Help with Bayern- too inconsistent

[jusinho9]

Hey.

I am in my first FM season and I am playing with Bayern. At first I thought I will not need a thread like this, but after my first ragequit it seems otherwise.

Let me first show the results:

Spoiler

...and a 2-3 vs Monaco at home in the 80th minute. Please note that I changed my tactics after the 1-4 in Napoli.

I am currently having two approaches:
 

Spoiler

 

 

and

Spoiler

 

 

 

In general I am quite satiesfied with the tactics. My team is scoring many goals, is dominating and the players are getting excellent ratings.

 

The problem is that on some games (the loses) my team plays absolute rubbish.  Those games were not such one where I had way more clear chances than the opponnent and the other team just got lucky.

The performance is worse all in all areas, thats why I am thinking that the cause isnt maybe tactical but somewhere else. Maybe my assistant manager is praising the team too much after the glorious victories? Can this make such an impact?

 

Lets take the defence, the one area which concerns me the most. I had to see some dreadful defending in those games (sometimes in other games too). Not in that sense, that I dont have enough players behind the ball, the defenders are acting very weird, sometimes its getting to a point where its only ridiculous.

The game where I played against Monaco: Bernardo Silva is running towards my goal, enough of my players are surrounded him, suddenly the CB who is in front of  B.Silva decides to go to the right, where nobody from the opponnent is and opens the path for Silva who can score. I was so furios that i closed the game. Unfortunatley, so i cant show you the scene.

 

Any help is appreciated.

[summatsupeer]

Lets start with roles & duties.  Your front 4 is the same in both tactics and I have no problems with them.

Now to bits I don't like.  In your more "attacking" tactic as your two holding midfielders, who need to balance your 4 attackers, you have a BBM (who roams from position) and a AP who will go looking for the ball.  It is completely open, no one will sit in front of your CBs, plus you already have a AP.  What is a second AP offering to the team?  That's 5 players with More Risky Passes, sometimes you need to play a few simple passes to create space before playing the through ball.  Add onto this you have WB-S and WB-A leaves your two BPD to defend a huge amount of space on there own.  If you play teams who can exploit that space your in trouble.

Your more "counter" tactic has a better balance with a DLP-D holding the midfield, offering a recycling option to move the ball around rather than looking for an assist pass straight away.  BBM is riskier than some would use for the second midfielder, can the covering players delay counter attacks enough for him to get back?   FB-A + FB-S will offer some width but also will keep some more cover and let the front 4 do there stuff.

I rarely use BPD, especially if there's a DLP for them to feed who can be more consistent with there distribution.

My advice would be, use your roles + duties from the "counter" tactic all the time.  Change mentality and team shape as required,  Control + Structured, Control + Fluid, Counter + Structured, Counter + Fluid... they all have there uses depending on how risky you want your team to play and how much you want players involved in transitions.

Instructions? I'd wipe the slate clean and just focus on how the roles + duties are combining, they give the style to the team, just add TI/PI's to refine it.

[jusinho9]

Thanks, @summatsupeer

 

What you say makes sense to me. The thought that a second playmaker might be too much, crossed my mind, too. I just thought if you have the right players, then you can pull it off. Combined with the higher defense line, i thought my main struggle would be counter attacks- which wasnt the case.

 

All of my three CB have BPD as their best position and I thought they fit with their role well in my tactics, especially in the more attacking one. If they have the quality to open up the game, why not use their abilities. - On the other hand, in the game I didnt see much off an influence of that anyway, neither positiver nor negative.

Its similiar with the BBM. I use them, because I have two players who fit very good in this role. Mabye I should switch back to 41221, which i played first. So just switching the AP in the offensive midfield to a DLP in the Def. Midfield.

Certainly, I will use a more "defensive" approach.

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^Okay, I wrote this way before I continued with the game.

-

I was even more angry than before - lost to 1-5 to Neapel at home.

I was so close to delete this game or even worse: using a download tactic.

 

The approach I was using was the more offensive one with a few tweaks: instead of an AP a DLP (d) and I switched the wingbacks to fullbacks (same roles). Its even worse than before. Although the counter approach isnt working either.

I prefer the more offensive approach, because thats what Bayern has to play normaly. To be honest, I think that my approach isnt far off what Bayern plays in real life. In the game against Neapel I have to admit that my slightly higher backline got exposed very badly. However, like I said before, I even concede in static situations too much, even with the more defensive approach. Getting outplayed by one-twos. Not clue what i could do about that.

Another point is that some ridicolous stuff is happining from time to time. My team is having a free kick 30 meter before the goal from the right side. ALL my players (beside the taker) are either in the box or standing right before it. The opponnent has a player 40 Meter before the goal. It was so crystal clear what gonna happen: the ball gets cleared and goes to their forward who had a clear path to my goal. I was cheering him to score but unluckily he was too stupid and Neuer saved. I am having three players (3!) to stay back all the time. Two of them are fullbacks, one of them is the DLP. Such things are turning my frustation level even higher.

 

I dont know what to do. Using a download tactic and then go from there, which I originally didnt want to do? Sticking with my approaches and trying to fix them? I have seen tactic way more offensive than mine that are working.

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Again, some time has past (not playing very much, though). Its getting kind of a diary now.

I switched back to the 41221 with a DM (d) instead of a AP (s). With less Instructions as you advised. Working okayish so far. Three games, Three wins. Looking better in defensive, opponnents are still getting too many chances, they not as clear as before though. I am worse at dominating the game now, I will see what I have to adjust.

 

The issue is that I want to explore this game on my own, on the other hand I seem to have not much patience and I am getting angry quickly.

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And again...playing against Kiev in the final groupgame...and getting absolutly outplayed. Even with a more counter, structured approach, they still have plenty of clear chances. My team is running like headless chickens and trying to chase them. With closing down sometimes. Its a mircale that its 2-2 at halftime and a miracle that its 3-3 after finaltime. Against Neapel it would have been a 1-6.

I dont know what else to do, have more than enough players behind the ball, but in those games I a) dont have any controll b) my defence is playing absolute garbage- regardless of the approach.

Against Kiev....wow.

Hm, maybe I really should quit the game.

 

[ilkork]

No mate, don't quit the game.
 

On 19/5/2017 at 00:38, jusinho9 said:

The game where I played against Monaco: Bernardo Silva is running towards my goal, enough of my players are surrounded him, suddenly the CB who is in front of  B.Silva decides to go to the right, where nobody from the opponnent is and opens the path for Silva who can score. I was so furios that i closed the game. Unfortunatley, so i cant show you the scene.

That's something that's happening to everybody. It annoys me as well.
It's the ME's fault. You can't do much really. Wrong understanding from the players, but it's not because of their attributes, it's the ME's fault.

On 26/5/2017 at 22:54, jusinho9 said:

All of my three CB have BPD as their best position and I thought they fit with their role well in my tactics, especially in the more attacking one. If they have the quality to open up the game, why not use their abilities. - On the other hand, in the game I didnt see much off an influence of that anyway, neither positiver nor negative.

You should never consider the game's "best role" advice. The game might say for a CD with Passing-12 that his best role is Ball-Playing Defender.
No. You are Bayern and if you want a Ball-Playing Defender, you should at least find someone with 14 in the following (besides the obvious ones for a Central Defender): Passing, First Touch, Vision, Decisions, Technique. Maybe 15 for Passing.
 

On 26/5/2017 at 22:54, jusinho9 said:

Its similiar with the BBM. I use them, because I have two players who fit very good in this role.

No mate, don't do that. Don't follow the game's advice regarding "best role for player X".
What you should do is to check your player's attributes and if he is capable to play as a DLP, play him as a DLP (or whatever you want him to in your tactics).
What you should consider though, is the game's "best position". You know, the ones with the "Natural", "Accomplished", "Competent", etc. These are the ones that matter more.
 

On 26/5/2017 at 22:54, jusinho9 said:

Another point is that some ridicolous stuff is happining from time to time. My team is having a free kick 30 meter before the goal from the right side.

Do you mean when you are attacking or defending a free kick?
Have you set up defensive positioning for free kicks, corners in the "Set-Pieces" panel?
 

On 26/5/2017 at 22:54, jusinho9 said:

I dont know what to do. Using a download tactic and then go from there, which I originally didnt want to do? Sticking with my approaches and trying to fix them? I have seen tactic way more offensive than mine that are working.

 

On 26/5/2017 at 22:54, jusinho9 said:

The issue is that I want to explore this game on my own, on the other hand I seem to have not much patience and I am getting angry quickly.

I am currently trying to setup a Man Utd save. It's been 2 weeks and I am still trying to find a good tactic. I am frustrated too cause I don't see the things I want to see in the ME.
So, what I've done was to buy the official in-game editor and run a test save with tactics familiarity levels to fluid from the beginning in pre-season. That way, I can setup different tactics and see what the best approach would be (ofc I won't use the in-game editor in my "official" Man Utd save).
I tried the FMT first, because it doesn't have tactic familiarity levels at all, but I didn't like it because it's flawed. It may not have tactic familiarity levels but it certainly has some kind of "chemistry", because I kept seeing the same mistakes a team does in pre-season. But those mistakes are gone by October, when your tactic is "accomplished".
You know what I'm talking about...



What else can I say? I don't know.
-Learn as much as you can for the game and the tactics (this forum has many guides).
-Picture in your mind how do you want your Bayern team to play and try to implement that in your tactics.
-Use this Bayern save for an in-game year to experiment with tactics and then start all over again with the best one you end up.
-Try the FMT version because it's free and experiment with tactics there for a while.
-Buy the official in-game editor (4.49€ I think) and experiment with tactics in the original FM version. Then start a save without the in-game editor.

[jusinho9]

6 hours ago, ilkork said:

You should never consider the game's "best role" advice. The game might say for a CD with Passing-12 that his best role is Ball-Playing Defender.
No. You are Bayern and if you want a Ball-Playing Defender, you should at least find someone with 14 in the following (besides the obvious ones for a Central Defender): Passing, First Touch, Vision, Decisions, Technique. Maybe 15 for Passing.

If Hummels and Boateng arent suitable and good enough for this role, then no one is.

Like I said I dont see much of an influence anyways. Certainly, I didnt see any major mistakes they made when building up the game.

 

6 hours ago, ilkork said:

No mate, don't do that. Don't follow the game's advice regarding "best role for player X".
What you should do is to check your player's attributes and if he is capable to play as a DLP, play him as a DLP (or whatever you want him to in your tactics).
What you should consider though, is the game's "best position". You know, the ones with the "Natural", "Accomplished", "Competent", etc. These are the ones that matter m

Ok.

6 hours ago, ilkork said:

Do you mean when you are attacking or defending a free kick?
Have you set up defensive positioning for free kicks, corners in the "Set-Pieces" panel?

Attacking...thats the point. No one was there to defend, although i set 3 players to "stay back all the time". Seems to be like a bug.

6 hours ago, ilkork said:

So, what I've done was to buy the official in-game editor and run a test save with tactics familiarity levels

Hehe, I bought that ingame editor before I started my save, just for that purpose (and to become unsackable).

 

8 hours ago, ilkork said:

-Learn as much as you can for the game and the tactics (this forum has many guides).
-Picture in your mind how do you want your Bayern team to play and try to implement that in your tactics.
-Use this Bayern save for an in-game year to experiment with tactics and then start all over again with the best one you end up.

 

Yes, I am doing that.

Its though for me, because I dont like to see my team struggle.