The Losing Streak

[DannyLad252]

Hi all,

I've been playing FM/CM since 01/02. I love the game and have been reading up on the tactical side of things for a while now.

Yet despite everything, I have a bit of a problem that has been bothering me for a while now...

Since FM15, I have not won a single competitive game.

I've consistently been trying to tackle this, and I've taken the advice of several guides on this site and others, yet the same pattern occurs.

I can sometimes start off brilliantly in the preseason. Yet the moment I begin in a competition, losses and draws plague my starting of the season, followed by the dire losing streak that ends up with me losing my job or starting anew.

I've tried with loads of sides; Liverpool, Palace, Everton, WBA, Leicester, Coventry, both Sheffield's, Arsenal, England U21s, PSV, Feyenoord, Shalke, Dortmund, the list goes on!

I've tried it with attacking and defensive strategies, fluid and structured, TIs and PIs yet nothing has worked for me! Yet before FM15 I could at the very least come midtable!

For the sake of helping you guys get a glimpse of my thinking when I play, I'm going to assume control of Liverpool since I'm most comfortable with their players.

Before I begin, it should be noted that my ideal preference of playing style is quite cautious. I like my teams to be solid defensively, and to use the space created by getting men behing the ball to launch attacks. Despite this, I always aim to adapt to the team that I'm with:

The first thing that I will do is analyse the team for a particular style. I do this by looking at the players and the team at well as their stats.

At Liverpool, I recognise them to be a team that should be challenging for a CL spot. They have very aggressive, technical players who I believe are more suited to an attacking style of play with plenty of fluid movement between the players.

I recognise players such as Mane, Coutinho, and Firmino as key players in higher positions. Upon judgement of the team as a whole, I look to play a 4-2-3-1 formation, along with two backup formations for different scenarios.

Upon further inspection, I come to the following conclusion as a base tactic:

4-2-3-1

GK: D (Karius)

LB/RB: A/S respectively (Moreno/Clyne)

CBs: D (Matip/Lovren)

BWM: D (Can)

BBM: S (Henderson)

IF(L): S (Coutinho)

AM(C): A (Firmino)

W(R): A (Mane)

DLF: S (Origi)

Mentality: Control

Team Shape: Fluid

TIs: Shorter Passing

PIs: N/A

For the most part, the control mentality applies much of how I want the team to play, so I feel that little is needed in terms of TIs.

I'll usually use PIs in game to exploit weaknesses and prevent the opponent exploiting our own. A common choice of mine is to instruct the fullbacks to not be harsh in tackles so as to prevent the attacker losing the fullback. I do this by asking the fullbacks to ease off tackles, and sometimes to hold their position. 

I like to instruct my assistant to set opponent PIs so that we can nullify specific threats. For example, if we were playing Arsenal, I'll check to see if the assistant has rightly instructed the team to close down Ozil.

It should be noted that if I decided to follow my more cautious approach, I may set up the team with:

Mentality: Counter

Team Shape: Flexible

TIs: Higher Tempo, Close Down More, More Direct Passing

PIs: N/A

The reasoning behind this is to encourage a lower level of risk without allowing the opponent to box the team in their own half.

In terms of signings, I like players that come into the side to fit with the style already implemented at the team. Despite this, I usually always look for determined and hardworking players who can stay fit to run for the full match.

In training, I like to leave it to my background staff as I feel that they are usually a lot better at preparing the team than I am. I like my teams to be fit and well balanced.

I'll end this here for the time being, but if anyone has any advice or would like to know more, let me know!

[lemeuresnew]

 would sugest adding a couple of team instructions. if you want possession, add shorter passing or retain possession depending on preference. with a top heavy team set up like that, i would also add a higher press with prevent gk playing short

i understand keeping things simple with limiting the TI aloud, but to have non selected to me is relying too much on players selected and not actually having a game plan. if that makes sense

then just see what differences that makes and if you like them

[herne79]

imo the single most important thing in a 4-2-3-1 is having a rock solid midfield.  They're your defensive screen and the only players covering that space down to the defenders.  Is a BWM (very active, lots of pressing, hard tackling, liable to constantly move away from position) plus a BBM (prone to getting forward and roaming from position) likely to give you that rock solid midfield?

Then layer on top of that your high risk mentality, which also increases individual player mentalities and very quickly you could find your midfield is getting out of control.  Further, you will also be playing with a high defensive line, so the right central defender attributes are important.  With a high def line, I'll favour Anticipation, Tackling and Pace over Marking and Positioning (although they shouldn't be ignored of course).  This is because you are playing aggressively, so the defenders need these attributes to help read the game and recover quickly when the ball gets played through them or over the top.  Playing the offside trap can also help.

One further thought, bearing in mind this sentence you posted:

3 hours ago, DannyLad252 said:

my ideal preference of playing style is quite cautious

There is another often overlooked form of the 4-2-3-1, which arguably most teams actually play, and that's the deep 4-2-3-1 with the CM players moved back to the DM line and the AM players back in midfield.  I'm not saying to change to it, just keep it in mind if you revert back to your preferred play style.

[DannyLad252]

16 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

 would sugest adding a couple of team instructions. if you want possession, add shorter passing or retain possession depending on preference. with a top heavy team set up like that, i would also add a higher press with prevent gk playing short

i understand keeping things simple with limiting the TI aloud, but to have non selected to me is relying too much on players selected and not actually having a game plan. if that makes sense

then just see what differences that makes and if you like them

Fair enough, thank you for the advice  With the higher press, am I right in thinking that the team will naturally play a high press under Control mentality anyway?

12 hours ago, herne79 said:

imo the single most important thing in a 4-2-3-1 is having a rock solid midfield.  They're your defensive screen and the only players covering that space down to the defenders.  Is a BWM (very active, lots of pressing, hard tackling, liable to constantly move away from position) plus a BBM (prone to getting forward and roaming from position) likely to give you that rock solid midfield?

Then layer on top of that your high risk mentality, which also increases individual player mentalities and very quickly you could find your midfield is getting out of control.  Further, you will also be playing with a high defensive line, so the right central defender attributes are important.  With a high def line, I'll favour Anticipation, Tackling and Pace over Marking and Positioning (although they shouldn't be ignored of course).  This is because you are playing aggressively, so the defenders need these attributes to help read the game and recover quickly when the ball gets played through them or over the top.  Playing the offside trap can also help.

One further thought, bearing in mind this sentence you posted:

There is another often overlooked form of the 4-2-3-1, which arguably most teams actually play, and that's the deep 4-2-3-1 with the CM players moved back to the DM line and the AM players back in midfield.  I'm not saying to change to it, just keep it in mind if you revert back to your preferred play style.

So my thinking might be due to the player roles with regards to the formation?! Thank you  With that in mind, I'm thinking that I should either change the formation, or perhaps change the two midfielders to CM (D) and DLP (S) respectively so that they sit back a bit more than the previous setup?

See, this is where my cautious thinking comes into mind. I don't want the defence to be pressing too high up the field. I'd rather get men behind the ball and block any attacks from a deeper setup. Obviously I can't be cautious with every team, so I'll have to adapt.

Interesting about the 4-2-3-1! I wonder why teams who set up with a 4-2-3-1 on FM and in real life don't set up with the deeper formation? For curiosity sake, if I planned to set out with a regular FM 4-2-3-1 instead of the deeper option, could I tailor that to work similar to the deep formation?

I'll reply with more later (either tonight or tomorrow), and I may also consider starting a new game to see if I can beat the streak

[summatsupeer]

Don't try and over-complicate things.  If you want them to defend deeper, then position them deeper in the formation. Your formation is a main factor in defensive positioning, trying to alter it using anything else won't have the exact same effect and would need a good reason to do so.

A combination of DLP-D/S and CM-D/S is tried and tested.  You'll just have to make sure they combine with those around them and you put the right players into the positions.  Putting the wrong balance of players into a tactic can make it look terrible.

[lemeuresnew]

6 hours ago, DannyLad252 said:

Fair enough, thank you for the advice  With the higher press, am I right in thinking that the team will naturally play a high press under Control mentality anyway?

control will raise pressing slightly, as it is a slightly aggressive formation. in my 4-2-3-1, i personally leave the cm players in the positions you have them, usually one bwm-d and another dlp-d. then to make the press higher without pulling them too far away from there positions tell them to hold position and dribble less. if you have ppms that they keep position or come deep, even better

then i put the top 4 players to close down more, tight marking (great for inside forwards to pressure the defence, or wingers on to full backs), and prevent gk distribution. this will give an almost split press if that makes sense? can be fun to play around with to get it as you want

[Svenc]

What, wait a minute, barely winning competitive games with sides such as Arsenal, Liverpool, PSV or Feyenoord? At least finishing midtable on older itertations? Didn't struck that anybody else as odd? Is this supposed to be an exaggeration to make a point or is it genuine? Because if it is genuine this sounds more like misapplied individual/specific man marking instructions to me. Those are pretty much oldschool man marking, whoever is assigned to man mark leaves his position to follow the guy around the pitch opening gaping holes if this is applied on the wrong players in your formation, up to the point that every 2nd attack an opposition launches will see him clear on goal. Even if you would belt continue after putting the likes of the above in and never much doing through matches either, you would be expected to have a somewhat ok season simply by the virtue of random chance every once in a while otherwise... because it is neither an experimental/bonkers formation, tons of contradicting TIs/PIs applied and most importantly the duty allocation itself overall doesn't look horrible either plus with quite a few of the above sides you have good teams, even league dominating teams.

That's my experience anyway, because the last time somebody had this severe issues, and he had it genuine, it was due to specific marking instructions. In this case admittedly paired with an experimental one CB formation, where the CB was always manually instructed to man mark and thus follow one of the opposing forwards accross the pitch.... opening the way goalside on every opposition attack.

[DannyLad252]

My apologies for the late reply! So much for coming back tomorrow 

On 6/5/2017 at 18:41, Svenc said:

What, wait a minute, barely winning competitive games with sides such as Arsenal, Liverpool, PSV or Feyenoord? At least finishing midtable on older iterations? Didn't struck that anybody else as odd? Is this supposed to be an exaggeration to make a point or is it genuine? Because if it is genuine this sounds more like misapplied individual/specific man marking instructions to me. Those are pretty much old school man marking, whoever is assigned to man mark leaves his position to follow the guy around the pitch opening gaping holes if this is applied on the wrong players in your formation, up to the point that every 2nd attack an opposition launches will see him clear on goal. Even if you would belt continue after putting the likes of the above in and never much doing through matches either, you would be expected to have a somewhat ok season simply by the virtue of random chance every once in a while otherwise... because it is neither an experimental/bonkers formation, tons of contradicting TIs/PIs applied and most importantly the duty allocation itself overall doesn't look horrible either plus with quite a few of the above sides you have good teams, even league dominating teams.

That's my experience anyway, because the last time somebody had this severe issues, and he had it genuine, it was due to specific marking instructions. In this case admittedly paired with an experimental one CB formation, where the CB was always manually instructed to man mark and thus follow one of the opposing forwards across the pitch.... opening the way goalside on every opposition attack.

Sadly, this isn't an exaggeration. To put your idea to the test, I decided to start a season with Everton, and not use any opposition or player instructions to ensure minimal marking instructions outside of the team instructions.

At Everton I felt that I could perhaps challenge for a top 6 spot if things went our way. We had a group of good players in attack, and we were backed up by a solid midfield and defense. I noticed that the team were technical, but not particularly suited to an aggressive style of play. I was delighted, as I'd be able to play with a more cautious approach based on keeping men behind the ball, and fast transitions when opportunities arose.

I decided to play a 4-3-3 DM Wide with a counter/flexible approach, I didn't feel that the team should be looking to control possession in an already cautious approach, so I asked the team to play fast and direct using the TIs.

The team was based on a TM (S) upfront, with two wingers supporting (A/S), a standard pair of CMs (A/S), a DLP (D) in the DM position, a standard back four (S/D/D/A), and a standard keeper.

The preseason went great! We won most of our matches and the team as a whole looked strong. They looked very much like a team trying to control possession for the most part, which wasn't ideal considering my plans, but it made sense considering the counter mentality, and the team seemed to be playing well, so I didn't change things.

Then came the first game. a 3-2 defeat to Watford. I couldn't believe my eyes; a hattrick from Troy Deeney, two easy goals from crosses near the corner flag, and a cheeky chip from deep that hit the bar, took out the keeper and left Deeney with an open goal. I was fuming.

The rest of the season looked no better:

 

Not a single game was in any way convincing. The MK Dons game was unbearable - none of the team turned up (to be fair, I rotated the side to keep the first team fresh, the game included unused subs and a couple of reserve players).

After the Arsenal defeat, I knew I had to make a change. I switched to a 4-4-2 with a TM (S) and CF (A) upfront, a DLP (S) and CM (D), two wingers (A/S), and a standard back four (S/D/D/A). I decided to change the direct play to a long ball strategy to try and reach the two upfront, allowing the wingers to get higher up to support the attack.

We began to see less possession, but we also began to see more opportunities during the highlights. Despite this, little changed, and for the last two games before my sacking, I rocked the apple cart by going for a 4-2-3-1 with Control/Fluid: a CF (S), a wide three attacking the box, with two wingers and an AM (A/A/S), a DLP and CM (S/D), a standard back four (S/D/D/A) and a SK (D). For the TIs, I asked the team to press higher, play faster and play more direct to try to encourage greater possession and more fast transitions.

I was sacked with Everton rock bottom and with no wins in 10 PL games...

All of this was with no PIs or OIs throughout the season, albeit to deal with a couple of threats in game.

Seeing this sort of season has become commonplace for me since FM15 

[Fosse]

9 minutes ago, DannyLad252 said:

during the highlights

There's your problem.

How can sort out your problems if you don't even know what they are? Watch the games back, watch games on full highlights mode and then you'll actually be able to diagnose where it's going wrong.

[DannyLad252]

11 hours ago, Fosse said:

There's your problem.

How can sort out your problems if you don't even know what they are? Watch the games back, watch games on full highlights mode and then you'll actually be able to diagnose where it's going wrong.

Sorry. Although I watch the game in extended highlights, I still check defeats afterwards to see why we lost. We usually just end up losing because of mistakes, poor passing, and from losing out in 1v1 and aerial battles. Nothing I do seems to stop this at the moment.

I've also noticed that the opponent seems to have up to 4-5 players who sit back when they have the ball in our final third, or are able to get players back in no time to stop us from attacking.

I can't see how I can break through teams that do this so well.

[Svenc]

51 minutes ago, DannyLad252 said:

Sorry. Although I watch the game in extended highlights, I still check defeats afterwards to see why we lost. We usually just end up losing because of mistakes, poor passing, and from losing out in 1v1 and aerial battles. Nothing I do seems to stop this at the moment.

I've also noticed that the opponent seems to have up to 4-5 players who sit back when they have the ball in our final third, or are able to get players back in no time to stop us from attacking.

I can't see how I can break through teams that do this so well.

 

If opposition is that defensively they typically are also on a low mentality/deep d-line, which means it's tough getting the ball forward quickly to overman them. I think you'd be better off getting a little more expansive yourself. Going wider (counter mentality has width to fairly balanced), stretching the pitch and the play rather than booting it upfield. I think what hit you the most though in this in particular is fielding a lone Isolated Target Man up top in particular in this scenario. This is a fairly limited role if you look into the instructions. The player is discouraged to dribble, he provides limited movement, nor provide much else but an outlet as to keep the ball up. You may get it to work in particular if that's a totally dominant beast, but it's still one of the few rather unique roles that require a bit monitoring as it also encourages players visibly, starting right with the defenders, to boot the ball upfield to him. He then also needs support around his which is why imo in a lone forward formations he's never been the most ideal pick. The play will be channeled to his (he's made the TARGET point basically of moves), and he's then without support initially often. Curiously there's never been a visual cue on the tactics screen of hat happening.

I stand corrected if somebody has gotten him to work, I never use him in such. In fact, my first FM 2015 save I tried I failed some too, even though I encouraged the players behind his to quickly push up. Teams sitting deep should have it reasonably easy to defend him as a lone forward. Would be interesting how you would have performed with Lukaku on something less limiting from the start, say a DLF/s or CF/s. Yes the assistant recommends it for Lukaku as his best role but the assistant recommendation is purely based on a player's attributes. About those apparent panic switches to entirelly different tacics.... tactics need time to gel on full FM. No idea what else is happening, but I will say this: If you struggle to win competitive matches with the likes of PSV, and have been doing so ever since FM 2015, there is likely more going on than merely tactics, starting with player selection, transfer policy, man management the entire package. If you would simply delegate everything to the assistant / holiday, your results would improve by 300% if that is any true in an instant. You could start with "holidaying" through match days and check if it was better... or if you haven't try this on FM Touch as it takes quite a few variables out of the equation.

[DannyLad252]

17 minutes ago, Svenc said:

 

If opposition is that defensively they typically are also on a low mentality/deep d-line, which means it's tough getting the ball forward quickly to overman them. I think you'd be better off getting a little more expansive yourself. Going wider (counter mentality has width to fairly balanced), stretching the pitch and the play rather than booting it upfield. I think what hit you the most though in this in particular is fielding a lone Isolated Target Man up top in particular in this scenario. This is a fairly limited role if you look into the instructions. The player is discouraged to dribble, he provides limited movement, nor provide much else but an outlet as to keep the ball up. You may get it to work in particular if that's a totally dominant beast, but it's still one of the few rather unique roles that require a bit monitoring as it also encourages players visibly, starting right with the defenders, to boot the ball upfield to him. He then also needs support around his which is why imo in lone forward formations he's never been the most ideal pick.

I stand corrected if somebody has gotten him to work, I never use him in such. In fact, my first FM 2015 save I tried I failed some too, even though I encouraged the players behind his to quickly push up. Teams sitting deep should have it reasonably easy to defend him as a lone forward. Would be interesting how you would have performed with Lukaku on something less limiting from the start, say a DLF/s or CF/s. Yes the assistant recommends it for Lukaku as his best role but the assistant recommendation is purely based on a player's attributes. About those apparent panic switches to entirelly different tacics.... tactics need time to gel on full FM. No idea what else is happening, but I will say this: If you struggle to win competitive matches with the likes of PSV, and have been doing so ever since FM 2015, there is likely more going on than merely tactics, starting with player selection, transfer policy, man management the entire package. If you would simply delegate everything to the assistant / holiday, your results would improve by 300% if that is any true in an instant. You could start with "holidaying" through match days and check if it was better.

I'm going to run through a new Everton career with a new set of tactics, and I'll run it through on FM Touch on holiday overnight so that I have the results for you tomorrow 

With regards to the full package you've mentioned, I rarely ever deviate from the AMs training, and I never seem to do anything wrong man management wise. Usually the players respond well to my talks. I rarely buy players in the first transafer window, and I always make sure that they fit around the strengths of the team.

Not that it isn't a factor, but I doubt it has a big impact on my game.

Also, thanks for the tactical advice, I may run the team through on a more expansive tactic to see what happens 

[Rashidi]

I really dislike the 4231, there is little room for mistakes when it comes to player selections. If you get it right, its easy to play with, but flexibility isn't one of the hallmarks of this system

[DannyLad252]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I really dislike the 4231, there is little room for mistakes when it comes to player selections. If you get it right, its easy to play with, but flexibility isn't one of the hallmarks of this system

Interesting. What should I be looking for in a formation to determine it's flexibility?

Overnight Result: The AssMan did MUCH better. The team are 6th and they even went on a winning streak!

I'll post the full results soon.

[DannyLad252]

Here is a snapshot of the results - already miles better than what I had achieved.

For this, I switched to a 4-2-3-1 on Control/Fluid, with rather standard player roles, and similar duties to that of the last few tactics. I did not use any TIs or PIs, and the AssMan was responsible for the OIs.

This has completely stumped me, because I cannot see what the factor could be. As I've already mentioned, I leave much of the running of the club to the backroom staff anyway, so it baffles me that the results are so different with my tactic.

At least with this, I know that the problem isn't necessarily my tactics!  A good result which isn't included in the snapshot was a 5-4 victory over Chelsea!

[lemeuresnew]

2 hours ago, DannyLad252 said:

Interesting. What should I be looking for in a formation to determine it's flexibility?

i would imagine he means formations such as a 4-3-1-2,  where you can change roles for both strikers to make different combinations and styles of play along with having 3 midfielders so you can change there roles to have 1 or 2 supporting, holding etc

with a 4-2-3-1, your midfield 2 have to be set up right or nothing else matters. you cant change there roles or style of play too much without being over run or passed over completely

[looping]

4231 is the most flexible formation I can imagine. Fullbacks can be conservative or very attacking. Double Pivot you can have creator/destroyer, creator/runner (aggressive version), holder/runner, two conservative players etc.. 3 attacking midfielders you can use any combination you can imagine: from wide playmakers to Shadow Striker, Two wingers, Inside Forwards... Your striker can be a number 9 or a more supportive role.

Play can be channeled through the middle, with two wide players cutting inside and fullbacks providing width. You can also do the opposite and play with two wingers. Or a combination without mirroring flanks. You can use a Playmaker in the AMC. If you need to attack more, you can drop him to cm strata and add a more attacking player in AMC strata. 

Etc...

I would be very pleased if anyone explained why 4231 is not a flexible formation. Asking honestly, I can't fit in my head how anyone can think otherwise.

 

[lemeuresnew]

19 hours ago, looping said:

would be very pleased if anyone explained why 4231 is not a flexible formation. Asking honestly, I can't fit in my head how anyone can think otherwise

because despite all the things you have so rightly stated, it doesnt change the fact if you try to change the central midfielders it leaves your whole defence open. i mean, how bad of an opposition team are you playing that you can play with only 1 holding midfielder? or attacking fullbacks, so any opposition with a winger and am position player can have a field day! 

i mentioned a 4-3-1-2 previously. this is because the natural team shape allows you to change player roles far more safely and create a massively different style of play. you can change pressing, tempo etc far more effectively.

in a 4-2-3-1 you limit yourself to pressing high up just because it is so top heavy. you limit yourself to a higher tempo, as on a low tempo you dont have the players in deep enough position to recycle play in a safe manner.

could go on, but you get the idea

[looping]

6 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

because despite all the things you have so rightly stated, it doesnt change the fact if you try to change the central midfielders it leaves your whole defence open. i mean, how bad of an opposition team are you playing that you can play with only 1 holding midfielder? or attacking fullbacks, so any opposition with a winger and am position player can have a field day! 

i mentioned a 4-3-1-2 previously. this is because the natural team shape allows you to change player roles far more safely and create a massively different style of play. you can change pressing, tempo etc far more effectively.

in a 4-2-3-1 you limit yourself to pressing high up just because it is so top heavy. you limit yourself to a higher tempo, as on a low tempo you dont have the players in deep enough position to recycle play in a safe manner.

could go on, but you get the idea

Unfortunately, I can't understand how a 4312 allows to create a massively different style of play. You have 4 players in central areas and only 2 wide (if any). I could go on but just think that whatever roles you change, wide play is only provided by fb and, I insist, whatever you do you can't change it. Severe limitation, isn't it?

Thanks anyway.

[herne79]

Re-read rashidi's post: "I really dislike the 4231, there is little room for mistakes when it comes to player selections".

Player selections.  Yes role selection is important (as it always is) but in the 4231 you are heavily dependant on your two central midfielders.  Make a bad player selection choice for the central midfielders in, say, a 442 narrow diamond and you might be able to get away with it because of the other players around them.  Cock it up in a 4231 and you're screwed.

So no, not much flexibility.

Anyway, back on topic please.

[lemeuresnew]

56 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Anyway, back on topic please.

is it not on topic? i think peoples misconceptions on changing roles in formations explains a lot of why people struggle like this

On 6/10/2017 at 13:09, DannyLad252 said:

All of this was with no PIs or OIs throughout the season, albeit to deal with a couple of threats in game.

 

On 6/11/2017 at 11:49, DannyLad252 said:

and the AssMan was responsible for the OIs.

OI's are pretty important, and would make a pretty big change. still no PI's? there is keeping it simple, and then there is almost hoping for the best. tell them what to do, youre in charge! what is your thinking of not using them, just to keep it simple? you could keep it simpler with them maybe?

[mbabbs]

Personally I think 4-2-3-1 is the easiest formation to play against. When I first started playing FM it was my preferred formation, but once I learned the game and read all the threads on tactics then I found other tactics that were more adaptable and stronger for particular match situations. When I see the opposition scout report, I always hope they are a 4-2-3-1 team.