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Concerning tactical issue

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I've liked this version so far, and apart from being FM'ed oftenly ( 1 shot/1 goal for AI) - I have got 1000+ hours in to the game so far.. as usual with the previous ones.

The problem is, with this years version it is all about setting a narrow tactic, then you will dominate most of the matches (having a lot of possession) - then there is a narrow tactic coupled with a strikerless, which will even dominate more.. i'm not overly saying you can't dominate tactics with wingers but I haven't really dominated that much in a tactic containing wingers compared to narrow ones after trying so many tactics and combinations, why this? I think the problem must be wingers and wide midfielders staying too wide... I also find that CM's will even stay too close to each other most of the time, not sure why.

Normally in 4-4-2 it should look like this

-----------W-------CM-------CM------W-----------

but it looks like this

--W----------------CM---CM-----------------W--

A big gap between the CMs and Wingers and thus an opposition with narrow tactic will dominate and retain the ball for a lot because of that.

This pic - Leeds united playing a narrow 4-1-3-2 and Crystal playing 4-4-2 --- Just look at Zaha and Poulsen, that is hell of a big gap.. 

0ImLbpB.png

 

That is it then, I just wish this would be fixed in FM 18, I won't go far to say it is gamebreaking issue, however it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

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Wells, this is a huge issue for me too, in terms of the realism of the game. It ruins the playability of FM17, for me at least, and you've illustrated it very well.

I sincerely hope this is addressed for FM18 as I miss my Football Manager sessions, having uninstalled the game because of this very problem. :(

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i would want my wingers staying out wide like that personally. they are wingers not inside right or lefts

cant say i have found this problem myself. when a midfield pair do stick together more than i like it usually means they are both on defensive holding roles. once i set one to support i notice them spread out more both horizantally and vertically

definitely not a game breaker in my opinion. sure it could be better, but it is what it is 

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Is this affecting you mostly from a defensive point of view? If it is, why not get your wingers to man mark opposition players from a central position? I know this is a different scenario, but I created a tactic for my team which I'm currently using and it seemed to be strong from all points except when the opposition attack with 2 strikers. I am using 2 wing backs and one central defender with 2 half backs sitting in front of the defender. My problem was that the wing backs were leaving huge gaps when we were defending and the opposition would exploit these gaps allowing one striker to hit the ball across to the other striker who could slot the ball in easily. This is where I decided to have my wing backs man mark and mark tightly on those strikers and it pulls them in and leaves much less of a gap when we're defending.

Worth a try, if it doesn't work then I've no idea :D 

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7 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

i would want my wingers staying out wide like that personally. they are wingers not inside right or lefts

They're Sunday league tactics, In the OP's image what threat are the wide players defending against?

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Just a question to the OP, where you using the 442 or was the AI? Cos if it was the AI you should send in the saved match and the pkm because its a poorly designed 442 that the AI should not be using. Most times when I have faced the AI playing a 442 these have all be well designed 442s that are able to get through each transition effectively. In the first image you can see how much support the midfielders are providing during the midfield consolidation phase of the transition, in the second image you see that the when the midfield penetration phase has started, you can see good off the ball movement wide midfielders tuck inside to give support while the striker goes wide to draw out the defence, note how the right side starts getting space with the movement happening on the left side.

Now if that 442 was used by the AI, it was using the wrong shape,  and a combination of bad roles and duties, so this definitely is a poor AI tactic that has to be reported.

 

Arse1.jpg

Arse2.jpg

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Rashidi, if there's now supposed to be a very specific magic combination or a corridor of shapes and duties for a 4-4-2 to at all work somewhat "decently", whatever unintuitive (and officially unannounced, as usual) overhauls  SI made to things in between the last few iterations has to be duly questioned right here, right there. Not only because AI obviously had a couple issues with duty/role selection before and if leaked research guidelines are to go by, AI largely picks/used to pick philosophy, er, shape, er, fluidity based on a specific attribute given in the db (which may or may not be the case). The only sensibly reason for the opening shot to have this huge a gap in the centre of the park was if one of the CMs was on defend (sitting back,) and one on attack (pushed up, getting caught upfield). We had a big thread on this last year, and providing a snapshot of a specific phase during any transition from attack to defense or vice versa it was apparent you could make things look like in all kinds of ways. Videos showed things more clearly.

That Palace sit back in the first shot with their entire team highlights that this was a completely different passage of play. Yours shows the "natural" progression of a ball being played into an opposition half, with the shape looking perfectly right in the first shot, almost as if straight after kick-off. The shot in the opening post seems taken shortly after an interception and a clearance to the Palace forwards. Palace pretty much still sitting all in their own half seems to hint that was the case, so not very much a "natural" transition much, but guys getting caught upfield and just having started to defend, not attack. It's hard to tell from screenshot what is going on though, not least of which because the forwards are miles apart too. :)

For what is worth, you can "schoolboy" any AI playing 4-4-2 in some way or other -- if you wanted to. It's happening in AI vs AI matches too. I wouldn't say it's technically "broken" (clearly intended to do what it was supposed to do), but without some adjustments, it is indeed one of the more "challenging" formations on 2017, which wasn't the case on 2016 and before. But that's been covered a couple times before. Wrote some feedback piece called "decline of the 4-4-2" upon release myself. It's largely because it works none like it does in real football (for most teams who use it, either way). This largely all feeds into how FM 2017 plays out. There's a reason why exploiters have fun flooding the centre of the pitch. The only thing that then sensibly counters that to an extent is an AI happening to pick a formation that packs the middle some.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Just a question to the OP, where you using the 442 or was the AI? Cos if it was the AI you should send in the saved match and the pkm because its a poorly designed 442 that the AI should not be using. Most times when I have faced the AI playing a 442 these have all be well designed 442s that are able to get through each transition effectively. In the first image you can see how much support the midfielders are providing during the midfield consolidation phase of the transition, in the second image you see that the when the midfield penetration phase has started, you can see good off the ball movement wide midfielders tuck inside to give support while the striker goes wide to draw out the defence, note how the right side starts getting space with the movement happening on the left side.

Now if that 442 was used by the AI, it was using the wrong shape,  and a combination of bad roles and duties, so this definitely is a poor AI tactic that has to be reported.

 

Arse1.jpg

Arse2.jpg

Where's the yellow DR going?

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Guest El Payaso

To be fair I didn't find defending of the middle area of the pitch considerably better in for example FM 2016 even though the wide players did sit more narrow. I think that equally bad issue is the fact how badly the midfield duo or trio work as an unit. If there is a triangle defending the middle (for example 4-5-1) they still aren't doing a decent job and for example a DM in the current FM seems to be quite useless. They never seem to organize themselves well and by that there's always good amount of space for the attacking side to pass the ball around. This again is a long lasting issue and I think that players like Wanyama and Kante are highly trailing behind from how they work in real life. 

@Barside maybe it's that 'wrongly timed closing down issue' on number 23 or too little sleep last night and a naptime on the pitch?

@Rashidi We can all quite clearly also see the horrors of the ME on your videos especially now as you show the games on comprehensive. I don't get why you keep praising scenarios that should never happen but it's not exactly my problem. 

stats.thumb.jpg.eb9f1c3ce0b38d2fee4c7103667c28b7.jpg

This was against a deep 4-2-3-1 where the opposition had two DMs 'protecting' the defensive line. And see how involved my two more advanced midfielders and the lone forward were. That is at least twice the amount of involvement than they should be having. This is also without any instructions to pass the ball short and retain possession. It's kinda clear story about those two DMs: they are not protecting the line and making it hard for us to for example reach the centre forward. 

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47 minutes ago, Barside said:

Where's the opposition the DR going?

opposition is Arsenal, in fact in this game I only narrowly beat the AI's 442. I had a lot of trouble against their fluidity.

 

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

That Palace sit back in the first shot with their entire team highlights that this was a completely different passage of play for what it's worth. Yours shows the "natural" progression of a ball being played into an opposition half, with the shape looking perfectly right in the first shot, almost as if straight after kick-off. The shot in the opening post seems taken shortly after an interception and a clearance to the Palace forwards. Palace pretty much still sitting all in their own half seems to hint that was the case, so not very much a "natural" transition much, but guys getting caught upfield. The team lining up 4-4-2 in yours is then attacking, not defending. It's hard to tell from screenshot what is going on though, not least of which because the forwards are miles apart too. :)

Totally agree we need to see a lot of screenshots from various points in a game to determine if there is a transition failure caused by poor tactical design or poor choices. In the first 2 screenshots near the 60th min, you will see how they open up space on the right flank by attacking me down there with a pass into space that their right winger was able to jump on. In the next 2 screenshots note how they win the ball in the middle of an interception and then they counter pressed us as my team was so out of shape. In both pairs I noted how tough this 442 was to play against. Cant really write much, got a crying son on me lap while I type this.

Arse3.jpg

Arse4.jpg

Arse5.jpg

Arse7.jpg

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Just a question to the OP, where you using the 442 or was the AI? Cos if it was the AI you should send in the saved match and the pkm because its a poorly designed 442 that the AI should not be using. Most times when I have faced the AI playing a 442 these have all be well designed 442s that are able to get through each transition effectively. In the first image you can see how much support the midfielders are providing during the midfield consolidation phase of the transition, in the second image you see that the when the midfield penetration phase has started, you can see good off the ball movement wide midfielders tuck inside to give support while the striker goes wide to draw out the defence, note how the right side starts getting space with the movement happening on the left side.

Now if that 442 was used by the AI, it was using the wrong shape,  and a combination of bad roles and duties, so this definitely is a poor AI tactic that has to be reported.

 

Arse1.jpg

Arse2.jpg

Rashid's screenshots do potentially highlight the general issue with the defending. there are two DMs for yellow yet both Arsenal strikers appear to have easily broken through the defensive screen they should be providing.

The right side DM has not moved at all which has allowed Berahino to move into the space vacated by the cray DR, & the left DM has waved through the other striker for an simply run between the CB's who are comically far apart  due to the DL shifting inside once the heads to the other side. Of course all these poor decisions can & do happen irl but not with the regularity that they do in FM & for me this is down to having too few TI/PI for the defensive side of tactics, too much is reliant on SI's interpretation of what a player does in the defensive phase. 

 

Edit: Added post I was referring to keep context on point.

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2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

opposition is Arsenal, in fact in this game I only narrowly beat the AI's 442. I had a lot of trouble against their fluidity.

I knew I'd phrased that poorly & have changed it to team colour, still wondering why he's charged up field.

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how is this second picture good defensive shape? the right winger on red team is way too wide as well as full back behind him

 

bad good shape.jpg

Edited by MBarbaric

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Arsenal are in possession & have transitioned into attacked so no reason for the MR to come inside unless he's a playmaker looking to take control of the ball, tbh neither show how the 4-4-2 of Arsenal has worked well in defence as they are also in possession in the first image.

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6 minutes ago, Barside said:

too much is reliant on SI's ever changing officially unannounced interpretation of what  shape/philosophy, er fluidity is specifically meant to do.


Fixed that. :D Just joking. Yup, the defensive side of things is pretty much hard-coded affair in comparison. Compared to the attacking phase of play, the defensive phase has been undercooked. It's mostly influenced indirectly (i.e. guys not pushing up quickly and far won't be caught out of position much, a team playing narrower won't take as much time to narrow upon defending, etc.).

The thing is naturally though, if that were tweakably some more, if the AI isn't competitive on that, will open all kinds of holes/advantages too.

Edited by Svenc

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7 minutes ago, Barside said:

Arsenal are in possession & have transitioned into attacked so no reason for the MR to come inside unless he's a playmaker looking to take control of the ball, tbh neither show how the 4-4-2 of Arsenal has worked well in defence as they are also in possession in the first image.

ah, ok, i thought we were talking about 442 in defence :D 

attacking shape was never an issue (at least not compared to defence) and the OP was complaining about 442 defending...

Edited by MBarbaric

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10 minutes ago, Barside said:

I knew I'd phrased that poorly & have changed it to team colour, still wondering why he's charged up field.

high OTB + WB on attack

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Guest El Payaso
1 minute ago, Rashidi said:

high OTB + WB on attack

Dani Alves and Victor Moses defend like that?

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I am not looking at how they do defensively, the screenshots here show that on balance a 442 can be made very effective, they dominated me for large periods and we only beat them with goals off counters.

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1 minute ago, Rashidi said:

high OTB + WB on attack

I'd potentially be all over that as questionable behaviour.

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Same thing happens say when you have a WB(A) in a 442 with an inside cutting supporting WM in front of him or a WP inside cutting, sitting narrow. You need to playing on certain mentalities to trigger that kind of risky behaviour.

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There's taking a risk & then there's shooting yourself in the foot. :D

Of course still images only tell a very limited amount about what's going.

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Guest El Payaso
4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Same thing happens say when you have a WB(A) in a 442 with an inside cutting supporting WM in front of him or a WP inside cutting, sitting narrow. You need to playing on certain mentalities to trigger that kind of risky behaviour.

So risky (or mindless) behavior is what we should be expecting when we are not in possession. That kind of movement would make sense if your teams was in possession but as you can see it's Arsenal that is in possession and there is no sense at all in the movement of that WB. Even a ten year-old wouldn't make that kind of movement.

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I won't say that defending is perfect on FM, I'd go as far as to say that it needs to be improved a lot in FM18. The challenge is this. Each time I go around saying we need to tighten it up, we get a whole group of people who find that its impossible to score. It happens each version, most notably in FM12, then again in FM15. Its a double edged sword. We tighten up defending, and then the next we see happening is people start struggling trying to break things down. Then when we tell people they need to find the perfect mix of instructions, PIs and attributes, that's when people will throw their hands up.

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Just now, El Payaso said:

So risky (or mindless) behavior is what we should be expecting when we are not in possession. That kind of movement would make sense if your teams was in possession but as you can see it's Arsenal that is in possession and there is no sense at all in the movement of that WB. 

In my system its intentional...I designed it intentionally to create that kind of risk. 

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5 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I won't say that defending is perfect on FM, I'd go as far as to say that it needs to be improved a lot in FM18. The challenge is this. Each time I go around saying we need to tighten it up, we get a whole group of people who find that its impossible to score. It happens each version, most notably in FM12, then again in FM15. Its a double edged sword. We tighten up defending, and then the next we see happening is people start struggling trying to break things down. Then when we tell people they need to find the perfect mix of instructions, PIs and attributes, that's when people will throw their hands up.

As I gave up my mod badge & no longer have to keep those hands from waving too much I have no problem with this happening, the ME is defensively poor when compared to attacking play to the point that winning no longer feels like an achievement & for me that means the enjoyment is close to gone.

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1 minute ago, El Payaso said:

So risky (or mindless) behavior is what we should be expecting when we are not in possession. That kind of movement would make sense if your teams was in possession but as you can see it's Arsenal that is in possession and there is no sense at all in the movement of that WB. 

You would need to see the whole sequence for it to make sense

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3 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I won't say that defending is perfect on FM, I'd go as far as to say that it needs to be improved a lot in FM18. The challenge is this. Each time I go around saying we need to tighten it up, we get a whole group of people who find that its impossible to score. It happens each version, most notably in FM12, then again in FM15. Its a double edged sword. We tighten up defending, and then the next we see happening is people start struggling trying to break things down. Then when we tell people they need to find the perfect mix of instructions, PIs and attributes, that's when people will throw their hands up.

well it is football manager so defensive shape is big part of football and it should be represented in the game.

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2 minutes ago, Barside said:

As I gave up my mod badge & no longer have to keep those hands from waving too much I have no problem with this.

I have every intention of pointing defensive flaws in the next me, but the downside of that will make the next version harder to play, so if people struggle to win, and if you find people like Barside and El Payoso smoking teams away, then :-) This is getting hard, my son wants me to FM instead of typing'

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Guest El Payaso
2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I won't say that defending is perfect on FM, I'd go as far as to say that it needs to be improved a lot in FM18. The challenge is this. Each time I go around saying we need to tighten it up, we get a whole group of people who find that its impossible to score. It happens each version, most notably in FM12, then again in FM15. Its a double edged sword. We tighten up defending, and then the next we see happening is people start struggling trying to break things down. Then when we tell people they need to find the perfect mix of instructions, PIs and attributes, that's when people will throw their hands up.

Personally I haven't found any issues with lack of goals on either of those versions. This for example was from FM 2015:

54abe7b271e4e.jpg

Okay, I always like to play it quite defensively but no problems for Barcelona or Real Madrid or even Atletico to find the net. 

The attacking play isn't that good either on FM and hasn't been for many years but it's been improved for this version considerably especially by bringing back long range goals that basically really rarely happened for many versions. If vision (the game is still really badly lacking the old time creativity that for example Cesc Fabregas is providing all the time) and rushing forward in numbers would get some kind of better presentation in the ME then of course it would be possible to also improve the defending. 

At the moment though both seeing the matches and looking at the stats shows that defending is not anywhere near the level that it should be.

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5 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I have every intention of pointing defensive flaws in the next me, but the downside of that will make the next version harder to play, so if people struggle to win, and if you find people like Barside and El Payoso smoking teams away, then :-) This is getting hard, my son wants me to FM instead of typing'

If one end of the scale are plug, play, forget players who want to win with ease at all levels then admittedly I am from the extreme other side of the scale but while making it a tougher tactical challenge if done correctly improving defensive behaviour can be a benefit for those with a less tactical focus on their gameplay.

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TBF FM15 was the easiest by far, I gave up attempts in making the engine harder to play against.

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20 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I am not looking at how they do defensively, the screenshots here show that on balance a 442 can be made very effective, they dominated me for large periods and we only beat them with goals off counters.

was your team comparable quality to Arse? I find it difficult to beliver human wouldn't find a way to dominate ai 442 by overloading the center. in offense, 442 does as good as any other formation, but the defensive phase is poor.

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18 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I won't say that defending is perfect on FM, I'd go as far as to say that it needs to be improved a lot in FM18. The challenge is this. Each time I go around saying we need to tighten it up, we get a whole group of people who find that its impossible to score. It happens each version, most notably in FM12, then again in FM15. Its a double edged sword. We tighten up defending, and then the next we see happening is people start struggling trying to break things down. Then when we tell people they need to find the perfect mix of instructions, PIs and attributes, that's when people will throw their hands up.

Correct me if I read this the wrong way, but if you said that FM 12 and 15 had better defence with goals being more difficult to score, then I'm...confused. In my opinion those two FMs have been some of the easiest to exploit by just throwing players forward and overloading the AI in the final third, without being punished properly for leaving ocean of space behind you.

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In fact I found the AI 442 hard to play against, over team at this point was comparable. My left flank has probably got the best defensive fullback in England we have a beast of a dm in front of him. I still found their 442 hard to penetrate, the only way I could do it was by drawing them in and attacking them down the flank they had committed players to which was my right flank, and one other thing I noticed that I failed to mention, it was changing mentality/shape and duties regularly in the game which made it even harder for me to nail them down,

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15 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

Correct me if I read this the wrong way, but if you said that FM 12 and 15 had better defence with goals being more difficult to score, then I'm...confused. In my opinion those two FMs have been some of the easiest to exploit by just throwing players forward and overloading the AI in the final third, without being punished properly for leaving ocean of space behind you.

I was saying that FM has progressively gotten easier to score against. With 12 -15 being the easiest. My point is this:

 

Is the real issue, the AI can't defend, which I know it can with a 442.

Or is the real issue the human managers can't defend? Basically if we make it easier for human managers to defend, then we are also going to make the AI harder to defeat

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Guest El Payaso
31 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You would need to see the whole sequence for it to make sense

I don't see a scenario possible where it would make sense for the wing back to leave his position exposed. Feel free to upload the sequence though and explain the logic behind it. 

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Its on nearly every video of Gloucester city, its our strategy to go down the right

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Guest El Payaso
Just now, Rashidi said:

Its on nearly every video of Gloucester city, its our strategy to go down the right

Yes going down the right but how does that apply to scenarios where your team is not in possession? Juventus and Chelsea use wing backs heavily IRL but in defensive phase those wingbacks are not leaving their position exposed. It's okay to aggressively bomb forward when in possession but when defending that makes no sense at all.

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1 hour ago, Barside said:

If one end of the scale are plug, play, forget players who want to win with ease at all levels then admittedly I am from the extreme other side of the scale but while making it a tougher tactical challenge if done correctly improving defensive behaviour can be a benefit for those with a less tactical focus on their gameplay.


I'm leaning more on that more challenging side also (any newbie sticking to entry guides could outperform what Bayern do AI managed taking them over on 2016, or City 2017 and several more imo), though I'm suspicious when it gets to a point that there may be a very narrow corridor for getting "bog-standard" formations like 4-4-2 working some, same as I'm suspicious when SI tweak settings "under the hood" without documenting them themselves. You're lucky then to find a note in the tactics forums for instance how this TI and that has seen a change after all the guys come fresh out of Beta, and that's it. There still needs to be a balance overall, as football isn't decided purely on tactics. I always stress test for fun what superior individual quality can still do if you completely isolate class attacking players so that they would be completely on their own in the final third. Tactics are one part of football management, and not every manager is reknown for his tactical masterstroke, ask 'arry. In general balance, I agree with The Hand Of God's (THOG) assertion here:

Quote

There are advantages to be gained by playing the game tactically, but it's now more a question of shifting probabilities marginally in your favour, not finding a formula to decisively beat the computer. And that's how it should be. In real life, tactics are tertiary to player ability and motivation.



In other words, a decent plan can help in keeping the worst of sides up, and stage individual up-sets, but better sides long-term win more matches, unless they're not terribly mismanaged in general. That's assuming that all managers were roughly level. Which naturally tends to happen in competitive football -- unlike on FM, you won't find anybody making basic mistakes such as pushing every single player boxside for the 90 minutes, opening a gap of 50 yards between defense and attack to run through (at its most drastic). They key on improving this overall / getting the balance for everybody is in my opinion the assistants. I wouldn't mind if they optionally spoon-fed / simplify / take over everything. Then again, I've never seen AI "reacting" to getting through balled to death either when it is obvious it's happening all throughout a match due to inherent aggressiveness of some AI managers, so also rather "basic" things no AI responds much to, which currently would involve any assistant.

What is also forgotten is that there's individual matches (i.e. guys always find it hard to score so it all gets toned down again), and then there's the long-term. Implementing a roughly style and then building the side for it, with squad building being another AI issue. I find it surprising that Rash finds the AI's 4-4-2 tough to penetrate. It's the formation where lower league opposition in AI vs AI matches drag opposition from tiers above all over the pitch simply by central overloads so easily doable on 2017. Go 4-2-3-1 narrow (a standard formation AI picks also), etc. and they're not going to cope, with the CBs forced to step up all throughout the match. Unless he wouldn't "exploit" that. :) Due to the weakening of central spaces as of FM 2017 I've seen AI vs AI matches were even a 3 central midfield was dragged everywhere against such.

Edited by Svenc

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20 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Yes going down the right but how does that apply to scenarios where your team is not in possession? Juventus and Chelsea use wing backs heavily IRL but in defensive phase those wingbacks are not leaving their position exposed. It's okay to aggressively bomb forward when in possession but when defending that makes no sense at all.

Ah I see you need to see our defensive transitions, that's easy to show. Will do that a bit later.

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32 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Ah I see you need to see our defensive transitions, that's easy to show. Will do that a bit later.

Exploiting the Duracell/Energizer bunny ability of wing backs to your advantage?

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45 minutes ago, Barside said:

Exploiting the Duracell/Energizer bunny ability of wing backs to your advantage?

 Not all bunnys are created equal :-)

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Guest El Payaso

@Rashidi isn't something like Joe Hanks performing well in top level a good example that to perform in middle of the park is too easy? Player like him would never perform in real football. 

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5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Just a question to the OP, where you using the 442 or was the AI? Now if that 442 was used by the AI, it was using the wrong shape,  and a combination of bad roles and duties, so this definitely is a poor AI tactic that has to be reported.

It was AI using 4-4-2.. actually they changed to 4-4-1-1 in the late stages, so that's why there is only one striker upfront and no.7 playing as AMC.

4 hours ago, Svenc said:

 It's hard to tell from screenshot what is going on though, not least of which because the forwards are miles apart too. :)
 

I don't have access to FM atm but one of my defenders just played a long ball, so F9 (Sornoza) was running to the ball and so one of the CM for palace was marking him as you can see only the no.18 from Palace is left in the CM strata.. so I guess it was more of CM attack and CM defend.

I was using a structured team shape and the striker was AF, that's why they are miles apart, can't tell it for the Palace case, as I don't know what they used.

Edited by Wells

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Actually this is timely, my next match is against Arsenal again...hmm I shall do a version of my show without talking about where we are so I don't add any spoilers, which might be a bit of a challenge. Their 442 defends quite well. So lets see how my energiser battery does against the team. And @El Payaso he doesn't out perform, he just happens to be around players who do a good job of covering his weakness. For example, I can never play him as a playmaker, he always loses the ball on the dribble. His PIs focus on maximising an average player, so he just keeps the ball ticking around. His corner kicking is below average, so we pass short. I will be keen on doing my next match against Arsenal in iso later, cos it would be good to see how their 442 defends against our system. 

Arsenal play on counter/flexible, then go standard fluid when they want goals and then if they are behind, they sometimes push up control fluid with role and duty changes. And once they take the lead they drop to structured with a mentality change too. 

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Guest El Payaso

@Rashidi I have no doubts that you have a system that makes it easy for him but basically a League 1 level player shouldn't be successful in any role on that level. 

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Ah but his passing and vision are 14, while the rest are 12. His passing and vision rank him higher than the league average. The best average for vision among midfielders is 13 and he is at 14. In most other areas he is 12. I wouldn't rank him as a L1 player but as a championship player now, yes but enough about him, this thread is about the effectiveness of the AI 442 defence...I almost\ regret the whole Joe Hanks storyline.

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