consistently perform at a very high level relatively speaking. Teams do also make some adjustments and that can be obnoxious. I've found it difficult to constantly win games against opponents who bunker down. It's almost as if I need to step back from attacking and play control to draw them out. Even getting more dangerous players hasn't been very successful. While the game may not be nearly as complex as you think, and the opposite in my opinion, if all you do is watch extended highlights then that could be an issue.

Cheap reward is not something you build a franchise around in my opinion. It sounds like some of you want a really casual game and that shouldn't be done exclusively. I'm in support of a mode for this, not it taking over the game.

I also don't understand those of you who spend so much time reading about tactics. Don't understand the people writing a lot about them either. Trust me, give full match a shot. Use the match speed slider. This game is far from rocket science. I get the impression some of you jump to reading stuff rather than playing the game. It really isn't that impressive or imposing.

2 hours ago, Fortune66 said:

 I just believe that there´s a lot of players wich seeks immidiate rewards with very little or no input into the game.

Sounds kind of right to me. But I'm reluctant to give it a 4 out of 5 because engagement is limited due to a lack of options. Am continuing to play it though for the time being. It's funny how quitting coincides with losing but that's misleading. I quit FM 14, and deleted the saves from my computer and the cloud to ensure I wouldn't come back to it, because I got tired of my right ACM taking stupid-ass shots all the time and I couldn't do anything about it or the general play of my formation. No trait, opposite instruction, lame match engine. I was watching games back then too and knew what to expect in general. It got boring. Took out Chelsea and Fiorentina in two-leg playoffs as a Bulgarian team, then lost to Club Brugge or whatever. Having built a good team was nice (doing this in my 6th season I think with a young core of players) but the game was lame. Matches, tactical build-up, got lame. FM 17 seems better but the lack of options limits it in my eyes and the ME does need to continue to be improved in general to be more dynamic and varied like real football.

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On 18/06/2017 at 01:46, Tony Wright 747 said:

You can't have a one tactic fits all any more, you have to micro- manage your tactics and react to changes within the game

I do. I use 4231 for quite some time, have never changed even slightly and I've still been very successful.

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32 minutes ago, BestManagerEver said:

I do. I use 4231 for quite some time, have never changed even slightly and I've still been very successful.

How long is quite some time, it could well be that at some point you will be found out and your fortunes could change, however it also depends on who you are managing and what players you have, a team of world class players should always be more succesful than a team of donkeys no matter what tactics you employ.                  

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16 hours ago, serif said:

I actually think you might be confusing effort and complexity with a simpler inability to win. I use the full match viewing quite a lot and experiment a fair bit too. You folks don't strike me as people who do that. I've seen what the depth of this game is. I think you're assuming that you're not performing as well as you'd like because you haven't grasped the complexity of the game but in my opinion there is a lot to be said about there not being too much you can do to consistently perform at a very high level relatively speaking. Teams do also make some adjustments and that can be obnoxious. I've found it difficult to constantly win games against opponents who bunker down. It's almost as if I need to step back from attacking and play control to draw them out. Even getting more dangerous players hasn't been very successful. While the game may not be nearly as complex as you think, and the opposite in my opinion, if all you do is watch extended highlights then that could be an issue.

Cheap reward is not something you build a franchise around in my opinion. It sounds like some of you want a really casual game and that shouldn't be done exclusively. I'm in support of a mode for this, not it taking over the game.

I also don't understand those of you who spend so much time reading about tactics. Don't understand the people writing a lot about them either. Trust me, give full match a shot. Use the match speed slider. This game is far from rocket science. I get the impression some of you jump to reading stuff rather than playing the game. It really isn't that impressive or imposing.

Sounds kind of right to me. But I'm reluctant to give it a 4 out of 5 because engagement is limited due to a lack of options. Am continuing to play it though for the time being. It's funny how quitting coincides with losing but that's misleading. I quit FM 14, and deleted the saves from my computer and the cloud to ensure I wouldn't come back to it, because I got tired of my right ACM taking stupid-ass shots all the time and I couldn't do anything about it or the general play of my formation. No trait, opposite instruction, lame match engine. I was watching games back then too and knew what to expect in general. It got boring. Took out Chelsea and Fiorentina in two-leg playoffs as a Bulgarian team, then lost to Club Brugge or whatever. Having built a good team was nice (doing this in my 6th season I think with a young core of players) but the game was lame. Matches, tactical build-up, got lame. FM 17 seems better but the lack of options limits it in my eyes and the ME does need to continue to be improved in general to be more dynamic and varied like real football.

It is not the issue inability to win. Every time and everyone that complains about the game, comes in some one concluding, is because those people that complain don't win matches. Can we please stop with that sh*t? I beg you, for the sake of sanity and this discussion, winning and loosing is not the issue for those that complain about the game. And it is not confusing with effort with complexity. The issue is complexity. FM15 was the last game anyone of my friends I know the try the game in the series. And after a season he gave up. He had the effort, since he finished the season, since he was a fan of the series. The issue for him, was a season was too long, because he had a lot to do in game. He wanted just to play of building his team, take them to glory and play the matches and move forward with the season. He finally said, the game has become a job. For that, he would take an actual coaching course and do it for real. He just want a game that is gratifying and fun, not a day job.

I don't deny this sort of game needs to have its own complexity. Well the old games of these series had complexity to them, but it was balanced out with fun. Then came FM09 and things have gone this way since.

And to be fair, FM18 maybe, just maybe be the last game I will ever tried. The complexity of this game, is killing any joy i have for this game. At this point i play only for nostalgia, for loyalty I have for this series. Again as I said . This game should be about what football really means, not what it is. I would rather have... what do you call it... fantasy?... Fantasy it is, that show what football really represents to us fans, not the decrepit football we currently have, we agents and that sort of stuff. But that is me. I'm at the point that, maybe nostalgia is speaking, but if SI added to Steam all of FM series, I would rather quickly buy again FM05, FM06, FM07 or FM08, then all the bell and whistles that these latest games have been added. it all concludes and culminates in one single phrase: FM is no longer a fun and rewarding game!

22 hours ago, Svenc said:



It doesn't take long to improve sides. You also don't even need a deep understanding to over perform. You don't even need to be masterstroke. It's just that in particular the further you go back, the less competitive AI managers were (and they were oft doing stupid mistakes). Additionally, the more you could break the core of the game, the match days eventually making the results up to the point that you could go onto wild runs with any poor side not doing anything (still possible to large extents, I've tried -- the defending in the engine has holes the AI if at all can only plug slightly by chance, you literally don't need to do a thing and still go places even without transfers or making subs). What's fun is fun! I'm an "inclusive" guy rather than an "exclusive" one. As such, the more people have fun, the better. As SI refuse to include officially "fantasy" or "Hardcore modes", I don't see how the game as such would specifically cater to any "extremes", which includes the  tactical sub community writing fantastic stuff completely beyond the scope of any AI as well. And the aforementioned one wasn't much intentionally to begin with. No Fifa Manager nor its "predecessor" On the Ball allowed you to do that, same as many more "oldschool" games with typically simpler match days. Due to a lack of football match proper simulated "kick by kick", there was a severe restriction in any text sim ever, as they couldn't be "exploited" like that.

The tactical parts needs loads of improvements, not least because regardless if you win or lose -- a link between cause and effect is vital , also in terms of style of football targeted. I've personally been advocating for tactics assistants that would optionally take over the specifics, with the broader decisions up to players (basically an expanded match plan from Touch), howevercan't see anybody switching if they'd be used to instant gratification or having little interest to begin with. Time will tell how this will develop. As far as personal anecdote is concerned, I'm from Germany. This game hasn't been officially sold here in a decade. Everybody who's ever switched to this typically does it because it is a slightly more in-depth experience, rather than just fielding a couple players and hitting kick-off. As such, players demand more rather than less. This includes transfer AI naturally, a beast worth an entire thread of its own. That's Germany though, where "FIfa Manager" et all wasn't seen as a poor game at all, it received heaps of praise and sold up to several hundreds of thousands copies per iteration. I'm curious how this will turn out when the game is officially sold here by apparently FM 2019ish again due to the recent licenses aquired -- and how players may adapt. These debates are as old as FM, by the way. :D

Ironanicly, these road we are currently heading with FM, all started with FM09. It was at that point, that the fun i add with these games, started to diminish. Which is a shame, as I want to continue play the game.

I'm also in the field, that a game that requires to read any guide for tactics or to play the game, if far to complex for my tastes.

Thanks for sharing the link to that thread.

Edited by grade

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Then let me put it quite simply. This game is not too complex at all. And clearly different people have different conceptions of what football really means and/or what it should mean in a video game. To me it doesn't and shouldn't mean sitting back on my ass passively watching something after doing little to begin with. My fantasy is more than that. The only thing that's decadent is wanting things the easy way, not willing to deal with agents and that sort of stuff (it's more so the players and their situations). The reality, by the way, is that the game still favors the player unrealistically, as I have dealt with "agents" quite favorably.

I don't generally read guides and would despise reading tactics. The only thing I would read is basic information that SI fails to provide, describing things (what coaching attributes apply to different training areas, what some of the player preferred traits or whatever mean, etc. not to mention how much significant basic information like what affects newgens is randomly tossed on the forum by people who work on the game no less). Didn't even bother looking for insightful information and have learned lessons through experience. Don't try to claim you and your friends put in effort. I don't put in much effort but because I think while I play I'm still able to do well and learn. I'm all for a casual mode to give you the fun you're looking for, but the current game isn't what you claim it is.

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8 hours ago, grade said:

It is not the issue inability to win. Every time and everyone that complains about the game, comes in some one concluding, is because those people that complain don't win matches. Can we please stop with that sh*t? I beg you, for the sake of sanity and this discussion, winning and loosing is not the issue for those that complain about the game. And it is not confusing with effort with complexity. The issue is complexity. FM15 was the last game anyone of my friends I know the try the game in the series. And after a season he gave up. He had the effort, since he finished the season, since he was a fan of the series. The issue for him, was a season was too long, because he had a lot to do in game. He wanted just to play of building his team, take them to glory and play the matches and move forward with the season. He finally said, the game has become a job. For that, he would take an actual coaching course and do it for real. He just want a game that is gratifying and fun, not a day job.

I don't deny this sort of game needs to have its own complexity. Well the old games of these series had complexity to them, but it was balanced out with fun. Then came FM09 and things have gone this way since.

And to be fair, FM18 maybe, just maybe be the last game I will ever tried. The complexity of this game, is killing any joy i have for this game. At this point i play only for nostalgia, for loyalty I have for this series. Again as I said . This game should be about what football really means, not what it is. I would rather have... what do you call it... fantasy?... Fantasy it is, that show what football really represents to us fans, not the decrepit football we currently have, we agents and that sort of stuff. But that is me. I'm at the point that, maybe nostalgia is speaking, but if SI added to Steam all of FM series, I would rather quickly buy again FM05, FM06, FM07 or FM08, then all the bell and whistles that these latest games have been added. it all concludes and culminates in one single phrase: FM is no longer a fun and rewarding game!

Ironanicly, these road we are currently heading with FM, all started with FM09. It was at that point, that the fun i add with these games, started to diminish. Which is a shame, as I want to continue play the game.

I'm also in the field, that a game that requires to read any guide for tactics or to play the game, if far to complex for my tastes.

Thanks for sharing the link to that thread.

Total club manager was fun, Ultimate Soccer Manager was fun, Treble Manager on the Spectrum was fun, FM like life has moved on. As I have said many times on these forums if the game is too complex for you there are many more simple football manager games out there.  If you are looking for a fantasy football game try Lords of Football.  I appreciate that everyone has an opinion but what I don't understand is why play a game if you are not enjoying it, go and play one that you will.  All the older FM's that you mentioned are probably available second hand on ebay.

 

 

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The guy's point is he'll eventually stop playing the game like others. That's what forums are for.

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1 hour ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

what I don't understand is why play a game if you are not enjoying it

Attachment. This is the game I've played for the last 15 years and I want to keep playing it. 

Seriously, the game is insanely difficult nowadays, I find it almost unplayable. I totally agree with @grade

9 hours ago, grade said:

don't deny this sort of game needs to have its own complexity. Well the old games of these series had complexity to them, but it was balanced out with fun

 

9 hours ago, grade said:

Can we please stop with that sh*t? I beg you, for the sake of sanity and this discussion, winning and loosing is not the issue for those that complain about the game. And it is not confusing with effort with complexity. The issue is complexity. FM15 was the last game anyone of my friends I know the try the game in the series. And after a season he gave up. He had the effort, since he finished the season, since he was a fan of the series. The issue for him, was a season was too long, because he had a lot to do in game. He wanted just to play of building his team, take them to glory and play the matches and move forward with the season. He finally said, the game has become a job. For that, he would take an actual coaching course and do it for real. He just want a game that is gratifying and fun, not a day job.

 I'm from Spain and inthe 90's we had a rudimentary versión of FM called PcFutbol (if anybody is from Spain knows what I'm talking about). Well, that game was too simple and the tactical side was... nothing. I mean, you could use any tactic, even stupid ones (442 midfield Laudrup, Mijatovic, Savicevic and Totti) and you would win because you had better players. 

All my Friends played this game for years until, eventually, the series disappeared for legal reason IIRC (I can be mistaken). We spent a lot of hours playing it. 

Later all of us moved to CM/FM. We used to arrange meetings at home to play it. We NEVER played any other game but FM. While it's true they all of us have grown and some have our own families, we still have meetings to play videogames (PES, FIFA) but NEVER NEVER NEVER play FM anymore since fm 13. And I say NEVER. We all know FIFA and PES are a different thing, it's not management, it's an Arcade game, so the approach is completely different.

All of them gave up playing FM because they were not having fun. Too difficult, not rewarding... I'm the last man stading and I can't give you a reason why I'm still playing because all my saves go wrong. And it's not that I don't put effort... I bet I'm top 3 of people who more effort have put to understand this game and probably the one that most help has received in this fórums history.

Nobody wants to go back to PCFutbol, we like some complexity or, at least, some logic in the game (use a holding midfielder, not 1 gk and 10 strikers). Sure you get what I mean. But all this (insanely) difficulty is too much. Perhaps I'm stupid (which is certainly posible) but all of my Friends are stupid? Well, it's still posible but among us there are lawyers, economist, engineers, mathematicians...  I mean, no one of us enjoys it? Sure it's only us who is doing something wrong?

The game is completely deralining from its initial purpose and is leaving behind a lot of people. I'm not sure how aware of this SI is.  The levels of difficulty are insane.

The game is creating an elite of players who can play it succesffully and others that a) can't play it b) download tactics c) cheat (if downloading tactics it's not cheating). There are more loopings in the world tan Rashidis and if they are not posting here is because they are not playing the game.

With that said, I'll load my last save and see if I'm sacked again.

 

 

Edited by looping

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The game really isn't difficult. You don't need to be rashidi to succeed either. Lots of people, in fact the vast majority of people playing FM will never read these forums. 

As for your case looping, you've had 2 years of threads and dozens of users help you and you didn't really listen to any of them each time. I don't think the game is at fault for that. It's also a tad insulting to all those people who put a tremendous amount of time and effort into helping you (perhaps more help than any other user has had on this forum) for you to then declare the game has lost its way when you didn't take on any of their advice 

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The game really isn't difficult. You don't need to be rashidi to succeed either. Lots of people, in fact the vast majority of people playing FM will never read these forums. 

As for your case looping, you've had 2 years of threads and dozens of users help you and you didn't really listen to any of them each time. I don't think the game is at fault for that. It's also a tad insulting to all those people who put a tremendous amount of time and effort into helping you (perhaps more help than any other user has had on this forum) for you to then declare the game has lost its way when you didn't take on any of their advice 

I don't want to derail the thread but even mods acknowledged I was not dissmissing advice.  You have no idea because you never tried to help me. 

1 hour ago, serif said:

What team do you play and what difficulties are you having?

Again, don't want to derail the thread, so, if you agree, I'll contact you via PM.

 

 

 

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It doesn't help when certain gameplay elements need fixing. I have an idea regarding tactics, but the players refuse to even try to comply with the instructions. And the Target Man role needs polishing.

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There is always room for improvements of that there is no doubt. I am still playing FM16 because FM17 did not improve enough for me to want to buy it.  I don't know if I will buy FM18, I will play the demo and see what I think of it, but I don't agree that the game has become too complex.  I am no tactical genius, but I have never asked for help with tactics on thse forums, I have never downloaded any tactics and have only visited the tactics forums a few times.  I have never cheated by playing a game I have lost again etc and I have never tried to exploit the ME. I just play the game as though I am managing a real team.  Maybe it's about expectation, I don't expect to take a team from non league to the champions league, I know some people play the game with that expectation, and thats fine, you can play the game however you like.  For me the challenge is to do better with my team than thay are doing in real life, I beleive that's being realistic.  As i've mentioned in other threads I do put the hours in and do study the game, on this basis I don't believe the game has become too difficult, If I felt that I would play a different game, there are Football management games out there that are a lot more simple than FM and there are games that are a little more simple, but I return to my point of why play a game that is causing you stress, why torture yourself, life's too short

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38 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

It doesn't help when certain gameplay elements need fixing. I have an idea regarding tactics, but the players refuse to even try to comply with the instructions. And the Target Man role needs polishing.

There is always room for improvement. But the game isn't particularly difficult. Certainly doesn't have this "insanely high" difficulty 

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1 minute ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

There is always room for improvements of that there is no doubt. I am still playing FM16 because FM17 did not improve enough for me to want to buy it.  I don't know if I will buy FM18, I will play the demo and see what I think of it, but I don't agree that the game has become too complex.  I am no tactical genius, but I have never asked for help with tactics on thse forums, I have never downloaded any tactics and have only visited the tactics forums a few times.  I have never cheated by playing a game I have lost again etc and I have never tried to exploit the ME. I just play the game as though I am managing a real team.  Maybe it's about expectation, I don't expect to take a team from non league to the champions league, I know some people play the game with that expectation, and thats fine, you can play the game however you like.  For me the challenge is to do better with my team than thay are doing in real life, I beleive that's being realistic.  As i've mentioned in other threads I do put the hours in and do study the game, on this basis I don't believe the game has become too difficult, If I felt that I would play a different game, there are Football management games out there that are a lot more simple than FM and there are games that are a little more simple, but I return to my point of why play a game that is causing you stress, why torture yourself, life's too short

You can always improve it with better documentation etc. But the game isn't that tough, and the AI isn't that strong. It will always try and be toward the simulation end of the spectrum, but it'll never be truly all the way. 

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

You can always improve it with better documentation etc. But the game isn't that tough, and the AI isn't that strong. It will always try and be toward the simulation end of the spectrum, but it'll never be truly all the way. 

I thought that was what I was saying

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The evolving nature of the game means some people will leave it behind, or perhaps be left behind, and others will take it up. Its difficult for it to be all things to all people. 

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6 hours ago, serif said:

Then let me put it quite simply. This game is not too complex at all. And clearly different people have different conceptions of what football really means and/or what it should mean in a video game. To me it doesn't and shouldn't mean sitting back on my ass passively watching something after doing little to begin with. My fantasy is more than that. The only thing that's decadent is wanting things the easy way, not willing to deal with agents and that sort of stuff (it's more so the players and their situations). The reality, by the way, is that the game still favors the player unrealistically, as I have dealt with "agents" quite favorably.

I don't generally read guides and would despise reading tactics. The only thing I would read is basic information that SI fails to provide, describing things (what coaching attributes apply to different training areas, what some of the player preferred traits or whatever mean, etc. not to mention how much significant basic information like what affects newgens is randomly tossed on the forum by people who work on the game no less). Didn't even bother looking for insightful information and have learned lessons through experience. Don't try to claim you and your friends put in effort. I don't put in much effort but because I think while I play I'm still able to do well and learn. I'm all for a casual mode to give you the fun you're looking for, but the current game isn't what you claim it is.

I do well and learn everyday with FM and other games. It was due to Sensible Soccer that my interest in football began. But here is the rub, you say that the game isn't what I claim it is. Well I disagree with you. The game is what I claim to be. Now we have what is called a stand off. My opinion is not the law, but neither is yours. What to do now? Agree to disagree?

6 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Total club manager was fun, Ultimate Soccer Manager was fun, Treble Manager on the Spectrum was fun, FM like life has moved on. As I have said many times on these forums if the game is too complex for you there are many more simple football manager games out there.  If you are looking for a fantasy football game try Lords of Football.  I appreciate that everyone has an opinion but what I don't understand is why play a game if you are not enjoying it, go and play one that you will.  All the older FM's that you mentioned are probably available second hand on ebay.

 

 

I started to play the game series since CM 2, which was released on the PC 1995, but only played at friends house on the amiga that was released 97, i think. I'm saying this because it is been 20 years (OH GOD... I now feel old), since i started to play this game series. It is more of addictiveness, then anything else. I make up excuses to buy the new version in hope that I would really like the new game. I really, really try to make the effort, but in the end the fun isn't there.

Also good luck try to install FM05, FM06 and FM07 on Windows 10 and Mac Sierra.

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The game really isn't difficult. You don't need to be rashidi to succeed either. Lots of people, in fact the vast majority of people playing FM will never read these forums. 

As for your case looping, you've had 2 years of threads and dozens of users help you and you didn't really listen to any of them each time. I don't think the game is at fault for that. It's also a tad insulting to all those people who put a tremendous amount of time and effort into helping you (perhaps more help than any other user has had on this forum) for you to then declare the game has lost its way when you didn't take on any of their advice 

The issue, again is not about succeeding in the game. It is about the game feel more like a day job, the a video game that you play on your spare time. but if you are enjoying the game then i happy for you.

2 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

There is always room for improvements of that there is no doubt. I am still playing FM16 because FM17 did not improve enough for me to want to buy it.  I don't know if I will buy FM18, I will play the demo and see what I think of it, but I don't agree that the game has become too complex.  I am no tactical genius, but I have never asked for help with tactics on thse forums, I have never downloaded any tactics and have only visited the tactics forums a few times.  I have never cheated by playing a game I have lost again etc and I have never tried to exploit the ME. I just play the game as though I am managing a real team.  Maybe it's about expectation, I don't expect to take a team from non league to the champions league, I know some people play the game with that expectation, and thats fine, you can play the game however you like.  For me the challenge is to do better with my team than thay are doing in real life, I beleive that's being realistic.  As i've mentioned in other threads I do put the hours in and do study the game, on this basis I don't believe the game has become too difficult, If I felt that I would play a different game, there are Football management games out there that are a lot more simple than FM and there are games that are a little more simple, but I return to my point of why play a game that is causing you stress, why torture yourself, life's too short

Again, you are focusing my opinion relays that me and my friends, don't win games, thus don't succeed, thus this game is too complex, thus we hate this game as is. No, i'm sorry, but that is not what i'm saying. Maybe I wasn't being clear enough. FM has grown to feel like a job. The grow complexity of this game, has become, too much to do with little reward. Sorry I don't see why all this effort I make during the season, with these 1001 new features and what not. At the end of a season, the reward is not there. At the end of the season I question where was the reward of all this effort and all of this hassle, that the game has put me in front of me. It is like these barriers that game puts in front of you and when you finish a season, the reward is not even a pat on the back and say (well done). It doesn't help starting a new season you go again back to square one and this time, you know the rewarding at the end of the season will be the same. You loose interest in press continue, you stop having fun with the game and start to feel like routine of day job. And I know my issue is not the rewarding part, because is the same level of rewarding as the old games. My issue is the growing complexity during the season, that each version of the game has added.

Again, I don't say my views is the law. I'm not Judge Dredd. If you enjoy the game Great, i'm happy for you, and you are free do disagree with me. If you agree with me well I'm happy to say i'm not alone in this. I simply share my opinion, that I'm not having fun with the game. I do feel disappointment (sad sounded way to Trump), that to some, my opinion is sort of an insult to them and the beloved game series.

Edited by grade

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What part of the game become like a job? Tedious, sure. Preseason, resting players, different squads, etc. But where's the complexity that makes the game feel like a job without reward? If you're not performing well it's a drag, but that's more a matter of not performing well. Each season is definitely not like the last when you're building a team and/or things are competitive. In fact, if things are competitive and you can continue to improve your squad the game has longevity. But competition and squad improvement are different topics. You seem to believe the game's complexity is boring and not dealing with it leads to poor performance, but I don't see where you find all this complexity. Again, don't assume that just because you're not doing well that means the game is too complex. Maybe you're screwing up in simpler ways or your performance expectations are too high. When you look at the actual game where do you find this overwhelming complexity?

I agree on one tangential thing. The game does a pretty poor job of wrapping things up. Presentation. You get barely anything said to you even if you win competitions. That feels underwhelming, although significance needs to be backing up presentation as well. There might be room there though tying into job security, player sentiment, club stature, and whatever else. It's definitely an overlooked part.

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As I said @grade the evolving nature of the game means some people will fall away. And some people will fall in. It doesn't mean SI have to change the direction they want to go in. It cannot be all things to all people. 

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Also, FM Touch guys. Don't forget it's there and it solves a lot of the issues mentioned here.

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isn't winning games, cups, leagues, getting promoted the only fun real life managers have? personally I enjoy managing games which meens watching the games in full. football manager should be about managing games, preparing your team for the next one. all of you who want plug and play tactics or one fits all or skipping your matches on key and such are missing the point of this game (and also the only thing which is 'fun') and that is a match itself.

and yes FM Touch is great  

Edited by Mitja

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