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Bunkerossian

Should I just...quit FM?

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It's funny really when people complain about the game in certain circumstances.

For example when I see someone claim they absolutely hate the game on steam yet they've clocked up over 1000 hours lol.

Obviously everyone is different, but I wish I had the thread starters problem. I find football manager get's to a point in each save where it's just too easy. I prefer games where they are extremely difficult, I find I get much more satisfaction when I do eventually "beat it".

My way around it is to make the game more difficult by imposing artificial restrictions on myself.

My only advice to you would be to perhaps control take control of a very good team so you can get used to the tactical side, and experiment with the impact any tactical changes make during a match. I have more time on my hands than most so I've gone to the lengths of watching a full match and focusing on one player and seeing how each role and then player instructions (one at a time) actually effect what he does in the match. I want to see for myself what difference I see when I set him to a roaming playmaker instead of an advanced playmaker for example.

From my own personal experience in FM 2017 more than any other, it requires being able to adapt to changes during a match more than ever. Now obviously I'm aware that it is possible to stick with a tactic and win a league etc, but in general being able to adapt to what the a.i is doing will yield the best results.

There are many tools to use to try and decipher what needs to be changed. For example you could watch the match to see how narrow a team is playing without the ball, or use the "average positions without the ball" analysis. In those circumstances I would tend to then play wider with the ball to stretch the play and draw the players out to open space., I'd also encourage my team to exploit the flanks too, perhaps I'd also change a player role, instead of having two inside forwards further congesting the centre of the pitch, I'd change the roles (or one of them) to winger who I set to stay wide. 

Another scenario might be deciding who to deal with individually, i.e who to close down and mark etc. One way is to watch the match to see who is "pulling the strings", another way would be to use the analysis tools to see which player is making the most key passes, has received the ball the most, and obviously made the most passes. You can then decide to man mark him, tackle hard and just delete him from the game (think along the lines of Herrera against Hazard in recent times).

Or perhaps your crossing isn't working, again watch the match and find out why, it could be that your players are floating crosses, and your lone striker is barely winning headers (this stat can be seen in the analysis tool). So in that case I'd be choosing low crosses for example.

That's the thing I enjoy about this game, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that is half the fun. I appreciate that not everyone enjoys that side of it, and some would just like to find a tactic, stick to it and just make substitutions.

Ultimately if you've been persistent with the game for several hundred hours and still can't find enjoyment it might be time to have a break...

Edited by OCD

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Ok stop.

Everybody's repeating the same thing..."You have to adapt...You have to do this...Microchange..."...Yeah, sounds funny, if this is true for CPU too! You press aggressively for about 3 matches, your team can do and you get 3 wins in a row, CPU react and Ferarpisalò on Novara became suddenly capable to dribble like Barcelona and Real Madrid players.

"you have to look at your players, their abilities, and use them". Wow, funny. Great dribblers and explosive speed  so I can go with my wingers...It's only Italian serie B, they're the best in the league, so I'll have a flawless victory with ATTACK ON THE FLANKS, RUN AT DEFENCE...And I'm playing at Catanzaro, their fullback are slow, they won't stop me. Catanzaro - Bari 2-0

Funny. Realistic.

So, "microchange wizards" tell us, when should we change? How? And, moreover...WHY if mine is the best team in the league????

Isn't better to admit that...Well "Honestly isn't the best FM ever"?

Byyyyyyeeeeeeeeee

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2 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

No player is ever perfect for a role.

You do the best you can with what you have available, thats what a manager does.

In the short term do you have a player who can play that role better?

In the long term you may want to sign a player who is more suited to that role and can do what you want.

TBH though it sounds like you are stuck in a loop and have no intention of changing so if thats the case the rest of us are just wasting our time posting :(

Excellent advice as usual Cougar, but I feel it will fall on deaf ears

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10 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

Ok stop.

Everybody's repeating the same thing..."You have to adapt...You have to do this...Microchange..."...Yeah, sounds funny, if this is true for CPU too! You press aggressively for about 3 matches, your team can do and you get 3 wins in a row, CPU react and Ferarpisalò on Novara became suddenly capable to dribble like Barcelona and Real Madrid players.

"you have to look at your players, their abilities, and use them". Wow, funny. Great dribblers and explosive speed  so I can go with my wingers...It's only Italian serie B, they're the best in the league, so I'll have a flawless victory with ATTACK ON THE FLANKS, RUN AT DEFENCE...And I'm playing at Catanzaro, their fullback are slow, they won't stop me. Catanzaro - Bari 2-0

Funny. Realistic.

So, "microchange wizards" tell us, when should we change? How? And, moreover...WHY if mine is the best team in the league????

Isn't better to admit that...Well "Honestly isn't the best FM ever"?

Byyyyyyeeeeeeeeee

 

So if you don't believe making tactical changes is the solution, what do you believe? That it's completely random? If you watch the match you'll be able to see what is happening.

In your example where you have quick wingers against slower fullbacks then of course in theory you could exploit the flanks and take advantage of that, but what actually happened in that match? Perhaps it's because you failed to then adapt to the changes the A.I made that made you lose the match. 

I don't disagree with the notion that sometimes the A.I seems to turn "invincible" when they change to an attacking formation and suddenly their attack players turn into Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar.

But ultimately I find that you can limit the effect the A.I has using the tools at your disposal. I also find it's worth watching Comprehensive highlights, as watching key highlights often ends up being too late to get a bigger picture as to what is actually happening on the pitch.

I certainly don't believe the conspiracy theory that the game is rigged and there is nothing you can do to change the outcome of a match. 

Edited by OCD

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4 minutes ago, OCD said:

 

So if you don't believe making tactical changes is the solution, what do you believe? That it's completely random? If you watch the match you'll be able to see what is happening.

In your example where you have quick wingers against slower fullbacks then of course in theory you could exploit the flanks and take advantage of that, but what actually happened in that match? Perhaps it's because you failed to then adapt to the changes the A.I made that made you lose the match. 

I don't disagree with the notion that sometimes the A.I seems to turn "invincible" when they change to an attacking formation and suddenly their attack players turn into Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar.

But ultimately I find that you can limit the effect the A.I has using the tools at your disposal. I also find it's worth watching Comprehensive highlights, as watching key highlights often ends up being too late to get a bigger picture as to what is actually happening on the pitch.

I would agree with this, I beleive comprehensive is the absolute minimum if you want to get a clear picture of how a match is panning out.

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It's too unbalanced.

"in that match" Catanzaro's fullbacks turned into Maldini and Dani Alves!!! How many times this happen vs the CPU? 

It's too easy for CPU to react to us, we can't react as the game does with us! I wanna play 4231, were's the fun if the game forced me to turn to a deeper 42211? And ok, I could accept it but in 3/4 games in a season not in every single game! I should destroy Akragas not sweat and defending against a late goal! Come on! 

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5 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I would agree with this, I beleive comprehensive is the absolute minimum if you want to get a clear picture of how a match is panning out.

Absolutely. In key highlights I find it tends to just show clear cut chances and goals obviously. So you don't really get an idea of what is happening before it get's to that point.

In comprehensive you get a better idea of what is happening in build up play.

I've also noticed that what highlights show is not random, for example if a player keeps having long shots that are off target the highlights will tend to show that, you are then given an opportunity to try and deal with it by way of player instruction if it's just one player, or team instruction if it's a few of them.

For people that don't want to sit through the highlights there are a number of other ways to find out information, stats show shots off target, where passes are being intercepted, who has the lowest pass completion ratio,  where players are crossing the ball etc the list goes on. You can use all of this information to try and improve things. For example it could be making a player pass shorter, limit the number of risky passes so they don't keep mis-passing the ball

Edited by OCD

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4 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I would agree with this, I beleive comprehensive is the absolute minimum if you want to get a clear picture of how a match is panning out.

This is crazy!!! I like to start with a team in the lowerest league, buying yong people and let them grow up with the club. Can you imagine how many years of play I've to spend to achieve something looking every single game in extended mode? To learn "when to microchange"? Coooooome on!!!

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8 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

This is crazy!!! I like to start with a team in the lowerest league, buying yong people and let them grow up with the club. Can you imagine how many years of play I've to spend to achieve something looking every single game in extended mode? To learn "when to microchange"? Coooooome on!!!

So you're not actually making "micro changes", which is fair enough. You'd rather not do it, and feel you shouldn't have to watch comprehensive highlights to analyse what needs changing. That's fine.

However if you've not tried to play the game in that way, it might not be fair to dismiss it, and say that it doesn't work.

In previous football manager games you could pick a tactic and generally not have to change anything at all, then it got to a point where you only had to change your tactic when other teams changed their general approach to you, but in this version there's much more focus on having to make changes during the match.

I wouldn't agree that having to do that isn't realistic. If anything, what is realistic is having to adapt to what happens in a match, and what team you play against.  Very few managers make zero changes throughout a match.

 

Edited by OCD

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Oh, I tried to do that, but You're forced to make excellents changes and MAYBE you'll collect a draw. Do the wrong thing and CPU will punish You in 5 minutes... 

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2 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

 

Oh, I tried to do that, but You're forced to make excellents changes and MAYBE you'll collect a draw. Do the wrong thing and CPU will punish You in 5 minutes... 

Yeah I'd agree with the point of making the wrong changes. But that's part of the fun for me personally. Trying to learn from my mistakes.

Also it comes down to watching longer highlights too. If for example you make the wrong changes in comprehensive highlights you can spot the mistakes you've made and still have enough time to rectify it. In key highlights you might lose 20 minutes of game time before you're then shown the a.i scoring again but by that point it's too late.

Edited by OCD

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7 minutes ago, OCD said:

Yeah I'd agree with the point of making the wrong changes. But that's part of the fun for me personally. Trying to learn from my mistakes.

 

No, I can use comprehensive highlights when I'm building the tactics, but the game can't overpunish me just because I can't spot every single microchange that CPU does during the game because is it too unbalanced! CPU with the rights move can score 3/4 goals! You can't! Or better, You can but You've are FORCED to change something even vs a relegation battler that you're beating 2-0 after 10 minutes.

Not funny, not realistic, frustrating.

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Never seen poor sides playing like Barcelona. What the AI may do is pushing players forward for added passing options where previously there were none, but that's about it. If you can't spot such, you should have trouble to comprehend football, as the mobility/movement on an actual football pitch is a bit more fluid than in this. That you absolutely needed to micro-tweak every single match is a big misconception. There is saves where I barely do hugely a thing outside of probably switching a duty, and most matches against worse opposition are settled by having the better players, those are pretty much on autopilot, and Dafuge's has had its say already as well. No need to have every single match on full or anything thus too, in particular if you have the hang of things (things really haven't hugely changed in this regard). If you regularly lose against far worse opposition, there is something totally off with your basic setup, probably compounded by your overall (man) management, factual. Far better players can make even up for crap tactics to take points to a degree. Your assistant wouldn't do this if he took over.

Whilst tactics have an influence, and real bad approaches will make sides underperform across he board,  there's a few other things as well. There is something to be gained here, same as there's something to be gained in mastering the transfer markets (there's player who spend hours/days on scouting talent alone), and man management (keeping your squad motivated, focused and supporting/understanding one another). However, performing at AI manager levels doesn't take a huge diploma, confident that quite a few are at least on par without realizing (save, resign and holiday and see how AI do with your sides). The more elaborate stuff talked about in the tactics sub forum is beyond it for the most part from my watching. If this would go my way, despite not micromanaging overly much in most matches, I'd prefer them to be more adaptive (not limited to on pitch actions), as I prefer the game to remain interesting for a further few years, which is one of the reasons why I try to combat such myths, but that's me. :) What it comes down to in the end, if you can't perform as such it's not the game. There's others who do plenty, even those who keep it simple. It may be the aforementioned lacking feedback though, and that's what I've been supportive of too.


 

Edited by Svenc

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24 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

No, I can use comprehensive highlights when I'm building the tactics, but the game can't overpunish me just because I can't spot every single microchange that CPU does during the game because is it too unbalanced! CPU with the rights move can score 3/4 goals! You can't! Or better, You can but You've are FORCED to change something even vs a relegation battler that you're beating 2-0 after 10 minutes.

Not funny, not realistic, frustrating.

With the direction the game is going in the player is required to watch the matches in evermore detail.  Lots of players love that this is the case.  If you are not i think you have to ask yourself if this is the game for you anymore.  There are lots of football management games out there that are less demanding

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50 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

With the direction the game is going in the player is required to watch the matches in evermore detail.  Lots of players love that this is the case.  If you are not i think you have to ask yourself if this is the game for you anymore.  There are lots of football management games out there that are less demanding

Well, maybe it's not. This cutted me out. Can't stay on my chair and see 2 games in 3 hours. If REALLY fm became this, I'm forced to quit.

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On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 17:19, dafuge said:

I don't really agree with this, I've played with the same tactics for years now without changing them!

I also believe Dafuge uses commentary so no micro managing, and it is a 442 wide diamond. 

Dafuge career in FM 17

Career Overview:

Season       League                Position     Achievements
--------------------------------------------------------------------
2016/17      EFL League Two        3rd          Promoted
2017/18      EFL League One        2nd          Promoted
2018/19      EFL Championship      6th          Playoff semi finalists
2019/20      EFL Championship      7th          
2020/21      EFL Championship      5th          Playoff winners
2021/22      Premier League        14th         
2022/23      Premier League        12th         FA Cup winners
2023/24      Premier League        12th         Europa League winners
2024/25      Premier League        11th         
2025/26      Premier League        1st          FA Cup winners
2026/27      Premier League        4th          
2027/28      Premier League        3rd          Champions League finalists
2028/29      Premier League        4th          League Cup and FA Cup winners
2029/30      Premier League        3rd          League Cup and FA Cup winners
2030/31      Premier League        4th          FA Cup winners
2031/32      Premier League        1st          League Cup and Champions League winners, FA Cup finalists
2032/33      Premier League        1st          CWC, FA Cup and Champions League winners

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20 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

Well, maybe it's not. This cutted me out. Can't stay on my chair and see 2 games in 3 hours. If REALLY fm became this, I'm forced to quit.

I watch every match on comprehensive highlights and tend to average four matches an hour.

Each to their own but I struggle to understand someone who plays a football management game then cuts out the main part of it.

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11 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

I watch every match on comprehensive highlights and tend to average four matches an hour.

 

Ok, maybe my english it's a little bit rusty. Define "comprehensive highlight".

I use detailed/extended and not "key moments", but on the forums someone suggested that the only way to spot CPU moves was "Full match" mode. Can't do that.

I'm not blaming the game because I'm not winning, I'm simply trying to say that is it one of unbalanced chapter ever. 

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21 minutes ago, knap said:

I also believe Dafuge uses commentary so no micro managing, and it is a 442 wide diamond. 

 

WOW, I wonder how can He spots issues...

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4 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

Ok, maybe my english it's a little bit rusty. Define "comprehensive highlight".

I use detailed/extended and not "key moments", but on the forums someone suggested that the only way to spot CPU moves was "Full match" mode. Can't do that.

I'm not blaming the game because I'm not winning, I'm simply trying to say that is it one of unbalanced chapter ever. 

There are four highlight settings:

Key - Extended - Comprehensive - Full Match

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26 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

There are four highlight settings:

Key - Extended - Comprehensive - Full Match

I tend to go comperhansive all the time and still fails.

I used to go even full match mode (with slider on much faster (match speed during highlight around 2-3, from the middle, very watchable - so it was like a 20 minutes +- per match), and what turned me off from full matches was the same issues the game have, is bad crossing and attacks being reproduced.

but that's not the case here, the case is even with full match today after i improve and understand the feature much better compare to back than, I still struggle with the game as I described in the previous page.

@Daniele77 might struggle in a different way than me, but looking at what you guys suggesing to Daniele77, I'm not sure that he might be able to analyze the ME.

Even me, watching the game on comperhansive and even on full mode struggle with the scenarios i meantioned (CCC that my players suddenly cannot score and ending up lossing to reading 0-3 at home).

I even remember that i used to stream FM16 and watching full matches, it was boring as hell for viewers lol, but the reason was that i tried to get the best result of understanding the issues in my games.

IRL i can point very well issues, but in the game, even if i point something it turns badly against me in the middle of the season (around december).

during the time I tend to change, i don't stick to one formation, and i aslo tend to switch TI accordingly if i think it's neccessary and accodring to my knowledge ofcurse, everything works (all my changes during matches etc...) untill around december january.

Edited by MHovel

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29 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

WOW, I wonder how can He spots issues...


:D What makes you think he would much bother! Considering that this is also a contest between better and worse footballers, who can be more and less motivated and fit, respect their manager more and less, be focused on the job or less so, have adapted or struggle to settle in: What makes you think "spotting issues" would be the only way of winning matches? He will have at least a reasonably balanced base tactics though, creating a variety of chances, not all falling to the same player, etc. Which can already be like half the job on the tactics front... he might not perform due to a particularly detailed tactical nous, but then does every football manager in real life football do so? Aren't there a few other areas to the job as well which are put into the game in some form or other? Thinking about those players.....
 

@MHovel, to be fair, in the last few threads despite all you did real well  (better than any AI would) with a team that is at best average / perhaps slightly above for its level. Can't tell about FM 17, but on FM 16 your root cause was tactical, so if you want to have another go, tried to offer some in the last thread in the tactics forums but nothing was provided anymore. :)

 

Edited by Svenc

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As i watch almost every match at full highlights i can assure everyone that reading the game and micromanaging tactics is quite effective, however real life and fm logic might not be equal so lot of the times you have to think "how to make the match engine do that" rather than "how to make it happen in real life"

Side note: If you set up a very basic, balanced tactic and change almost nothing most of the time you will overachive based on my experience

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24 minutes ago, Svenc said:


@MHovel, to be fair, in the last few threads despite all you did real well  (better than any AI would) with a team that is at best average / perhaps slightly above for its level. Can't tell about FM 17, but on FM 16 your root cause was tactical, so if you want to have another go, tried to offer some in the last thread in the tactics forums but nothing was provided anymore. :)

 

I know that i had problems in FM16 at start because i had many issues and i also mentioned it.

My english wasn't even good enough (now it's much better but there is still a way to improve), and also I didn't understand the features in game.

I got some help, it was very helpfull and i managed to succeed in FM16 but very late because fm17 was about to come out so i waited for it.

Don't get me wrong in FM16 i managed to succeed eventually after the help i got from the tactic forums.

the problem i have now is different and i think because of my english i cannot seems to explain it properly.

I think that the changes that have been made to the ME this year seems like something is broken.

This is my opinion from what i witnessed.

I think the only way for me is to try and record my gameplay and to provide those info, but due to lack and low intrest with the game already, i don't feel like i want to do it atm, maybe in the future.

 

I wanted to create a thread about CCC that not being convered.

this is one of my videos that was supposed to be in the videos provided, just encounter it by mistake in my youtube channel:

 

wilson weaker foot is fairely strong (in case there is a bug in the 3D engine design and it's showing that wilson shoot with his weaker foot by any mean, not sure what's the word), even though he shot twice with his weaker foot.

now, the angle isn't the best in this one, but the GK is on the floor already.

i can give you even much better 1 on 1 situations when a player just seem to miss and in the other hand AI scores from corner angle (the known bug) with few long shots the entire match, and one of them is the goal.

I wanted to create a thread in the bug forums, but i was like meh, f**k it i will just leave the game because it's too much energy and time.

I tried to find other manager games but nothing is compared to this one.

 

 

Edited by MHovel

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If I simply would like to won, probably I'll go through that way. 

But I Ike to develop systems, create tactics so I'll never play FM in that way. 

Again, what I blame, more than ever is the huge unbalance between CPU and user. 

During my posts on this forum I was (obviously) playing FM and I turned to full match highlights. 

I spotted that Atalanta were playing a lot through the middle and tight a little my formation. 

BANG! Their midfielder explodes a shoots from 25 meters

BANG! They scored from a corner. GAME OVER after 30 minutes. 

Think at the opposite, can CPU came back in a game you're leading 2-0. Yeah, they can, almost always, even with poor teams. 

 

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Well, I have some experience on completely failing in this game...

In my humble opinion, the game is being biased for the tactical side.

4 hours ago, Daniele77 said:

This is crazy!!! I like to start with a team in the lowerest league, buying yong people and let them grow up with the club. Can you imagine how many years of play I've to spend to achieve something looking every single game in extended mode? To learn "when to microchange"? Coooooome on!!!

This is exactly what SI doesn't want. SI wants you to watch matches and tweak. This is why the tactical side (and a biased tactical visión) is developed constantly and the AI managers keep dismantling their squads if you give it enough seasons. We have fancy roles like ramdeuter, Inverted wingback or trequartista but the AI makes idiotical trades and wingers defend wide and attack narrow.

That doesn't mean that some people can still play the game how we used to do (choose a tactic, sign players develop youngsters) because SI is reluctant to change this too fast but SI seems to be determined to increase tactical difficulty (in their particular visión of tactics).

The oficial way to play the game is tactical (fancy tactical) and this is how it seems is going to be developed. To reach the higher levels of playing you need to master the ME and this is just a start: the game will escalate in difficult in near future versions because according to some people it's  still too easy tactically 

Now you have to choose, play it or don't, try to learn or don't.

-----------------------------------------------------

I have no inside information so I can be completely mistaken. This is only my humble opinion.

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29 minutes ago, Daniele77 said:

If I simply would like to won, probably I'll go through that way. 

But I Ike to develop systems, create tactics so I'll never play FM in that way. 

Again, what I blame, more than ever is the huge unbalance between CPU and user. 

During my posts on this forum I was (obviously) playing FM and I turned to full match highlights. 

I spotted that Atalanta were playing a lot through the middle and tight a little my formation. 

BANG! Their midfielder explodes a shoots from 25 meters

BANG! They scored from a corner. GAME OVER after 30 minutes. 

Think at the opposite, can CPU came back in a game you're leading 2-0. Yeah, they can, almost always, even with poor teams. 

 

Could you specify what do you mean by tightening your formation? 

Why would the game be over after 30 minutes? You have 60 minutes left. Did they score because they are playing better than you? Or you conceded from the only chances your enemy created and otherwise you dominate them? People seem to jump to the conclusion too quickly and start chopping their tactic to pieces because they are 2-0 down after 30 minutes, even when they are actually doing well, and they are just facing bad luck.

Also there is no inbalance between AI and user, that is just a convenient excuse, ******** happens both ways equally.

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2 hours ago, Scrench said:

People seem to jump to the conclusion too quickly and start chopping their tactic to pieces because they are 2-0 down after 30 minutes, even when they are actually doing well, and they are just facing bad luck.


Which is a problem. If you break assessing luck down to its most simplistic, it is the side with the better shots that tends to win (but not always). At the moment all feedback is of the Charles Reepian type: If you have more of this and that, you're right in there. Only no. I've got a few pkms from @MHovel on my HD and don't think any tweaks to finishes is going to change much, could be wrong. The videos aside, there is a match with a stats domination in the 5:1 advantage ratio for shots that ended 0-0, but despite the opponent having but two attempts, it might have won that match, as the best opportunity fell to it (open play, well-timed cross, header from close range), whereas his domination tended to be inflated by set piece attempts (crowded boxes) in all, the reasons of which without asking would be his to work out (unless SI would spoon feed). Atm, any such is only revealed by manually clicking on all dots, and it also requires subjective reading (only the coders could give an accurate opinion). The stats posted in the tactics forum didn't near have such advantages, which caused confusion. That's not to single out, this is my pet peeve I want to see improved. It is a  wide-spread perception issue, fueled by lacking feedback. Agree with the defending observations re: 4-4-2.

As for the tweaking , aside of that assistant managers can already take over match days, the quote below is directly off one of the co-authors of the initial Tactics Creator, which if anything made the tactical parts of the game more accessible and quicker ever since. AI may improve. But this is still FM to me. There's changes, but I haven't seen how AIreinvented the wheel in terms of attacking/defending, and as this is based on basic football theory, it never might. Nobody denies that if you watch and learn, you can get added points out of this. And besides, having a tactical engine in there would be pointless without having a bit meat on it, why not simply let the thing crunch results based on some arbitrarily calculated "team strength", the better team mostly simply winning x out of y times. But anybody who puts loads time into scouting has an edge in the transfers too. At the moment nothing in the game assists much in those steps taken, though, including reading the match play. That doesn't mean it's going to stay this way though ("virtual ALan Hansen!") :applause:. The better feedback SI may get where its players may struggle, who knows?

 

Quote

It's a total misconception that you need to watch full games and tweak. I hate the word tweak. You have to do two things.


1: Learn how to build a fundamentally stable tactic that suits the attributes of your squad
2: Devise a few tactical plans to deal with different scenarios and load them up as and when required.That's it. You might want to play a few whole games when you are learning, but once you've got it, not only can you go back to shorter highlight settings, but you'll have it for life. No more 30 minutes of tactical tweaking between games, or replaying games to test tactics, but total confidence that you can quickly build a working and successful system in any formation, and adapt it to all conditions and match situation in seconds.

Edited by Svenc

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Well, there are at least 2 Schools in Football:

One prefers to explayin Football from the pure Tactical Approach and believes Football is a game like Chess and PLayers are Figurines/Marionettes that can be exchanged quite easy and that a Win is achieved by Tacitcally outsmarting the Oposition, reacting to any changes they will do while a match lasts.

The other explains Football from the more Strategic Approach, believing that Tactic in Football in the End works along the Tic Tac Toe principle and if done right allways end in a Stalemate thus a win has to be achieved other way - i symphatize more with this School bcs it is closer to the laws of logic and nature.

For example the natural law that two euqal Forces that work against each other neutralize themself and the flaw of the Tactical School is to believe that they can overcome this - the true Variable in Football is the Human varibale, the Mentality, Fitness and Quality of a Player and the key to success lies in these Variable and the way to win is to neutralize the opostion and allow your Players to break out of the Tactic-Stalemate in case they see a Chance to Win the game for you, especially in the final third close to the opostion Goal.

To neutralize your opositon you do not need to make many if any tactical change per match while the mastery of your tactic grows to an almost natural understanding of it that is an advantage in itself.

 

Coaches like Guardiola made the world believe tactic is the one and all solution and yet he strongly depends on having the best Players in a league to win any match and the statistics for encounering almost equal oponents in the Bundesliga had grown worse and worse - he did succeed bcs he won against the weakers sides but you have to understand that in germany that time many Teams simply surrendered themself to Bayenr Munich and did not even try to get a draw but tried 3rd grade Players to not have injuries from a game they believed to be unwinnable - he did not win the Championsleague and got wrecked hard 2 times since he left Spain and in England he pretty much disapointed and now intends to buy himself back again to the top so - its the human factor that decides victory - allways!

 

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You absolutely do not have to micro manage tactics. With a tactical setup that is sound and sensible from scratch, you could go through season after season with the same tactical setup without touching it again and do very well. Me, I play wih 1 base setup that I use in every match. The other two slots in my tactical overview consists of one tactical "tweak" to my base tactic, used when I'm desperate for a goal, and the other variant is the opposite; for when I need to protect the current scoreline. These variants are rarely used, particularly the defensive one,  but I have these 2 tactical tweaks to my base tactic there if I need them.  I spend zero minutes tweaking tactics between matches (to adjust to the opponent or whatever). I simply never do that. It also take me about 3 seconds in a match to change to one of my variants, if needed. I can go through season after season without doing anything else to my tactics and still do very well.

Now, from time to time I do experiment with tactics, but these are in that case more wholesale changes, when I have a new  tactical idea, or when I want something different from what I'm usually playing, or when I want to see if I can do even better. Often my experiments don't work very well, and are discarded. But sometimes they work well, and I may go with that as my base tactical setup instead of my old setup. Again, I will make 1 base setup with 2 variants, and I will go with that. Untill next time I feel the urge for a change. In between these experiments I spend minimal time pondering over tactics; it's all about training players or buying new ones.

All it requires is that you have a sound tactical setup to start with. Then it's just a matter of having the right players to execute that sound setup. If you believe you have good players that consistentlyshould be doing better than they do, then it's pretty simple; you don't have a sound tactical setup. It is flawed and unbalanced, and you need to change it. With a good, sound and balanced setup, the hard part becomes figuring out who the right players for your tactics are.

Edited by thomit

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9 minutes ago, thomit said:

You absolutely do not have to micro manage tactics. With a tactical setup that is sound and sensible from scratch, you could go through season after season with the same tactical setup without touching it again and do very well. Me, I play wih 1 base setup that I use in every match. The other two slots in my tactical overview consists of one tactical "tweak" to my base tactic, used when I'm desperate for a goal. It's simply my base tactic only even more aggressively attacking and with more risk-taking. The other tactical variant is the opposite; for when I need to protect the current scoreline. These variants are rarely used, particularly the defensive one,  but I have these 2 tactical tweaks to my base tactic there if I need them.  I spend zero minutes tweaking tactics between matches (to adjust to the opponent or whatever). I simply never do that. It also take me about 3 seconds in a match to change to one of my variants, if needed.

Now, from time to time I do experiment with tactics, but these are in that case more wholesale changes, when I have a new  tactical idea, or when I want something different from what I'm usually playing, or when I want to see if I can do even better. Often my experimenrs don't work very well, and are discarded. But sometimes they work well, and I may go with that as my base tactical setup instead of my old setup. Again, I will make 1 base setup with 2 variants, and I will go with that. Untill next time I feel the urge for a change. In between these experiments I spend minimal time pondering over tactics; it's all about training players or buying new ones.

All it requires is that you have a sound tactical setup to start with. Then it's just a matter of having the right players to execute that sound setup. If you believe you have good players that consistentlyshould be doing better than they do, then it's pretty simple; you don't have a sound tactical setup. It is flawed and unbalanced, and you need to change it.

How to recognize situations where poor quality of players causes problems, rather than the system?

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Sometimes micro managing consists nothing more of knowing you need to sub your workhouse player/players at certain points. For example, I use a tactic that heavily relies upon the wing backs, the tactic is far more successful with fresh wing backs in the 60th minute than without and does an enormous amount to reduce late goals. If its opposition I'm really worried about, I change their attack role to support and that is it the rest stays the same. 

It is micro-managing, but its a pretty standard approach game after game. 

People can't give you the answers to questions like that thought @Bunkerossian if people can just read the game better than you, they can read the game better than you and that is all there is to it. It's an acquired skill over time. 

Sometimes you can fall into traps within the game without realising, I found players perfect for my box to box midfield roles in the team, had 4 who were brilliant in terms of their attribute spreads. However, the tallest of them was 5'8" and two were 5'4" so when they worked they worked brilliantly. Watching games though I noticed time after time they were getting out-muscled and beaten in the air in midfield comfortably. It took me about 2 seasons to realise and remedy, but for that tactic now one of the things I always check is that the ideal BBM is around 6'3" or 6'4" but as long as they're above six foot its generally fine. 

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Well yes, I'll go with santy001 on that one. It's largely down to experience. Much like real managers, in fact.  What is needed from you, is perseverance, and patience.  Lots of it. Learn to enjoy the process of learning, and focus less on instant gratification. Most real manager have to go that route too.

I will freely admit it's a lot easier for me than it is for relatively newer players, because I'm a very experienced FM'er. I have played this game or it's older incarnation CM, for 20 years. I'm privileged to have been learning the game for almost as long as SI have been learning how to make it.

I don't claim to have all the answers though, and I never will. I'm still learning this game. But I get better at it all the time.

Edit: One thing I'd like to add though, would be that as long as you're learning the basics about tactics in the game, and find you often change them in between or in matches, maybe you should give FMT a go. You are not punished for changing your tactics around there (no "tactical familiarity" to deal with). If was one of those that are still struggling to get to grips with the tactical mechanics of FM, that would be what I'd do, probably. I say probably because I haven't actually played FMT much at all, but just that bit about tactical familiarity must surely make tactics a bit less confusing.

Edited by thomit

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I too have been playing this game for about 20 years, and before I retired and time was at a premium I too did very little tactical tweaks, whilst now I have the time, micro manage everthing, am I more successful probably not, but I am getting much more enjoyment out of the game being able to do that.

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All the s**t of the game is in this screeshot.

SERIE B PLAYOFFS

I'm on lead 1-0, I call for a subs but the CPU go on and, obviusly, he microchanged and I can't. One minute, one shot, 1-1 (obviously the first shot in the game).

EXTRA TIME

2-1 (obviously something like 25 shots at 5/6...). Same s**t..NO WORST THAN BEFORE. This time I tweacked and they scored (again, in a minute...) with a silly stupid slow shot just outside the box.

RIDICULUS, ABSOLUTELY RIDICULUS.

 

Schermata 2017-06-20 alle 00.08.12.png

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Moreover...Just before the game my best 2 strikers were misteriously injured...

"microchanges"..."tweaks"..."realism"...Ahh, the beautiful game...

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1 hour ago, Daniele77 said:

All the s**t of the game is in this screeshot.

 

Schermata 2017-06-20 alle 00.08.12.png


As you know, these screenshots don't show anything. Not even the stats page would much. If you truly think there is an issue, which there might, you may save the match and upload the file in the bugs forum. I wanted to see them fixed too! I also don't like when decent debates turn into rage fests. If you take breath, a step back and think it through, what would this be like if everybody who's just thrown a game came on to log on and vent about it?  Furthermore, what would it mean for the game to be purposely coded in a way that would tick you off? Also, from a commercial perspective. People don't like losing overly much, in particular if they perceive it as harsh/unjust, and FM Live may have taught that lesson to SI the harder way, as in an MMO environment, there will be serial losers by definition. For a select elite to win, others have to lose a-plenty. And there's absolutely nothing you could do about it.

 

Edited by Svenc

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9 hours ago, Daniele77 said:

Moreover...Just before the game my best 2 strikers were misteriously injured...

"microchanges"..."tweaks"..."realism"...Ahh, the beautiful game...

You're obviously frustrated, so just take solace in the fact that FM has become self-aware, and its able to read your forum messages and this is why your strikers were mysteriously injured. Self aware AI will not tolerate dissent. 

The screenshot does suggest though that while you took the lead early in extra time, with the chips down and now a need to go all or burst, your opposition went for bust and got it. If your tactic is anyway particularly attacking with players committed high up the pitch, it can be suicidal against the opponent doing the same, one of you is going to get an opening and if it doesn't fall in your favour you're in real trouble.

The only consolation is its actually very hard to prepare for this situation in FM, because in all likeliness you will only see it once or twice a season. If you win a 2 leg european/play-off tie by a big score in the first leg, and in the latter stages of cup finals if you're winning. 

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It seems to me that if you are in a comfortable lead, but the opposition manage to score, they get a huge boost in morale, and then you're in trouble. Chances start piling up. And no, I don't use super-offensive tactics that leave me open unless I must chase a result. I prefer defensive play.

Edited by Bunkerossian

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7 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

It seems to me that if you are in a comfortable lead, but the opposition manage to score, they get a huge boost in morale, and then you're in trouble. Chances start piling up. And no, I don't use super-offensive tactics that leave me open unless I must chase a result. I prefer defensive play.

Of course they get a boost because thats what happens IRL.

A team that are say 2-0 down and starting to give up suddenly get a goal and their tails are up.  They see the possibility of getting a point or even perhaps a win and this improves their mental state giving them more motivation/desire to get another goal.  Basically they get their belief back that they can get something from the match. 

On the flipside the other team suddenly start to doubt themselves and a bit of uncertainty creeps into their game play.

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That's all a bit of an element. Back then you  had the likes of Nigel de Jong, M. van Bommel et all getting really pumped after their Dutch side succumbed to the 3rd goal running, so that goes both ways too, depends a little on context (and personality). Of course, none of that matters if the AI manager orders 8 players to stay behind the ball...... again, what's underrated is that AI managers switch menality, shape, and to top it of duty during a match. If they have a sniff, they throw bodies forward. E.g. "opposition starts playing like Barcelona",when all it does is overloading several areas of the pitch to go for "broke". If it sat back the 89 minutes before, guess what, that might actually be their only shots.

Edited by Svenc

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On 17/06/2017 at 17:30, Bunkerossian said:

Are some people just unable to analyse things corrently- and thus unfit to play this game?

Yes

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On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 16:30, Bunkerossian said:

Are some people just unable to analyse things corrently- and thus unfit to play this game?

 

20 minutes ago, borivoje213 said:

Yes

No.  Some may not be able to analyse things as others do, but it doesn't make them "unfit" to play FM. 

It may limit their ability to tweak tactical systems during matches, but tweaking isn't always necessary if the core tactic is sound.  Plus there are plenty of tactics available to download that whilst they may not guarantee you win the CL every year, they'll almost certainly bring you some measure of success.  That in turn can free up enjoyment in other areas, such as squad building or youth development.

1 hour ago, Bunkerossian said:

It seems to me that if you are in a comfortable lead, but the opposition manage to score, they get a huge boost in morale, and then you're in trouble. Chances start piling up. And no, I don't use super-offensive tactics that leave me open unless I must chase a result. I prefer defensive play.

Add to this your own players may start to feel the pressure as well.  Now you have an aggressive AI, using players who may have just had a morale boost, whilst your own might be feeling under the cosh.  That's not a good recipe.

Defensive tactics are all well and good, and absolutely have a place, but sometimes you need a pressure release - an outlet - to get the ball back down the other end of the pitch and put the AI back under pressure.

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I think the conspiracy theory that Football Manager is rigged and there's nothing you can do to win is laughable. How would that benefit S.I? It's not an online casino where rigging it would mean stealing your money.

The match engine is doing a huge number of calculations, of which only making a slight tweak to tactics can drastically change the outcome of what happens in subsequent highlights. A change from short passing to direct passing will effect the outcome of the M.E calculations.

No one likes to lose, especially if they feel it's a cheesy way e.g the a.i only having two shots on target but scoring them both, while you have 30 shots. But that sort of crap happens in real life too. Look at when Everton played Manchester City, Everton had far less attempts on goal but scored every single one pretty much against Claudio Bravo.

The unpredictability and randomness is what makes the game exciting. I get that some people like to download a tactic and just dominate each and every game, or develop a tactic that requires no tweaks or changes at all, but that is no fun to me. Surely most people would get bored of just winning every single match?

From my observation it seems that those who tend to complain tend to watch less comprehensive highlights, and aren't fans of having to constantly make changes during a match. I think that is the problem here. Football Manager in my opinion is evolving into a game that requires analysis of what is happening and adapting to it. That is the best route to go down in terms of what I want.

The days of CM 01/02 when you could develop a killer tactic and constantly win everything is fading away. Yes it is possible to be successful with a few base tactics and minimal changes but nowhere near as it used to be in my opinion, and my most wanted feature is an even more adaptive A.I that promotes even more tweaks during a match.

Edited by OCD

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2 hours ago, santy001 said:

You're obviously frustrated, so just take solace in the fact that FM has become self-aware, and its able to read your forum messages and this is why your strikers were mysteriously injured. Self aware AI will not tolerate dissent. 

 

Yes, probably, but "Never give up". :)

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

It may limit their ability to tweak tactical systems during matches, but tweaking isn't always necessary if the core tactic is sound.  Plus there are plenty of tactics available to download that whilst they may not guarantee you win the CL every year, they'll almost certainly bring you some measure of success.  That in turn can free up enjoyment in other areas, such as squad building or youth development.

2 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

You're misunderstanding me, I don't wanna win everygame, I hate to cheat, if I'd like to cheat i'll simply reload the game, that is something i never do.

I'd like if (and I think that SI must go in that direction...) FM teach me in doing better and this can't be done in that way, simply putting the ball at the center of the pitch fore the kick-off and scoring at the first attempt without make me realize what's happening (twice).

I find that is it funny to have a counter attack tactic in your second slot that change your offensive team in something else, but is the way the game overachieve when CPU react that I find is wrong moreover if this happen suddenly.

 

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1 hour ago, Daniele77 said:

I'd like if (and I think that SI must go in that direction...) FM teach me in doing better and this can't be done in that way, simply putting the ball at the center of the pitch fore the kick-off and scoring at the first attempt without make me realize what's happening (twice).

Its unrealistic to expect SI to teach you how to manage, its like going onto a Call of Duty forum and asking them to teach you how to shoot.

All other people can do is to help you understand the basics but its up to yourself to put that knowledge into your save.

It would be different if someone was sitting there watching you play and could point things out at the moment it happens.

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As great the community is for providing and supplying downloads, I think that is where half the frustration comes from (not intentionally of course). :) No matter how effective that download, unless somebody finds a way to field 17 outfield players, there will be some hole in there. That is where that incredible run punctured by the sudden random 0-4 loss against the relegation fodder comes in. The type who dared to keep its pacey advanced players pretty high up the pitch, with them breaking into the space opening up caused by all opposition players pushed up in possession,  including both wing backs on Marcelo duty plus the central players encouraged to push up alongside == broken, random, senseless game.  That's not made up, btw. Big reason of which that the more popular download portals don't much care about balance.... or team sports logics. It's nobody's "fault" really, but the feedback the ME team gets must be schizophrenic to the extreme.

 

3 hours ago, Daniele77 said:

I find that is it funny to have a counter attack tactic in your second slot that change your offensive team in something else, but is the way the game overachieve when CPU react that I find is wrong moreover if this happen suddenly.


If you mean their drastic changes which can still happen, I agree with that too. I think the extremes aren't handled extreme enough to be realistic, for instance, how many competitive matches of real football start with sides, even pretty long shots, keeping half their team behind the ball? This is a video of an older release, but the principle applies. The first part shows a Napoli AI that is extremely focused on not conceding, none of the full backs advance (defend duty), plus at least a central player (in formations with DMs sitting deeper by nature that tends even more pronounced). What that means is that most of their attacks via FM -- usually (!) -- are mostly intercepted, as here. The second part shows the complete opposite, which is fine for a late game overload, this time everybody pushed up. However both extremes, in particular the first one, aren't used as extremes imo, you can have AI teams playing this defensively for almost the entire matches. Nothing you could do yourself or even trump, but it still fuels (statistically) one-sided matches, and can be perceived as a magic boost -- a side that you "dominated" all match suddenly, magically "switches on".

Edited by Svenc

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I have thousand of hours played over the years in FM and I am useless at analyzing what I see during the game. Instead I have adopted the "trial and error" method which basically involves creating tons of tactics over the course of a FM-version and hopefully find one that works. I'm currently in my 15th save as Liverpool and I won the league season one. Not because I can interpret what happens during a game but rather because I've started to slightly understand what combinations work. Of course it's a lot of luck as well, the save before this one was a horror show and I constantly lost points.

I've had a lot of comments coming my way "If you've played that much and still don't understand it's your own fault" and to some extent that is true, but I honestly think I just don't have the "talent" to understand this game and I've started to accept that. 

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